EV Digest 5425
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Exploding batteries in an E-8 (yikes!)
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Eagle Picher Horizon 1250 battery
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: Hybrid legalities
by "Erik G. Burrows" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Hybrid legalities
by "Erik G. Burrows" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Motor Blowers - do you use them? how?
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Hi There! (Introduction)
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Electric Race Car Article
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: EV Charging station
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Motor Blowers - do you use them? how?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) article: Modec Electric Van Now on the Road
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV Charging station (sizing)
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV Charging station (sizing)
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Exploding batteries in an E-8 (yikes!)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: Electric Race Car Article
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Regs, 0.3
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Electric Race Car Article
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: Monster Garage
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Thanks for your NEDRA support
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Motor Blowers - do you use them? how?
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: What is it with CVTs?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: EV Charging station (sizing)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: EV Charging station (sizing)
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: What is it with CVTs?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: What is it with CVTs?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: What is it with CVTs?
by Ray Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: EV Charging station (sizing)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: EV Charging station
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
That's almost always caused by an internal interconnect coming loose,
sparking and exploding the H2/O2 above the acid. If you take that
battery apart I bet you'll find one or more interconnects corroded
(almost) in two and one interconnect burned apart.
Check the blown-up battery with a loaded voltmeter, say, a lamp and a
DVM. It'll most likely check out with 0 volts. If you don't load the
thing a little, if the interconnect stub is still in the acid, it'll
generate normal voltage.
John
On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 16:52:22 -0400 (EDT), [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
>I connect the jumpers to the E-8 positive terminal. As soon as I touch it to
>the positve lead of the battery pack *BANG* there was an explosion as loud as a
>shotgun blast. The first battery in the string (the one that the negative
>jumper cable was connected to) exploded. Oddly enough, it was the battery
>farthest from the one I had just made the connection to.
>
>Anyway it blew off it's caps and almost blew off the top of the battery. There
>is a 10" semicircular crack on the top. Oh yeah, I managed to get sprayed by
>battery acid. I was wearing safty glasses, so a quick shower and I'm fine, but
>What the @#$%^&* happend?
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 4/28/06 3:50:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> ubj: Re: Eagle Picher Horizon 1250 battery
> Date:4/28/06 3:50:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-to:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> To:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Received from Internet:
>
>
>
> I received 1 battery today to test from Texas.It is a battery claiming to
> put
> out 1250 amps at 8 volts.I used the same tester and test I use to test
> hawkers and the Inspira JCI battery as well as many different nicads.After 3
> cycles
> and with the battery at 90F the inital hit got to 714 amps and 7.75 volts
> after 8 seconds the amps locked out at 540 at 6.21 volts. This was a battery
>
> picked out of there stock for me to test.(There Best One)This battery was
> made in
> CHINA and weighs 18.1lbs.The small 13ah hawker will out perform this battery
> at
> hi power draws.It would be a waste of money to use as a ev drag race
> battery.I will continue to cycle this battery to 15 cycles and will report
> the
> findings. Dennis Berube
>
As with all AGM batteries I will not expect to see max power until at least
10 cycles,and I would never bring batteries to the track in a FRESH
condition,so we will see where this agm goes after a few days. D Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the comments! I'll definitely look into the differences
between a "used" convert and trying to retitle it as "new".
I'd love to run the "easier to ask for forgiveness than for
permission" angle, but if I dump $20k into the conversion, I'd hate to
see it rot in the driveway if I can't get it legal.
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > Well there might be some issues in claiming tax incentives...
>
> The federal credits require that it be a new vehicle, not a used one.
> You can deal with this if necessary by re-titling your vehicle as "new"
> (like U.S. Electricar retitling my Renault LeCar as a "Lectric
> Leopard").
>
> > As far as I know the only fuel source currently forbidden to home
> > converters is Propane (that's nation wide).
>
> That's interesting. I hadn't heard that. Propane is easy and available
> to use for a motor vehicle fuel (widely used in industrial vehicles).
> Why would there be a law banning it for on-road use?
>
> > I think there is one state (Minnisota?) that requires converters take a
> > class or be licensed or something.
