EV Digest 5454
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Safe charging (Was Art. 625 etc.)
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Safe charging (Was Art. 625 etc.)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) tax laws
by Sharon G Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: New AC system option (was Re: Nissan AC conversion)
by "george.underwood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Contactor for 192 V and Zilla, Cableform A1200 questions
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) looking for "the lost cord" and avcon source
by elaine chiu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Regen question again :-(
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Loremo Hybrid?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: looking for doner car
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Need motor repairs, need local shop
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: looking for "the lost cord" and avcon source
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: looking for "the lost cord" and avcon source
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Safe charging (Was Art. 625 etc.)
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: looking for "the lost cord" and avcon source
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) RE: looking for "the lost cord" and avcon source
by "Will Beckett \(becketts\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) "70 amp battery isolator"
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: "70 amp battery isolator"
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Safe charging (Was Art. 625 etc.)
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: "70 amp battery isolator"
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) What a Good Crimp Looks Like
by Joel Silverman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Logos (was RE: sheilding for zilla wiring)
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: looking for "the lost cord" and avcon source
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: looking for "the lost cord" and avcon source
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, May 06, 2006 at 05:09:54AM -0400, Neon John wrote:
> On Sat, 6 May 2006 01:58:17 -0700 (MST), "Peter VanDerWal"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Here are /my/ thoughts on a safe EV charging scheme. Comments are
> >encouraged.
> >
> >1. Use a good quality standard 110/220V outlet.
>
> Nothing more than is being done now need be done.
I agree 100% for 110 charging.
> Yeah, a hot prong is exposed.
Perhaps this is why we should not write our own standards ;-)
> >
> >2. Use a GFCI???'nough said. Oh alright, use a 20ma GFCI if you are too
> >lazy to keep your batteries clean :D
>
> Rolls eyes. This would be a matter of doing something just to be
> doing something while trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
Or perhaps this is why?
> I curse every day that I've awakened sweating my
> 'nads off because the friggin GFI in the 20 amp convenience outlet
> that I had to use tripped because dew settled out on the power cable
> and plug overnight.
Clean up your power so you're not leaking more then 5ma.
> (Tip: Move the wires from the LINE to the LOAD terminals on the GFI.
Or perhaps this? :)
> >
> >5. Ventilation for flooded batteries is a good idea. Force ventilation of
> >the battery boxes is probably a good idea. Since hydrogen will rapidly
> >rise to the ceiling, provide it with a simple escape path near the ceiling
> >so it won't accumulate.
>
> Not really. It is VERY difficult to generate enough hydrogen to form
> an explosive mixture outside the batteries themselves.
>From www.mikeholt.com/documents/safety/pdf/messagefromfiremarshall.pdf:
"Thought some of you might be interested in this picture. It is a hydrogen
explosion in a UPS/battery room we had here in Sacramento this week. It is
a very good example of what happens if you lose ventilation in a battery
charging room. The explosion blew a 400+ sq.ft. hole in the root (notice
the sky above the picture), collapsed numerous walls and ceilings throughout
the building, and significantly damaged a large portion of the 50,000+ sq.ft.
building."
I though this was an interesting anecdote. You should download the PDF and
check out the pictures.
> When this pack is given its full periodic equalization charge, it
> sounds like a Jacuzzi in the battery room! Yet that hydrogen detector
> (NOT just an explosive gas detector but a hydrogen-specific detector)
> never moves off zero.
Sounds like they have the ventilation system sized correctly.
> I'm not posting to discourage anyone who wants to vent his pack from
> doing so. I'm simply offering objective information for why some
> silly standard should not be written into the rules. None of my packs
> are vented (other than what leaks in and out through cracks, of
> course) and in the case of my Citi, my 'nads are sitting on the lid of
> the main box :-)
Or perhaps this?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Most RC chargers have a common ground with the power source therefore you
would need an isolated 12 volt supply for each battery (if the battery under
charge is in a series string.)
Most RC chargers are set up for a single pack of NiCd, NiMH or Lithium. Some
will do PbA.
