EV Digest 5467
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Suitable Range Extending Alternator for Trailer Power Supply
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: The Delta-Q and PFC are both very capable chargers...
by "Garret Maki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Current Eliminator News
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) RE: Battery interconnect challenge
by "Rick Todd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) formula???
by Ben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Minimum Power
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) I need advice/ Making a GEM go farther and faster.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: PFC and Breakers
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) NEDRA High Voltage Nationals & Midwest AFV Expo This Saturday
May 13th!
by Ted Lowe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Minimum Power
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Minimum Power
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: [Hybrid] Honda to put Insight powertrain in new Fit/Jazz (PHEV)
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT (Taps just monitor)
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Victoria project car on Ebay Motors!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: formula???
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Welding on WarP 9 Motor Housing
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: formula???
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Sources of Energy
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT (Taps just monitor)
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Sources of Energy
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
David Sharpe wrote:
> Yes I think it is. My earlier note about my experience with these
> self excited m/cs will indicate my dissatisfaction with them.
Sorry; I missed that note. You tried them before and had a problem?
> There is likely to be 1000s of uFs of capacitors needed for a
> 10kW rated IM.
It shouldn't be quite that bad. 100s of uF, but not thousands.
> I have a lathe & milling machine but no knowledge of using high
> strength PMs though.
Your best bet would be to look at some commercial PM rotors, and copy
one of them. Look for examples of radial flux (i.e. normal) motors.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have to second that. I love my Delta-Q 72V charger on my motorcycle.
I just plug it in and forget about it. It's wonderful! And if I change
to AGMs this summer I won't need regulators.
I've received great support too.
Garret
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/623.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lightning Ryan
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 1:57 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: The Delta-Q and PFC are both very capable chargers...
Roger Stockton wrote:
> Rich Rudman wrote:
I'd just like to say that I'm very pleased with BOTH the Delta-Q and
PFC chargers. Each is a fine product with impeccable fit and finish.
Both of them do a great job satisfying the needs of their target
audiences. The Delta-Q is more than capable of performing the task
of nightly charging an EV/PHEV pack. Likewise the PFC-30 is doing
a great job playing the roll of DC-DC in this new Hybrid-Pack config.
By all means, feel free to continue your gentle ribbing, but realize
that both of you have equally reliable and robust products in my book.
Kudos to all of you here at the EVDL for making possible the things
which we are now doing with our PHEV conversions, without you and your
support I (personally) would not be capable of pulling off any of it.
Of course many thanks to CalCars who also continues to play a major
roll in these efforts and still leads the way in Prius PHEV conversions.
L8r
Ryan
ps. Yes we may have discharged the pack more than we would have liked
during our Monday outing leading to the slower than expected recovery
& recharge, though as has been pointed out this was not the fault of the
charger, but our own for having not kept closer watch over the pack.
.oO( We should have known better and will not let it happen again. )
.oO( BTW. In the end we put 3.73kWh back into the pack, more #s L8r )
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just got a notice from the VP fuel depot on racing fuel. The cheapest race
fuel is now $7.00 per gallon.I use about $.27 of diesel per run. Dennis
Berube Racing for NHRA points and $1200.+
on
sat.eve at Speedworld in Phoenix
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard,
If you are looking for a flexible Battery interconnect solution. Gus
Berthold Electric in Chicago( www.bertholdelectric.com) Makes a copper
braided Flexible link From 2/0 all the way up to 500MCM and everything in
between. If you are interested speak with Rob, Their number is
312-243-5767.
Hope this helps,
Rick Todd Jr.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Richard Rau
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 1:22 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Battery interconnect challenge
I'm converting a Porsche 914 for a customer, and I'm in a tight
spot....literally.
Because of limited space in several areas (240V of Odyssey #PC1700 batts.),
the battery boxes need to be compact. 1/2" foam board all around, and not
much headroom. Bus bars will be used wherever possible to help in this
regard....1/8"x1". (Zilla Z1K+ 9" motor= need for generous ampacity)
I am concerned with 1/8" copper being too rigid and possibly breaking the
post seals.
