EV Digest 5465
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Minimum Power
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by Joel Hacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Suitable Range Extending Alternator for Trailer Power Supply
by "David Sharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: A new charger idea
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Minimum Power
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Suitable Range Extending Alternator for Trailer Power Supply
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Need Advanced motor & adapter for '86 VW
by "Roger Daisley @ R J Ranch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Battery interconnect challenge
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Minimum Power
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Battery interconnect challenge
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Minimum Power
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Minimum Power
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Motor Blowers - is this acceptable?
by "Adrian DeLeon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Speed sensor mounting - Impulse 9" with CE shaft
by "Adrian DeLeon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Battery Interconnect resistance
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: DC-DC converters
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Prius PHEV (Hybrid-Pack via Manzanita Micro PFC-30)
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Can be done..
But what is the cost for small watts... and keep in mind I do 5Kw and above
power.
I would rather you get a gird tie wind turbine and then use the grid at
might to fill the EV/Hybrid.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chet Fields" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
> Rich,
>
> Could the same logic apply to using your charger with it's
> new logic to charge an EVs battery pack at x voltage from a
> variable DC source such as wind or solar?
>
> I could go for that. And one for my Prius. Or come to think
> of it both at the same time. Charge the Add On Pack from
> Solar Panels directly instead of the grid.
>
> Watcha think?
>
> --- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > What I thought was a daunting computer hashing and
> > Spoofing effort has
> > become a interesting way to make a Stock PFC30 charger
> > make it all happen.
> > Clearly this kind of Plug In Hybrid system can be used on
> > just about any
> > Hybrid, with a wildly varying Source pack.. the charger
> > can boost of Buck
> > DC... You could have a 96 volt pack of floodeds charing a
> > 360 volt pack of
> > Lions... Or a 360 volt pack of Lions charging a 218 volt
> > pack of NiMH. It
> > doesn't really matter. Just adjust the target voltage
> > right.. and you are
> > off.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger...your turn to feel defensive.
The charger refused to make more than 250 volts. The AGMs needed 14.8 to
meet my Charged parameters. Being delacate is not a fast solution.
Yea I know how may watts it was supposed to make.... 4 hours later...we
still didn't have it up to What I consider peak voltage.
The pack was new...really new.... I Kinda know about Regs... We had one at
15.25... the rest were in the 14.6 to 14.9 range. Not bad for no regs at
all.
When you have a room full of clients and interested folks...sitting and
waiting for a charger is a BAD thing!!! Been there done that learned the
lesson.
We had 100s of CFM flowing around the charger... I did my best to keep the
Delta Q charger in the sene and I did my best to keep my mouth shut.
Still we could not get the pack high enough for me to allow the last runs.
In the current set up we have NO low voltage cut out for the PFC charger.
It will suck the PbLa Dry and not know it. So I was certainly NOT going to
push my luck with a new pack. We got close enough to cell reversal as it
awas.
I was told it was a 1500 watt unit. so 1100 watts AC feed was a bit low.
The heat made was... or seamed out of line. I have 100 CFM of airflow in my
chargers...
For a darn good reason.
Fin alignment is Moot when you have 100s of CFM blowing around it. I wanted
to leave the Grid Chores to the Delta Q I got good enough PR with the Green
box. I didn't need more.
Also I did not want to mess up the voltage tweaking we were doing to make
Mr. Toyota happy.
By my math the DQ was set up for about 16 batteries.. not 19.
This event clearly shows that what ever you have for a charger... it needs
to be larger... I had 6500 watts of transfer power... I needed more. You had
about 1000 watts from the grid... I needed MORE!
If we had twice the Zorch...we still would have wanted more. EVERYbody
wanted to see it work and take a ride... One guy got a ride, we spent the
rest of the evening waiting... THAT won't happen at a ride and drive again.
We need a E-meter.. I need to track Cycles.. in this mode we most likely
will long stroke the pack every time we leave the grid.. At best we should
get rated cycle life...
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 3:39 PM
Subject: RE: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > We plug in the DeltaQ. It makes bout 800 watts.. OK...
>
> > The DQ gets hot.. we scrounge a fan.. still only 1100 watts.
> > The crowd shows up for the presentation... the DQ still is
> > taking it's bloddy time.... It just won't make solid big
> > amps, it gets hot....
>
> FYI, Rich, the Delta-Q charger is a 1kW unit: quit complaining about
> "only" 1100W already! ;^>
>
> 1kW @ 240VDC nominal output is 4A max output; it doesn't make "big"
> amps. And, it's a fully sealed unit that in this installation is
> mounted sideways such that its heatsinks cannot work as designed, so it
> has to rely on the external fans that [were supposed] to be part of the
> CalCars install.
>
> > and won't drive the lead over 240 volts... I suspect the
> > "Engineering Unit ONLY" means it's set to the wrong
> > voltage... and there are other issues...
>
> Calcars was unsure if they would use a 19 or 20 module srting, so the
> charger is programmed with algorithms for both. If the charger is set
> for the wrong algorithm, then clearly it will not charge to the proper
> voltage. If there is any question about the Delta-Q charger, Ryan has
> the contact info needed to receive all the technical support he should
> need.
>
> > Simple fact it can't fill our pack,
>
> Nonsense. Unless it is broken it will.