>
> Not Minnesota; I think it's Kansas.
>
> > Other than that, knock yourself out. I'd reccomend keeping detailed
> > records, photos, maintain receipts, etc. for when you go to register
> > the vehicle.
>
> Also, keep in mind that it is easier to ask for forgiveness than for
> permission. If you ask first, the bureaucrats and lawyers will almost
> certainly say "no". Built it first. THEN do whatever you have to do to
> get it licensed! :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Peter, that link helped a lot on the federal side.
> >> As far as I know the only fuel source currently forbidden to home
> >> converters is Propane (that's nation wide).
>
> Well it turns out I was wrong. It's not just Propane it's ANY alternative
> fuel. However, I think it only applies to converting unleaded fuel
> engines to run on other fuels. It might not apply to really old vehicles
> (I.e. before there were any emmissions standards).
>
> For more info:
> http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/afv/conversion101.html
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> I used a surplus BLDC Amdek (sp?) blower of the
> "vacuum cleaner
> blower" design. It is designed for 120vac but like
> many SSPSs, the
> first component on the input is a bridge rectifier
> so it runs just
> fine on DC. Mine runs at reduced speed on 72 volts
John,
That is Ametek, the company I work (slave) for.
That's probably a 5.7" Windjammer designed for 120Vac,
but will work fine with DC input since it has a diode
bridge up front. You most likely have an archaic
blower designed in the early 90's, but hey, it still
works.
I use one pulled out of the dumpster at work to blow
up air beds and Wally-world swimming pools when we go
to the beach (no sharks in the blow up pool :-).
We have a large range of these blowers that operate on
240Vac and some of my low voltage DC versions that
work on 12Vdc to 48Vdc. I installed a couple of 24Vdc
blowers on my TEVan for motor cooling and it worked
very well (Maybe it's still working for Nick Austin in
CA, it did when I sold it).
I think blowers like this controlled from an
independent source work much better than fans on motor
shafts (how do you continue to cool the DC motor at a
stop light?, apply power to your blower!) Blowers can
also push more CFM at higher pressures, so you can
duct the air by the brushes and keep the critical
parts cool. Maybe one of these days I'll get
something Ryan can sell to EV'rs at a reasonable
price.
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I kept the transmission because I thought it was in good condition,
maybe it is, but I am regretting it. It is quiet in 4th but 2nd and 3rd
whine and that is where I spend most my time. 2 smaller motors and a
series parallel switch looks now like a better soulution but I can't
atest to it. I am just really surprized how noisey the other parts of a
ca are after you remove the ICE and exhaust system.
I love the morris minor, my autoshop teacher had a morris minor PU.
If you don't go AC a zilla 1k, twin 6.7's or 8" and the sw202 contactors
may be the way to go.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is an interesting electric race car article in Race Car Engineering
magazine. While most active list members would find a lot of the info
redundant,
the twin DC motor and drive setup appeared very unique and well engineered.
Unfortunately the below link doesn't let a person read the entire article
without subscribing.
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/content/feature_04.htm
Lawson Huntley
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have 480 3phase at work, man I would like to plug into that! but at
work I am there long enough to top off completely, it is at home I need
to speed things up.
I like what was said about using forklift packs, what voltages do they
come in. better than submarine batteries,I had thought of that too,
because it is part of the local economy. available, serviceable, etc.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 18:33:39 -0700 (PDT), Rod Hower
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> I used a surplus BLDC Amdek (sp?) blower of the
>> "vacuum cleaner
>> blower" design. It is designed for 120vac but like
>> many SSPSs, the
>> first component on the input is a bridge rectifier
>> so it runs just
>> fine on DC. Mine runs at reduced speed on 72 volts
>
>John,
>That is Ametek, the company I work (slave) for.
>That's probably a 5.7" Windjammer designed for 120Vac,
>but will work fine with DC input since it has a diode
>bridge up front. You most likely have an archaic
>blower designed in the early 90's, but hey, it still
>works.