Details are important here. I'm aware of the need for some 'give' to be
built into each bar. In most locations, that can be done. Others however
will be short with just a single curve, shaped somewhat like the symbol for
Ohm . How will my hawker Odysseys handle this? They will be snug in their
boxes and buss connection will be direct to their case-top level terminals.
Do any of you have insights as to the robustness of Odyssey post seals?
Any feedback is appreciated.
Richard
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.5/334 - Release Date: 5/8/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are there formulas to calculate weight & power required if given desired
MPH & distance. I would like to be about able to go 35 MPH for 20 miles.
--
"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used
to the idea." by Robert Heinlein
Ben Bennett
http://home.earthlink.net/~greyhawk200/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has it been established by anyone that the Prius battery computer is
actually a BMS or just monitoring and report?
Mike
>
> The Prius has a very advanced cell to cell BMS system.. The Art of my
> solution is to NOT MESS with it.
>
> We park the NiMh pack in it's sweat spot. When we run out of Add on pack
> support, The system resorts to it's stock abilities..
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joel Hacker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 3:53 PM
> Subject: Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
>
>
> >
> > What is the likelihood that a PFC-30 dumping power from
> > a PBA pack into the Prius' NiMH pack will imbalance the
> > Prius 5AH pack over time?
> >
> > Is the NiMH chemistry easy to imbalance, or is it more
> > stable like a gel cel chemistry?
> >
> >
> >
> > > You can charge the pack quicker with your PFC30, but you *will*
kill the
> > > pack in short order if you do not use regs with it. CalCars has
already
> > > proven this, but you're welcome to repeat the experiment at Ryan's
> > > expense if you wish ;^>
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Roger.
> > >
> > >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
Stefan,
At 36 or even 48V you will not be able to "snap" a transmission
unless it is not an adequate one to begin with.
To prove this, I take my batteries: 110Ah 12V (71 lbs) which are
rated for 720A CCA, which means that they can deliver at least 720A
(when warm they should do closer to 1000A) at 8V for 30 seconds.
This is somewhere between 5.6 and 8 kW per battery, so even with
4 batteries you will not be able to get much more than 40 hp total.
That should be no problem as I would expect that the car's ICE
was able to deliver a comparable power or more.
That's reassuring, thanks! It's actually a compact truck tranny, so it's
tough enough. I suppose that means I should just stick with four 12V
marine or floorsweeper batts to help limit the current...
~ Peanut Gallery ~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's a BMS.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Rich Rudman" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
> Has it been established by anyone that the Prius battery computer is
> actually a BMS or just monitoring and report?
>
> Mike
>
>
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It might be possible to shoehorn in 12 US batteries. They make about 5
different versions of the 6v battery with 5 different weights from 59 pounds
to 70 pounds.. If you put on some B381 Bridgestones that might also make a
difference. I suspect a very big jump in range with those tires. Adapters
would be required. Just a couple of thoughts. You would get a huge jump
with 6v batteries. The 12v batteries weigh around 500 pounds & the 6v
batteries weigh about 700 pounds and would probably double your range. I'm
sure you could find a way to fit in more batteries & with the combination of
LRR tires it would go a bit faster and climb hills better which you would
need for the added battery weight. Has anyone done this? The new GEM 6
passenger usese 9 8v batteries. Lawrence Rhodes.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes.
The PFC chargers don't like being abruptly unloaded.
It's always best to ramp them down then turn them off.
Opening the AC side has the same effect as toggling the breaker on them. So
this is the acceptable way to shut them off fast.
Judging from the Arc flash from the breakers.. Cutting off a 30 amp flow
will cause some wear and tear on the Breaker's contacts. But, they are
designed for it.
Opening the Ouput put of a live Swither power stage, is not a good thing, We
have taken efforts to live through this fault, But from time to time... it
is not enough.
In a application where the output of our chargers is run at very high
voltages..above 400 volts, I would use a pair of large can 450 volt rated
electrolyitc Caps, and a 500 volt ZNR snubber.
