EV Digest 5456
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) :Ampabout, WAS Ft. Pierce EV Rally road race (long!)
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Suitable Range Extending Alternator for Trailer Power Supply
by "David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: What a Good Crimp Looks Like
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Dismal Rane and charging question
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Suitable Range Extending Alternator for Trailer Power Supply
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Dismal Rane and charging question
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: OT: "70 amp battery isolator"
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Suitable Range Extending Alternator for Trailer Power Supply
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: tax laws
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: tax laws
by John Norton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: OT: "70 amp battery isolator"
by "Ted C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Electro-Numerics meters
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: OT: "70 amp battery isolator"
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: tax laws
by John Norton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) 12v Battery Advise Needed
by Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: 12v battery advise
by Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: OT: "70 amp battery isolator"
by "Ted C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Electric car at local festival
by Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Electric car at local festival
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Sources of Energy
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
look here and you will understand what i mean:
http://www.geocities.com/sorefeets/balancerland/
look at impressive MTBF of a batmod module (MIL spec. is even better)
add point that you can parallel them you want for more power (14.5A or 29A
or 43.5A or 58A)
then add a powerfull full pack voltage bad boy FAST charger set to 80% SOC
voltage...
Let bad boy take the pack to 80-90% charge, Lee balancer make finish charge
and strong balancing in the same time.
seems to me a very reliable powerfull smart charger and
balancer/computerized monitor system for the money it cost...
:^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
> What would you define as a "powerful and reliable individual charger"?
>
> Please give me an example of such a device and how you would hook it up.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 11:24 AM
> Subject: Re: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
>
>
> Why not using one powerful and reliable individual charger with multiple
> relais connection to each batterie...seems familiar design...
> :^)
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 7:23 PM
> Subject: Re: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
>
>
> > David Ankers wrote:
> > > Instead of regulators for each battery in an EV, why not use
individual
> > > chargers?
> >
> > It's a good idea, and does work well if done properly. The main
> > challenge is reliability. 10 chargers have 10 times the parts, and so
> > 1/10th the reliability.
> >
> > A typical consumer-grade charger (like a $50 12v 15amp charger) is only
> > built to be used a few times a year. It would last 10 years that way.
> > But if you tried using 10 of them every day, you could have one fail
> > every few months.
> >
> > The real problem comes when you drive off in the morning not knowing
> > that one of your batteries didn't get charged. You'll destroy a battery
> > before youy get to work!
> >
> > To make multiple chargers work, you need to a) use exceptionally
> > reliable chargers, and b) provide some means to detect (and hopefully
> > correct for) any failures BEFORE they destroy a battery.
> > --
> > Ring the bells that still can ring
> > Forget the perfect offering
> > There is a crack in everything
> > That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 2:31 AM
Subject: Ft. Pierce EV Rally road race (long!)
Hi Charles an' EVerybody;
Wow! GREAT post! Keep them coming. I felt like I was right along with
youse guyz! I think you both did great in the miliage dept, for sure. As I
struggle to get much over 60 in CT's hilly roads. Still weeding Trojan
Teakettles out of my pack. I just took a 2point volt,.something one out last
nite, after a lumber run to bLowes, for trailer planking for the Joliet
run.I have an old 2 axle trailer Tony gave me getting fitted up as a car
trailer.We drove the Rabbit on to it yesterday. The 2 by 12's I used for
ramps wern't enough! Like loading a locomotive! They creaked and sagged,
EVen though I had blocking on the way up. The trailer option would sure save
wear-an'-tear on the car's running gear. I have rented a U Haul Car
Transporter trailer, and they are great. Can tow along efortlessly, with one
of these, but they get damn expensive by the week! IF you can actually FIND
one. Always wanted a car trailer, anyhow. SO......doubling up on the two by
twelves and a guide rail of 2by 4's once on, SHOULD do it. Now IF I were a
bit higher up on Amtrak, just drive the damn car into the Lake Shore
Limited's baggage Car in Boston or Springfield, retire to my Stateroom, and
relax the miles away. Think Auto Train, we DO do that to FLA.Very popular
service.
I should start about tue or Wed to get to Chicagoland for the Races.
