EV Digest 5435
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: The big debate. Gearbox or not with an AC motor.
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) New EV Album is Up
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: New in Hawaii
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: New EV Album is Up
by jerry halstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) The big debate. Gearbox or not with an AC motor.
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV Charging station
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: EV Charging station
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: The big debate. Gearbox or not with an AC motor.
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: WarP 9" motor efficiency and max voltage?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Hot solenoid
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Does the following make sense?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Series and Parallel
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) etek forced cooling/fans
by paul wiley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: The big debate. Gearbox or not with an AC motor.
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Civic, DC motors, was: RE: The big debate.
by "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Reflections on a Toyota Conversion to Plug-In-Hybrid
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: DIY air-conditioning
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Nikki, I am using an AC system, with the stock transmission, but no clutch
(to save weight). Here are a few points I have learned:
- as others pointed out, you will need some kind of gear reduction. Most
units (like the MES) are meant for FWD, and may be difficult to adapt to
your Minor.
- most gear reduction will be in the neighborhood of 6:1 to 9:1. There are
not many (if any) lightweight rear ends with these kinds of ratios.
- I wish I left the clutch in my New Beetle, although 2nd gear handles 90%
of my needs, sometimes, when going on the highway, I would like to have
third.
- I think you will find that when you compare various gear reduction
options, using the stock transmission will be the most easiest option for
fitment and versatility. One option is to leave the transmission in, see
how you like it, and then in phase 2 or phase 3 go for a fixed gear system.
- higher voltage does not necessarily mean AC. Using a Zilla controller you
can use a high voltage system (up to 340V), but the controller will limit
the voltage to the motor. This is useful, because batteries packs voltage
drops as you accelerate, therefore the motor will always receive the max
amount of voltage.
- Victor has just made an offer of a smaller AC system that would be great
for your minor. Has Regen, and Siemens OEM quality. Max voltage 160V
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of nikki
Sent: May 1, 2006 10:55 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: The big debate. Gearbox or not with an AC motor.
I'm still at a very early stage in my research as you all know but I'm
wondering if I may ask for all your opinions on the AC motor with
gearbox/without gearbox debate.
I have some prerequisites for my car which I believe will end up with me
using an AC motor. They are:
Good range. (Anything between 50 to 150 miles would be ideal) High voltage
as oppose to high current system. I'm a great believer in having a
high-voltage, low current system wherever possible (and as I recall isn't
there less voltage drop on a low current system? - A long time since I did
my high school physics and I really should brush up!!!) Reasonable top
speed. Capability to do freeway speeds would be essential.
Acceleration Isn't a problem. My current car takes a year to get to 60... or
did before I removed the ICE.
So - to the question.
Gearboxes. I understood that they weren't allways needed on an EV and
especially not on an AC car. But are there any benifits of having a gearbox
that I should consider (Such as the ability to enable the motor to always be
turning at a fairly constant RPM, or perhaps a better gear for hill
climbing?)
Thanks in advance!
Nikki
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
Some of you may have already noticed, but if not, the new improved EV
Album is up and running. Jerry Halstead has gone WAY beyond what I
could possibly have hoped for. He is magic with the code. He is the
only reason this was able to happen at all.
Despite all the changes, if you linked to your old page, the link still works.
I am sure there are still a few kinks to work out, and with that
much data we certainly must have some data errors. I am going to be
"tweaking" entries for quite some time.
The system now allows users to edit and update their own record,
upload their own images, and expedites new entry submissions. We
have improved the search functions, but the real system wide search
is not on-line yet. We have also mapped the listed EVs as best we
can, don't worry, we didn't give out the latitude and longitude of
your house, just your town. A rather neat new function is the
ability to add captions for each picture. Obviously, at this point
most don't have them.
If you have submitted an entry to the Album and it has never been
posted, please drop me a note off list, don't submit it again. Those
pending entries are already there, they are just hidden from public
gaze at the moment.
Anyway, please bear with us, I am sure there are going to be some
teething problems. If you run into anything, or have a question,
just drop me a note off list.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey
Webmaster
EV Photo Album
http://evalbum.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had an 83 Tercel; I'm certain your 91 has had some
upgrades, but here are the thoughts if I'd considered
converting my 83:
-the Tercel is one of the noisiest cars I've ever
driven; moreso than my Civic as an ICE. You _will_ be
driving it on 40-42 PSI tires as an electric. It may
be pretty noisy, and
- the suspension is somewhat harsh already. Adding
batteries, you'll beef it up & make it harsher.
- Not much space in the front for batteries, that I
saw. Back has a decent hatch (again 83).
-Check the EVAlbum. Have others blazed the trail for
that body style? The toughest thing is placing
batteries/weight for the sake of handling. See what's
been done prior...
-How is the GVWR, if you subtract 200-400 lbs, and add
1000 lbs. for batteries? Mine had 155/70-13 tires,
and I'm wondering if bearings and brakes would be up
to task.
I'd lean toward repair & driving it during conversion
of a different vehicle.