Of course shutting off the charger's output by bringing the HOT REG line
high on the Reg Buss is the RIGHT way to toggle the unit on and off,
without interupting the AC feed.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 5:41 AM
Subject: PFC and Breakers
> Most of the diagrams I see show the battery charger connected to the load
> side of the breaker instead of the battery side. It seems like I've read
> comments from Rich that his PFC chargers shouldn't be plugged into AC
until
> they are connected to the batteries. If a PFC-30 were connected to the
load
> side of a breaker, and the breaker tripped or got turned off for some
> reason, would the charger be damanged? If so, is it a good idea to have a
> manual link next to the main DC breaker so that whenever it turns off, it
> also turns off an AC breaker that powers the PFC?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVDL'ers,
Correct me if i'm wrong (redundant:-), but this could be the largest gathering
of EVers and the public together in US history!?
My logic: 3 EVents are meeting in the same place at the same time, 1) NEDRA
High Voltage Nationals,
2) Midwest AFV Expo, 3) EAA 5th EVer. Top notch competitors at a top notch
venue, everything EV & AFV,
lots of PR and press coverage... If you're anywhere nearby (relative word),
come join us
and be part of the masses! Mass speaks.
Best regards,
ted, FVEAA prez.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
---
Reminder Announcement:
The Midwest AFV Expo is this Saturday at the Route 66 Raceway in Joliet, IL!
This fun-filled, information-packed day features all-things about Alternative
Fuel Vehicles (AFVs)
and the NEDRA High Voltage Nationals electric drag racing competition.
The gates are open to the public at 11AM. Cost is $5, under 12 free, and free
if you drive and display an AFV!
There will be many types of AFVs on display such as hybrids, flex-fuel, E-85,
electric, biodiesel,
veggie oil, natural gas, solar, human-powered, etc. Talk to their owners and
ask questions about
real world issues.
The National Electric Drag Racing Association (NEDRA) High Voltage Nationals
features some
of the world's quickest electric vehicles and other teams from around the
country will be giving
them a run for the money. Don't miss this electrifying opportunity!
Read more about these events at www.midwestalternativefuelvehicleexpo.com and
www.fveaa.org. Read Route 66 Raceway's flyer for more details about the
layout of the venue,
exhibitors, participants, schedule of activities, etc.:
http://www.fveaa.org/documents/MAFVE-colorflyer.pdf
Route 66 Raceway is on Route 53, 3 miles south of I-80.
Driving directions and map are here:
http://www.chicagolandspeedway.com/cgi-bin/r.cgi/rt66_directions.html
Enter at Gate 11 off of Rt. 53 (south of Schweitzer Rd). Hope to see you
Saturday!
Best regards,
ted
630-260-0424
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
>> At 36 or even 48V you will not be able to "snap" a transmission
>> unless it is not an adequate one to begin with.
"Stefan T. Peters" wrote:
> That's reassuring, thanks! It's actually a compact truck tranny,
> so its tough enough. I suppose that means I should just stick with
> four 12V marine or floorsweeper batts to help limit the current...
That's not quite the whole story, Stefan.
Suppose you have a contactor controller; they do not limit the current.
You "floor it" from a dead stop, and the batteries will be your weak
link that sets the current. Freshly charged flooded batteries can easily
deliver 500-1000 amps (at least for a couple seconds before something
breaks).
A series DC motor converts current into torque. At normal currents, the
torque goes up as the SQUARE of the current, so it gets big fast! At
over nameplate current, the torque flattens out but is still more than
doubling as curretn doubles. So when you hit that motor with 500-1000
amps, you are going to get a HUGE amount of torque -- many times more
than any comparable ICE!
A series motor switched straight to the batteries WILL NOT BE STOPPED!
That's why they use them for drag racing. All that torque is going to
burn rubber, blow fuses, melt battery interconnects, break
transmissions... SOMETHING is going to give!
So, you do something to prevent this mayhem:
- Use an electronic PWM controller that limits current (and thus
torque)
- Use skinny high-pressure tires that will spin before something breaks
- Use a weak clutch that will slip
- Use undersized wire to add some resistance to limit the current
- Put some kind of interlock in your contactor controller to prevent
going to full throttle from a dead stop
- Or just make everything strong enough, and go racing!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I need to ask them some questions. Can you point me to the folks that
told you that it's a BMS?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> It's a BMS.