Gees with a 140 mile range it wouldn't be unreasonable to drive out. Yes the
thought has crossed my mind. IF I left today! But finding juicy 240 volt
outlets could be a challange! Or EVen 120 ones, but you'd be spending DAZE
charging. Across the flatlands of Ohio and Indianna would be able to set
some miliage records, for me?Pennsylvania, gees ,all hills!IF the Electric
Car Highway that Bob Aronson called I -94 thousands of years ago. HE had
nice juicy charge stations , think, 240 3 faze 200 amp power drops EVery
40-60 miles along the way. I DID drive the Mars Two from Detoilet to Chicago
in one loooong afternoon, about 300 miles.With the Rabbit and my Little Blue
Box, bad boy charger I could do the same, nowadaze. IF Charlie could plug
the Rav 4 into a healthy, no damn grounf fault setup. Neon John, you hit it
right on the head with the damn Ground Faults! They can be nice but they are
more a pain in the ass than they are worth!!!How come they WAIT til you go
away to trip? Like the 8 traffic lights? I had to stop at EVery damn one
along my route last nite! They can sense an EV coming? I want one of those
gadgets ambulances use to "Click" the lites to green as they come along.Now
THERE'S a market thing for EV Parts, hey! You electronic geeks? IDEA!Hell
with Radar detecters.
Slipstreaming is fun and I know it works! Thank You Greyhound, as I often
have fallen in right behind a Greyhound, to see my amps drop down 'way below
100, on the leval. Of course reading "Safe Bus," "Leave the Driving to Us"
and all the other Greyhoundiana and breathing his Diseasel smoke is the down
side. 18 wheelers are usually too fast to keep up with! If ya could just
hook on<g>! They could pull you along and never notice! like towing my
Corvair electric to FLA YEARS ago with my International Schoolie camper. It
went about 55 or so, well it is/was a 54 year, anyhow, down hill, could do
70 but it needs a top gear. Hmmm, a Hybrid? Use a big ass motor to get it
rolling , start the gas up to maintain cruising speed. You could have a Red
Beastie battery pack, a school bus could carry it, no spring mods
needed!!Plugitin at camp grounds over nite. Guyz are doing that with CARS I
have been told<g>!
It's so great to have Wayland-sque like stories coming from FLA. How it
was as quiet as Connecticut years ago if EV stuff, EVen though the Citii
Cars were built there. Oh, yeah, The "Lost Cord" I think you hafta order it
from Bob Beaumont, direct. That's where I got MY copy, gotta get another, as
I loned mine out and forgot about it. Sigh. I'll sniff around and see if I
can locate a source. Barbara Taylor did a hellova job writing up our, Yeah,
I WAS there, story. Like the Tucker, the Man and his Dream" movie it was a
heartbreaker!So close, yet so far. Had he," Beau" as we called Bob, had been
able to fast forward to nowadaze, three bux a gal. gas, he might have had a
chance. The Tropica woulda been built, and would have sold like crazy,
today!!
I took Beau for a ride in my Rabbit at Boyertown a few years ago, the
nice dinner party that the DC EAA chapter threw in his honer. He was
impressed with the Raptor's smoothness, the powewrful 9" ADC did it's thing
and wafted us along a pleasent PA two laner.Gees! IF we had this "Stuff"
years ago. He was right, with todaze off-the-shelf EV stuff. We are LIGHT
years ahead in technology, today. Guyz don't forget it!! I remember the
early" Squlid State"Controllers and chargers we delt with as NOTHING was
made for the EV market. Back then Otmar and Rich probably were still in High
School?EV's not really on their minds? Of course I may be wrong? If a few
bios come to light. And NO internet to work out tecky problems back then.
You were on your own!
As I have seen alota EV's flow under the bridge, in 40 years, so I always
like to reflect back. Brother we have come along way. All we need is a trust
buster prez to wrest the patents for the mighty battery pack in the Rav 4's
to be able to buy one for yourself, or for, say, the Freedom EV? Jerry?
Rattlin' your cage! How we doing? Bring a completed Freedom to Joliet? Yeah
Right, like ya have any time?Well, there is NEXT year, too.
OK enough ramblin's gotta get the "Rig" ready for departure for Joliet,
log off awile<G>!
