EV Digest 5436
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: The big debate. Gearbox or not with an AC motor.
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Hot solenoid
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) instrument wire shielding
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: The big debate. Gearbox or not with an AC motor.
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: The big debate. Gearbox or not with an AC motor.
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Hot solenoid
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: DIY air-conditioning
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: The big debate. Gearbox or not with an AC motor.
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: New EV Album is Up
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: DIY air-conditioning
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV Charging station
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: The big debate. Gearbox or not with an AC motor.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: DIY air-conditioning
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Series and Parallel
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV Charging station
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Zilla DAQ 4 mode questions or how to graph a race?
by "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Does the following make sense?
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: DIY air-conditioning
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: EV Charging station
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: EV Charging station
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: DIY air-conditioning
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: DIY air-conditioning
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: DIY air-conditioning
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: DIY air-conditioning
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 5/2/06, Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
While a Minor is a tiny car, my buddy's smallish Saturn did 150-170
wh/mile last night to and from dinner as shown on the real time
display. It weighs 3400lbs. If your minor comes in at around 2200 lbs,
you should get even better mileage so you won't need a very large
pack.
Weight has very little impact on range, in fact.
Especially since 70mph motorway driving is being discussed,
aerodynamics and vehicle size are far more important.
The heavier the pack the more weight you are carrying, the
shorter your range.
The heavier the pack, the more energy is stored in it (for a given
chemistry) and therefore the range will be *longer* (until the vehicle
collapses under the weight).
Obviously it's beneficial in plenty of ways to keep the weight of any
car down, but let's be accurate about the reasons.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are you sure that heat is coming from the main pack current?
I'd suspect that the heat is coming from the low voltage coil.
Easy way to tell. Disconnect the main pack power lead from the coil and
then turn on the keyswitch so the contactor engages. Leave it on for
about the same amount of time that you would be driving it and check to
see if it's hot.
If it's hot, then all you are loosing is power from your accessory battery
and that won't effect range. If you are concerned about it, you can add a
coil economizer circuit to reduce the power used by the contactor's coil.
> The way my Comuta-Van is currently set up, my Curtis controller is
> connected
> to the power circuit by turning the key, which in turn engages a solenoid.
> The solenoid connects the controller to the battery pack. The charging
> pigtail is also attached to the (+) side of the solenoid and the (-) side
> is
> connected to the controller where the (-) side of the battery connects to
> it.
>
> The (+) side of the battery pack is connected to one side of the solenoid
> and the appropriate lead on the motor controller is connected to the other
> side. Then of course, the solenoid has 2 smaller leads connected to ground
> and the (+) side of my accessory battery via the keyswitch.
>
> After a normal commute, I've traced the power cables hand-over-hand to
> check
> for hot spots and this is now the only one. The solenoid gets pretty hot.
> I
> cannot keep my hand on it for more than 5-10 seconds. I feel that this is
> a
> point of loss in the circuit. The solenoid is kind of small...perhaps as
> small as a child's fist.
>
> Does anyone have a recommendation for a heavier duty solenoid that would
> not
> have so much loss or perhaps a different solution altogether? I don't feel
> that anything is in danger of melting down but I know that heat=
> waste/loss
> and I hate to limit the circuit and possibly my performance or risk
> melting
> something.
>
> Whatever the solution is, it needs to handle 72 volts and at least 400
> amps.
>
> Thanks,
> Rich A.
> Maryland
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a cloud EV 'batman II' gage that I am preparing to install the
wiring for. The signal wiring (B+, B-, shunt +, shunt -) is carried by
a supplied cable sporting 2 twisted pair, each pair with a foil shield
and drain wire. The meter has separate wires for 12V power for memory
and lighting.
Any thoughts on what to ground the shields/drain wire to? I wouldn't
want to attach it at a high voltage connection, as it runs through the
cabin to the gage.
Thanks in advance!
David Brandt
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Evan Tuer wrote:
>>Weight has very little impact on range, in fact.
This is incorrect.
Car weight does has a lot to do with the range. If a person does a lot of
stop and go driving, acceleration of the mass of the vehicle takes energy -
quite a bit of energy. Also, if the person lives in a hilly area, lifting
the mass up a hill takes a lot of energy. Both of these situations affect
the range of the vehicle.