>
> > Also.. the Pb pack had no Regs
>
> The charge algorithm in this charger is specifically designed for
> charging a string of AGMs *without* regs. This, besides that it is only
> a 1kW rated unit is why it takes longer than you would like to charge.
>
> You can charge the pack quicker with your PFC30, but you *will* kill the
> pack in short order if you do not use regs with it. CalCars has already
> proven this, but you're welcome to repeat the experiment at Ryan's
> expense if you wish ;^>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
NONE because we leve the Prius's own BMS in tack.
It rapidly takes care of impballences.
Gell is not stable.. it's slower.
The Prius has a very advanced cell to cell BMS system.. The Art of my
solution is to NOT MESS with it.
We park the NiMh pack in it's sweat spot. When we run out of Add on pack
support, The system resorts to it's stock abilities..
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Hacker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
>
> What is the likelihood that a PFC-30 dumping power from
> a PBA pack into the Prius' NiMH pack will imbalance the
> Prius 5AH pack over time?
>
> Is the NiMH chemistry easy to imbalance, or is it more
> stable like a gel cel chemistry?
>
>
>
> > You can charge the pack quicker with your PFC30, but you *will* kill the
> > pack in short order if you do not use regs with it. CalCars has already
> > proven this, but you're welcome to repeat the experiment at Ryan's
> > expense if you wish ;^>
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Roger.
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Cal cars stuff did extensive Spoofing of that system, and takes the NiMh
out of the loop while being a EV.
It's a interconnect hightmare.
I do respect it's intended goals.... But....I would not want to try to
support it myself. Daunting goals...
I rather walk around the brick wall than beat my head on it.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 4:10 PM
Subject: RE: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
> The Prius pack has BMS and per-cell regulation, unless
> you remove or disable that it should still keep the pack
> in balance.
> (When the pack is in the Prius, you better have the BMS
> working or the car won't work)
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Joel Hacker
> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 3:53 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
>
>
>
> What is the likelihood that a PFC-30 dumping power from
> a PBA pack into the Prius' NiMH pack will imbalance the
> Prius 5AH pack over time?
>
> Is the NiMH chemistry easy to imbalance, or is it more
> stable like a gel cel chemistry?
>
>
>
> > You can charge the pack quicker with your PFC30, but you *will* kill the
> > pack in short order if you do not use regs with it. CalCars has already
> > proven this, but you're welcome to repeat the experiment at Ryan's
> > expense if you wish ;^>
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Roger.
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What time and place is this hybrid forum in Port Townsend? If
a previous message gave this information I missed it. I might
be able to come.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
Sorry Rod, But I am Hijacking this thread to the SEVA list and to the Main
EVlist.
Madman
Warning... no time to spell check... phone ringing...
In the last couple of Days like since Sunday... I have had my hands in
Ryan's Pirus pretty deeply.
First I will be up in PT for sure with Ryan... I just did about 250 miles
in
it, In a Ride over to Wenatchee and back. So.. I am getting some hands on
time with the PiPrius.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Roger...your turn to feel defensive.
Trying my best to avoid that; I just want the record straight.
> The charger refused to make more than 250 volts. The AGMs
> needed 14.8 to meet my Charged parameters.
That charger is capable of 336V output and will take the batteries to
14.8V unless it is broken.
> Being delacate is not a fast solution.
Calcars did not intend that onboard charger as a fast solution for demo
runs; it is intended to recharge the pack overnight and treat it right
while doing so.
> The pack was new...really new....
And this is why one of the algorithm safety parameters may need to be
tweaked; Ryan and I have already spoke about this, but he fried the
Calcars system before he got a chance to do any more charge cycles after
we talked.
> I Kinda know about Regs...
Of course, and if you stick regs on Ryan's pack to complement your PFC30
you will have no problem. If you don't, you will kill the pack
prematurely.
> When you have a room full of clients and interested
> folks...sitting and waiting for a charger is a BAD thing!!!
> Been there done that learned the lesson.
Apparently not; the lesson is never show up to a demo with a depleted
battery in the first place. ;^>
> We had 100s of CFM flowing around the charger...
It takes precious little airflow to allow our charger to sustain full
output, so 100s of CFM is overkill.
> In the current set up we have NO low voltage cut out for the
> PFC charger. It will suck the PbLa Dry and not know it. So I
> was certainly NOT going to push my luck with a new pack. We
> got close enough to cell reversal as it awas.
This might go a long way toward explaining your long charge time. The
charge algorithm in the Delta-Q charger will "trickle" the battery at 2A
until it exceeds 2.0V/cell, and only then will it go to full output.
> The heat made was... or seamed out of line. I have 100 CFM
> of airflow in my chargers... For a darn good reason.
The charger dissipates a maximum of about 100W at full power. The
heatsinks/external surfaces will not exceed something like 60C (UL
requirement).
Our chargers are fully sealed and have no cooling fans also for a darned
good reason: OEMs want sealed chargers for onboard mounting, and they
invariably will not accept a cooling fan for reliability reasons.
> By my math the DQ was set up for about 16 batteries.. not 19.
Something is suspect then, because it is *not* set up for 16 modules.