Seeya at the Races
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From the on road tests I have done, I believe about 10kW is needed to propel
my Diahatsu at 100ks. I have suitable Diesel engines but dont know of a
suitable alternator. The plan is to run the engine with speed control of the
Diesel in response to battery Volts & load. The only suitable machine I
think is a PM 3 ph alternator rated at 10kW 120V line to line 3000RPM
approx. Does anyone on the list have such a machine running or burntout for
sale or know of a manufacturer? Pl contact me off list. David Sharpe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I went to ebay and invested in one of these 7616241612 (burndy revolver
Y750)
Using these lugs
http://www.wilpowerbattery.com/pdfs/q5.pdf and
http://tampaforklift.com/lpm/l2battery.pdf
you can see the color of the dot on the die is the same as the stripes
on the lugs. The die gets the whole space between the lines in one shot
and I was really glad I got it.
here is a chart on the dies
http://www.specialized.net/ecommerce/shop/seriesmaster.asp?series_id=Dies+for+Burndy+Y-750+and+Y46-C+Crimpers
You can see the magnalugs use the U27RT orange also called 3/0 for 2/0
wire lugs. The U28RT with that auction will do 3/0 wire in magnalugs and
you want yellow(U29RT) for 4/0 with magnalugs.
One die per lug size :-( But, the tool goes forward until the two die
halves touch, repeating the same degree of crimp on every crimp. I used
noalux inside the lug befor crimping to reduce corrosion and used
heatshrink tubing lined with glue that they sell at the same place with
as the lugs.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave,
Lots of things are not done with EV's that should be. Each battery
should be monitored and each pack should have an ah/amp/volt meter.
But most are not.
This topic was brought up in the last couple months. The statistics
were flung about as usual. Then the trickle of multi charger users
started coming in. As I recall most of them were very good. One fellow
used multiple scooter chargers without issue. One guy with a Porche
used a power supply that he added some hardware to for a nice multi
charger system. There were several fellows with sucessful experience.
The thing I enjoyed 2nd most after their sucess was that there were
many different choices of charger, and all of them seemed to work.
So search back in the last couple months. I'm sure you'll find the thread.
In my opinion, it would be worth replacing a charging unit
ocassionally if it meant my batts were equalized on every charge.
Since so many packs out there don't have any regulation, having a
multi charger setup kills 2 birds with one stone. Charging and eq in
one step. It will add alot more wiring and mounting issues to your
pack. But in the long run, the more you do for your pack the longer it
lasts and the better it can perform.
I like the idea myself but I have 104 batterys so it won't work.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> There must be a good reason why the following idea is not done:
>
> Instead of regulators for each battery in an EV, why not use individual
> chargers?
>
> I'm fairly clueless about these things so there will no doubt be a good
> reason, what made me think of this is I can buy RC chargers at $60
that do
> 12V lead-acid (and nicad, Li-po etc). The downside is they only
charge at 5
> amps, so for 50AH battery, that's 10 hours (right?).
>
> They also run on 12v DC so would need a large power supply to power
20 of
> them - maybe that's a reason?
>
> Can someone inform me why this idea won't work? It's not a solution
I would
> implement, mainly because of pressing start on every one is error
prone -
> all it takes is to miss starting one when charging and you would
have killed
> a battery. Certain chargers don't have this issue though.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I only have maybe 20 miles range, mostly caused by poor milage 460wh/mile.
But someone was asking about chargeing, mentioned 5 amps on a 50ah
battery is 10 hours. Obviously we only use 80% but do we say 37(34*.8)
Ah dischargeing in one hour then (.8 * 45Ah) 36Ah chargeing ie a 45AH at
4 hour rate?
I have been using 110V on my PFC 20 and I can never get more than 4.5
amps without poppng a breaker and yet it has never taken 10 hours to
charge, even when I mis-judged and had to stop in some random side
street (luckily I stopped and was getting out of my car at the exact
instance the owner came home. He asked what was wrong and imeedeatly
offered to let me plug in, even had plugs mounted on the outside of the
garage. There are still nice people in this world, amen)
Excide orbitals are rated at 50ah at 20 hour rate, I have been using
34ah from the 1 hour rateing as my calculation point.
34*.8/5 = 5.4 hours 34*.8/4 =6.8 hours.
I travel to work using 3.4kwh in 7.3 miles (has been 3.1 to 3.6kwh) if
that is only 11ah @ 300V that makes sense that I recharge in 2.5 hours
at work, but does this mean that I am getting under 25ah from the
batteries because I am using it faster than 1 hr?