I suppose if a person lived in a very flat area, and only drove on a freeway
with no stops, the mass of the vehicle would only be a factor in the initial
acceleration of the car.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Evan Tuer
Sent: May 2, 2006 8:32 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: The big debate. Gearbox or not with an AC motor.
On 5/2/06, Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> While a Minor is a tiny car, my buddy's smallish Saturn did 150-170
> wh/mile last night to and from dinner as shown on the real time
> display. It weighs 3400lbs. If your minor comes in at around 2200 lbs,
> you should get even better mileage so you won't need a very large
> pack.
Weight has very little impact on range, in fact.
Especially since 70mph motorway driving is being discussed, aerodynamics and
vehicle size are far more important.
> The heavier the pack the more weight you are carrying, the shorter
> your range.
The heavier the pack, the more energy is stored in it (for a given
chemistry) and therefore the range will be *longer* (until the vehicle
collapses under the weight).
Obviously it's beneficial in plenty of ways to keep the weight of any car
down, but let's be accurate about the reasons.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neither one of us is wrong.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 5/2/06, Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > While a Minor is a tiny car, my buddy's smallish Saturn did 150-170
> > wh/mile last night to and from dinner as shown on the real time
> > display. It weighs 3400lbs. If your minor comes in at around 2200 lbs,
> > you should get even better mileage so you won't need a very large
> > pack.
>
> Weight has very little impact on range, in fact.
> Especially since 70mph motorway driving is being discussed,
> aerodynamics and vehicle size are far more important.
>
> > The heavier the pack the more weight you are carrying, the
> > shorter your range.
>
> The heavier the pack, the more energy is stored in it (for a given
> chemistry) and therefore the range will be *longer* (until the vehicle
> collapses under the weight).
>
> Obviously it's beneficial in plenty of ways to keep the weight of any
> car down, but let's be accurate about the reasons.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard Acuti wrote:
> The way my Comuta-Van is currently set up... The solenoid connects
> the controller to the battery pack. The solenoid gets pretty hot.
> The solenoid is kind of small...perhaps as small as a child's fist.
The original ComutaVan contactor controller had three contactors. One
was a big rectangular (3"x3"x8") DPDT 200amp 72v H-B (now Prestolite)
series/parallel switch. The second was a smaller rectangular (2"x2"x4")
200amp 72v SPST H-B for on/off switching. The third was a little round
can-type 36v 100a golf cart contactor that controlled the starting
resistor.
I'm guessing that whoever added the Curtis controller used one of the
old contactors as your on/off solenoid. Which one did he use? If he used
the little can-type solenoid, no wonder it overheats!
Even the larger H-B SPST contactor is marginal. Its original 200amp
continuous current rating was (barely) adequate with the 72v pack (my
ComutaVan drew 150 amps continuous at full speed).
The original large DPDT series/parallel contactor is your best choice.
You can parallel its two contacts to get a 400a 72v rating.
If you don't have this part, then I would suggest replacing the existing
solenoid with a properly rated contactor; for example an Algright SW200.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
John,
Thanks for the great info. My USE truck has the hardware installed for
ac just no compressor as it was optional. I'd love to have it
functional. Although I have 10 lbs of R-12 left from the old days, I'd
like to try what you described in my vehicle.
Just as a side thought: My Prizm (also a 94) was built for and sized for
R134a. The AC system is a sanden compressor coupled to a 300 volt BLDC
motor. It is extremely strong; better than the AC in the minivan even on
the hottest days sitting still.
You might want to give 134a a shot out of the box. I even converted my
944S to R134a without any real problems (note: do not use those crap-o
kits; they contain PAG oils which are problematic. POE oils seem to be a
better choice)
Chris
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you add more batterys you can go further.
If you put in the same capacity pack of a lighter chemistry, you can
go further.
So both points are valid, within their realm of practice.
Lighter weight chemistry's are not used alot due to expense.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Evan Tuer wrote:
> >>Weight has very little impact on range, in fact.
>
>
> This is incorrect.