Yes, as a matter of fact it is a WindJammer. Been meaning to write
you to see if you had a schematic available :-) I'd like to tinker
with it to see if I could get full speed at 72 volts.
I'm guessing that mine is 90s vintage. I'm also guessing that it
might have been used on the vacuum loops of a 9 track tape drive.
Does Ametek still make something like this?
Mine looks somewhat like this one:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2006042821051152&item=16-1246&catname=
This type of blower usually contains a universal motor and so should
work fine on DC.
I got mine from Surplus Center but they're apparently out of the BLDC
version.
>I use one pulled out of the dumpster at work to blow
>up air beds and Wally-world swimming pools when we go
>to the beach (no sharks in the blow up pool :-).
>We have a large range of these blowers that operate on
>240Vac and some of my low voltage DC versions that
>work on 12Vdc to 48Vdc. I installed a couple of 24Vdc
>blowers on my TEVan for motor cooling and it worked
>very well (Maybe it's still working for Nick Austin in
>CA, it did when I sold it).
>I think blowers like this controlled from an
>independent source work much better than fans on motor
>shafts (how do you continue to cool the DC motor at a
>stop light?, apply power to your blower!) Blowers can
>also push more CFM at higher pressures, so you can
>duct the air by the brushes and keep the critical
>parts cool. Maybe one of these days I'll get
>something Ryan can sell to EV'rs at a reasonable
>price.
>Rod
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Unfortunately only available in England:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/04/modec_electric.php
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ok, lets assume for the dump charge scenario we want to go with a
professional and safe setup.
lets also asume for the sake of calculation that a person would want or
need 10 miles of "boost" .
Given 300Wh/mile that is 3kwh
if we compress that to 10 min it is only 18kw, that is 75 amps @
240Volt. a pfc50 can handle this?( or is that only to a lower packV)
>From a consumers viewpoint 10 min is actually a lot, enought that i
would classify it as fast chargeing not dump chargeing.
I am just trying to be realistic for the NON-EV people trained in the
art of 3 min pumping.
So trying for 5min makes that 150Amps
Since we would want to also either minimize grid draw to keep costs down
it seems like we would either need a 480V 3 phase hookup to pull about
60Amps(reasonable) at 480 3Phase to push 150A 240V into a pack
requireing a 1/0 charge port(Anderson SB175)
or a dump pack of 4-6 48V forklift batteries and a boost version of the
charger
How do we prevent someone from dump chargeing into an almost full pack
with the wrong charger setting, ie 300V charger setting and 244V pack
(opps, i changed the pack since last charged at this station....)
Measure voltage prior to activating charger and monitor current and rate
of voltage change to estimate SOC?
ie
connect
press start
charger measures voltage
charger applies 10amp load and measures voltage again
SOC is estimated and decision to charge is made (will this work?)
current limit is imposed during charge and accumulated estimate of SOC
is updated
System shuts down when 80% SOC is estimated or timer runs ourt,
whichever is first.
or we could require acces to a regbus?
or is amps of dump charge = factor * (acceptance - actual voltage)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is this an issue of amps availability? How many amps are on tap at a
local substation? What kind of voltages are in there?
Example: http://www.co.orange.nc.us/ems/photos/electric-substation-01.jpg
How easy(hard?) would it be to make a DC converter to siphon off some
amps from one of those and put it into the pack in rapid fashion?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Responses inserted below:
Quoting Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Hello James,
>
> You said the batteries were in storage for 9 months, did you have
> maintainers on them storing that long.
No, I didn't but looking back at my Calendar, they were in storage for more like
Six months not nine.
I had new batteries I bought
> from a
> local dealer and found out that 10 of them where in storage at a
> warehouse
> for about 9 months. They blew up the minute I applied a high ampere
> load on
> them.
That's the thing that has me most concerned. I had *NO* load on these
batteries! Zip, zilch, nada, nunca NONE! The swichs on the ET was off, and the
mowing deck was not even connected to put a load on it.
>
> The negative plates was so sulfated that it coated them in a hard
> surface
> that try to break lose in a high ampere load.