This would mean that when I fix the 460wh/mile problem, I will see more
than just an increase in what 25ah will do, i will see an increase in
avail ah also?
ah,, I love pukert.
I just want to make sure I am getting the range I should out of these
batteries.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David wrote:
> 10kW is needed... I have suitable Diesel engines but don't know of
> a suitable alternator. The plan is to run the engine with speed
> control of the Diesel in response to battery Volts & load. The
> only suitable machine I think is a PM 3 ph alternator rated at 10kW
> 120V line to line 3000RPM approx.
A PM AC alternator (or PM DC generator) can be the most efficient, but
they are optimized to run at one particular power level. Since it is at
full field all the time, it has full magnetic losses, even when
delivering minimal power. For example, 90% efficiecy at 10kw, but only
50% at 1kw.
A PM field also gives you no control over output voltage vs. rpm. You'll
have to keep the engine running at the full 3000 rpm even when you only
want 1kw output.
A wound-field alternator or shunt DC generator is slightly less
efficient due to the power needed for the field, but you can control the
excitation to optimize it for other power levels and other speeds. For
example, 85% efficient at 10kw, 75% efficient at 1kw. Also, you can slow
down the diesel to improve its light load efficiency, and raise the
field current to bring the generated voltage back up.
> Does anyone on the list have such a machine running or burntout for
> sale or know of a manufacturer?
10kw PM alternators are kind of rare. Your best bet for a used one is
from a generator with a dead ICE. They won't be built to be particularly
efficient; 80% would be doing good.
The efficiency you actually get depends *heavily* on the specific
machine. For example, ordinary automotive alternators (a wound field
machine) have terrible efficiency, but are very common and cheap.
Another good candidate if price is your main concern is a standard
120/208vac 3-phase induction motor. If you put load capacitors on each
phase winding, it becomes an induction generator. It will generate its
full nameplate voltage and current if you run it at its synchronous
speed + slip instead of -slip. For example, if the motor's nameplate is
2850 rpm at 50hz, synchronous speed is 3000 rpm, and it becomes a
generator at 3150 rpm. Obviously, you need an external bridge rectifier
to turn the AC back into DC.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah you're right, that's a dismal 70+ mpg ;)
What is causing your high consumption?
Have you thought any about adding insulation or heaters to warm up the
pack a bit?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I only have maybe 20 miles range, mostly caused by poor milage
460wh/mile.
>
> But someone was asking about chargeing, mentioned 5 amps on a 50ah
> battery is 10 hours. Obviously we only use 80% but do we say 37(34*.8)
> Ah dischargeing in one hour then (.8 * 45Ah) 36Ah chargeing ie a 45AH at
> 4 hour rate?
>
> I have been using 110V on my PFC 20 and I can never get more than 4.5
> amps without poppng a breaker and yet it has never taken 10 hours to
> charge, even when I mis-judged and had to stop in some random side
> street (luckily I stopped and was getting out of my car at the exact
> instance the owner came home. He asked what was wrong and imeedeatly
> offered to let me plug in, even had plugs mounted on the outside of the
> garage. There are still nice people in this world, amen)
>
> Excide orbitals are rated at 50ah at 20 hour rate, I have been using
> 34ah from the 1 hour rateing as my calculation point.
> 34*.8/5 = 5.4 hours 34*.8/4 =6.8 hours.
>
> I travel to work using 3.4kwh in 7.3 miles (has been 3.1 to 3.6kwh) if
> that is only 11ah @ 300V that makes sense that I recharge in 2.5 hours
> at work, but does this mean that I am getting under 25ah from the
> batteries because I am using it faster than 1 hr?
> This would mean that when I fix the 460wh/mile problem, I will see more
> than just an increase in what 25ah will do, i will see an increase in
> avail ah also?
>
> ah,, I love pukert.
>
> I just want to make sure I am getting the range I should out of these
> batteries.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James Massey wrote:
> I've had to fix up around half-a-dozen systems where people have
> these in their camping vehicles, have typically 100Ah or so of
> deep cycle battery and like to drain their poor battery to the
> last dregs of its delivery. These people all have discovered that
> their battery has not recharged on the 4 to 6 hour trip back from
> their favorite camp site, have fitted 100 or 150amp alternators
> and still find that they get back, hook up their charger and the
> battery sucks away at 10A for the next 5 or 6 hours. The problem
> is that most alternator regulators are set a little low so as to
> get best battery life for the SLI battery in the vehicle...