--- Zaff and Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Aloha,
>
> I am new to the list and new to EV. I am seaching
> for help in Hawaii
> (O'ahu) to convert my 1991 Toyata Tercel. My
> Tercel is sitting in the
> yard with oil leaking into the spark plug but other
> wise it's in working
> order. I could donate it or convert it. I'm not a
> mechanic nor an
> electrician, actually I was a theatrical technical
> director untill I
> retired to homeschool my 2 teenage kids.
>
> Anyway, the problem here is finding the parts
> without shipping them from
> the mainland. If there is someone here to guide me
> and point me toward
> mostly local parts then perhaps I could convert it.
> Everyone, so far
> have told me just to buy a GEM car -- which cannot
> go on the freeways.
> I thought maybe I could get the Tercel to go a
> little faster???
>
> Thanks for any help,
> Zaff
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also, if you already have an entry on the site you *should* be able
to get a new password by using your existing email (the one you gave
to mike originally) and requesting a new password under "Lost
Password". Don't make a new user account.
Enjoy!
-Jerry
http://www.evconvert.com/
On May 2, 2006, at 8:30 AM, Mike Chancey wrote:
Hi folks,
Some of you may have already noticed, but if not, the new improved
EV Album is up and running. Jerry Halstead has gone WAY beyond
what I could possibly have hoped for. He is magic with the code.
He is the only reason this was able to happen at all.
Despite all the changes, if you linked to your old page, the link
still works.
I am sure there are still a few kinks to work out, and with that
much data we certainly must have some data errors. I am going to
be "tweaking" entries for quite some time.
The system now allows users to edit and update their own record,
upload their own images, and expedites new entry submissions. We
have improved the search functions, but the real system wide search
is not on-line yet. We have also mapped the listed EVs as best we
can, don't worry, we didn't give out the latitude and longitude of
your house, just your town. A rather neat new function is the
ability to add captions for each picture. Obviously, at this point
most don't have them.
If you have submitted an entry to the Album and it has never been
posted, please drop me a note off list, don't submit it again.
Those pending entries are already there, they are just hidden from
public gaze at the moment.
Anyway, please bear with us, I am sure there are going to be some
teething problems. If you run into anything, or have a question,
just drop me a note off list.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In general*....Since horspower is (torque*rpm)/5252 we can trad size of
motor(=torque) for rpm. AC motors are spinners, DC motors ar grunters.
AC can spin faster and therefore a single gear reduction allows a much
smaller motor. The torque curve is flat on AC motors which means a
multispeed gearbox is not recommended. (also lugging an AC induction
motor is difficult on rotor heating)
Compared that to the series DC motor with a steep curve giving lots more
torque at start(where we need it) but dropping off as speed increases
and a speed limit on the commutator, you can see why a 2 or 3 speed (and
reverse) gearbox is needed.
Only BLDC (or BLAC) motors seem to be designed for direct drive at wheel
rpm's. This is done with high pole counts.
I guess what I am saying is it is all about torque
AC INduction motor
torque
|
| __
| ********* *
| * *
| * *
|*______________ *_______speed
Series wound
torque
| *
| *
| *
| *
| *
| *
| **
| *****
|_____________****_______speed
Permanet magnet
torque
| *
| *
| *
| *
| *
|_____________ *_______speed
* generally what we find avail to us, Almost any charactristic can be
done in any motor type.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab writes:
>
> EV1.2
> I Absolutly disagree here. The standard blade style is not intended
> to be pluged and unpluged and it is so freaking easy for someone to get
> their fingers accross the contacts.
> So far I would use the waterproof versions of the recessed twistlock
> or even pin style that boat people use. They are commonly avail, but
> over priced. That can change easily enough.
> I haven't looked at the avcon's yet, but compatibility with existing
> rangers and rav4's may be a impitus here.
Remember that outlets above 120v that are intended for EV charging stations
may have to meet the requirements of NEC Article 625 that requires any parts
once made alive to be completely inaccessible. This rules out almost any
connector you can buy at Home Depot. This is what the Avcon and Magnecharge
systems addressed.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The IEC309 look pretty good, Isther an industry they are used in that
would mke them available around town, in case people drive over their
plug or something?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Jeff - Aaaah ACSII graphs :) (Aren't they fantastic?)
Nikki
On May 2, 2006, at 2:11 PM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
In general*....Since horspower is (torque*rpm)/5252 we can trad
size of
motor(=torque) for rpm. AC motors are spinners, DC motors ar grunters.
AC can spin faster and therefore a single gear reduction allows a
much
smaller motor. The torque curve is flat on AC motors which means a
multispeed gearbox is not recommended. (also lugging an AC induction
motor is difficult on rotor heating)
Compared that to the series DC motor with a steep curve giving lots
more
torque at start(where we need it) but dropping off as speed increases
and a speed limit on the commutator, you can see why a 2 or 3 speed
(and
reverse) gearbox is needed.
Only BLDC (or BLAC) motors seem to be designed for direct drive at
wheel
rpm's. This is done with high pole counts.