>
> If you have batteries in storage that long, try to charge them with a
> very
> low ampere for a very long time, maybe a week or two before you increase
> to
> a full charge.
Well, thats nice to know, but a little late ;). It's also impossible for me.
The only chargers I have are my 36v 21amp Manacharge III golf cart chargers (I
have two of them) and my Piece o crap sears 6 amp 12 battery charger. Neither
one exacltly what you had in mind. Not to mention I had kinda wanted to at
least drive the E-8 without taking two bloody weeks to charge the bats.
Sheesh.....
>
> Another thing is not to have any arc producing devices near a battery.
> It
> is best to have the batteries in a in close container isolated from any
>
> contactors or switches with ventilation.
I did one better, the bats were on a wheeled garden cart. No sides, and just a
metal mesh bottom. The cart and the E-8 were both outside with a fair breeze
blowing, so H2 could not build up. Ok, inside the batts maybe, but definately
not outside.
>
> The batteries are ventilated during charging.
>
> When connecting up battery links or cables, it is best to not have the
> load
> connected up to the battery. Used a set of battery contactors that act
> as
> safety contactors that connect the battery power to the main contactor
> and
> controller.
E=8 does not have a controller per-se. Turn the key , the motor turns on, you
engage, disengage via the shifter / break pedal. Ultra simple, and, again this
was all supposedly off, thus the contactors not even engaged.
>
> If you have a on board charger, the DC output power to batteries should
> also
> have a contactor to isolated from the battery. The safety contactors
> are
> off while the battery charger contactors are on.
>
> The most dangerous thing, is the layout of the batteries. Lets say you
> have
> 120 volts of batteries connected in a string. Make sure the most
> negative
> and the most positive is at the furthest distance from each other.
> This
> would be 20 each 6-volts batteries all in one roll.
>
> If you made two rolls of 10 per roll, where the most negative and most
> positive batteries are together, you may have arc over from these
> adjacent
> batteries, does not matter how much you clean them. You cannot see this
>
> arcing in sunlight, but when its dark you may see it.
I believe that this is possibe but is it likely with only 36volts? Yes the
batteries were next to each other, but the leads were at least 18" apart and the
batteries themseslves were not touching each other.
>
> After doing a normal charging, you can test this out, by taking a
> voltage
> reading between any two adjacent batteries, by placing the leads on the
>
> plastic, not on the post.
>
> It is best to not to have and two adjacent batteries over 72 volts.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 2:52 PM
> Subject: Exploding batteries in an E-8 (yikes!)
>
>
> > A few weeks ago I purchased an E-8. I was told that all it needed
> was
> > batteries, and for what I paid, I could afford if it needed any real
> > work..
> >
> > So today I get it out of the shed and start working on it. I take a
> group
> > of 6
> > exide 6V golf cart batteries that I've had in storage for about 9
> months
> > and put
> > them on the golf cart charger to get brought up to voltage.
> >
> > After about 5 hours on the charger they are up enough (IMO) to test
> the
> > E8. I
> > make sure the key switch is off on the E-8 and connect the negative
> lead
> > of the
> > E-8 to the negative terminal of my 36v exide pack with a pair of heavy
>
> > jumper
> > cables.
> >
> > I connect the jumpers to the E-8 positive terminal. As soon as I
> touch it
> > to
> > the positve lead of the battery pack *BANG* there was an explosion as
> loud
> > as a
> > shotgun blast. The first battery in the string (the one that the
> negative
> > jumper cable was connected to) exploded. Oddly enough, it was the
> battery
> > farthest from the one I had just made the connection to.
> >
> > Anyway it blew off it's caps and almost blew off the top of the
> battery.
> > There
> > is a 10" semicircular crack on the top. Oh yeah, I managed to get
> sprayed
> > by
> > battery acid. I was wearing safty glasses, so a quick shower and I'm
>
> > fine, but
> > What the @#$%^&* happend?
> >
> > Even if I got the connections backwards, with everything off, that
> should
> > not
> > have happend should it?
> >
> > Any ideas?
> >
> > James
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
couldn't locate the twin DC motor/drive setup
where is it on the webpage ?