>
> Madman
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 9:33 AM
> Subject: Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
>
>
> > Has it been established by anyone that the Prius battery computer is
> > actually a BMS or just monitoring and report?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger...
politely and with less force.... could please explain what setup points you
used to charge this string of AGMs?
My hunch is you were being very gental with the batteries.. and set a very
low peak charged voltage and current, JUST so the pack could live a
reasonable life without Reg.
Clearly we intend to have Mk2B or Mk3Regs on the PFC charger... Like DuH...
I won't let this opertunity pass me by. But I ran out of time.
And it was "Show time Baby!" So.. Well the Regs were kind Live and
dirrect... measure...turn down Charger..wait.....
On The DQ.. I have no idea what curves you have and what was intended. I
would like to know and get as much "in the trenches" data back to you as I
can. That's what I do.
Good, Bad or other wise....
We will be using atleast one Mk3 Reg.. Because it will have a special Rev of
code in it that allows the Low battery Bit to control the HOT Reg line. This
allows a low voltage event on the Source pack to
shut off the charger while it's charging the Hybrid pack. Right now the
charger will suck the add on pack dry. This is the first feature that having
a software based Reg has saved my but on.
Bruce Sherry had the code in my hands about 45 mintues after I asked for it.
I still have not had a chance to load it and test it. Sigh!!!
So.. Roger.. any bets on how many cycles Ryan's AGM pack will live
through??
Ryan....you stuffed 3.7 Kw back into the pack??? Nice!!! We need to do a
Capcity run on it Saturday morning.. See how much we have now.
I need to find my old E-meter # MANZANITA.. and get some state of charge
tracking for the AGM pack.
And find 19 Mk3 regs....
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 7:13 PM
Subject: RE: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
> Joel Hacker wrote:
>
> > Can you please explain your statement of how
> > Rudman's PFC30 would burn up the battery pack
> > without regs if the Prius Battery Pack has its
> > own BMS and regs/balancers for each battery?
>
> No problem: there are 2 battery packs in Ryan's PHEV Prius; the stock
> Prius NiMH pack, and a 20Ah VRLA AGM pack.
>
> Rich has described using his PFC30 as a DC/DC to pump current from the
> "big" AGM pack into the NiMH pack; this should be no problem as the
> Prius pack has its own BMS.
>
> Rich has suggested that the next step is to provide contactors to allow
> the PFC30 to be used to recharge the AGM pack from the grid while the
> vehicle is parked. The AGM pack does not have regs or BMS, and Rich is
> fully aware that his charger will kill the pack prematurely if used to
> charge this pack without installing regs on it. My understanding is
> that Calcars has already tried a PFCxx without regs and proved this for
> themselves.
>
> The Delta-Q charger that was installed by Calcars is specifically
> configured for charging a string of AGMs without regs. I am at a loss
> to explain the behaviour Rich has reported for this unit as my test
> results confirm that the algorithm works. Unfortunately, the charger is
> only part of the system, and it is possible that there is some
> undesirable interaction between it and some other part of the system, or
> perhaps that the charger has failed in some way.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor,
Didn't meant to make you feel guilty :-)
It's more for newbies reading this so they don't get confused
and become accustom to the proper definitions.
'Course I know you know what you're talking about!
Victor
Cor van de Water wrote:
Of course,
thanks for catching it, even though the context should
leave no other interpretation than my stupid typo.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 8:51 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Minimum Power
Cor van de Water wrote:
Hi Stefan,
My S-10 truck (5080 lbs with me on board) and AC drive
(slightly more efficient than DC but not by much) needs
about 20 kWh for a constant 60 MPH on a flat freeway (101)
Unit watcher: you meant 20 kW, did you?
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If the Fit/Jazz will truly be using an unchanged powertrain from
the Insight, the 1.0Liter+IMA and all it's computers, etc...
Then Perhaps the MIMA would also work with this car!! The MIMA
does not work on the Civic/Accord, but perhaps it will on the Fit.