About 10 years ago, Cruising Equipment Company (of E-meter fame) sold
what they called an Ideal Regulator. It was an external voltage
regulator for automotive alternators that gave them a proper battery
charging algorithm. They had versions of the E-meter that had this
regulator built-in!
Basically, it had a recover, bulk, finish, and optional equalize steps.
Recover was to bring back a totally dead battery (under 11.5v even with
no load); charge it at low current until you are sure there are no
shorted or reversed cells. Bulk charged at the full current the
alternator was rated to deliver until the battery reached about 80% SOC.
Finish then held it at constant voltage at lower current for to bring it
up to 100% SOC with minimal gassing. Equalize raised the ending voltage
at low current for another couple hours or until the current stopped
falling.
They also made a "smart" battery isolator that used contactors instead
of diodes. It switched one, the other, or both 12v batteries (starting
and house) to the alternator and 12v loads as their states of charge
indicated.
Alas, Cruising Equipment is gone; bought out by Heart Interface and then
Xantrex. I don't know if these products are still available under a new
name, or have disappeared entirely.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wouldn't it also be a generator at 2850 rpm, but at a lower frequency?
Since he only needs DC, the frequency doesn't matter (much) so he can turn
it at just about any speed. I guess the capacitor values might change
though...
> Another good candidate if price is your main concern is a standard
> 120/208vac 3-phase induction motor. If you put load capacitors on each
> phase winding, it becomes an induction generator. It will generate its
> full nameplate voltage and current if you run it at its synchronous
> speed + slip instead of -slip. For example, if the motor's nameplate is
> 2850 rpm at 50hz, synchronous speed is 3000 rpm, and it becomes a
> generator at 3150 rpm. Obviously, you need an external bridge rectifier
> to turn the AC back into DC.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Considering how anti-EV the current POTUS is, does the Senator
> (what did you say his name was?) think they can get an expanded
> EV credit past the guy that insisted they eliminate the credit
> entirely?
Here's what I told Sharon and Wayne off list:
Present federal income tax rules (page 35 of the 2005 1040 instructions)
say:
"If you placed a qualified clean fuel vehicle in service in 2005,
you can deduct $2000... [it then lists the 8 "qualified" vehicles,
which are all gasoline-electric hybrids.] It then says, "It does
not include electric vehicles."
Thus you can't take the clean fuel deduction for an EV... period. But
then it says:
"You may be able to take a credit if you placed a *new* electric
vehicle in service in 2005. See form 8834 for details."
Form 8834 basically says "new" means literally a new car, never driven
before. Of course there *are* no new EVs by this definition, except
NEVs. Anyone who does an EV conversion is thus locked out of this
credit.
Ideally, EVers should lobby to change the tax laws to either permit EVs
to count as "clean fuel" vehicles for the deduction, or to allow EV
conversions to qualify for the credit. The trouble is, EVers aren't
organized. How do we get enough people to get off their butts and write
to their congressmen?
The backup plan is to re-title your EV conversion as a new vehicle. U.S.
Electricar bought Renault Lecars and retitled them as Lectric Leopards.
That counts as a "new car" according to the IRS rules. But this has
risks if you get audited; the auditor may see differently.
Next, on new laws:
It is a MAJOR effort to get a law written and passed. It take a lot of
time, money, and hard work. It's going to take someone with a lot of
political savvy, lobbying experience, and skill in writing a bill in the
obtuse legalese that they employ in the government. I don't think EVers
have the resources or willpower to do it from scratch.
But, I can see two possible avenues. One, we could ressurect 1976 Public
Law 94-413, "The Electric and Hybrid Research, Development, and
Demonstration Act." It sounds good, and does many of the right things:
- produced a report on the state of the art
- created a relatively easy to meet target performance specification
- provided many small grants to encourage companies, schools, and
individuals to experiment and built electric and hybrid vehicles
- groups that built vehicles that met the performance specs could get
further grants to continue development to meet a higher performance
goal
- purchase small numbers of vehicles from these groups
- use these vehicles for various government evaluation projects
(Post Office, Park Service, etc.)
The grants were too small to encourage large companies to "horn in" and
take over, but big enough to be a major incentive for small start-up
companies, individuals, and educational teams.