In order to do a long series string, you have the option of 1) unplugging
the module from the car and charging is separately, or 2) using multiple
isolated 12 volt sources.
1) In the Monster Garage car, it took nearly three hours to pull the ~300
modules, put them in one of the 200 1 hour charger stands, wait for each
battery to top off, remove them from the chargers, and install them back in
the car. It was a monster of a task.
2) When you use multiple isolated 12 volts sources, the cost goes up
considerably.
In case #1, if there is a bad charger, you can switch to another charger in
seconds.
In case #2, if there is a bad charger, you will probably not see it until
after a module is destroyed by reversal. In some cases there has been a fire
or explosion.
There has been a lot of discussion on the merits of both ideas on this list
over the years. You may want to search the archives.
Most people use a series charger because, 1) the price per watt is
reasonable, 2) if there is a failure, it is readily apparent, 3) there is
only one location to adjust when the battery ages or changes temperature.,
4) some chargers work on 240 as well as 120, 5) series chargers are
available in high wattage's.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 2:59 AM
Subject: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
> There must be a good reason why the following idea is not done:
>
> Instead of regulators for each battery in an EV, why not use individual
> chargers?
>
> I'm fairly clueless about these things so there will no doubt be a good
> reason, what made me think of this is I can buy RC chargers at $60 that do
> 12V lead-acid (and nicad, Li-po etc). The downside is they only charge at
5
> amps, so for 50AH battery, that's 10 hours (right?).
>
> They also run on 12v DC so would need a large power supply to power 20 of
> them - maybe that's a reason?
>
> Can someone inform me why this idea won't work? It's not a solution I
would
> implement, mainly because of pressing start on every one is error prone -
> all it takes is to miss starting one when charging and you would have
killed
> a battery. Certain chargers don't have this issue though.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why not using one powerful and reliable individual charger with multiple
relais connection to each batterie...seems familiar design...
:^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
> David Ankers wrote:
> > Instead of regulators for each battery in an EV, why not use individual
> > chargers?
>
> It's a good idea, and does work well if done properly. The main
> challenge is reliability. 10 chargers have 10 times the parts, and so
> 1/10th the reliability.
>
> A typical consumer-grade charger (like a $50 12v 15amp charger) is only
> built to be used a few times a year. It would last 10 years that way.
> But if you tried using 10 of them every day, you could have one fail
> every few months.
>
> The real problem comes when you drive off in the morning not knowing
> that one of your batteries didn't get charged. You'll destroy a battery
> before youy get to work!
>
> To make multiple chargers work, you need to a) use exceptionally
> reliable chargers, and b) provide some means to detect (and hopefully
> correct for) any failures BEFORE they destroy a battery.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> 1. Use a good quality standard 110/220V outlet.
> Some folks claim these might fail with in a few months of EV
> use :rolls eyes: If they can stand up to decades worth of
> RVs being plugged in and unplugged on a daily basis, then I
> think they can handle a few years of EV use.
Before you roll your eyes, you might want to dig up the rated mechanical
life of our typical North American AC connectors and do the math on how
quickly one would burn through their rated number of cycles in
applications that cycle them multiple times a day, 365 days a year.
I seriously doubt you will find an RV outlet that has lasted "decades"
of daily service.
> 3. Prevent inadvertent contact with live conductors.
> Seems to me that a standard extension cord already does
> this. I can't touch the live contacts inside the socket
> end unless I shove something metallic down them, and that
> certainly isn't "inadvertent".
You haven't considered that plugging in a standard North American style
blade connector is *exactly* deliberatly shoving something metallic into
those live contacts and extends them out where they are well exposed and
readily available for inadvertant contact.
UK plugs address this by having the current carrying pins insulated for
part of their length so that by time they contact the energised bits of
the receptacle there is no exposed metal to inadvertantly contact,
however, all common North American plugs are inadequate in this regard.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Guys. we have been trying to change the Fed tax laws, so far were makeing
progress. I am in Contact with the head of the Senate finance cometty to change
Tax laws, the head of the commity and me and my husband have been on the phone
and e-mails for 2 weeks so far, and as of now it looks good, Were trying to
change the "law" that would give all the conversions cost BACK,,meaning build
if for X amount of dollars ands you get that much back in the form of a income
tax return check.So if you look at the Fed income tax pages you'll see they
wont give any thing back for a conversion,,,but for a NEW built ,they will.