Now, Having Manual IMA control opens up a whole new set of possibilities
some are scratched down here: http://www.eaa-phev.org/wiki/Insight_PHEV
L8r
Ryan
Evan Tuer wrote:
> On 5/10/06, nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> David,
>>
>> It's interesting that you were getting 39mpg for figures from Honda?
>> I managed nearly 52 on the freeway between Bristol and Reading (about
>> 70 miles) when we had one as a hire car while our Prelude was being
>> serviced.
>
>
> Remember that US gallons are 83% of the size of UK ones, so in US
> terms you were getting 42 MPG I think.
>
> Also, the drive cycles used by manufacturers to demonstrate mileage
> are supposed to represent average driving and conditions. If you're
> driving freely at a constant (and moderate) speed, you probably will
> do better.
>
> The hybrid version should get better MPG if they use the lean-burn
> engine, improve the aerodynamic details, and implement auto-stop.
>
>> It's great for us as we're into power kiting and the seats fold right
>> down. And if they are doing it as a hybrid in a few years time does
>> anyone thing they'll be any Plug in hacks???
>
>
> Try the Insight forum, people are grid charging it and adding
> additional batteries to increase the MPG.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I beg to differ, I have not heard that it is a BMS,
Similar to the Insight system the taps are merely used
to watch for 1.2 volts of module imbalance which would
indicate a cell reversal and the need for a new battery.
I have never heard that these taps are used to do any active
balancing, and I'm not sure how they could as they are
connected to pairs of modules (6 cells per module) so they
are only monitoring sets of 12 cells, at 1.2v per cell.
L8r
Ryan
Mike Phillips wrote:
> I need to ask them some questions. Can you point me to the folks that
> told you that it's a BMS?
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>It's a BMS.
>>From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>Has it been established by anyone that the Prius battery computer is
>>>actually a BMS or just monitoring and report?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you want an ambitious but interesting rare project microcar, I have
just
listed my 1958 Victoria 250 microcar on Ebay Motors, as item number
4636880534.
You can see the auction by clicking here:
_eBay Motors: Other Makes : 1958 Victoria 250 Microcar (item 4636880534
end
time May-16-06 18:30:00 PDT)_
(http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1958-Victoria-250-Microcar-Extremely-rare-unusual_W0QQitemZ4636880534QQcategoryZ6472QQrdZ1QQcm
dZViewItem)
It has been neglected in the weather for some time, and is therefore quite
a
project, but it has many valuable and rare parts. The auction does not
include any drive train components, but I do have some Victoria parts
that I would
consider selling separately if the bidder (or any other Victoria
enthusiast)
is interested.
I have also listed a Goggomobil TS 250 Sport Coupe body shell which has
been
cut to create a Cabriolet body shell, item number 4638559870
_eBay Motors: Other Makes : 1958 Goggomobil TS250 Cabriolet (item
4638559870
end time May-18-06 11:32:09 PDT)_
(http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-1958-Goggomobil-TS250-Cabriolet-body-shell-1958-Goggomobil-TS250-Cabriolet-bo
dy-shell-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ4638559870QQcategoryZ6472QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1Q
QcmdZViewItem)
It is an early (Suicide doors) European (Small headlights) body shell. I
purchased it from Florida, so although it has surface rust, it is
structurally
pretty sound.
I do not believe that this is one of the seven original real Cabriolets,
but
who knows? You have to ask yourself; "Do I feel lucky?"
Great conversion for a rusty Goggo body replacement, or simply create your
own cabriolet on a modern platform. Got an old Metro or Fiesta lying
around.
C'mon, you guys are always going on about building your own microcar!
There is
no reserve and either would be a great platform for your own microcar
creation, or a garage wall hanging or a planter! Email me if you want any
more
information or details.
I do reserve the right to end the auction early if someone makes me a
decent
offer.
Thanks,
Chas
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
List Home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Arcane_autos/
Arcane Auto Society Home Page: http://www.arcaneauto.org/
List Moderator [EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Arcane_autos/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Message 4
From: "Remy Chevalier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue May 9, 2006 6:33pm(PDT)
Subject: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
Photos from the test session of the A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle.