The purchases of a few vehicles from anyone that could successfully meet
the specs provided much-needed startup capital for tiny new electric car
companies.
On "Prize" incentives
My second thought is that offering some kind of prize can be a
*powerful* incentive to encourage progress in a desired direction.
Consider the Kramer prize, which I think was originally $10,000 for the
first human-powered flight, or the more recent $1 million X-prize for
the first non-government human flight into space. Or, the Great Electric
Car Race of 1968, which pitted the finest engineering schools in the
country to race each other coast-to-coast.
People spent VASTLY more money than the prize to win it! It was a goal,
a target, a challenge: The engineering equivalent of climbing Mt.
Everestt. It brought out absolutely the most brilliant, creative, and
hardest working technical talent imaginable.
And, the initial "seed" money for the prize encouraged others to
contribute, making the prize get bigger as interest grew.
So...
I propose a new "Electric and Hybrid Vehicle Patriotic Freedom Energy
Independence Demonstration Act". The government offers prizes for any
vehicles that can meet defined standards, grants to help student and
startups to build their prototypes, and races to show what the vehicles
can do. Say, a coast-to-coast race. The winners get prize money and
orders to build vehicles for demonstration projects.
Industry and private individuals can "chip in" to make the prizes
bigger, or offer sponsorship ("Trojan batteries, proud sponsor of"...),
or related prizes to encourage certain directions for the research ("and
an extra $1000 if it uses hydrogen"...)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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On Sun, 7 May 2006 3:09, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Hmm interesting.
Considering how anti-EV the current POTUS is, does the Senator (what
did
you say his name was?) think they can get an expanded EV credit past
the
guy that insisted they eliminate the credit entirely?
Probably be easier to make progress on this if you don't pass on mis or
disinformation.
Why would you say the current guy is anti-EV? That is demonstrably
untrue. As well as the part about insistence on the elimination of the
tax credit.
The President has said that technology is the way out of dependence on
oil. So he agrees with you more than you would admit.
John F. Norton
via T-Mobile Sidekick
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looks like Xantrex has incorporated this into their Link 2000-R.
http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/424/docserve.asp
This isn't the "smart" battery isolator. But a while back I was looking into
a battery isolator and ran across this. They make high current solid state
relays that handle up to 300amps at 12volts. These caught my eye when I saw
they had a 0.01 to 0.05 voltage drop at 5 amps depending on how you have
them configured.
http://www.hellroaring.com/bic75300.php
Ted
Olympia, WA
About 10 years ago, Cruising Equipment Company (of E-meter fame) sold
what they called an Ideal Regulator. It was an external voltage
regulator for automotive alternators that gave them a proper battery
charging algorithm. They had versions of the E-meter that had this
regulator built-in!
They also made a "smart" battery isolator that used contactors instead
of diodes. It switched one, the other, or both 12v batteries (starting
and house) to the alternator and 12v loads as their states of charge
indicated.
Alas, Cruising Equipment is gone; bought out by Heart Interface and then
Xantrex. I don't know if these products are still available under a new
name, or have disappeared entirely.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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I got some surplus lab panel meters and I haven't done much beyond making sure
they power up (run off 85-264Vac or 90-370Vdc) and that the control buttons
work. They have upper- and lower-limit alarm relays, but I don't have enough
tech experience to feel safe playing with them. They are model MROHRHE
(micro-p); specs are here:
http://www.electronumerics.com/downloadfiles/Micro_Series_Process_Displays_Manual.pdf
(If useable for EVs, I do have a couple I will sell)
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0.05v @ 5A sounds similar or worse dv/di than a diode reg, which may
reduce charge current.
Interesting note is that with a diode regulator, you CAN do a boost of
0.7v or more by using a switching element (transistor/relay) to bypass
the diode. The alt will be running 0.7v higher than the set voltage
read at the main battery. But of course a switching element capable of
this type of current is quite expensive/complicated. Also if I'm not
mistaken bringing the voltage up this high may cause gassing even if the
battery is not fully charged.