This what were trying to change.
What we need is for any of you to Contact us by E-mail and help. They
need any people that are building them as NEW..or converting them. With this
Info I can sent that to washington. so the laws can be changed. Me and my
husband are still building them in Ks. they have a 40% tax credit. More needs
to be done. if you want to help us, Please do, Thnaks Sharon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor:
I am finally getting around to doing some calcs on the Simovert 6SV-1 long
inverter 65VDC...160VDC input) and 1FV5104WS09 AC synchronous motor for the
88 Nissan Pulsar application. I have a couple of questions:
1. I cant find 1FV5104WS09 AC synchronous motor data (not even on metric
mind site). Who makes it? I would like data to plug into UVE's EV calculator
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/lab/8679/evcalc.html, including the
"Motor a,b,c,d,k,n" coefficients.
2. Siemens inverter manual gives inverter input range as: 110-350 DC
nominal. Your range in the ev list email said 65-160VDC. So im confused.
What is the 160V limit you gave? Is it tied to the motor itself? I would
like to investigate characteristics of different voltage ranges using the
calculator.
3. Question for anybody: Are there any other calculators or downloadable
spreadsheets I can try?
Any info appreciated
George Underwood
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 6:47 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: New AC system option (was Re: Nissan AC conversion)
George and all,
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Don't bother, that is way to much for that motor.
>
> Contact Victor at www.metricmind.com
>
> He sells brand new Seimens AC motors plus he has the mating controller
> with integrated DC-DC converter and contactors, plus he has shaft couplers
> if needed for his motors. I believe if you buy them from him, you will
> also get a warranty.
Yes, we offer 10 years warranty on all Siemens hardware.
> If you want to buy just the motor alone, he can
> probably beat that ebay price.
Sorry, no motors or inverters alone.
> Plus if you buy from Victor you get all of his knowledge and experience
> for free (heck of a deal).
Thanks Peter, will take it as a compliment :-)
> The other AC option is to buy a solectria motor and controller. I have a
> solectria setup, though I haven't ahd time to put it into anything yet.
> It's a very nice setup, but a little on the wimpy side. Should be ok for
> a lightweight EV. Solectria has larger motors available, but I think
> Victor offers a wider variety including even more powerful motors.
>
> I believe Shari Prange at Electro Automotive carries Solectria setups:
> http://www.electroauto.com/
If you want low (120-144V) AC setup for a compact commuter, here is
a deal:
All, there is an opportunity to get low voltage version of Siemens
AC system. Simovert 6SV-1 long inverter 65VDC...160VDC input) and
1FV5104WS09 AC synchronous motor. The motor has a max torque of 75 Nm
and a max motor speed of 6000 rpm. Max power of the system is
30...35kW then. It was used in City STROMer - OEM built (in Europe)
VW Golf.
Here you can see a photo of the STROMer: (third vehicle on the first row
of photos): http://www.metricmind.com/photo.htm.
With only 96VDC traction battery the system in STROMer
delivers 22 kW: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/160.html
While in Holland, I had a chance to drive this vehicle.
Granted, not a rocket, but very adequate for commuting needs.
This particular one uses lead acid 6V Dryfit batteries
so is a bit heavier than could have been if 12V batteries
would be used. Depends on your needs.
The long inverter contains inverter itself, 60A DC-DC converter
*and* main/precharge contactors all integrated into one unit.
If you haven't seen this photo, here is what a long 6SV-1 inverter
look like: http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/images/finished_full.jpg
(this is my vehicle). The main contactors are visible in this photo
(right side): http://www.metricmind.com/images/l_open.jpg
High integration level allows very simple setup and wiring.
No need to worry about DC-DC, contactors, reversing (if you want
reverse) etc. 2 cables DC in, 3 cables to motor out, one interface
plug for dash controls (will be supplied pre-wired). That's it.