..peekay
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 7:23 AM
Subject: Electric Race Car Article
> There is an interesting electric race car article in Race Car Engineering
> magazine. While most active list members would find a lot of the info
redundant,
> the twin DC motor and drive setup appeared very unique and well
engineered.
> Unfortunately the below link doesn't let a person read the entire article
> without subscribing.
>
> http://www.racecar-engineering.com/content/feature_04.htm
>
> Lawson Huntley
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.1/326 - Release Date: 27/04/2006
>
>
___________________________________________________________
24 FIFA World Cup tickets to be won with Yahoo! Mail http://uk.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, the parts all arrived today. This evening I fiddled with the
potting compound; basically I took 50 of those #6 lugs, tried to fit the
diode in with the wire coming back, failed, grumbled, drilled wire
escape holes in the lugs, mixed up the potting stuff, rolled a diode in
it, put it in the lug. Did the same for the 50 smaller diodes and the
#10 lugs.
The bulbs are being assembled with the resistor connecting to the bottom
and top of the bulb, thus leaving me places to solder the connecting wires.
Now I need to figure out a way to secure this mess to the battery
without it vibrating apart. The potting compound will take 48 hours to
cure, and I don't think I want to make these a part of the batteries.
Then again maybe not. Then again that would be a lot of compound and
make a real mess. Then again who really cares?
Not sure how else I can secure these things to the batteries; double
stick tape might catch fire or something. Maybe a squirt of normal epoxy
or something.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can see I wasn't completely clear about that. Unfortunately the pic of the
twin motor/drive setup is in the part you can't access without the online
subscription.
In my area (southeast) Racecar Engineering is available at most Borders
Bookstores, Barnes & Noble, and Books-A-Million.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I finally got to see the MG episode tonight and it made my day (which
wasn't hard, really, since the family dog is suddenly really sick, I
broke a crown, and I turned a year older :P ). I had been worried that
I would be really angry about how the EV scene was portrayed based on
some of the comments I'd read. However, it was pretty decent.
For those that think Jesse was being an a$$, that was a good
day^H^H^Hweek for JJ (see the flying Delorian episode if you want to
see him trash an idea or a build member). I was also impressed with
the build team; you guys did great work. They found nothing to
complain about, no one to single out as poor, and there was no
fighting. Great job!
As for the car, I think considering you got to where you did in only
five runs and with Jessie at wheel and making design and tuning
descisions that it ended up outstanding! I do hope that you get to
tweak and tune it some more and run it again as JZ was suggesting.
Congratulations and well done!
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just want to thank the NEDRA members for supporting this recent election and
for electing me as their new Vice President. I have been in contact with our
new president, Brian Hall, and we are in the process of appointing a new Board
of Directors. We hope to be up and running very soon. Thank you again.
-- Don "Father Time" Crabtree
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
EarthLink Revolves Around You.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rod and all,
Maybe one of these days I'll get
something Ryan can sell to EV'rs at a reasonable
price.
Rod
We need to find a way to differentiate between Ryans on this list. My
friends in high school all just called me "Bohm". I need something cool
like Plasma Boy though.
If you were talking about me, I do have this available:
http://www.evsource.com/tls_blowers.php
It's not real cheap, but they're new and reliable.
I'm working with NetGain on getting a good interface with the WarP
motors. Right now, it's all just custom work done by the end-user.
Hopefully some ideas start breeding when I take a tour of the Warfield
plant before the AFV races in Joliet in a few weeks :) Yes, I'll be
there. I'm excited to meet everyone that I know by e-mail and the EVDL.
-Ryan (Bohm...Plasma Bohm...Neon Ryan...Happy Man...Reverend
Bohm...Father-No-Time...hmmm, just not clicking)
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't get it either. Current CVT design appears somewhat
inefficient. It is associated with hybrid technology in that it allows
a wonderfully efficient Atkinson cycle engine (Prius), which does not
normally perform well over anything but a narrow range of throttle and
rpm settings, to give much more acceptable drivability in an automotive
application. But EV motors already perform so well across a wide rpm
range. Adding a CVT is not only pointless since it will decrease
efficiency needlessly but would also be quite expensive. It seems like
a normal manual transmission with a few gears should provide excellent
coverage of the rpms the electric motor does not perform well at. The
continuous nature of the tranny is not necessary.