>
> Car weight does has a lot to do with the range. If a person does a
lot of
> stop and go driving, acceleration of the mass of the vehicle takes
energy -
> quite a bit of energy. Also, if the person lives in a hilly area,
lifting
> the mass up a hill takes a lot of energy. Both of these situations
affect
> the range of the vehicle.
>
> I suppose if a person lived in a very flat area, and only drove on a
freeway
> with no stops, the mass of the vehicle would only be a factor in the
initial
> acceleration of the car.
>
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Evan Tuer
> Sent: May 2, 2006 8:32 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: The big debate. Gearbox or not with an AC motor.
>
> On 5/2/06, Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > While a Minor is a tiny car, my buddy's smallish Saturn did 150-170
> > wh/mile last night to and from dinner as shown on the real time
> > display. It weighs 3400lbs. If your minor comes in at around 2200
lbs,
> > you should get even better mileage so you won't need a very large
> > pack.
>
> Weight has very little impact on range, in fact.
> Especially since 70mph motorway driving is being discussed,
aerodynamics and
> vehicle size are far more important.
>
> > The heavier the pack the more weight you are carrying, the shorter
> > your range.
>
> The heavier the pack, the more energy is stored in it (for a given
> chemistry) and therefore the range will be *longer* (until the vehicle
> collapses under the weight).
>
> Obviously it's beneficial in plenty of ways to keep the weight of
any car
> down, but let's be accurate about the reasons.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Very Very Nice!
Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi folks,
Some of you may have already noticed, but if not, the new improved EV
Album is up and running. Jerry Halstead has gone WAY beyond what I
could possibly have hoped for. He is magic with the code. He is the
only reason this was able to happen at all.
Despite all the changes, if you linked to your old page, the link still works.
I am sure there are still a few kinks to work out, and with that
much data we certainly must have some data errors. I am going to be
"tweaking" entries for quite some time.
The system now allows users to edit and update their own record,
upload their own images, and expedites new entry submissions. We
have improved the search functions, but the real system wide search
is not on-line yet. We have also mapped the listed EVs as best we
can, don't worry, we didn't give out the latitude and longitude of
your house, just your town. A rather neat new function is the
ability to add captions for each picture. Obviously, at this point
most don't have them.
If you have submitted an entry to the Album and it has never been
posted, please drop me a note off list, don't submit it again. Those
pending entries are already there, they are just hidden from public
gaze at the moment.
Anyway, please bear with us, I am sure there are going to be some
teething problems. If you run into anything, or have a question,
just drop me a note off list.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey
Webmaster
EV Photo Album
http://evalbum.com
---------------------------------
Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo!
Messenger with Voice.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is the Saden compressor what came with the Prizm stock from USE? I'd
love to have one!
Your truck should have most of the ac hardware too.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mike Phillips wrote:
> > John,
> >
> > Thanks for the great info. My USE truck has the hardware installed for
> > ac just no compressor as it was optional. I'd love to have it
> > functional. Although I have 10 lbs of R-12 left from the old days, I'd
> > like to try what you described in my vehicle.
>
> Just as a side thought: My Prizm (also a 94) was built for and sized
for
> R134a. The AC system is a sanden compressor coupled to a 300 volt BLDC
> motor. It is extremely strong; better than the AC in the minivan
even on
> the hottest days sitting still.
>
> You might want to give 134a a shot out of the box. I even converted my
> 944S to R134a without any real problems (note: do not use those crap-o
> kits; they contain PAG oils which are problematic. POE oils seem to
be a
> better choice)
>
> Chris
>
>
> > Mike
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph Merwin wrote:
> Remember that outlets above 120v that are intended for EV charging
> stations may have to meet the requirements of NEC Article 625 that
> requires any parts once made alive to be completely inaccessible.
> This rules out almost any connector you can buy at Home Depot.
^^^^^^
Not "almost". It rules out EVERY existing connector except the Avcon and
Magnecharge systems.
This is the *big* advantage to Neon John's suggestion to bill them as RV
connectors, or (for places that have winter) as ICE block heater
outlets. It side-steps the silly NEC 625 regulations. Joe Public will
view RV/ICE heater outlets far more favorably than EV-only outlets,
because he can imagine using them himself.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> In general*....Since horspower is (torque*rpm)/5252 we can trade
> size of motor(=torque) for rpm.