High quality throttle pot is supplied as well.
You only connect "on switch", "start" pushbutton and forward/reverse
toggle switch. Diagnostic lamps (or LEDs) are optional.
Of course you get all the benefits of regen, electric reverse,
whole slew of programmable parameters. Read more about
inverter features here:
http://www.metricmind.com/features.htm or better yet download
installation manual: http://www.metricmind.com/data/man_w.pdf
The motor has flange face mating with VW tranny but of course
as with any adapter plate can be bolted to any tranny.
Good thing is you don't need the shaft coupler either:
the shaft already cones with OEM made hub ready to bolt
a flywheel to. Few photos of the motor:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
The motors have been in a few storages for a long time
(thus some rust and scratches from handling), but are
unused.
All systems will have full 10 years warranty.
The cost: few first systems (may be 10-15 or so) will be
sold for $4.6k everything: see it as $2.3k motor and $2.3k
inverter. Only together, preprogrammed to work together,
no fiddling please.
People often comment on the efficiency of a low voltage setups,
AC in particular. Here is a combined (motor+inverter) efficiency
map for this very system in OEM City STROMer.
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/efficiency_5104ws09.jpg
It shows that you should stay above 2000 RPM to get better
than 80% overall. See it as ~90% motor and ~90% inverter.
Please contact me off list if you have any questions, but I don't
have much more technical details than above. Serious inquiries
only please. The quote may change depending how fast these go, but
will be as specified for at least first 10 systems.
Thanks all,
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brad,
It seems that I copied the wrong email, here is the one I meant to copy. Sorry
for the confusion...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: 180 V Contactor
> Rush wrote:
>> What contactors should I use for a 180 V system? Where can I get
>> them? I want 2, one for the key switch and another for my Zilla.
>> One will be on the neg path (key) and the other on the pos path
>> (Zilla?) of the bat pack. My battery pack will be 30 Trojan T-125's.
>
> Roland Wiench wrote:
>> If you want the best contactor made, that is design for electric
>> vehicles, look at the A1200 DC Contactors that have 300 and 400
>> amps continuous with magnetic blows and accessories mounts for
>> microswitches. I pay about $400.00 for this contactor. They are
>> made by Cableform, Ltd., Gratrix Works, Gratrix Lane, Sowerby
>> Bridge, West Yorkshire, England HX6 2PH. State side distributor is:
>>
>> Cableform, Inc.
>> 8845 Three Notch Road
>> Troy, Virgina 22974-9512
>>
>> Tel: 804-589-8224
>> Fax: 804-589-3803
>
> Cableform makes great industrial-grade contactors. But, they are big and
> expensive, and probably more than you need for your EV.
>
> Despite the Zilla's breathtaking power capability, you aren't going to
> want to draw over 500 amps peak from your golf cart batteries, and your
> average battery current should certainly be kept under 250 amps. This
> will allow a much smaller contactor to be used without risk.
>
> Since you plan to have two contactors in series, I think you can use the
> Albright SW200 series. They are rated at 96vdc, 250amps continuous, 1500
> amps interrupting. The SW200 is a single, or the SW204 is a pair of
> these contactors. The Albrights are widely available from KTA, EVparts,
> etc.
>
> Just make sure that in the event of an emergency shutdown, BOTH
> contactors are turned off at the same time. Otmar can help you set up
> the Zilla this way.
> --
> Ring the bells that you can ring
> Forget your perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in
> -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Sorry for the confusion...
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hi guys.
does anyone have a copy of "the lost cord" by barbara taylor? I have
been searching for a copy for over 2 years and wondered if someone
would take theirs to a copy place and I'll pay for the book to be
copied and mailed to me.
second, is there a source still for avcon stations and plugs? I
tried their website, but seems the email and phone number are
disconnected. I wanted to put a charging station in front of the
house, but thought it was better to have something a bit "dummy
proof" so teenagers or other transients don't try to electricute
themselves. I emailed EV assoc. for used ones.
thanks for info.
elaine
berkeley, CA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's simple. YOu tie two wires to your pack. You build a unit with a
generator and tie it to your out put shaftt of your elecstric motor. It is
mechanically connected to the output shaft pull a lever to tighten the belt.