I guess what I am saying is it is all about torque
AC INduction motor
torque
|
| __
| ********* *
| * *
| * *
|*______________ *_______speed
Series wound
torque
| *
| *
| *
| *
| *
| *
| **
| *****
|_____________****_______speed
Permanet magnet
torque
| *
| *
| *
| *
| *
|_____________ *_______speed
* generally what we find avail to us, Almost any charactristic can be
done in any motor type.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Ryan,
You can contact NetGain, and they will e-mail you a motor spread sheet on
your EV. You tell them what type of batteries, battery pack voltage, weight
of car, type of tires, the diameter of tires, maximum speed, frontal area,
ambient temperature and grades ranging from level to percentage of grades.
They will send you info on the Warp motor, showing maximum voltage, maximum
ampere, torque, maximum rpm, efficiency, maximum temperature, gear
efficiency, traction effort, battery resistance, coefficient of drag at a
known speed for a certain amount of time.
They then will recommend what size and type if motor you should have for
your EV for your driving conditions.
For example, they sent the info on my Warp 9 motor for 60 minutes on level
grade for a 7000 lb load in my EV.
HP - 39
Maximum Ampere - 199 Amps
Maximum Voltage - 174 volts
Torque - 24 ft lbs
Motor efficiency - 0.85
Gear efficiency - 0.90
Battery resistance - 0.085
Traction effort - 267.00 in lbs
Rolling resistance - 0.050
Coefficient of drag - 0.80
Best motor efficiency and torque for a Warp 9 motor is at about 3000 rpm
while a Warp 11 motor would have the best efficiency at 2000 rpm at double
the torque and half the ampere.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: WarP 9" motor efficiency and max voltage?
> Hi Dmitri and all,
>
> > My first question is, what is the WarP 9" motor's efficiency at 1000
> > amps and 150+ motor volts?
>
> I don't know the answer to this. But I do know that you better not be
> running 1000 amps for any extended period of time. For hard
> accelerations - okay. Try continuous at that current and things aren't
> going to last long. Do you still need to know the efficiency?
>
> You might see numbers like 2500 RPM at 50 amps going about 50 MPH.
> That's a pretty good target. Something in the ballpark of 250 amps
> going 65 mph at 3000 RPM could become a concern if ran that way for
> extended periods.
>
> >
> > What is the highest motor voltage the WarP 9" will take safely
> > (without arcing and destruction) for a regular street vehicle?
>
> NetGain recommends staying at no more than 170V - 160V is the number
> that I hear more often.
>
> -Ryan
> --
> - EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
> Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Richard,
These are call contactors. Normally a motor contactor design for DC
traction.
The best types are the open types, where you can see the contactors, coils
and mechanization. These items can be replace as needed. The best ones,
are industrial types, where 50 years from now, you can still get a part for.
It like a buy a circuit breaker for a 50 year old house.
I am running CableForm motor contactors, that are design for the EV used,
and for the battery pack that is used. My contactor design is now 50 years
old, and the new contacts, coils, and mechanization I buy today, still fits
the 50 year chassis frame.
Fifty years ago, these cost about $100.00 each and today they are $500.00
each and 50 years from now will be $2500.00 each.
The type of components you buy will depend on how long you want to run a EV.
Check EV Source or EV Parts for standard contactor sources.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 5:42 AM
Subject: Hot solenoid
> The way my Comuta-Van is currently set up, my Curtis controller is
> connected
> to the power circuit by turning the key, which in turn engages a solenoid.
> The solenoid connects the controller to the battery pack. The charging
> pigtail is also attached to the (+) side of the solenoid and the (-) side
> is
> connected to the controller where the (-) side of the battery connects to
> it.
>
> The (+) side of the battery pack is connected to one side of the solenoid
> and the appropriate lead on the motor controller is connected to the other
> side. Then of course, the solenoid has 2 smaller leads connected to ground
> and the (+) side of my accessory battery via the keyswitch.
>
> After a normal commute, I've traced the power cables hand-over-hand to
> check
> for hot spots and this is now the only one. The solenoid gets pretty hot.
> I
> cannot keep my hand on it for more than 5-10 seconds. I feel that this is
> a
> point of loss in the circuit. The solenoid is kind of small...perhaps as
> small as a child's fist.
>
> Does anyone have a recommendation for a heavier duty solenoid that would
> not
> have so much loss or perhaps a different solution altogether? I don't feel
> that anything is in danger of melting down but I know that heat=
> waste/loss
> and I hate to limit the circuit and possibly my performance or risk
> melting
> something.
>
> Whatever the solution is, it needs to handle 72 volts and at least 400
> amps.
>
> Thanks,
> Rich A.
> Maryland
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
JUst add up what it costs to make it yourself. Minimum(using a controller)
for good performance.
Zilla 1K or simular
9" or 8" ADC or simular
156vdc of batteries
DC/DC
Wiring
Connectors
Charger is variable. Do you need quick charging?(Quick (big) charging does
seem to improve battery life.)
Vaccum pump(vacuum assisted brakes)
Springs
tires
Battery racks
Here we have just under 10k in parts give or take, depending on if you used
new or used parts. If you scrounge you might get it down a bit. But this
is not includng labor. It is not including buying lets say Electro
Automotive racks. Using these components on a small car you can have Wayland
like performance. Maybe not as good but very close. You can make an EV
using contactors that will be a bit cheaper because you cut out the
controller but you still need good batteries and good motors to bring it
off. LR......
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 1:54 AM
Subject: Does the following make sense?