Not quite; motors just convert electrical energy into mechanical energy.
Cram more electricity in, get more horsepower out.
Size of motor basically determines how *long* it can deliver a given
amount of horsepower.
> AC motors are spinners, DC motors ar grunters.
That's a good summary!
You can build any motor (AC or DC) for any rpm, or any torque. It just
turns out that it's easier to make high-rpm, low-torque AC motors, and
easier to make low-rpm, high-torque brushed DC motors.
> The torque curve is flat on AC motors which means a multispeed
> gearbox is not recommended. (also lugging an AC induction motor
> is difficult on rotor heating)
Now you're treating special cases as if they represent *all* cases.
You can't talk about the torque or speed limitations of any motor
without including the voltage and current limitations of the power
supply, and the controller being used.
The motors you find in EVs (both AC and DC) have constant torque because
of the *controllers*! From 0 to some rpm, the controller is in current
limit (to protect itself); therefore the motor delivers constant torque.
> Compare that to the series DC motor with a steep curve giving lots
> more torque at start (where we need it) but dropping off as speed
> increases and a speed limit on the commutator, you can see why a
> 2 or 3 speed (and reverse) gearbox is needed.
The very high starting torque of a DC series motor is only there if the
controller has an extremely high current limit (or, if there *is* no
controller; just a big switch to the batteries).
If you *do* have one of these 1000-amp controllers, then you don't need
a transmission either. Essentially all purpose-built EVs have no
transmission, regardless of whether they use AC or DC motors.
All your graphs need to be corrected to show how they look with a
controller, like this:
> AC Induction motor (with controller)
> torque
> |
> |
> |
> |******************
> | *
> |__________________ *____speed
>
> Series wound
> torque
> |*********
> | *
> | *
> | *
> | *
> |_____________*__________speed
Notice that the shape of the curves are identical. All that happens
(with typical motors and controllers) is that the AC motor has half the
torque and twice the rpm. The horsepower works out the same, because
torque x rpm = horsepower.
> * generally what we find available to us. Almost any charactristic
> can be done in any motor type.
Exactly! It's usually the controller that determines the exact shape of
these curves. The motor just sets the ultimate limits on absolute
maximum torque and speed (for one second, before the motor blows up)!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
Is the Saden compressor what came with the Prizm stock from USE? I'd
love to have one!
Yes, though it looks like a US_Electricar hack. Motor is mated directly
to the compressor and the whole thing is bolted to a thin metal plate
bolted to the bottom of the car under/left of the motor.
The BLDC controller is in a homemade box with heat fins attached right
against the radiator. Seems to work well enough.
Your truck should have most of the ac hardware too.
Yup. Everything's there, just closed off. I just need to find a 300 volt
type motor and run a generic compressor off a belt.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Pestka, Dennis J" wrote:
> Can the wiring of the batteries be set up to accomplish this?
> For example with a 120V system, you have a way to start with 60V
> at twice the amps, and then switch to 120V? Can this be done?
Sure! This technique was invented over 100 years ago, and still used
today in simple EVs. Basically, big switches are used to rewire the
batteries in various series/parallel combinations to accomplish their
speed control.
For example, if you have twelve 6v batteries, they can be wired for:
6v (all in parallel)
12v (six parallel strings of 2 batteries each)
18v (four parallel strings of 3 batteries each)
24v (three parallel strings of 4 batteries each)
36v (two parallel strings of 6 batteries each)
72v (all in series)
To save money and keep it simple, not all steps are provided. Speed
control is rather jerky, but workable.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 09:00:24PM -0500, Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Jeff wrote:
>
> >EV1.1 20A 110V circuit. GFI protected, in site reset.
>
> I think this should utilize a standard 3 prong plug.
Agreed.
>
> >EV1.2 ??A 208/220V this is the question mark, what plug what amperage,
> Avcon?
>
> No Avcon. It should be something common, readily available, and
> prevalent.
http://www.avconev.com/
If you look above, it is readily available and cheap.
Avcon is GFCI protected, had conductors that are hard to touch, has a path
for something like 5 pins of data lines, and has two large conductor positions
for higher power charging.
Why are people down on Avcon?