Or you make a Rub Goldberg device that hangs off the back of the vehicle.
It too is mechanically actuated by lever. Pull the lever and CHIRP.
Instant regen. I'm not sure if you could idle a generator off the output
shaft of your traction motor but if you could you could do regen
electrically and not mechanically. JUst some thoughts. LR.........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.loremo.com/daten_en.php I think it's a hybrid that uses a turbo
diesel power source and electric wheel motors to get over 100 mpg.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
CRAIGSLIST.
http://www.craigslist.org/cgi-bin/search?areaID=1&subAreaID=0&query=914+Porsche&catAbbreviation=sss
This is a search for the SF Bay area.
I did a Miami search and no luck. Cars last longer out here and are dirt
cheap.
http://tampa.craigslist.org/car/147557279.html did a tampa search and found
one. The ones in California average 1500 dollars. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 4:29 AM
Subject: looking for doner car
I have somebody you wants to convert a Porsche 914 , I'd like to find one
with a bad motor and good interior , is there a car wanted web site ? any
other ways of locating cars ? steve clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm in a bind. The C-Van motor broke a brush spring. It bounced around in
there and scored things up. I'm pretty sure the damage isn't too severe but
I'd like to pull it out and have it checked.
I'm ordering new brushes and I'd like to have the commutator cleaned up and
get new springs properly installed on the brushes. Any idea what this might
cost and does anyone know of a motor shop in Maryland that can handle it?
Thanks,
Rich A.
'81 Comuta Van
Maryland
_________________________________________________________________
Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Elaine,
Email the EAA. They have some avcon based stations.
Mike
--- elaine chiu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> hi guys.
>
> does anyone have a copy of "the lost cord" by barbara taylor? I have
>
> been searching for a copy for over 2 years and wondered if someone
> would take theirs to a copy place and I'll pay for the book to be
> copied and mailed to me.
>
> second, is there a source still for avcon stations and plugs? I
> tried their website, but seems the email and phone number are
> disconnected. I wanted to put a charging station in front of the
> house, but thought it was better to have something a bit "dummy
> proof" so teenagers or other transients don't try to electricute
> themselves. I emailed EV assoc. for used ones.
>
> thanks for info.
>
> elaine
> berkeley, CA
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
does anyone have a copy of "the lost cord" by barbara taylor?
508 pages... long book..
Some ordering info(don't know if it's still accurate)
http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/EVinfo/evbooks.html
Another address at the bottom of this page:
http://sloan.stanford.edu/EVonline/erakko.htm
You might also put a listing on here:
http://pages.ebay.com/wantitnow/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 6 May 2006 13:35:45 +0100, "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>On 5/6/06, Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Not really. It is VERY difficult to generate enough hydrogen to form
>> an explosive mixture outside the batteries themselves. Most "hydrogen
>> explosions", I think, end up being like the one reported here last
>> week, when something inside a cell arced and ignited trapped hydrogen.
>
>I've heard of at one definite "battery box" explosion in a conversion
>EV. With the lid of the box being blown off and causing damage. I
>agree that this seems very unlikely to happen in the much bigger and
>leakier space of a garage though.
I'd want more details before I'd believe that the explosion was
actually in the box. More likely a battery explosion that spread to
other batteries.
>
>A question: apart from the hydrogen, are "battery fumes" from flooded
>lead-acid batteries considered safe to breathe in general? Nothing
>even slightly toxic or irritant in them? Even in the case of an
>equalising charge or thermal run-away?
>They can certainly make an unpleasant smell, and I know from
>experience what the fumes do to exposed metalwork in the vicinity.
>So, when I'm doing renewable energy installations I always follow the
>recommendation to vent the batteries to the outside.