If you wanted to show off the convenience of an auto tranny, why not
just think along the lines of an automatic shifter on a manual tranny?
The motor has so much less inertia that the initial meshing contact is
less critical, and in fact with a clever design which creates or looks
for the point where the rpm of the motor is exactly equal to the rpm of
the drive shaft times the new gear ratio it should be able to "speed
shift" and pop it into gear.
Danny
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
Well there's your problem, you're asking why some people are attracted
to CVTs, but you're comparing them to *manual* transmissions, not
automatics. The lure is (I believe) that you can have the efficiency
of a manual, but the convenience of a automatic...
I do agree that a fixed gearing setup is way "neato", and a great way
to go with electrics (if you have the motor to let you). Or even a
GearVendors overdrive/underdrive unit used with a suitably geared
rear-end (if I had the money, that's what I would personally like to
use instead of a CVT or a Manual).
~ Peanut Gallery ~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Voltage at the high-voltage masts is over 100,000V
sometimes (for high power distribution lines/long distances
they take it to 1/2 MV.
The medium voltage that comes from the substation to the
power poles in your street, with the 2 or 3 thin wires on the top
are around 10,000V
If you are saying that you want dump-charging at around 1000A into
a high voltage pack (say 400V) or 400kW of power to recharge even an
extremely large 40kWh pack in 5 minutes to 80% (provided the batteries
survive this abuse) then you can still power such a charger from
the medium power line in your street - it would take about 40A or
less if it is 3-phase. No need to build substations on every
streetcorner - EVs are amazingly efficient ;-)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 8:19 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV Charging station (sizing)
Is this an issue of amps availability? How many amps are on tap at a
local substation? What kind of voltages are in there?
Example: http://www.co.orange.nc.us/ems/photos/electric-substation-01.jpg
How easy(hard?) would it be to make a DC converter to siphon off some
amps from one of those and put it into the pack in rapid fashion?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, the plan with the big charger is to have the Regbus available and
operating. If anything goes wrong, the bus shuts down the charger.
Yes, the plan is to ramp up relatively slowly verifying that Nothing gets
hot or goes over voltage. If any battery is full, the charger ramps back to
avoid overcharge.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List Re: EV Charging station"
<ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: EV Charging station (sizing)
> How do we prevent someone from dump chargeing into an almost full pack
> with the wrong charger setting, ie 300V charger setting and 244V pack
> (opps, i changed the pack since last charged at this station....)
>
> Measure voltage prior to activating charger and monitor current and rate
> of voltage change to estimate SOC?
> ie
> connect
> press start
> charger measures voltage
> charger applies 10amp load and measures voltage again
> SOC is estimated and decision to charge is made (will this work?)
> current limit is imposed during charge and accumulated estimate of SOC
> is updated
> System shuts down when 80% SOC is estimated or timer runs ourt,
> whichever is first.
>
>
> or we could require acces to a regbus?
>
> or is amps of dump charge = factor * (acceptance - actual voltage)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Personally, I think the PM motor, contactor controller, and variable
> speed belt transmission setup looks the most promising for an
> inexpensive, efficient EV.
I suppose this would be true...if any of those items were readily
available at low cost. (Talking about car size components)
About the only way you are going to get this stuff cheap is if you are
exceptionally good at scrounging. However, if that's the case, you'll
probably build with whatever you get your hands on rather than being
picky.
I believe the only car size CVT that your going to find with any kind of
regualarity is the one from the Honda Insight. IIRC this is a computer
controlled CVT, so you might have to do some engineering to make it work,
then build custom adapter plates, etc.
Seems like a whole lot of work and expense to end up with a not very good
solution.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Well there's your problem, you're asking why some people are attracted
> to CVTs, but you're comparing them to *manual* transmissions, not
> automatics. The lure is (I believe) that you can have the efficiency of
> a manual, but the convenience of a automatic...