Regarding EVs right now, the follow equation seems to make sense to me:
1. Range
2. ICE equivalent performance
3. Costs less than a small family home
Chose only two of the above.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee;
Can the wiring of the batteries be set up to accomplish this?
For example with a 120V system, you have a way to start with 60V at twice
the amps, and then switch to 120V?
Can this be done?
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 10:50 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Series and Parallel
David Ankers wrote:
> I think I get the simple version of running a motor in series and
> parallel; *very* simply, series gives you more torque and parallel
> enables the motor to run faster?
The key point is that each motor develops a certain torque per amp, and a
certain rpm per volt.
When you connect them in series, each amp from the battery puts 1 amp thru
EACH motor. You get 2 units of torque for each amp of battery current. But
each motor gets half the voltage, so it runs half as fast.
When you connect them in parallel, it takes TWO amps from the battery to put
one amp in each motor; thus you get half the torque per battery amp.
But each motor sees the full battery voltage, so it runs twice as fast.
> Does series and parallel operation work with a single motor
Sometimes; it depends on the motor.
AC motors are frequently built with two sets of windings which can be
connected in series (240vac) or parallel (120vac). The motor's mechanical
performance (speed, torque, horsepower) is completely unaffected by whether
it is wired for 120vac or 240vac operation.
DC motors don't normally have multiple sets of windings that you can
reconnect in series or parallel. The best you can hope for is two sets of
FIELD windings (not armature windings). The field windings can be
reconnected in series or parallel to change the torque-per-amp and
rpm-per-volt, but not as much as 2:1 because the armature is unchanged.
> and could it enable a car to run while locked in 2nd gear all the time
> for example.
Generally, no. To stay in 2nd all the time, the motor has to withstand the
high rpm that you'd get at 70 mph. That means it needs high voltage, too
(and has to be built to withstand it).
And, the motor has to be able to be able to withstand the high current it
will take to produce high torque without a 1st gear. And the controller
needs to be able to supply this higher current, too.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Without just making it myself, is there any fans/blowers avail for the etek?
Would a ram air system be just as effective?
Thanks for the help, this is an awesome source of info for EVs, BECAUSE of
the great participants!!!
paul
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail goes everywhere you do. Get it on your phone.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nikki,
The reference I use for AC cars is AC Propulsion in California. They
always use the stock gearbox. They take out all of the extra gears to
reduce drag and weight. An aluminum spacer is required to replace the
gears removed to hold everything in place.
They also recommend using 0w-20 Mobile One for lubricant. Shows to
lube well and have low drag.
Since their cars are 100kw-150kw they don't need to shift gears. If I
recall your potential system was something like 35kw. With a small
vehicle you might be ok. I wonder if it would be worth keeping the
clutch for experimental purposes at first, then removed if not needed.
While a Minor is a tiny car, my buddy's smallish Saturn did 150-170
wh/mile last night to and from dinner as shown on the real time
display. It weighs 3400lbs. If your minor comes in at around 2200 lbs,
you should get even better mileage so you won't need a very large
pack. The heavier the pack the more weight you are carrying, the
shorter your range.
Do you have pics posted? It would be nice to see the progress.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I'm still at a very early stage in my research as you all know but
> I'm wondering if I may ask for all your opinions on the AC motor with
> gearbox/without gearbox debate.
>
> I have some prerequisites for my car which I believe will end up with
> me using an AC motor. They are:
>
> Good range. (Anything between 50 to 150 miles would be ideal)
> High voltage as oppose to high current system. I'm a great believer
> in having a high-voltage, low current system wherever possible (and
> as I recall isn't there less voltage drop on a low current system? -
> A long time since I did my high school physics and I really should
> brush up!!!)
> Reasonable top speed. Capability to do freeway speeds would be
> essential.
> Acceleration Isn't a problem. My current car takes a year to get to
> 60... or did before I removed the ICE.
>
> So - to the question.
>
> Gearboxes. I understood that they weren't allways needed on an EV and
> especially not on an AC car. But are there any benifits of having a
> gearbox that I should consider (Such as the ability to enable the
> motor to always be turning at a fairly constant RPM, or perhaps a
> better gear for hill climbing?)
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Nikki
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks James.
The Civic will be a two seater - the car it's replacing has only two seats,
it helps with the balance of the car and of course knowing the weight. Might
go for 22 packs batteries instead if this is too heavy.
> I got mine here - special price, and still $4kaus for 20 batteries
I really don't mind the extra on some things here, after all we are a bit
out of the way and the economies of scale plays a part BUT, if a special
price is $1000 more than the US and for 4 less batteries, I think I'll do a
bit of shopping around. ;-)
> The main hazard to a DC motor (after excessive heat = amps x time) is
> high voltage simultaneous to high current.
In other words then, all is well? Or not? As long as the Zilla is set
correctly the motor is never going to see high current and high voltage at
the same time? The assumption is based on what you said but also that the
guys that make the Zilla are extremely smart and I don't see them offering a
DC controller that handles 348+ volts when most DC motors can't handle it?
Thanks for the excellent and detailed reply!
Cheers,
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James Massey
Sent: Tuesday, 2 May 2006 9:13 PM
To: David Ankers
Cc: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Civic, DC motors, was: RE: The big debate.