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/a123/KillaCycle.html
Did I miss this? Looks good.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ben, I have a spreadsheet and the base formulas on my website:
Basic Physics of Motion:
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_BasicPhysicsOfMotion.html
Phsics and Evs: http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_CalculateMotorSize.html
Some spreadsheets that will help:
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_EstimatingPowerNeeds.html
Rather than working backwards, I suggest you start with an initial guess,
then calculate the range. Then adjust the weight and battery energy
appropriately.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ben
Sent: May 10, 2006 9:27 AM
To: ev
Subject: formula???
Are there formulas to calculate weight & power required if given desired MPH
& distance. I would like to be about able to go 35 MPH for 20 miles.
--
"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and
get used to the idea." by Robert Heinlein Ben Bennett
http://home.earthlink.net/~greyhawk200/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think you hit the nail on the head. Often, welding with too little
heat throughput causes more problems than it solves. It's better to
heat it quickly and be done with it, and that takes a lot of power.
I've noticed the same thing even with gas welding -- it's easy to
undersize the tip.
James Massey wrote:
At 12:10 AM 10/05/06 -0800, Mike wrote:
<snip> My query is if its OK to weld on the motor
housing without taking the guts out. I would be putting two 1-1/2" long
vertical beads on each side of the motor. <snip>
G'day Mike
Question is, can your welder deliver lots of amps? The secret to this
type of welding is high-power "tacks" of weld - at least 250 to 350A,
in order to get plenty of penetration, but keep the weld duration
short - like half a second. probably more significant than overheating
the fields is the need to not deform the housing tube. Cool the
housing down between welds & you'll be fine.
If your welder is too small, the first bit of welding is not
penetrating well. By the time your weld pool is formed you have put a
fair amount of total energy into the job, a lot more energy than the
short, high-power weld.
If your welder is a little undersized, someone near you will likely
have a machine suitable, make sure they understand the reason for
welding like that. Beer is good currency for small jobs at most
welding shops.
Hope this helps.
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Ben,
One handy electric vehicle calculator is Uve's Electric Vehicle Calculator.
Just type it into search engine.
I also use a simple ratio calculation, that I came across about 30 years
ago. It will get you in the ball park and sometimes it may be right on.
Watthr = Weight = Mph = Time = Overall gear ratio
It was found by experimentation that it takes:
Knowns:
600 Watts = 100 lbs = 50 mph = 60 min. = 4.00:1 gear ratio
You can reference any of the above knowns with a new input number, for
example:
1200 watts = 200 lbs = 50 mph = 60 min. = 4.00:1 gear ratio
2400 watts = 400 lbs
4800 watts = 800 lbs
9600 watts = 1600 lbs
19200 watts = 3200 lbs
38400 watts = 6400 lbs
For My Vehicle that has 180 volt pack of 260 AH batteries, the watts for
1-hour or watthr would be 180 x 260 = 46800 watthr or 46.8KWH
The maximum weight would be a ratio calculation to any of the above
reference numbers, for example:
7800lbs = (46800 wh x 100 lbs)/600 wh
My EV at one time weigh 7800 lbs using a 5.57:1 axle ratio. It is now 6800
lbs using the same gear ratio with a top speed of 92 mphs with a range of 78
miles at 60 mph discharging to 20% DOD.
Another calculations for gear ratio vs rpm vs speed.
MPH = (RPM x TC)/(Ratio x 1056)
RPM - is the rpm of the motor
TC - is the Tire Circumference (measure by one turn on a grade)
Ratio - Gear ratios and/or overall gear ratios ( transmission gear
times the axle ratio)
1056 - Constant (deride from 5280/(60 x 12)
If you use Uve's Calculator, it will be more specific in the equipment your
EV has.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ev" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 10:27 AM
Subject: formula???
> Are there formulas to calculate weight & power required if given desired
> MPH & distance. I would like to be about able to go 35 MPH for 20 miles.