But that's the point, they DON'T have the efficiency of a manual. They
have efficiency similar to an Automatic, lower efficiency than an
automatic with the torque converter bypassed.
Single speed EVs offer all of the convience of an automatic with generally
BETTER efficiency than a standard transmission (That's why ALL of the OEMs
when this way).
A custom two speed transimission would offer the best all around
efficiency and you could automate the shifting for less effort and expense
than adapting a CVT.
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In general, the public demand is much greater for some form of automatic
shifting. From the information I researched, the current automatic
transmission is about 85% efficient. Current automobile CVTs are at 90%
efficiency. The automatic shift manual transmission is the best overall at
over 92% efficiency.
The appeal of the CVT is in the simplicity of the design (cheaper) with only
3 main parts for a continuous shifting transmission. For a fuel engine, the
CVT can be designed to keep the engine running at it's peak fuel efficiency rpm.
I like the simplicity of the CVT and am currently using one on my EZE Sport
Bike (Honda F4 conversion). It has two Etek motors, Comet CVT and 96 volts of
Hawker Odyssey. I was planning to try the series parallel switching but the
CVT has worked surprisingly well so I have stuck with the CVT.
The Comet CVT I am using on my EZE motorcycle is of the type used in
snowmobiles. There are number of snowmobile CVTs ranging from 25hp to +100hp.
Unfortunately there are very few CVT around that would work in an automobile.
The automobile CVTs such as the Audi Multitronic are integrated into the engine
and would probably not be compatible with an EV.
If I were to guess, the CVT on the EZE is running at about 85% efficiency.
CVT are well proven in scooters, snowmobiles and quads. Belt reliability is
maybe a concern but they are only $35 for a kevlar belt. Most of the
automobile CVTs are using steel belts that last much longer.
Why do I like the CVT?
At the low end I am geared for about 25 mph top speed before the CVT begins
to shift. That gives me 2 to 3 times the low end torque of a direct geared
bike with a 60 mph top speed. I can also adjust the shift range to maintain
constant rpm from 25mph up to say 60mph and then let the motor rpm rise to my
top speed of say 80mph. All of this is done with just a twist of the throttle.
Simple.
EZESPORT
Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I don't get it either. Current CVT design appears somewhat
inefficient. It is associated with hybrid technology in that it allows
a wonderfully efficient Atkinson cycle engine (Prius), which does not
normally perform well over anything but a narrow range of throttle and
rpm settings, to give much more acceptable drivability in an automotive
application. But EV motors already perform so well across a wide rpm
range. Adding a CVT is not only pointless since it will decrease
efficiency needlessly but would also be quite expensive. It seems like
a normal manual transmission with a few gears should provide excellent
coverage of the rpms the electric motor does not perform well at. The
continuous nature of the tranny is not necessary.
If you wanted to show off the convenience of an auto tranny, why not
just think along the lines of an automatic shifter on a manual tranny?
The motor has so much less inertia that the initial meshing contact is
less critical, and in fact with a clever design which creates or looks
for the point where the rpm of the motor is exactly equal to the rpm of
the drive shaft times the new gear ratio it should be able to "speed
shift" and pop it into gear.
Danny
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
> Well there's your problem, you're asking why some people are attracted
> to CVTs, but you're comparing them to *manual* transmissions, not
> automatics. The lure is (I believe) that you can have the efficiency
> of a manual, but the convenience of a automatic...
>
> I do agree that a fixed gearing setup is way "neato", and a great way
> to go with electrics (if you have the motor to let you). Or even a
> GearVendors overdrive/underdrive unit used with a suitably geared
> rear-end (if I had the money, that's what I would personally like to
> use instead of a CVT or a Manual).
>
> ~ Peanut Gallery ~
>
>
---------------------------------
Blab-away for as little as 1ยข/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo!
Messenger with Voice.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff,
>How do we prevent someone from dump chargeing into an almost
>full pack with the wrong charger setting
Simple - use the technologies already available.
For example, the AVCON connector has a duty-cycle variable
pilot signal, indicating the amount of current available
from the outlet to the (onboard) charger.