As I noted, Ryan has the tech support information, should he choose to
use it. The charger left here capable of fully and safely charging a
string of 20Ah AGMs; if it is not doing so and he would like to be using
it, then we're here to make it so.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
Hi Stefan,
My S-10 truck (5080 lbs with me on board) and AC drive
(slightly more efficient than DC but not by much) needs
about 20 kWh for a constant 60 MPH on a flat freeway (101)
So your vehicle that weighs less than 1/2 and drives at 2/3
of the speed should be able to do that continuous with less
than 1/3 of the power, in other words: your first assumption
is very likely to give you what you expect, while the second
should be able to reach the speed, but acceleration may be
unaccepable unless allowing more current. 36V may not be
sufficient, but it also depends on the current.
One way to find out is to build it and improve it from there
like your plan already was.
To avoid buying the wrong controller you can buy the 4 batteries
and first install only 3 (you will need the 4th later anyway)
and use the principle of contactor on/off for a test of max
acceleration and speed.
That should give you the answers if you want a 36V controller
or 48V.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
Spot on advice, thanks!
So the "shopping list" for a prelim test would be:
- 4 batts
- appropriate contactor + fuse/breaker
- some way to measure battery current (shunt + accurate multimeter?)
- wiring
- big red button :-)
Should I throw some (variable would be nice) resistance in there?
Suggestion on easy, safe way of doing that? The motor I have is very
"torquey", wouldn't want to snap anything...
~ Peanut Gallery ~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rodger,
Can you please explain your statement of how
Rudman's PFC30 would burn up the battery pack
without regs if the Prius Battery Pack has its
own BMS and regs/balancers for each battery?
Thanks,
JH
Roger Stockton wrote:
>I Kinda know about Regs...
Of course, and if you stick regs on Ryan's pack to complement your PFC30
you will have no problem. If you don't, you will kill the pack
prematurely.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My next approach, there being no affordable PM alternators, is to convert a
three phase squirrel cage IM to PM by replacing the rotor with one with rare
earth (perhaps) magnets attached to a suitable rotor either by removing the
bars & laminations or making a new rotor. A star connected motor reconnected
to delta should produce the right voltage for my 144V pack (for the US
voltages). Anybody offer any guidance here? David Sharpe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was hopeing that by combineing the functionality of battery chargeing
with balancing, health monitoring and emeter like telemetry it would
balance out. Also a little waterproofness as the wires go into two
boxes, one in the front battery compartment and one in the rear.
The other half of the hope is that for very imbalanced packs it would be
handled better than straight regs. Another question is would it save
any significant amount of energy in an older pack that takes longer to
balance.
Lee, You will be the first to know if this works, as you will probably
get to help me with the circuit ;-) LOL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Stefan T. Peters" wrote:
> Given a micro or mini donor car (1200-1800 lbs complete without batts
> & motor), what kind of power (kW) is needed for in-town driving? ...
That's a hard question to answer. For a car this light, the average
power needed to maintain 35-40 mph is only 5-7 kw. However, you didn't
give the weight *with* batteries. The power goes up as the weight goes
up.
Also, the *peak* power needed is considerably higher. It is defined by
how steep a hill you want to climb at that speed, and how fast you want
to accellerate. These are highly subjective -- everyone has their own
opinion of what is "fast enough".
> Would 48V, 150A constant - 400A peak be enough (7.2 - 19.2kW)
In something like a CitiCar (1200 lbs *with* batteries), this provided
pretty good low-speed performance.
In something like a Lectric Leopard (3000 lbs with batteries), it
provided really sluggish performance.
> Why? Well, given that the motor is already mounted to the tranny, then:
> $320 Batts ($80 x 4)
That means four 12v floodeds. They won't give you 400 amps peak for more
than a few seconds. And, this is a tiny pack; your range and battery
life would be pitiful. Even a golf cart has six batteries.
> $330 Charger (4 bank multicharger)
I'd put more money into batteries and less into the charger. Use 6 or 8
batteries, and a used golf cart charger, for instance.
> ~$300 48V Controller (TSE/Alltrax/Curtis)
If the EV is over 2000 lbs with batteries, these controllers are really
too small.
> the next step (in addition to the above already in the car):
> $320 Batts ($80 x 4)
Ok, now you have 8 batteries, which is just beginning to get reasonable.
> $330 Charger (4 bank multicharger)
> ~$800 96V Controller (TSE/Curtis)
Possible, at least.
> And then maybe add this:
> $320 Batts ($80 x 4)
> $330 Charger (4 bank multicharger)
> ~$2000 144V Controller (Curtis/Zilla)
Again, this is possible.
If it were me, I'd start by looking for some used/cheap batteries that
would reach my final intended pack voltage. I'd use a contactor
controller until I could afford a Curtis/Zilla. I'd use a manual variac
charger initially, and upgrade it as finances permit. That way, I could
be *driving* after spending that initial $960.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Sharpe wrote:
> My next approach, there being no affordable PM alternators, is to
> convert a three phase squirrel cage IM to PM by replacing the rotor
> with one with rare earth (perhaps) magnets attached to a suitable
> rotor either by removing the bars & laminations or making a new
> rotor.
You could, but this is a lot of precision machine shop work. It would
gain you perhaps 10% in efficiency over an induction generator. Is that
worth it?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Need immediately: 8" Advanced DC motor and adapter plate for '86 VW Cabbie.
New or used.
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph,
It looks like you just answered my question about the braid to lug connection.