If you have a 50 amp bladed plug, it's going to ware out, and people can shock
themselves fairly easily. Seems like a bad idea.
Just from my point of view.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey everyone,
Sorry for the late follow-up on this topic, but I've been busy with major
repairs (oh, no!) to the Joule Injected Nissan. I'm only just now catching
up on back posts, and after this, I'll detail in another post all the "fun"
that's been going on with the 240SX.
It seems that there are quite a few people interested in reviewing and/or
creating a graphing program for their Zilla DAQ4 output files. Shawn and I
at SEVO have been working on one for what seems an eternity. Originally, it
was mostly in support of our own projects, but now that it's a bit more
refined, we'll be posting it on the suncoast.net site as a freebie download
for everyone in another two or three days (depending on my EV repair
progress!).
In the meantime, we've thrown several screen shots of the application on the
site at http://www.suncoast.net/fastrack.htm We'll add narrative text on the
site, maybe later tonight, but for now, you can use the following
descriptions of the screens:
1. After launching the program (sorry Otmar and other Mac users, it only
works on a PC), the file selection and setup screen appears. You specify the
text file that contains your Zilla HEX data, Z1K or Z2K and whether or not
you'd like to ouput all the converted data to an Excel spreadsheet.
2. Next, if you chose to create the Excel file, you must specify the name
and location of the output file (.xls).
3. The third screen shot shows the main interface with a popup help window.
By default, none of the controller parameters are displayed.
4. The fourth shot is the fun part. The graph auto scales the axes based on
the parameters you select. Time, on the X-axis, defaults to the entire run,
but you can double-click the initial and final values to concentrate on a
small portion of the run. RPM, Duty Cycle % and Battery Volts are selected,
so both Y-axes scale to accommodate the largest value on each Y-axis. As
with the X-axis, you can zoom in on a particular Y-value range on both axes.
In this example, you can see RPM peaking at 5500 RPM, while battery volts
dropped from just over 300 to about 165 (poor Orbitals!). Duty cycle pegs at
100% soon after launch, and you can see the perfectly executed automatic
shift to parallel mode by the Hairball. The duty cycle plot shown has been
changed to a heavier weight, and you can modify other plot characteristics,
as shown in the little popup windows next to the legend.
5. The last shot is the Excel spreadsheet showing all the HEX values
converted to DEC. In this example, the portion of the run just up to and
including the shift to parallel is displayed. The highlighted cell shows the
code I like to call "GOin' For Parallel!" (GOFP). Anyway, you can use the
spreadsheet for building custom graphs, calculating power, etc.
We'd love to get feedback from everyone, especially after people have had a
chance to use it. (Hmmm . . .the ability to specify temperature scale--Deg.
F or C would be nice). Shawn or I will let everyone know in a future post
when the compiled executable is available for grabbin'.
Hope you like it!
Matt Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Ciciora [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 2:17 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Zilla DAQ 4 mode questions or how to graph a race?
Hello!
I'm in a similar situation as you were (I assume) and Mark was: I'd like
to make a Zilla Data Acq.
system, but I currently don't have access to my zilla (I will in about 1.5
weeks). Any chance do you have a sample DAQ4 mode data file you wouldn't
mind sending me?
Thanks!
Steven Ciciora
--- Claudio Natoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> > I'm trying to hack together a "quick and dirty"
> race performance
> > graphing app for Woodburn. I've got a 10oz
> embedded computer that
> > gathers data from a hairball and a 3 axis
> accelerometer and
> > then tries to present that information in some
> useful format post race
> > via a built in webserver (ok, its overkill, but I
> had all the stuff handy)
>
> I wrote up something similar, and hit Otmar up for the DAQ4 details
> already. I doubt Otmar will mind me jumping in here...
>
>
> > (If someone can supply me with about 20 seconds of
> DAQ4 output taken
> > from a working car accelerating away from a
> stoplight that would be very
> > helpful. Just do a capture to a text file and mail
> it to me.)
>
> I have this already, but can't find them. If you give me a day or two
> I'll find/redo one for you.
>
> In any case, here's what I've got FWIW:
>
> > DrivePot: Seems obvious, I expect its either the
> raw ADC data
> > from the throttle pot, or maybe a 0-100% value.