Hi Dave - and all
This is a response to an off-list question that Dave asked - and after I
finished doing it took so much effort I thought I'd share it with the list,
as this is sure to interest others. For those who understand motors, please
do not "pick" too hard, it is intended more as a generalised semi-technical
description rather than a full-on technical one.
At 07:46 PM 2/05/06 +1000, Dave Ankers wrote:
>That's good information about working on EVs... Didn't realize the
>government are that controlling, bastards.
You can "fly under the radar" in the grey area that legislation just
doesn't cover and make your EV any voltage you want. I'm in a slightly
different position in that my business is right on the edge of the things
that electricians do (they call us in to figure out problems for them,
amongst other things) but we are not electricians, so I'm being extra
cautious.
>I've been meaning to ask you, where are you getting the Excide Orbital's
>from? Are they stupid money here in Aus compared to the US? I was thinking
>about 24 x 34XCD for the little Civic, even in the US these is expensive
but
>they are a nice battery. Best price I have found on the web in the US is
>US$100 each, this works out at just over A$3,000 for 24 batteries. Do you
>think their will be a large price increase just for buying them over here?
I got mine here - special price, and still $4kaus for 20 batteries (for
$3kaus at US prices of batteries). Not that bad though, as you would be up
for freight, plus GST when they get here. Made in Spain though, so freight
to the US vs to Aus shouldn't be that different, but maybe Exide Aus is
supplied from Exide USA making it cost to US + cost to Aus. Maybe if you
try and get onto an Exide dealer in Spain or Poland (the other place I
believe Orbitals are made) you may be able to do better.
24 x 18kg = 432kg, hmmm. Removal of the ICE stuff balances out pretty much
all of the EV components, battery racks etc, except the weight of the
batteries, so expect to be adding 432kg to your vehicle. With care you can
save another 100kg or so from the vehicle by using the lightest parts
possible, remove the wiring loom and put back the minimum you need,
removing sound deadener, etc. Do you think your Civic can take the weight?
If you really want it then consider getting the number of passengers
reduced, if a five seater, then make it legally a 4 seater, etc.
>Also, a very quick thing regarding the reply you gave to Nikki; what are
the
>voltage spikes you refer to? My plan was to throw 288volts at the Zilla 1k
>and set the max motor voltage on the Zilla to 160 volts (thinking of using
a
>8" or 9" Warp at this stage).
A not very quick answer, probably a lot more information than you wanted to
know, but hard to answer otherwise:
Short answer: during the time that the controller transistors are turned
on, the motor gets full pack voltage across it. When they are off, the
freewheel diodes are conducting so there is almost no voltage. Average
voltage is what gets limited.
Proper answer:
**Warning - technical discussion**
**Motor and controller basics**
(I don't know how much will make sense to you, or if I'm being too
simplistic, but here goes!)
A motor has a property called inductance. This property causes the motor to
"hold" a magnetic field. As you push current into a motor the inductance
sets up the magnetic field, and to increase the magnetic field requires an
increase in current, attempting to decrease the current causes the magnetic
field to collapse some, sustaining the current. If the current is abruptly
interrupted, the magnetic field will attempt to collapse *instantly*
causing a very high voltage spike (in the order of 1000s of volts) but this
is not the normally occurring voltage pulses.
On first turn on of the controller transistors, the motor has no magnetic
field, full battery voltage appears across the motor and current starts to
flow. The greater the inductance, the slower the build-up rate of the
current and the stronger the magnetic field is. The current reaches a
programmed limit in the controller, so it turns off.
The magnetic field then starts to collapse, pushing the current out of the
motor. The controller has diodes (electrical non-return valves) that allow
the current to go from the "bottom" of the motor back to the "top". In the
case of Curtis controllers and similar, after (x) milliseconds, the
controller turns back on. I believe that Zilla controllers will delay
turn-on until the current is back below the setting. Pack voltage again
appears across the motor, and the current starts to climb again. But now
(or soon) the motor is turning, and generating a voltage as well, so the
"slope" between the battery and the motor is now the amount of voltage
available to increase the current, so the controller stays on longer. This
results in the voltage pulses appearing across the motor, at 15,000 times
per second. The average voltage of these pulses is limited, but the peaks
are the battery voltage and are native to the way that DC motors work with
transistorised controllers.
The faster the motor spins, the more it generates, until at some speed the
"slope" is low enough that the controller can stay 100% on. (as a side
note, I believe that Zilla controllers switch off for a very small % - less
than 1% - during wide-open-throttle (WOT) to detect any failiures and can
shut down immediately. Curtis controllers (and others similar) can fail
100% on and you don't know until you lift your foot).
The motor voltage limit of the Zilla will prevent WOT from occurring,
unless your batteries sag to that voltage. When the average voltage that is
set into the Zilla is reached, the controller starts turning off again
earlier to prevent the average voltage from getting too high. The main
hazard to a DC motor (after excessive heat = amps x time) is high voltage
simultaneous to high current, causing arc plasma to form on the commutator
in a manner that it cannot "shed" and then carries around the commutator,
"fireballing" it.