Probably not like a spring breeze but a whiff isn't going to put you
down either. I've never seen any evidence that the mist contains
anything other than sulfuric acid mist and hydrogen sulfide. Back in
the Good Old Days (TM) over in nearby Copper Hill, men spent their
lives breathing acid fumes while working in the sulfuric acid plant
located atop the copper mine. None of 'em set any records for
longevity but they didn't drop over dead at the first whiff either.
I figure that this is one of those things where the unpleasant odor
gives more than enough warning to breathe elsewhere.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I couldn't find it anywhere and ended up getting it from Bob Beaumont.
Steve
In a message dated 5/6/2006 3:36:43 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> does anyone have a copy of "the lost cord" by barbara taylor?
508 pages... long book..
Some ordering info(don't know if it's still accurate)
http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/EVinfo/evbooks.html
Another address at the bottom of this page:
http://sloan.stanford.edu/EVonline/erakko.htm
You might also put a listing on here:
http://pages.ebay.com/wantitnow/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe I am late on this tread but have you tried Avcon?
http://www.avconev.com/
- Will
323 Los Altos Drive
Aptos, CA 95003
(831) 688-8669
http://becketts.ws/Will
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 3:47 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: looking for "the lost cord" and avcon source
I couldn't find it anywhere and ended up getting it from Bob Beaumont.
Steve
In a message dated 5/6/2006 3:36:43 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> does anyone have a copy of "the lost cord" by barbara taylor?
508 pages... long book..
Some ordering info(don't know if it's still accurate)
http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/EVinfo/evbooks.html
Another address at the bottom of this page:
http://sloan.stanford.edu/EVonline/erakko.htm
You might also put a listing on here:
http://pages.ebay.com/wantitnow/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is this thing and how does it work?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=93801
I read the instructions for it but didn't find what I was looking for:
http://www.harborfreight.com/manuals/93000-93999/93801.pdf
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:52 PM 6/05/06 -0500, Ryan wrote:
What is this thing and how does it work?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=93801
G'day Ryan - and All
It isolates a "house" battery from a starting battery for an ICE system
(RV, boat, campervan, work truck, etc).
It is usually just two diodes, isolated and on a heatsink. You connect the
alternator output to the common, the vehicle battery to one diode terminal
and the other battery to the other one.Then when you discharge the "house"
battery, you don't discharge the starting battery.
Used by themselves, they are a great way of *not* recharging a deep-cycle
battery from an automotive system - if the battery has been run fully flat,
an automotive system may struggle to recharge the battery due to the
alternator being set for nominally float voltage, with no "boost" ability.
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 6 May 2006 10:37:13 -0700, Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>On Sat, May 06, 2006 at 05:09:54AM -0400, Neon John wrote:
>> On Sat, 6 May 2006 01:58:17 -0700 (MST), "Peter VanDerWal"
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> >Here are /my/ thoughts on a safe EV charging scheme. Comments are
>> >encouraged.
>> >
>> >1. Use a good quality standard 110/220V outlet.
>>
>> Nothing more than is being done now need be done.
>
>I agree 100% for 110 charging.
>
>> Yeah, a hot prong is exposed.
>
>Perhaps this is why we should not write our own standards ;-)
Or maybe why we should! This is one of those things that LOOKS bad
but evidently isn't, based on how many people have not been
electrocuted. Another of Bruce Schneider's Movie Plot Risks.
>> I curse every day that I've awakened sweating my
>> 'nads off because the friggin GFI in the 20 amp convenience outlet
>> that I had to use tripped because dew settled out on the power cable
>> and plug overnight.
>
>Clean up your power so you're not leaking more then 5ma.
NO! And this has nothing to do with RVs or me waking up hot. It's a
matter of core philosophy. Do we embrace rules that accomplish
nothing and cause only inconvenience? Do we make gratuitous changes
just to accommodate those who can't (as in "those who can, do...) and
therefore write rules? Do we let those types write rules that force
the mis-application of a technology?
(GFIs are GREAT when included in the appliance design such as most
hair dryers have. They're good when installed in appropriate
points-of-use such as bathrooms. They SUCK when pushed back up the
power supply chain because distributed leakage and capacitance erodes
the already pitiful trip headroom.)