Thanks
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 7:06 AM
Subject: Re: Battery interconnect challenge
>
> Richard,
>
> I had the same issue for a few of my interconnects. I needed short but
> flexible 2/0 interconnects. I ended up using some 'tinned copper flat
> braid' from Aplha Wire. Their product number 1241 has about the same
> cross-section as 2/0 cable, and when folded in half length-wise it just
> barely fits into 2/0 crimp lugs. I was able to get a 4' or 5' sample
> from them, which was enough to do the few tight interconnects in my pack.
> Here's the URL: http://www.alphawire.com/pages/159.cfm
>
> Ralph
>
>
> Richard Rau writes:
>>
>> I'm converting a Porsche 914 for a customer, and I'm in a tight
>> spot....literally.
>> Because of limited space in several areas (240V of Odyssey #PC1700 batts.),
>> the battery boxes need to be compact. 1/2" foam board all around, and not
>> much headroom. Bus bars will be used wherever possible to help in this
>> regard....1/8"x1". (Zilla Z1K+ 9" motor= need for generous ampacity)
>> I am concerned with 1/8" copper being too rigid and possibly breaking the
>> post seals.
>> Details are important here. I'm aware of the need for some 'give' to be
>> built into each bar. In most locations, that can be done. Others however
>> will be short with just a single curve, shaped somewhat like the symbol for
>> Ohm . How will my hawker Odysseys handle this? They will be snug in their
>> boxes and buss connection will be direct to their case-top level terminals.
>> Do any of you have insights as to the robustness of Odyssey post seals?
>> Any feedback is appreciated.
>> Richard
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.5/334 - Release Date: 5/8/2006
>>
>>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
Hi Stefan,
My S-10 truck (5080 lbs with me on board) and AC drive
(slightly more efficient than DC but not by much) needs
about 20 kWh for a constant 60 MPH on a flat freeway (101)
Unit watcher: you meant 20 kW, did you?
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush,
Note that I said "just barely fits"... If you use something like this
I would suggest having nice sharp cable cutters to cut the braid, and
then be careful when handling the end to not let it fray. Even then,
you may find a strand or two is persistant on poking out. I just let
it, and then wrapped it around the braid when I installed the heatshrink.
Good luck! Let me know if you have any questions.
Ralph
Rush writes:
>
> Ralph,
>
> It looks like you just answered my question about the braid to lug connection.
>
> Thanks
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 7:06 AM
> Subject: Re: Battery interconnect challenge
>
>
> >
> > Richard,
> >
> > I had the same issue for a few of my interconnects. I needed short but
> > flexible 2/0 interconnects. I ended up using some 'tinned copper flat
> > braid' from Aplha Wire. Their product number 1241 has about the same
> > cross-section as 2/0 cable, and when folded in half length-wise it just
> > barely fits into 2/0 crimp lugs. I was able to get a 4' or 5' sample
> > from them, which was enough to do the few tight interconnects in my pack.
> > Here's the URL: http://www.alphawire.com/pages/159.cfm
> >
> > Ralph
> >
> >
> > Richard Rau writes:
> >>
> >> I'm converting a Porsche 914 for a customer, and I'm in a tight
> >> spot....literally.
> >> Because of limited space in several areas (240V of Odyssey #PC1700 batts.),
> >> the battery boxes need to be compact. 1/2" foam board all around, and not
> >> much headroom. Bus bars will be used wherever possible to help in this
> >> regard....1/8"x1". (Zilla Z1K+ 9" motor= need for generous ampacity)
> >> I am concerned with 1/8" copper being too rigid and possibly breaking the
> >> post seals.
> >> Details are important here. I'm aware of the need for some 'give' to be
> >> built into each bar. In most locations, that can be done. Others however
> >> will be short with just a single curve, shaped somewhat like the symbol for
> >> Ohm . How will my hawker Odysseys handle this? They will be snug in
> >> their
> >> boxes and buss connection will be direct to their case-top level terminals.
> >> Do any of you have insights as to the robustness of Odyssey post seals?
> >> Any feedback is appreciated.
> >> Richard
> >>
> >> --
> >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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Lee Hart wrote:
"Stefan T. Peters" wrote:
Given a micro or mini donor car (1200-1800 lbs complete without batts
& motor), what kind of power (kW) is needed for in-town driving? ...
That's a hard question to answer. For a car this light, the average
power needed to maintain 35-40 mph is only 5-7 kw. However, you didn't
give the weight *with* batteries. The power goes up as the weight goes
up.
Well, in the initial 48V setup, that would be 1500 + (~80 * 4) = ~1800lbs
That means four 12v floodeds. They won't give you 400 amps peak for more
than a few seconds. And, this is a tiny pack; your range and battery
life would be pitiful. Even a golf cart has six batteries.
This is for small country town driving... only a few stop lights in
town, 25MPH most of the time. Nice and easy for now. Only need 12 miles
daily range.
$330 Charger (4 bank multicharger)
I'd put more money into batteries and less into the charger. Use 6 or 8
batteries, and a used golf cart charger, for instance.
Indeed, good thought. I'll have to look around.
~$300 48V Controller (TSE/Alltrax/Curtis)
If the EV is over 2000 lbs with batteries, these controllers are really
too small.
Definitely well under 2000lbs with only 4 batts... my thought is that
the first controller would end up in the go-kart (test mule) later :-)
the next step (in addition to the above already in the car):
$320 Batts ($80 x 4)
Ok, now you have 8 batteries, which is just beginning to get reasonable.