In case of dump charging, I suppose the charger is offboard
and only the BMS is onboard, so the BMS can send a duty-
cycle controlled signal to the dump charger to indicate
how much current to provide.
The BMS measures and knows the SOC, the charger follows.
Only issue is make a good definition and standardize it.
Pack voltage differences are not a problem with an approach
like Rich has - provide a fixed current into any voltage level
by using a buck converter and current feedback.
Only limit is the *max* voltage that can be delivered.
Any lower voltage will be established automatically by
plugging in - that is the beauty of a "current source".
1000A into a 96V pack will simply use half the power of the
same current into a 192V pack, because the buck converter
needs twice the current input at the same input voltage
(from the grid) for the second case compared to the first.
So Rich, when starts the 400kW development? ;-)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 8:01 PM
To: EV Charging station
Subject: Re: EV Charging station (sizing)
ok, lets assume for the dump charge scenario we want to go with a
professional and safe setup.
lets also asume for the sake of calculation that a person would want or
need 10 miles of "boost" .
Given 300Wh/mile that is 3kwh
if we compress that to 10 min it is only 18kw, that is 75 amps @
240Volt. a pfc50 can handle this?( or is that only to a lower packV)
>From a consumers viewpoint 10 min is actually a lot, enought that i
would classify it as fast chargeing not dump chargeing.
I am just trying to be realistic for the NON-EV people trained in the
art of 3 min pumping.
So trying for 5min makes that 150Amps
Since we would want to also either minimize grid draw to keep costs down
it seems like we would either need a 480V 3 phase hookup to pull about
60Amps(reasonable) at 480 3Phase to push 150A 240V into a pack
requireing a 1/0 charge port(Anderson SB175)
or a dump pack of 4-6 48V forklift batteries and a boost version of the
charger
How do we prevent someone from dump chargeing into an almost full pack
with the wrong charger setting, ie 300V charger setting and 244V pack
(opps, i changed the pack since last charged at this station....)
Measure voltage prior to activating charger and monitor current and rate
of voltage change to estimate SOC?
ie
connect
press start
charger measures voltage
charger applies 10amp load and measures voltage again
SOC is estimated and decision to charge is made (will this work?)
current limit is imposed during charge and accumulated estimate of SOC
is updated
System shuts down when 80% SOC is estimated or timer runs ourt,
whichever is first.
or we could require acces to a regbus?
or is amps of dump charge = factor * (acceptance - actual voltage)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich has a charger designed for 400 Amps and it has been demonstrated into
resistors. He does not have big enough wires in any battery packs to charge
a battery. IIRC the wires are expected soon.
You do not want to use taps. It seriously unbalances the battery pack and it
is tough to get the pack back into balance.
The inductor is about the size of a golf car tire.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: EV Charging station
> Please send the pictures.
>
>
> About the SAE specs, cool.
>
> Cor van de water said "Dump charging should preferably still use a charger
"
>
> What charger? Even rich doesn't have a charger that does 200-400A...yet.
It is why I mentioned using a zilla or a curtis. maybe an altrax.
>
>
> About ultracaps. Caps are for 100,000 of cycles with large voltage
> swings just not even what we want here, it would require a really
> special dc-dc.
> A bunker of submarine batteries at larger stations, banks of large
> flooded bats for smaller stations.AGM would be nice, but $$$
>
>
> The choice between taps or a controller.
>
> Lets say I was gonna use a controller for the dump charger. How much
> inductance and capacitance would I need? would this inductor be huge or
> what?
>
> Would a twistlock plug be ok for the 220V charge plug? How do we
> establish a standard? what about what is commonlyavailable at boat
> shops? (BTW, i have found thes places to have a great selection of
> quality connectors, better than rat shack or battery places, they have
> water sensitive autonomy issues )
>
>
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product/10001/-1/10001/145251/10001/311/310/9
>
>
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/categoryg/10001/-1/10001/311/310/9/man/asc/15/grid
>
> some of the stuff is reasonable
>
--- End Message ---