My motor was designed for 45V, and I'll be running it at 120V, so I've
taken steps to increase its' electrical strength. An ADC or WarP 9" is
designed for something like 144V, so for 288V the motor may need to be
improved a little. John Waylands' "White Zombie" Datsun 1200 race car has a
pair of 8" motors (now "siamesed" together). During "burn-outs" he has to
force the controller to stay in series mode [I believe], as the controller
used to throw it into parallel mode, which on at least one occasion caused
the motors to 'flash over'. I believe in part this is due to the current
being interrupted abruptly by the series/parallel contactors, and when the
current can go no-where, the result is a very high voltage spike -
initiating the arc-over event.
I hope this makes sense, and helps Dave and others to understand the
operation of their motors.
Regards
James
[Technik James? if I use that name it'd differentiate me from the other
James' on the list]
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--- Begin Message ---
(please excuse me, if this is a Douplicate of a POST last night
but my e-mail program says BOUNCED...)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reflections on a Toyota Conversion: April 20th – April 29th
I think all of us realize the wisdom of Plug-In-Prius philosophy. And
that is why I made the supreme effort to accompany Ryan Fulcher to the
San Francisco Bay area, and the MAKE Fair.. Of course the chance to
take in the movie “Who Killed the Electric Car” at the SF Film Festival,
and not to mention the After movie Party did have a draw as well. Also
the chance to meet the Producers, and Director personally… But more
than ALL of that, was the opportunity to learn first hand from the Cal
Cars people.. how the whole conversion goes together, and to work side
by side with so many fine EV folks from the Bay area. My “Thanks” goes
out to all of them, and especially our host Sherry Boschert, my EAA
counterpart in San Francisco.
The long ride back Monday night, and All Day Tuesday was grueling, but
very picturesque. Shasta Lake and Mt. Shasta, and Grants Pass, were all
beautiful.
Time spent in Portland Tuesday evening with EV legend John Wayland and
wife was not to be missed either.
The conversion itself, stepping back in time for a moment, went well I
thought. Although folks really underestimated the time it takes to do
simple hardware stuff. One has to remember this was not a complete
shop environment. Metal work was being done on our hands and knees.
Wiring went fast on the 3rd day at Ron Gremban’s house. Very few
electronic glitches. Even the Charger is UP-n-Running now that Ryan
found a loose fuse holder connection last night, which was leaving the
charging path Open. There are a few things we would probably have done
differently, but one has to honor the months and months of work which
went into this project before we even got to San Mateo. Media coverage
was great. I am sure in part from the efforts of Felix Kramer and John
Davi. Thanks Fellows !! At one point I had to step in for Felix for
CBS Channel 5, and I have been told that we did well, and look forward
to a copy of said interview thanks to Tom Driscoll.
I had been working on publicity and invitations to the Two Day Open
House at the University of Washington, where the car was featured in
front of the School of Engineering this last weekend, for weeks in
advance of our trip. It never ceases to amaze me how unresponsive local
media can be. Even the UW’s own PBS radio station did not respond. And
we bumped into a UW video crew twice, but they would not stop and do an
interview. Yet all we have been hearing on Public Radio and TV for
these many weeks or more, is all about the price of gas and the
geo-political and environmental matters surrounding OIL. Go Figure ??
Good things did come from some of my invitations. Alec Fisken from
the City of Seattle, and Mr. Rich Feldman from the Apollo Alliance
stopped by, and informed us that The Alliance would like to see the car
at a very important conference being held at the Microsoft Campus, the
first week in June. At least the crowds were giving us undivided
attention. Gave out every brochure I had. Talked and Preached till my
throat was raw… (but very happy to have had the opportunity. as always)
Special thanks to the folks in the background at the UW school of
Engineering, Amy Feldman-Bawarshi and Helene Obradovich. They were
great hosts, and the Pizza was a great HIT with Ryan and I.
Now it is on to Chelan County next Monday the 8th, to show a very eager
group of forward thinking city and county folks ALL ABOUT
Plug-In-Hybrids.. They can hardly wait for us to duplicate the
conversion.. Or as we say at SEVA…”Educate, Demonstrate, and
Proliferate “!
Till then….
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
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--- Begin Message ---
John,
Thanks for the great info. My USE truck has the hardware installed for
ac just no compressor as it was optional. I'd love to have it
functional. Although I have 10 lbs of R-12 left from the old days, I'd
like to try what you described in my vehicle.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 2 May 2006 01:05:07 -0700 (MST), "Peter VanDerWal"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >> EVs have it a little better because of lack of engine heat but 22 is
> >> still a bad choice for mobile AC. An R-134a or even better,
> >> hydrocarbon (isobutane or a mix of isobutane and propane) is much
more
> >> suitable.
> >
> > I've seen this mentioned on the list before.
> > Can you adapt an existing AC system to work with isobutane or would
> >you have to build it from scratch?