>
> --
> "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and
> get used to the idea." by Robert Heinlein
> Ben Bennett
> http://home.earthlink.net/~greyhawk200/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/a123/KillaCycle.html>
Wow, 350 hp on 150 lbs of batteries! Even taking into account the
weight of the electric motor and controller, that's about the same
power-to-weight ratio as a racing gasoline engine! 9 kWhrs is about
as much energy as a pack of 28 Orbitals holds!
It'll be exciting to hear what the ETs will be.
Just change the rear wheel and this could be a machine that would set
an electric motorcycle land speed record, too.
All this speed, and possibly a 100 mile range, too (with a different
rear wheel). That's amazing technology, I hope the cost comes down
some more.
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Message 4
> From: "Remy Chevalier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Date: Tue May 9, 2006 6:33pm(PDT)
> Subject: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
>
> Photos from the test session of the A123 Systems sponsored
> KillaCycle.
> http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/a123/KillaCycle.html
>
> Did I miss this? Looks good.
>
>
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> Vegetable Oil Car.
> 415-821-3519
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> could please explain what setup points you
> used to charge this string of AGMs?
>
> My hunch is you were being very gental with the
> batteries.. and set a very low peak charged voltage
> and current, JUST so the pack could live a reasonable
> life without Reg.
Actually, you'd probably be shocked at the voltage I allow ;^>
The algorithm will trickle an over-discharged pack up to 2.0V/cell at
2A, then it will run at rated output current until the pack reaches
2.43V/cell.
At this point it begins pulsing the battery at 3A, watching the voltage
and the duration of the pulses. This phase continues until it takes
less than 2s @ 3A to bring the pack to 2.43V/cell. There is a safety
timer that limits the maximum pulse duration in this phase that may need
tweaking, as it may be set a bit too conservatively for Ryan's "green"
pack.
The finish phase pulses the pack 5s at 1A, 5s off until a set percentage
of the Ah returned in the prior phases has been returned. This
percentage may benefit from tweaking to increase the % overcharge as the
present value is set conservatively.
> On The DQ.. I have no idea what curves you have and what was
> intended. I would like to know and get as much "in the
> trenches" data back to you as I can. That's what I do. Good,
> Bad or other wise....
I'll share what information I can, and look forward to whatever data you
can provide. I'll caution you right now that due to the nature of this
pulsed algorithm it is fairly challenging to collect accurate data.
All I ask is that you sanity check your data before broadcasting it all
over the 'net. It does neither of us any good when you post something
absurd like that the charger ran for 4hrs consuming ~1100W from the AC
line, but returned less than 500Wh to the pack: the charger is roughly
90% efficient, so it delivered about 4kw of DC *somewhere*, or it didn't
run for 4hrs or didn't run at 1100W input.
Sanity checking some of your other data points:
800W input corresponds to about 720W out, or 3A @ 240V; this is a bit
low; if the pack were less than 240V, the charger runs at 2A which
should correspond to a maximum of about 550W input. Above 240V, it runs
at 3.6A, which implies a minimum input power of about 960W. Running in
between suggests it might have reduced its output current to avoid
overheating, or that the power figures are ballparks. If the charger
had reduced its output to avoid overheating, the LED on the ammeter
bargraph would have been flashing instead of being lit steadily (and, of
course, the ammeter would have been indicating less than full output).
1100W input correponds to about 1000W out. At 3.6A, this means the pack
voltage would have to have been about 278V (2.31V/cell), which is in
direct opposition to your assertion that the charger couldn't take the
pack over 240-250V.
> So.. Roger.. any bets on how many cycles Ryan's AGM pack will live
> through??
Nope. Too many factors at play here, including how badly the pack has
been/will be overdischarged, how deeply it will be cycled, etc.
Probably realistic not to expect more than the manufacturer's rated life
for 100%DOD cycles.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ya know I rarley find the source post and hammer the sender....
But the whole idea is a joke to most of us who really do electric
vehicles... and it's a insult to those of us who have had some schooling.
But.. I find it's entertainment... But it leaves a crazy fool look for this
list to be even thinking about such a non working idea.