Having enjoyed life before safety nazis, I say HELL NO. I have no
problem with silly guidelines for those with phobias. But it's quite
another matter to give them force of law, enforced at the barrel of
the state's gun.
My late, wonderful grandmother, bless her soul, had those child caps
on all unused outlets in her house because she was afraid that the
electricity would jump out of an open outlet and get her. And she
went around every night unplugging every single appliance before she
went to bed because electricity scared her.
I felt sorry for her because of her irrational electrophobia but it
was more or less harmless. But consider the case where some
electrophobe gets to a position of power and can write his phobias
into the law. Exhibit A: the modern NEC.
The pyrophobia and electrophobia embodied in the code has always
resulted in higher costs for dubious safety returns. Unfortunately it
has become expected and acceptable for government to do that. As with
any unrestrained power, though, the NEC has gotten out of control and
now is both demanding unsafe practices (section 600 almost in its
entirety) and interfering with progress. This particular part we're
discussing, for example.
There is a growing backlash against GFIs, judging by the mail I get.
I've previously pointed to that little paper I wrote several years ago
explaining how a GFI works. I just dropped the PDF on my web site-let
and referenced it once to help a fellow RVer understand why he was
having so much trouble getting his RV to work on a GFI outlet. It has
apparently wormed its way around the net and become one of those
net.fixtures. I've given permission to two different EE profs to use
it as course material. The paper is objectively factual with no
opinions as to goodness or badness.
Anyway, even though it has an obsolete email address in the contact
block, people still manage to find me. I get perhaps 10 messages a
week, most from people asking me to solve their GFI problems. That
old rule still holds - put something on paper and it becomes the
gospel truth and the writer becomes an expert.
In the past year or so, the mail is transitioning from simple GFI
questions to people telling me how much they hate GFIs, usually
combined with tales of woe. This seems to be roughly correlating with
the latest code revision forcing GFIs into more and more inappropriate
places.
It would be counter-productive if the backlash results in people
reflexively hating GFIs and ripping them out like people did the first
emission controls on cars. Unfortunately that is what happens in a
dynamic system such as a society where every perturbation eventually
results in an oscillation in the other direction, many times
overshooting the starting point.
Wrenching this back around to EVs, if inappropriate GFI application
gets forced on EVs or worse, we welcome them for a false sense of
safety then the general acceptance of EVs might take a hit from an
unanticipated direction.
Just imagine the scenario sometime in the future at Jolts'n'Bolts
Electric Car Emporium when on some fine spring morning when the air is
fresh and the dew is glistening.
BillyBob salesman is demonstrating the latest ElectroFlame Thundebolt
sports EV to a customer with a receding hairline and a midlife crisis.
Bob's waxing eloquently about how easy it is to refuel at home. He
pops the charger cord into the NEC approved charging pedestal (which
involves donning hot gloves before inserting the plug into a dead
outlet, pulling down a blast shield and affixing it with his personal
lock-out lock; and strapping on a nomex flash guard before inserting
his crypto key that identifies him as an OSHA-certified charger
operator) and.. *CLICK* The GFI trips. Dew has settled in and there
is a little condensation in the plug and perhaps inside the charger.
BillyBob smiles sheepishly and calls his manager to come reset the GFI
(OSHA and NEC have teamed up to adopt WallyWorld's philosophy that no
single employee can be trusted to do anything by himself except take a
leak, perhaps. "CSM to charger isle 3. CSM to charger isle 3....").
The manager inserts HIS crypto key and resets the GFI. *ClICK*.
BillyBob, smelling disaster and being fast on his feet, gladhands the
customer back to the car while he waxes rhapsodically about nano
lithium crystals and cobalt flux gates and babe magnetism and hair
implants. Meanwhile there is a background sonata of CLICK CLICK CLICK
CLACK!. The latter being the NEC-required "retry limit exceeded
lockout" that requires a field service rep visit to clear and a
recertification class for the manager. Meanwhile Mr. M.L. Crisis hops
back in his 68 Camaro and roars off to find the closest Viagra bar....