Danny
Ted C. wrote:
This isn't the "smart" battery isolator. But a while back I was
looking into a battery isolator and ran across this. They make high
current solid state relays that handle up to 300amps at 12volts. These
caught my eye when I saw they had a 0.01 to 0.05 voltage drop at 5
amps depending on how you have them configured.
http://www.hellroaring.com/bic75300.php
Ted
Olympia, WA
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On Sun, 7 May 2006 12:55, Lee Hart wrote:
Thus you can't take the clean fuel deduction for an EV... period. But
then it says:
"You may be able to take a credit if you placed a *new* electric
vehicle in service in 2005. See form 8834 for details."
Form 8834 basically says "new" means literally a new car, never driven
before. Of course there *are* no new EVs by this definition, except
NEVs. Anyone who does an EV conversion is thus locked out of this
credit.
Ideally, EVers should lobby to change the tax laws to either permit EVs
to count as "clean fuel" vehicles for the deduction, or to allow EV
conversions to qualify for the credit. The trouble is, EVers aren't
organized. How do we get enough people to get off their butts and write
to their congressmen?
But EVers have the resources to be organized - netroots make things much
easier these days, even for the non-monied. Get the various EVAAs
organized into a real national organization, haul in some easy celebrity
cash to fund the thing, and you could get some results. It will take
more than a letter writing campaign, but what is necessary isn't all
that hard, just takes people to do it.
Next, on new laws:
It is a MAJOR effort to get a law written and passed. It take a lot of
time, money, and hard work. It's going to take someone with a lot of
political savvy, lobbying experience, and skill in writing a bill in
the
obtuse legalese that they employ in the government. I don't think EVers
have the resources or willpower to do it from scratch.
In this case, though, all that is needed is to strike one requirement
out of the current regulation - that the vehicle must not have ever been
a non-electric vehicle. While the purpose of the current rule is to
spur the production of electric vehicles by offsetting the unfavorable
economics of it, it obviously hasn't worked. So the new rule would be
in the spirit of energy saving tax credits for adding insulation to your
home.
On "Prize" incentives
My second thought is that offering some kind of prize can be a
*powerful* incentive to encourage progress in a desired direction.
Consider the Kramer prize, which I think was originally $10,000 for the
first human-powered flight, or the more recent $1 million X-prize for
the first non-government human flight into space. Or, the Great
Electric
Car Race of 1968, which pitted the finest engineering schools in the
country to race each other coast-to-coast.
People spent VASTLY more money than the prize to win it! It was a goal,
a target, a challenge: The engineering equivalent of climbing Mt.
Everestt. It brought out absolutely the most brilliant, creative, and
hardest working technical talent imaginable.
And, the initial "seed" money for the prize encouraged others to
contribute, making the prize get bigger as interest grew.
Great ideas, and it works. There are new X-prize prizes being offered
for new spaceflight goals. Great way to generate distributed research.
Competition works. Look at the innovation Dick Rutan has brought to
the game.
I propose a new "Electric and Hybrid Vehicle Patriotic Freedom Energy
Independence Demonstration Act". The government offers prizes for any
vehicles that can meet defined standards, grants to help student and
startups to build their prototypes, and races to show what the vehicles
can do. Say, a coast-to-coast race. The winners get prize money and
orders to build vehicles for demonstration projects.
This is the right kind of proposal, and in politics, timing is
everything. Well, not everything, but a lot of it. Something like this
would fit real well into an energy bill right now - cheap to do for the
government, and everyone loves a contest. No top down research policy,
but a chance for good ideas to make a show.
John F. Norton
via T-Mobile Sidekick
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All,
As I progress at a maddeningly glacial pace towards my EV conversion,
it has become overly apparent that weight, among many other factors,
is a serious consideration, not only in moving mass but weight
limitations on the donor vehicle and, ultimately, range.
The donor vehicle will be between 2000 and 2500 (pre-de-ICing)
lbs. My needs are for a 30 mile (winter-time) to 40 mile (fair
weather) range. I'm aiming for a 120v pack. 20 six volt batteries
are simply too heavy (for the donor vehicle) for my purposes, thus my
desire for 12v batteries.
I had been leaning strongly towards Optima Yellow Tops or
Orbital/Exide XCD's...The Yellow Tops appeal strongly to me owing to
the ability to orient the batteries with no regard to spillage.
However, I have been warned that Optimas and Orbitals are poor
choices for EV's due to a limited per-volt range capacity and overall
short-life. Also, I have been told that these batteries require
individual charge regulators and are easily damaged by improper
charging/discharging.