Now I'm up to 2200lbs @ 96V, and can take a nice leisurely drive on the
weekend in the countryside (45MPH, 20 mile range), right?
If it were me, I'd start by looking for some used/cheap batteries that
would reach my final intended pack voltage. I'd use a contactor
controller until I could afford a Curtis/Zilla.
Which was my first thought - my main concern is that most of my driving
is not what you would call *typical*: 25MPH average, with very gradual
15-35MPH speed changes. Will a purely contactor setup allow for fine
enough control in such "lazy" driving conditions? How much can a
contactor controller be had for? Making one seems to be $300 - $400,
which puts me in the 48-72v/400-600A new controller territory. Haven't
seen any used contactor controllers available, but maybe I'm looking in
the wrong places. If sourcing one takes three months, kinda defeats the
purpose of the whole "get it on the road" effort...
I'd use a manual variac
charger initially, and upgrade it as finances permit. That way, I could
be *driving* after spending that initial $960.
Oh my, I'm afraid I'll be cookin 'em batteries in no time with one of
those. I have 16 hours to charge the batts, but not attended. You are
talking to one very absent-minded & busy person (terrible combination, I
know). A 4-8A constant current automatic charger should suffice, correct?
So many questions, which of course breed more questions when you start
to get some answers ;-)
Thanks for your time, as always! Criticism/comments are always welcome,
since I'll take good information any way I can get it.
~Peanut Gallery ~
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The 48 Volt Fiesta I have for sale matches your description very well.
It has a 2000 amp controller and weighs 1800 pounds without batteries. With
800 pounds of batteries on board, it holds 35 MPH well and gets there
adequately at about 600 amps. The car could go 50 MPH in the quarter mile
when I ran it at Woodburn. Range was about 14 miles with the old batteries.
The new ones I just bought should put it about 20 to 25 miles.
400 amps will push the car up a 5% grade at 30 MPH. That is not fast enough
for my neighborhood that is posted 50 MPH.
48 volts at 400 amps will be minimally adequate for 35 MPH on flat ground in
a 2500 pound car.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 1:48 PM
Subject: Minimum Power
> In the pursuit of an EV grin, there are many variables. One of the
> biggest for many is $$$. Now I know there are many that find the concept
> of NEVs distasteful, so let's just call this a "partial conversion" ;)
>
> Given a micro or mini donor car (1200 - 1800 lbs complete without bats &
> motor), what kind of power (kW) is needed for in-town driving?
>
> I'm talking 35MPH (maybe 40) top speed, mostly flat with the occasional
> one or two block hill, using a common (6" - 8") series DC motor and 4 or
> 5 speed manual tranny. This is so that the car can get put to use in
> *some* capacity while saving up for the "highway capable
> controller/battery pack combo", instead of merely being used to stop the
> grass from growing ;)
>
> Would 48V, 150A constant - 400A peak be enough (7.2 - 19.2kW) to shuffle
> such a car around the neighborhood? How about the overly optimistic 100A
> constant - 300A peak (4.8 - 14.4kW) at 48V? This voltage should get the
> motor (lightly loaded) up around 3000RPM, yes/no? How about 36V even?
>
> Why? Well, given that the motor is already mounted to the tranny, then:
>
> $320 Batts ($80 x 4)
> $330 Charger (4 bank multicharger)
> ~$300 48V Controller (TSE/Alltrax/Curtis)
> -------------------------------------------
> $950 town only setup
>
> With this being the next step (in addition to the above already in the
car):
>
> $320 Batts ($80 x 4)
> $330 Charger (4 bank multicharger)
> ~$800 96V Controller (TSE/Curtis)
> -------------------------------------------
> $1450 light hwy setup
>
> And then maybe add this:
>
> $320 Batts ($80 x 4)
> $330 Charger (4 bank multicharger)
> ~$2000 144V Controller (Curtis/Zilla)
> --------------------------------------------
> $2650 sporty setup
>
> As opposed to this:
>
> $960 Batts ($80 x 12)
> ~$1200 144V Charger
> ~$2000 144V Controller
> -------------------------------------------
> $4160 sporty setup from the start
>
> Given that the last option results in the car sitting around for a
> year... how much ICE cost is that at ~10miles/day?
>
> 3500 miles @ 24MPG = 145 gallons @ $3.10/gal = $450 + pollution generated.
>
> But the main part is saving wear & tear on the ICE car + EV grin *now*!
>
> ~ Peanut Gallery ~
>
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I mounted a blower under my battery rack using electrical box hangers -
cool! How about using zip ties to connect a short piece of dryer hose from
the blower to 1 of the 4 "inlets" under the wire mesh? (I need a 90 degree
bend from the blower to the motor) Would I leave the remaining inlets
alone or block them off?
/----\
| /\ |
| \/ |
|--/ | Blower, air going <---
H |------/
O
S
e
/--------------\
| |
| Motor |==
| |
\--------------/
Another idea was to use backer rod to make 2 rings on either side of the
mesh band, then glue a piece of flexible plastic/metal on top of the rods
to form a toroidal cavity around the wire mesh. Plumb this to the blower
with flexible hose and call it a day. I could get 3 of the 4 inlets this
way without too much trouble. All 4 would be tough.
/-B--R-----------\
| B R |
| B R Motor |==
| B R |
\-B--R-----------/
B = backer rod #1
R = backer rod #2
I don't have much room around the motor (less than 1" in places), and
blower positions are limited due to interference with the battery rack, CV
axles, steering rack, gear shift hardware, and suspension arms!