Perhaps I exaggerate, but only a little. Being the crusty old
curmudgeon coming from a nuclear background (where a local code nazi
would be shot as a terrorist if he tried to pass security), I'm just
testy enough to still require the problem to be identified before the
solution is force-fitted.
>
>> (Tip: Move the wires from the LINE to the LOAD terminals on the GFI.
>
>Or perhaps this? :)
Oh yes, that always works.
>
>> >
>> >5. Ventilation for flooded batteries is a good idea. Force ventilation of
>> >the battery boxes is probably a good idea. Since hydrogen will rapidly
>> >rise to the ceiling, provide it with a simple escape path near the ceiling
>> >so it won't accumulate.
>>
>> Not really. It is VERY difficult to generate enough hydrogen to form
>> an explosive mixture outside the batteries themselves.
>
>>From www.mikeholt.com/documents/safety/pdf/messagefromfiremarshall.pdf:
Ah, yes, Mike Holt, the net.safety.fascist and Paul Revere of the
sky-is-falling brigade, the guy who never met a regulation he didn't
like and can always come up with a "500 year horror story" to justify
'em all. That URL generates a 404; why does that not surprise me
considering whose site it is. I've enjoyed heckling him in the past.
Maybe it's time for a return visit :-)
I sure would like to scratch under the covers and find out what REALLY
happened there.
>> When this pack is given its full periodic equalization charge, it
>> sounds like a Jacuzzi in the battery room! Yet that hydrogen detector
>> (NOT just an explosive gas detector but a hydrogen-specific detector)
>> never moves off zero.
>
>Sounds like they have the ventilation system sized correctly.
Nukes tend to do thing right :-)
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's just two large diodes. Battery 1 and battery 2 still have the same
ground with the alternator. In this case the term "isolator" means the
positives are not tied together so you can drain the deep cycle battery
without draining the starting battery.
Danny
Ryan Stotts wrote:
What is this thing and how does it work?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=93801
I read the instructions for it but didn't find what I was looking for:
http://www.harborfreight.com/manuals/93000-93999/93801.pdf
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just wondering how I know if I am making good crimps.
How should they look?
I am using a large crimper from Quick Cable.
How many crimps should I do per lug? Should I crimp
from different sides?
My crimps seem solid, I can not pull the lug off after
I crimp.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks
Joel
1985 VW Cabriolet
96V
Kodiac, etc
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 5:23 AM -0700 5/5/06, Rod Hower wrote:
FYI,
Windows didn't recognize the file format, but it will
open in Adobe Acrobat if you select 'all files'.
Rod
Here's a AI Vector file of a bumper sticker for the
Zilla:
http://cafeelectric.com/temp/ZillaPowered.zip
Of course it should be made in dark Green ;)
Hi Rod,
Thanks for the tip. AI stands for Adobe Illustrator, so it makes
sense that Adobe Acrobat would open it.
Of course, doing graphics on windows is a bit like converting a
Suburban to a EV. :) Possible but difficult.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/
The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
Now accepting resumes. Please see:
http://www.cafeelectric.com/jobs.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, May 06, 2006 at 01:41:18PM -0700, elaine chiu wrote:
> hi guys.
>
> second, is there a source still for avcon stations and plugs?
http://www.avconev.com/
I bought a new cable from them the other day.
$380 will get you a head plus cable.
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Another address at the bottom of this page:
>
>http://sloan.stanford.edu/EVonline/erakko.htm
Anyone know if that is an excerpt from the book or just a wannabe
author getting a bit out of control on the review? I thought about
trying to run down a copy of that book but if that's an excerpt, I
don't think so.
I mean, I wanted to puke by the end of those prose. "lone man against
the world." "killed off by the evil consumer's union" (OK, so I agree
that CU is evil but you get the point.)
Maybe CU hastened the demise but the Citi was already doomed. After
all, a car that won't go or stop and gives you a complimentary shower
when it's raining really isn't practical and won't sell after the cute
wears off. I love my Citi and after a lot of work, it both goes and
stops but the one I was given to drive in the 70s (or my current one
as I received it, for that matter) would do little of either.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