>
> A mix of propane and isobutane in the right proportions is a direct
> drop-in replacement for R-12. Google back about 15 years in
> rec.autos.tech for my name (real name, not handle) or George Goble to
> read more than you can stand about this. George is a computer
> scientist at Perdue and fellow nerd. We both got pissed off at the
> EPA's CFC ban because it was being driven mostly by commercial
> interests using dubious science as the excuse. We more or less in
> parallel developed the drop-in replacement, met on the net and joined
> forces. He went on to develop and patent R-406a while I went BBQ'ing
> :-)
>
> We used the blend because we wanted it to be a drop-in with no other
> system changes necessary. If you're willing to tweak the expansion
> valve or orifice tube a bit, straight isobutane works even better. The
> vapor pressure curves of isobutane and R-12 are similar but it works
> better to change the expansion device to match.
>
> Both propane and isobutane have ASHRAE-assigned R- numbers and are
> recognized as very good refrigerants. Europe has gone to hydrocarbons
> in a big way, driven, I think, but the distaste of seeing the large
> corps using the EPA to push the US toward patented molecules.
>
> Back when the CFC ban first loomed, everyone had visions of $1000
> conversions of R-12 systems to R-134a and everyone was going to get
> rich. MACS (mobile air conditioning society), the lobbying group for
> this bunch did a pretty good job of cooking the government books, at
> least for awhile. EPA let the MACS president write the "Green card"
> regulations, the ones that require you to get a card in order to buy
> freon. MACS also slid a little jewel in the regs that banned the use
> of homemade refrigerant recovery units. Using the chimera of safety,
> they stuck in language that required recovery units to be UL approved.
> Another case where everyone profits except the ones paying the bills -
> the end users. Really dirty politics.
>
> Anyway, MACS was terrified of George and me and a few others working
> on hydrocarbon refrigerants. This MACS prez told George at an ASHRAE
> meeting that MACS would do whatever was necessary to keep hydrocarbons
> and his R-406a off the market. They succeeded fairly well but that's
> another story.
>
> Anyway, MACS mounted a massive legislative hysteria campaign with the
> aim of banning hydrocarbons because, you guessed it, SAFETY. They
> even distributed an ABC Exploding Gas Tank level of fraudulence video
> tape purporting to show a station wagon blowing up from a "hydrocarbon
> refrigerant leak". That they'd rigged the wagon with a 20 lb propane
> tank only came out later.
>
> They managed to get laws passed in 14 states that banned commerce in
> hydrocarbon refrigerants. Unfortunately, Florida being one of 'em.
> They need good refrigeration probably as much as anyone. I don't
> recall the other 13 states but George could tell you. He's was at
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] last time we chatted.
>
> Here are the actual facts. Isobutane is about half the density of
> R-12. That means it takes only about half as much on a mass basis to
> fill a given system as it did R-12. A large system that might hold
> 3.5 lbs of R-12 only needs about 1.75 lbs of isobutane. This is, of
> course, sealed inside a closed system.
>
> Isobutane/propane is also known as A-10. This is the designation
> given to the blend that drops right in to replace R-12 as an aerosol
> propellant. A-10 is one of the most common aerosol propellants in use
> today. A typical can of spray paint or deodorant is from 1/2 to 3/4
> propellant. That means that a can of paint that weighs maybe a pound
> and a half contains up to a pound of A-10. This is contained in a
> foil-thin steel can with rolled edges.
>
> A couple of cans of spray paint in the front seat contain as much A-10
> as the AC does. Yet no one gives them any thought while according to
> MACS, one will die a horrible fiery death if even a whiff of
> hydrocarbon is put into a sealed AC system. But those aerosol cans
> are OK. I could go on for pages but you get the idea. Isobutane is
> safe and effective but technically it's illegal to sell as a
> refrigerant in some states.
>
> > If you can adapt which would be better to start with, a window
AC or
> >and Auto AC?
> > What would be involved?
>
> Definitely start with an R-12/R-134a system. R-22 hermetic
> compressors don't work well in R-12 systems. I've tried but they
> invariably overheat and burn out.
>
> I'd definitely use a hermetic compressor. There are several
> approaches. Danfoss makes a line of DC-powered BLDC motored hermetic
> compressors. I don't know if they make one large enough for
> automotive use and their web site is so horrid that I couldn't tell.
> You might drop them a note.
>
> Another approach is to use a single phase compressor and an inverter.
> This isn't the most efficient approach but it might be the least
> expensive. It's something that you could whip up with cheap consumer
> parts.
>
> Probably the best approach would be a three phase compressor and a
> variable frequency drive. I expect this kind of single phase in, 3
> phase out drive to work like many SMPSs and work equally well on high
> voltage DC. Something off the shelf would probably work in 144 volt
> and up cars.
>
> One advantage of a VFD is that you could run the compressor faster
> than standard to get more refrigeration out of a given size
> compressor. That would save weight and space. I'd expect the
> compressor to behave similarly to conventional 3 phase motors. They
> don't generally object by overheating to higher speed operation. The
> sub-5 hp VFDs have gotten very inexpensive.
>
> If you can mitigate some of the greenhouse, perhaps with window
> tinting and maybe even e-glass for the windows, you could probably do
> the job with about 2 hp (approx 2 tons.) of refrigeration.
>
> The more condensing capacity you can provide, the better. Conventional
> cars are pretty lame in this area. The condenser is out there in
> front of the radiator, taking the full brunt of radiant heat from the
> radiator, especially when stationary.