>
> There is some offset at 0% (x42 iirc), and then about 1.5 bits per %.
> Easy to work out if you've got a working hairball.
>
>
> > Speed1: I think in this context Speed is motor
> rpm, since the
> > Zilla has only one vehicle speed input and there
> is Speed1,
> > and Speed2 values in other DAQ output.
>
> RPM for Motor 1 (the Hairball has two motor speed inputs). 1 bit per
> 100 RPM.
>
>
> > ArmatureCurrent: Motor loop current? Seems kinda
> odd to
> > label it Armature.
>
> 5 Amps/bit for Z1K. 10 Amps/bit for Z2K.
>
>
> > ZCurrentLimit: I expect this is normally a static
> (and uninteresting)
> > value but it may drop as heat sink temp increases.
>
> Correct. As above.
>
>
> > ArmDC: no idea
>
> Armature Duty Cycle. I think the 0-100% range is represented by 0 -
> 252 (ie. x00 - xfc).
>
>
> > BatteryVoltage: obvious
> > MotorVoltage: obvious
>
> 1.75390625 volts / bit.
>
>
> > HeatSinkTemp: obvious, but would this be
> interesting enough
> > to plot on the final graph?
>
> Otmar has this as a lookup iirc, but I believe it works out to be:
>
> Temp (degC) = DAQ value * 0.575757... - 1.3
>
> Cheers,
> Claudio
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Ankers writes:
>
> Regarding EVs right now, the follow equation seems to make sense to me:
>
> 1. Range
> 2. ICE equivalent performance
> 3. Costs less than a small family home
>
> Chose only two of the above.
Doesn't hold true for me. My Geo Prizm gets 35 miles per charge, and I
use about half of that to get to work (where I can recharge). Most of
my driving is less than 20 miles per charge, so "Range" isn't an issue.
My Prizm can go 70+ on the freeway and accelerate uphill while doing so.
So "ICE equivalent performance" isn't an issue.
As for cost, don't we all wish we could buy a small family home for less
than $20,000!
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Neon John,
I noticed that you appear to know a little about AC. ;-)
Maybe you could help me troubleshoot my system. I have very little experience
with AC but do
understand the basic concepts. But first a little background.
I recently acquired a 1993 Soleq EVCort. It has dual hermetically sealed
compressors that run off
of 120VAC from an 85-130VDC to 120VAC inverter. The battery pack is 108V
nominal. Both in the
manual and on a small tag on the low pressure port it specifically says that it
is a R-12 system.
When I first got the car I just tried to see if the AC worked at all and
despite all the knob
twisting and button pushing I got nothing out of it. After studying the manual
a bit I took a
little risk and decided to poke around with a voltmeter to see that the
switches and relays and so
on worked. I finally decided to direct jumper from the wall outlet to the input
of the compressors
and after a few sparks from the initial surge the compressors hummed right
along. I didn't run
them very long, but at least I knew that they were not frozen. Then I ran down
to the local
Wal-Mart and got one of those R-134a retrofit kits, put on the adapter to the
low pressure port
and after running the compressor a little with the jumper method I charged a
bit of the R-134a
into the system figuring that it was just low on refrigerant.
Lo and behold after taking a little bit of the refrigerant now it will cycle on
it's own. However,
when I have the pressure gauge and the can of refrigerant hooked up the
pressure on the low side
goes up to over 100 (in the red on the dial) but when the compressor kicks on
then it quite
rapidly goes down to under 50 and at that moment it shuts off. I assume this is
from the low
pressure sensor. So it just sits there and cycles like that about 20 seconds
off and about 5
seconds on and does not get cold.
Now I hope I haven't hurt anything by trying the DIY R-134a charge. I did *not*
remove the old
refrigerant (if there was any). What do you suggest I do? Should I go to some
AC technician and
have them flush the system and start over with the R-134a conversion? Could the
orifice be
blocked? I also read in your previous post that the dryer should be changed.
I am currently waiting on a new set of batteries for it and want to get some
new wheels and tires
( I think a will make a separate post on that one) so this is just one other
thing I could do to
get it completely restored and functioning 100%.