Any other suggestions?
Adrian
.
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I was having issues mounting a speed sensor on an Impulse 9" motor and
came up with a novel solution. Because the motor has a CE shaft I couldn't
just drill/tap the motor face, and the existing mounting holes are
used/covered by the Electro Auto motor mount.
As it turns out, a 2 1/2" PVC pipe COUPLER has an inside diameter
*slightly* smaller than the 2.9" diameter ring around the CE shaft. I
tapped one into place with a mallet and couldn't remove it without using
both hands! Cut the coupler down to the correct size, mount the sensor on
the end, and viola!
I do plan on mechanically securing the coupler to the motor as I don't
trust the friction fit to stay tight. I'm a bit worried that the coupler
will melt/warp/deform when the motor heats up (max working temp 140F).
Maybe I should switch to ABS pipe (180F max working temp)...
Adrian
.
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The 2/0 cable was crimped with a professional hex crimper from waytek wire.
It was not soldered. The method of testing was to connect 2 batteries in
series, with a heavy 80A load. The cable connecting the two batteries was
the strap under test. Each test was performed three times and averaged.
I attribute the higher resistance to the length of the 2/0 cable.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Shanab [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: May 9, 2006 12:18 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Battery Interconnect resistance
I looked on your site and saw the differences you had listed for battery
interconnect. I have all 2/0 with magna lugs like you have shown. I was
surprized to see that was the highest and was wondering what kind of crimper
you had and how you did this test.
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I as well as others are using the IOTA with success. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Norton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 7:40 PM
Subject: DC-DC converters
I am looking at various approaches taken to the DC accessory power for
EV's - looks like they have been:
- separate 12v battery for accessories
- tap a battery in the pack
- 12v battery with a DC-DC converter to charge the separate battery
- DC-DC converter only
The first 2 are not good approaches, and people have had bad
experiences.
My Samurai has a 30A alternator, so it seems that it wouldn't need much
to replace that for DC-DC (except Samurai drivers will replace them with
80 or 110 A units so the headlights don't dim at idle...)
So how to get even 30A? I see some 25A Sevcons. I have seen some EVs
in the album with Todd DC-DC, or DC Power Systems - are these still
available? I saw one with an IOTA DLS 220-55, which is 55A, but
according to the specs is an AC-DC converter designed from 220v AC - how
does that work?
Would this one work with an EV?
http://www.trcelectronics.com/Meanwell/sd-350d-12.shtml
It is 350W - close to 30A.
Can they be doubled up?
How are they wired in? Across the whole pack voltage?
John F. Norton
via T-Mobile Sidekick
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Thank you Rich for all your help in getting this configuration rolling!
First some background, Ron of CalCars first converted his Prius some
two years ago with help from EnergyCS/EDrive replacing a Toyota computer
and using a replacement traction battery. This has been working well
for seven or so subsequent Prius conversions with various batteries.
Within the last few months Ron has gone back to the drawing board in
an attempt to get the conversion working without the replacement
EnergyCS computer. So now Ron, ElectroEnergy, and my Makers Faire
Prius are three "conversions in progress" attempting to recreate
seamless Prius PHEV Conversions using the stock Toyota systems.
One of the issues that we've been running into is a CCL Conundrum.
http://www.eaa-phev.org/wiki/State_Of_Charge_Manipulation
In short when the Prius feels that it's battery is full it begins
to reduce the Charge Current Limit from 125Amps down to 0Amps. As
it falls below 50A EV-Only mode is disabled, which we don't like.
I've had a Hybrid-Pack section on the site for some time now which
covers the basic principals which might be implemented and which
appear to be the conversion method employed by Hymotion.
http://www.eaa-phev.org/wiki/Battery_Pack_Configurations#Hybrid
These types of configurations use both the OEM NiMH and the PHEV packs.
Within the last week or so Ron has begun testing one type of Hybrid-Pack
configuration using various string lengths in his PbA pack with a
contactor or SCR driven by reported SOC via the CAN-View. I'm calling
this a SOC-Driven Duty-Cycle Hybrid-Pack Configuration. It appears to
be working for Ron though there are some concerns about the limited
ability to control the flow of current between the two packs.
On Sunday I drove over to Rich Rudmans shop and we began experimenting
with yet another Hybrid-Pack configuration using his PFC-30 charger
as a DC-DC converter between the Stock NiMH and PHEV PbA packs.
.oO( Below you'll find Richs SEVA & EVDL post regarding our progress )
Late Sunday night we had his charger moving power from the PbA pack
to the NiMH pack at a rate of about 30Amps and were fine tuning the
voltage limit searching for the "sweet spot", which appears to be
somewhere between 235v and 238v, at 240v we begin running into the
CCL problems. I'm still not quite satisfied with the level of SOC
Drift that we are seeing, we are causing the drift however SOC is
still dropping into the low 50's while I'd like to see it stay
in the 70's. Monday Rich, Steve, and I went to Wenatchee to meet
with the AVI tech group, though before the meeting started we had
some free time and went for a drive. We ended up driving 6.4 miles
in EV-Only mode, though we had to manually slow down the PFC twice
when we noticed the CCL kicking in. We recovered from the CCL and
continued driving so it appears that we still had the voltage limit
set just a tad high. Ultimately I'm hoping to find a voltage point
at which both upward drift occurs and CCL does not come into play.