>
> I've done some simple testing that involves nothing more than sticking
> some shiny aluminum sheet between the radiator and condenser of a car
> and seeing the evaporator exit temperature drops precipitously with no
> other changes. My GMC cube van has the AC condenser mounted below and
> to the side of the main radiator, complete with its own little fan.
> The condenser is less than a quarter the size of the one on my Caprice
> and yet the cooling capacity is similar.
>
> Mounting and ducting the condenser were it does not receive any
> sunlight and where the low pressure air behind the car aids air flow
> would work great on an EV without all that engine heat.
>
> There are other things you can do to minimize the amount of
> refrigeration needed. Insulating the car's interior is obvious.
> Refrigerating the seat, particularly in the lower back area is
> remarkable in the comfort it provides. ASHRAE says that if you can
> spot-cool the face, the upper chest and mid to lower back, the average
> person can be comfortable in quite high ambient temperatures.
>
> In my 280Z, I accomplished this by removing the seat cover, stitching
> and gluing small diameter tygon tubing on the inside of the area in
> contact with my back and re-installing the cover. The tubing received
> chilled glycol/water from a small liquid evaporator/heat exchanger
> installed upstream of the main AC evaporator. With the AC at full
> performance, the exit temperature of the glycol at the evaporator was
> in the freezing range. I included a 3-way manually operated tempering
> valve to control the seat temperature.
>
> The Z's OEM AC was very lame but with this one mod, it went from
> miserable to quite nice. I built a DC/DC converter to run the fan on
> up to 24 volts and installed a large GM compressor to round out the
> package. Finally, I insulated the glove box and installed some glycol
> coils to turn the glove box into a little refrigerator for a few cokes
> or whatnot. I was putting almost a hundred miles a day on the car
> back then so the glove box 'fridge and the cold seat were greatly
> appreciated.
>
> Other less dramatic but important improvements include insulating the
> lines from ambient heat and using a de-superheater. The later
> involves tightly thermally bonding the evaporator return line and the
> liquid supply line together. The cold refrigerant and residual liquid
> mist in the return line cools the liquid headed for the evaporator
> down to about the evaporator temperature.
>
> When hot liquid refrigerant expands into the evaporator, the first
> increment of refrigeration is used cooling the liquid itself down to
> the ambient temperature inside the evaporator. In very hot weather
> where the liquid might come out of the condenser at 120-140 degrees
> and with an evaporator temperature of 35-40 degrees, most of the
> refrigeration goes to cooling the liquid and little is left for
> cooling air.
>
> OTOH, if the liquid is cooled to near the evaporator ambient,
> essentially the heat of vaporization goes to cooling air. If the evap
> is at 40 degrees and 40 degree liquid is expanded into the evaporator,
> all of the refrigeration goes to cooling air.
>
> The two usual methods of desuperheating are to bond the suction and
> liquid lines together, say, by silver soldering or to run one inside
> the other. The later is what I did with my Z. I ran 3/8" soft copper
> liquid line inside 1-1/4" soft copper suction line and insulated the
> line with tubular foam. Less than 3 feet of this assembly completely
> desuperheated the liquid. The concentric tube heat desuperheater is
> more efficient but the soldered-tube assembly is sometimes easier to
> do if many bends are involved.
>
> If you decide to go with R-134a, be sure to use POL oil. There are
> two types of oil for R-134a, PAG (poly alkyl glycol) and POL (Polyol
> ester). PAG is a first cousin to brake fluid. It isn't very slick,
> is hygroscopic, breaks down in the presence of water and also breaks
> down in the presence of even a few PPM free chlorine. PAG was the
> first oil and is the reason R-12 retrofits were going to be so
> expensive. Every trace of the old R-12 had to be removed which meant
> new hoses, new dryer and flushing of the metal parts.
>
> POL came along later. It's slightly hygroscopic, a little more
> slippery than PAG but is not harmed by water or chlorine. This
> lubricant is what enabled the little $50 retrofit kits that you see in
> the parts stores. Just recover the R-12, change out the filter/dryer,
> charge with POL and R-134a and away you go.
>
> PAG was a disaster in early OEM systems. Its lubricity was so poor
> that compressors failed right and left. POL saved the day. You can
> now buy hermetic compressors precharged with POL.
>
> If you decide to go with a motor-driven automotive compressor, I've
> found Sanden compressors to be the most durable and quite efficient. I
> use the SD series in all my conversions and upgrades. Sanden lets
> their application engineers talk to individuals and not just megacorp
> types.
>
> I'd look very closely at hermetic, preferably scroll compressors
> before I went with a car unit. Scrolls are very efficient and quiet
> and the tall, small diameter form factor should make it easy to mount
> in a car. As important as any other characteristic in a car
> environment, a scroll is easy to start with minimal inrush - important
> for an inverter application.
>
> Oh, before I forget, isobutane is available as high altitude camping
> fuel in convenient 1 lb cans that fit an R-12 blow-off can
> side-piercing valve nicely. NOT the propane/butane blend but the pure
> isobutane version. MSR is the brand that I buy locally. MSR product
> number 322012.
>
> Well, that should be enough of a brain dump to get you going. Feel
> free to ask more questions if you like.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
>
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