As fun reading on a Alternate energy list... is where it should be discused.
We regularly run the really foolish threads off this list...
When we get the over unity motors and water engines, and zero vacume power
supply ideas.. We hunt them down. I used to take pleasure in harassing folks
on those threads.
I don't have the time to bring out my terrible Swift sword on every item the
flashes across this list. There are others that can play Logic and Physics
Cop here. I will step in if the thread gets out of line.
The Gun Engine was getting to take up too much of the bandwidth.
Maybe you should lable the thread with .."Check this funny idea out"... then
it warns us that you also think its entertainment and don't think you will
actually be driving one soon.
Some folks on this list will believe just about any thing ...it's up to us,
that have really done stuff to say what can and can't be done...
Not some fool who is looking to separate you from you money.
Rich Rudman
Madman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: Sources of Energy
> Rich said:
> > Gun engines.. and stupidity.. really should be kicked out or flamed off
the
> > list.
>
> I should be kicked off the list for my gun-engine post? I admit, had a
> read the article more carefully (which I should have done!) I would
> not have posted it.
>
> I kinda looked up to you Rich and now I feel kicked in the gut.
>
> -Mike
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The fellows that I know who have worked on hacking the Prius system
said that it was a BMS too. But so far what they have said makes it
look like a system level BMS, not a module to module BMS.
It's clear to me that BMS has to be defined before a conversation can
really start on the right foot.
Now that I have 11 Prius Packs, I'll tear down a battery ECU and see
if there are any circuits that make it look like a module to module
level BMS. After going thru the clamper drill, I can't see how 19
pairs of modules can be voltage regulated with such a small box.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I beg to differ, I have not heard that it is a BMS,
> Similar to the Insight system the taps are merely used
> to watch for 1.2 volts of module imbalance which would
> indicate a cell reversal and the need for a new battery.
>
> I have never heard that these taps are used to do any active
> balancing, and I'm not sure how they could as they are
> connected to pairs of modules (6 cells per module) so they
> are only monitoring sets of 12 cells, at 1.2v per cell.
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
> Mike Phillips wrote:
> > I need to ask them some questions. Can you point me to the folks that
> > told you that it's a BMS?
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rich Rudman" <ev@> wrote:
> >>It's a BMS.
> >>From: "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@>
> >>>Has it been established by anyone that the Prius battery computer is
> >>>actually a BMS or just monitoring and report?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Understood Ken....
But you do seam to have a thin skin and a fast keyboard... I KNOW you have a
fast keyboard!!! I have seen it!.
I have absolutley no problems with Hypocrasy... if it is true....
I do poke fun at myself and others.. Being a Eco Geek and a hot rodder and
Mining engineer at the same time... gets pretty hard to tell what side of
the argument I am on.
Oh yea and a EV power electronics designer and builder....I keep
forgetting... I have some real stakes here on the list.
It also keeps my views well rounded... and I can see many aspects of the
same issue.... And that is clearly lacking on this list.
Lets not keep count of the transgressions we all have on this list... It
makes for a really good sales forum for me... totally guilty....
A thicker skin for most of us would help a little. But we do need to keep
the total Zanny clowns from turning this list into a fringe element list.
That takes some patience and a little use of the flame thrower.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Trough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: Sources of Energy
> Madman said:
> > Some of the preachers on this list need to taken to task...
> > Neon is good at that task...
>
> Neon is also adept at racism, hate speach and name calling too. Does
> that mean he get's a free pass? When did he get exempted from the rules?
> I have a problem with hypocrasy and I call BS when I see it.
>
> It seems some people are comfortable with others on this list being
> personally attacked, name called, and with people advocating actual
> physical violence on environmentalists (Neon's forte), but not with new
> people posting questions about legitimate emerging science issues (EMB)
> and so forth. That is pretty screwed up, IMO.
>
> I just made the point the pot was calling the kettle black and that
> Neon, as chief rule breaker, should have nothing to say about others
> breaking the rules.
>
> -Ken Trough
> V is for Voltage
> http://visforvoltage.com
> AIM/YM - ktrough
> FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
>
--- End Message ---