Regards,
Chet Fields
--- Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, 2 May 2006 01:05:07 -0700 (MST), "Peter VanDerWal"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >> EVs have it a little better because of lack of engine heat but 22 is
> >> still a bad choice for mobile AC. An R-134a or even better,
> >> hydrocarbon (isobutane or a mix of isobutane and propane) is much more
> >> suitable.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> The IEC309 look pretty good, Isther an industry they are used in that
> would mke them available around town, in case people drive over their
> plug or something?
They are used in industrial applications, and should be available from
local electrical wholesalers, just not your typical big box store
catering to the home reno crowd.
I think one of their more common applications is temporary power setups
(carnivals, fairs, etc.).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> Not "almost". It rules out EVERY existing connector except
> the Avcon and Magnecharge systems.
Are you sure? The IEC 309 male plug has completely shrouded pins so
that they are inaccessible as they are inserted into the female socket.
The literature suggests that the connectors are available with a
mechanical disconnect means that prevents the female connector from
being powered up until a male plug is fully inserted, and likewise
prevents the removal of the male plug until the power has been removed
from the female half:
<http://www.ericson.com/products/product_pdfs/IEC309Devices.pdf>
The section on mechanical interlocks says:
"Ericson Mechanical Interlocks combine a disconnect switch and
receptacle into one device that eliminates the making and breaking of
plug and receptacle under load. The safety mechanism within the
enclosure prevents the switch from being turned to the "ON" position
until the plug is fully inserted into the receptacle. Once fully
engaged, the plug is locked into place when the switch is turned on and
cannot be removed until the switch is turned to the "OFF" position. This
prevents making or breaking the circuit under load. Ericson mechanical
interlocks are also available
with optional circuit breaker (see inset photo)."
There is also a note about an electrical interlock means that is built
into all IEC 309 connectors rated 60A or higher, though it is not clear
if this is simply a last-to-make/first-to-break staggered pin
arrangement or something that removes power from all contacts in the
female half.
This mechanical interlock may not be quite as slick as the electrical
pilot signal of the Avcon, but it seems that all of the interlock
additional cost is on the charging station/receptacle side as there is
nothing to suggest that anything other than a standard male half is
required from the user's EV.
I think a charge station connector system that has the charge station
providing a female socket rather than a cord with some sort of plug on
it is going to be much less vulnerable to vandalism, and the only
downside of the IEC 309 mechanical interlock would be that someone could
disconnect power from your EV while it is chargin unattended. However,
even with the electrical pilot signal of the Avcon there is nothing to
prevent a passerby from unplugging the paddle from your car.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is the USE compressor/motor Horizontal or Vertical? Got any pics?
Is the homemade box also from USE?
It looks like the Solectria folks have theirs mounted on a piece of
angle with a belt.
I can't wait to shorten my range some more :)
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mike Phillips wrote:
> > Is the Saden compressor what came with the Prizm stock from USE? I'd
> > love to have one!
>
> Yes, though it looks like a US_Electricar hack. Motor is mated directly
> to the compressor and the whole thing is bolted to a thin metal plate
> bolted to the bottom of the car under/left of the motor.
>
> The BLDC controller is in a homemade box with heat fins attached right
> against the radiator. Seems to work well enough.
>
> > Your truck should have most of the ac hardware too.
>
> Yup. Everything's there, just closed off. I just need to find a 300
volt
> type motor and run a generic compressor off a belt.
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
Is the USE compressor/motor Horizontal or Vertical? Got any pics?
Flat actually. I don't have any pics, but will take some the next time I
have the controller out.
Is the homemade box also from USE?
I assume so; it looks pretty homemade, as opposed to a commercial
controller. No markings on the outside and I'm reluctant to open it up
and play with it.
I can't wait to shorten my range some more :)
AC really does not impact range much. I pull about 5amps extra for the
AC (1,500 watts) which is less than the heater and over 30 minute drive
it will shorten your range by 2 miles. Not that big of a deal.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FYI from the Acfourm
Minimum requirements for converting a system to R134a.
If system has any refrigerant R12 left in the system it must be reclaimed by
an approved recovery machine.
Accumulator/drier must be replaced with an R134a compatible replacement.