At that point we'll have a non-SOC driven spoofing configuration.
I'm still not convinced that this configuration will work as well
as I would like, and we may still need to go to a combination of
a higher voltage and duty cycle or back to a SOC and/or CCL driven
configuration.
While currently we're limiting the PFC-30 to it's "nameplate" power
rating of 30Amps (in or out), since that rating is based on AC inputs
when operating on DC we may be able to push nearly twice as much
current through the same unit. We're planing to upgrade the 30A ac
rated breaker in the charger to 40A pretty soon. Anyway, there are
still many finer points yet to be worked out and we're all very
encouraged with the progress we've made in the last two days...
L8r
Ryan
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Sorry Rod, But I am Hijacking this thread to the SEVA list and to the Main
> EVlist.
> Madman
>
> Warning... no time to spell check... phone ringing...
>
> In the last couple of Days like since Sunday... I have had my hands in
> Ryan's Pirus pretty deeply.
>
> First I will be up in PT for sure with Ryan... I just did about 250 miles in
> it, In a Ride over to Wenatchee and back. So.. I am getting some hands on
> time with the PiPrius.
>
> First the Calcars system, One didn't work as it came back from California...
> And actualy ate it self for dinner about last Wensday. The contactors
> actaully left the running System totally disconnected from both packs for a
> Brief instant.. and things smoked and failed. Ryan got it running again as a
> normal Prius after pulling some fuses and resetting suff. Lucky him.
>
> About that time I was asked if we could try my idea of using a PFC30
> charger as a buffer DC/DC converter to pull from the Add a Pack and then
> charge the Prius's NiMH pack, Being very carfull to not over voltage the
> Spendy NiMH. OK .. that's just what my chargers do very well. They have a
> pretty solid and adjustable voltage regulation setting. We just needed to
> find the Right voltage and current to NOT hurt Mr. Toyota Nice Idea...
> wonder if it works. Sunday I found Ryan and his 100 mpg Prius in my shop...
> Lets find out shall we?? OK..er... I hope I don't hurt What I can't fix.
> I dicharged the 20 amphour at 228 volt pack of B&B AGMs, I got 2700
> watt hours on the first pass. And recharged them with a PFC30 to 280 volts.
> (14.73 volts) They took power very well, and we did not let them taper below
> about 5 amps... they are new and show "Growth" at the end of a charge cycle
> by not tapering off fast. They just take it and take it..... I lost
> patientece.. and we went to the next step.
> I fed the PFC30 from the PbLa pack.. without any issues... Ok folks
> that't the first time I have officially run one of my chargers off of DC,
> and Well it all worked. I even manged to open the AC rated breaker on 218
> voltd DC.. that makes a Loud POP, with Blue stuff leaking out of the breaker
> case... 36 DC feed amp IS more than a 30 amp Beaker can stand for about 5
> minutes... abit of excitment.. No damage... Lots'O pucker factor.. This
> output was stuffed in my loadbank with our 15kw Windloader. OK.. all works
> as planned on the test bench. Now out to the Pirius. First we dailed in the
> best guess voltage the Prius's NiMH pack would want to see as the output
> limit on the PFC charger. We picked 242 from watching the CAN buss Scanner
> that Ryan has installed on the Prius.
> We ripped oout all the "other" circuits and spoofing controls and
> contactors and anything that waws not stock Toyota. All the Calcars stuff
> that was in the Prius from the Make magazine install was taken out. We left
> the prototype DeltaQ charger in and the Battery pack of course. So .. there
> is LOTS Of room behind the pack that was stuffed full of circuit boards and
> contactors and such.
>
> And we simply wired the output of the PFC30 to the NiMH pack. and wired
> the AC input of the PFC30 to the 218 volt Lead acid add on pack....and
> flipped the breaker on the charger.
> All fired up, Then we dailed in some amps while watching the volts display
> on the Can View that is being piped to the Main Prius display screen.
> The volts came up, the SOC came up... Just as planned... Then we took a
> ride....
> It was that simple...
> Prius Plug in Hybrid... Working... After a LOT of fear and testing.. it
> really was that simple.
>
> The tuning part of getting the charge computer to keep the ICE engine off,
> that took a little more tweaking. We adjusted the charge voltage down to
> about 234, and the current up to max. and it worked better, But the SOC
> would drift up too far and the engine would kick on to drop the pack back
> down, thinking it had over charged the NiMH, Then we would turn off the
> charger, and the SOC would drift dwon until the ICE came on to restore the
> pack. Well OK this is what you would exxpect for about 10 minutes of
> practice.... We upped the voltage to 237, and used the Accelerator harder
> when the SOC drifted up too much, and clearly we needed more Learning time.
> This ended at about 10:30 PM Sunday.
> Day one.. success... no smoke, and we can really charge the NiMH from the
> PbLA... and keep it all under control.
>
> Day two.. I am on the 7:10 am Ferry heading to Steve Lough's place to hook
> up with Ryan... and his trusty PFC30 enhanced Prius. We are going to
> Wenatchee, Wa on the other side of the Cascades to give a Ride and PiP Show
> for the Chelan county Dept of comerce and the Wenatche PUD, at the Wenatche
> Valley college. Cool ....And of course we ..er I needed as much time as
> possible tweaking the "Sytem"...