Regardless the final battery configuration, sealed or capped, I will
be using some form of balancing regulation (specific methodology yet
to be determined) and will be constantly monitoring the pack charge
so as to not exceed 80% discharge so the last listed issues are of
lesser concern to me. It is the supposed limited range and short
life that concerns me the most.
Soooooo, what's the recommended 12v battery? Surely there's
something out there that will do the job without being so
prohibitively expensive as to abandon the project (my budget for
batteries is capped at $2000.00).
Many thanks for your considered respons(es),
Wayne White
If those of us who "can", "do" then those of us who "can't" won't
suffer as much from the high prices of excess.
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Have you considered using 15 8 volt g/c batteries?
Bill
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you can run the charging voltage the 0.7volts higher to make up for the loss
in the breakdown voltage of the diode. This small voltage difference doesn't
really matter until you get to equalization or float stage of the charging
cycle. But that is when you can ether under charge the battery or cook it. I
just figured why mess with all that when you can just get a relay that is
nearly invisible in the circuit (This would be in line with the KISS
priciple- (Keep It Simple Stupid) that i try to follow. Other wise I find
myself $300 and eight hours over buget trying to figure out where I went
wrong. I can see you all nodding your head because we have all been there).
I have found that with flooded batteries the 0.05volt loss is not a big deal
during the equalization/float stage. But the 0.7volts can be over time and
should be corrected. The 0.05volt loss maybe more of an issue when it comes
to equalizing/floating AGM or gel cell type batteries. These batteries maybe
more susceptible to gassing off if over charged this small amount over the
recommend equalization/float voltage. But I don't have a lot of personal
experience there so I can't say for sure.
Ted,
Olympia, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: OT: "70 amp battery isolator"
0.05v @ 5A sounds similar or worse dv/di than a diode reg, which may
reduce charge current.
Interesting note is that with a diode regulator, you CAN do a boost of
0.7v or more by using a switching element (transistor/relay) to bypass the
diode. The alt will be running 0.7v higher than the set voltage read at
the main battery. But of course a switching element capable of this type
of current is quite expensive/complicated. Also if I'm not mistaken
bringing the voltage up this high may cause gassing even if the battery is
not fully charged.
Danny
Ted C. wrote:
This isn't the "smart" battery isolator. But a while back I was looking
into a battery isolator and ran across this. They make high current solid
state relays that handle up to 300amps at 12volts. These caught my eye
when I saw they had a 0.01 to 0.05 voltage drop at 5 amps depending on
how you have them configured.
http://www.hellroaring.com/bic75300.php
Ted
Olympia, WA
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I was asked if I would bring my ev to a fruit and nut festival in the
area. The car is a 56 vw beetle conversion running at 72 volts. It's a
work in progress, with the back end full of batteries, not clamped down
or covered. The paint is rough but not out of line for a 50 year old
car. Any suggestions or opinions?
Thanks,
Bill
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Where and when is this fruit and nut fest?
Marc
On May 7, 2006, at 1:58 PM, Bill & Nancy wrote:
I was asked if I would bring my ev to a fruit and nut festival in
the area. The car is a 56 vw beetle conversion running at 72 volts.
It's a work in progress, with the back end full of batteries, not
clamped down or covered. The paint is rough but not out of line for
a 50 year old car. Any suggestions or opinions?
Thanks,
Bill
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Com'on Ken - knock it off!! Neon John has made some rather blunt statements,
but he has important ideas and thoughts to contribute to this list; "peekay"
hasn't contributed anything of merit to date - have you?
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Trough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: Sources of Energy
> Madman said:
> > Some of the preachers on this list need to taken to task...
> > Neon is good at that task...
>
> Neon is also adept at racism, hate speach and name calling too. Does
> that mean he get's a free pass? When did he get exempted from the rules?
> I have a problem with hypocrasy and I call BS when I see it.
>
> It seems some people are comfortable with others on this list being
> personally attacked, name called, and with people advocating actual
> physical violence on environmentalists (Neon's forte), but not with new
> people posting questions about legitimate emerging science issues (EMB)
> and so forth. That is pretty screwed up, IMO.
>
> I just made the point the pot was calling the kettle black and that
> Neon, as chief rule breaker, should have nothing to say about others
> breaking the rules.
>
> -Ken Trough
> V is for Voltage
> http://visforvoltage.com
> AIM/YM - ktrough
> FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
>
>
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