Conversion fittings and label must be added to the system. Label should have
the amount of R134a used and quantity and oil type listed. If vehicle is not
equipped with a high pressure cut off switch it must be added.
That is the required minimum! Flushing the system to remove the mineral oil
and debris should also be done. R134a and mineral oil do not work well
together so leaving it in the system with R134a is not recommended! O-rings
should be replaced with either NBR or HNBR replacements. Adjustment of the
pressure cycling switch may also be needed to achieve the best performance.
In some cases an upgrade of the condenser may be required to achieve the
original performance.
There are many different suggestions when charging a R12 system with R134a.
System must be evacuated before starting the charging procedure. I suggest
you start with about 70 percent of the original R12 charge and add an ounce
at a time until vent and pressure readings reach the best available results.
Remember it is easy to over charge a system with R134a so patience is
important.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chet Fields
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 3:29 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: DIY air-conditioning
Hello Neon John,
I noticed that you appear to know a little about AC. ;-)
Maybe you could help me troubleshoot my system. I have very little
experience with AC but do understand the basic concepts. But first a little
background.
I recently acquired a 1993 Soleq EVCort. It has dual hermetically sealed
compressors that run off of 120VAC from an 85-130VDC to 120VAC inverter. The
battery pack is 108V nominal. Both in the manual and on a small tag on the
low pressure port it specifically says that it is a R-12 system.
When I first got the car I just tried to see if the AC worked at all and
despite all the knob twisting and button pushing I got nothing out of it.
After studying the manual a bit I took a little risk and decided to poke
around with a voltmeter to see that the switches and relays and so on
worked. I finally decided to direct jumper from the wall outlet to the input
of the compressors and after a few sparks from the initial surge the
compressors hummed right along. I didn't run them very long, but at least I
knew that they were not frozen. Then I ran down to the local Wal-Mart and
got one of those R-134a retrofit kits, put on the adapter to the low
pressure port and after running the compressor a little with the jumper
method I charged a bit of the R-134a into the system figuring that it was
just low on refrigerant.
Lo and behold after taking a little bit of the refrigerant now it will cycle
on it's own. However, when I have the pressure gauge and the can of
refrigerant hooked up the pressure on the low side goes up to over 100 (in
the red on the dial) but when the compressor kicks on then it quite rapidly
goes down to under 50 and at that moment it shuts off. I assume this is from
the low pressure sensor. So it just sits there and cycles like that about 20
seconds off and about 5 seconds on and does not get cold.
Now I hope I haven't hurt anything by trying the DIY R-134a charge. I did
*not* remove the old refrigerant (if there was any). What do you suggest I
do? Should I go to some AC technician and have them flush the system and
start over with the R-134a conversion? Could the orifice be blocked? I also
read in your previous post that the dryer should be changed.
I am currently waiting on a new set of batteries for it and want to get some
new wheels and tires ( I think a will make a separate post on that one) so
this is just one other thing I could do to get it completely restored and
functioning 100%.
Regards,
Chet Fields
--- Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, 2 May 2006 01:05:07 -0700 (MST), "Peter VanDerWal"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >> EVs have it a little better because of lack of engine heat but 22
> >> is still a bad choice for mobile AC. An R-134a or even better,
> >> hydrocarbon (isobutane or a mix of isobutane and propane) is much
> >> more suitable.
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The underhood pics of the USE trucks made me think the compressor was
vertically oriented. But I've never seen one in person. It looks like
there is room for horizontal mounting. What does the controller do? I
thought just a contactor would work, but it may be a dc-dc converter.
Glad that the amps used is less than the heater. But 2 miles is 20% of
my current range ;)
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mike Phillips wrote:
> > Is the USE compressor/motor Horizontal or Vertical? Got any pics?
>
> Flat actually. I don't have any pics, but will take some the next
time I
> have the controller out.
>
> > Is the homemade box also from USE?
> I assume so; it looks pretty homemade, as opposed to a commercial
> controller. No markings on the outside and I'm reluctant to open it up
> and play with it.
>
> > I can't wait to shorten my range some more :)
> AC really does not impact range much. I pull about 5amps extra for the
> AC (1,500 watts) which is less than the heater and over 30 minute drive
> it will shorten your range by 2 miles. Not that big of a deal.
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