> Got there it was snowing like Heck up in Stevens pass.. 4000 Ft mountain
> passes... not a real good mile per Gallon number... and while Regening down
> the East slopes... Not enough room to store many Kwhr of power... 5 amphrs
> of NiMH is NOT a really big storage bank... Hummm new Mode of charger...suck
> from NiMH and recharge the PbLa... Need more contactors... But ... not while
> under way.
> First thing is to get the Pb recharged.. OK that's what we are going to
> us the DeltaQ for, It's installed, and Well it gets to do grid work while
> the PFC does the big current chores that it is buildt for.
> We can't get more than about 2 amps into the pack..OK we be charged!......or
> so we thought...
>
> We back out into the Windy sunny East slope spring Day, Wow this place
> is Stunningly beautifull. Where's the wind farm when you need it? Better
> than that.. The Chelan county PUD has 4 Hydro plants , 2 on the main
> Columbia River.. the high drop from Lake Chelan to the River... 100 of ft
> of drop...And one other that is pretty amazing on the upper end of the lake
> serving..Stehikin. And well it's been a heavy snow year.. and they just
> can't sell all they can make... in fact they have water going over the tops
> of dams.. and the main big feed from the pac NW to California is at
> capacity... They have Get this residentail goes for 2.8 Cents a Kwhr, and
> comercial is at 1.8 cents. Can you say a EVers Dream!! That a half cent
> for a mile in my EVs. Drooooool!!!
>
> We found a empty parking lot and started doing laps... mile one... no ICE.
> Mile two No ice... had to turn down the volts.. and Maxed out the PFC30s
> currrent... Mile 3... charger actually starts to ramp the fans up... Mile 4
> the charger is clearly giving us more range... Fans are getting to full
> power.... Mile 5.. SNAP!.. opened the 30 amp breaker again... with a 36 amp
> draw. Reset breaker... turned PFC down to about %75... As the SOC rises...
> we turn the PFC current to 0... as the SOC Fall below about 55% we repower
> up the PFC.... Mile 6.... time to go home....or back to the College service
> shop.
>
> Got 6.4 miles... the ICE never rotated. The NiMH is fully charged when we
> get back.. the charger has spooled down...No errors... Wow we just added
> about trippled the total EV only range a Prius has.
> Not bad for run #2, and about 24 hours of my time.
>
> We plug in the DeltaQ. It makes bout 800 watts.. OK... but we don't want to
> upset the carfull settings on the PFC30. This becomes the first mistake of
> the day. We munch donuts and Coke.... Thanks guys!
> The DQ gets hot.. we scrounge a fan.. still only 1100 watts. The crowd shows
> up for the presentation... the DQ still is taking it's bloddy time.... It
> just won't make solid big amps, it gets hot.... and won't drive the lead
> over 240 volts... I suspect the "Engineering Unit ONLY" means it's set to
> the wrong voltage... and there are other issues... Simple fact it can't fill
> our pack, and in fact has not added more than about 500 watthours to the
> pack since I did the last full power PFC30 backed charge over aday ago at
> this point. The best guess is we traveled about 10 mile on EV only mode on
> a single charge to the PbLa pack.. or something like 200 watt hours per
> mile..
> Clearly If I had wired the PFC to the lead pack and used the grid, we
> would have gotten a full pack in about 90 minutes. Even off of 120VAC at 15
> amps. Also.. the Pb pack had no Regs, No amps, No volts no SOC...not meteres
> what so ever.. just a pair of DVMs and a lot of poking. NO BMS and no
> meters. And they were on there 2 cycle in thier life... We could have had
> much metter insturmentation. but... It worked any way...
>
> So the PFC charge support from Grid to Add a pack works, The PFC from add a
> pack to to Hybrid pack works... and Well What can I say??? It can be done
> and has been done.
>
> Now I need to add contactors to allow for auto switching from Grid to
> add on pack, some logic to reprogram the charger's setpoint from one
> chemistry to the other... and maybe ports so a custom Can view or rewrite of
> the Toyota control can stear the charger... and some fuses and fans.. and
> the one PFC series charger can do all 3 modes of power processing.
>
> What I thought was a daunting computer hashing and Spoofing effort has
> become a interesting way to make a Stock PFC30 charger make it all happen.
> Clearly this kind of Plug In Hybrid system can be used on just about any
> Hybrid, with a wildly varying Source pack.. the charger can boost of Buck
> DC... You could have a 96 volt pack of floodeds charing a 360 volt pack of
> Lions... Or a 360 volt pack of Lions charging a 218 volt pack of NiMH. It
> doesn't really matter. Just adjust the target voltage right.. and you are
> off.
>
> Enough for now...I intend to have a Kit of everything you need including
> Battery pack and mounting hardware, Cables and relays available for this.
> The first effort will use Quality Hawker PbLa Batteries as the addon pack,
> and it will be taylored to the Prius... for now.
>
> I am Lusting over a Ford Escape Hybrid.. and the large Back trunk area and
> heavy duty SUV springs that can hold a really significant pack. AnyBody want
> to hand me a Escape Hybrid??? I got to drive Randy Brooks new one, I am in
> Lust.!!! 500 lbs of Lion back there??? Ev all the way to Wenatchee...from
> Seattle. Got room for Skiis and a couple Dozzen PFC cases can be kept out
> of the rain on the commute from Portland to Seattle.
>
> Dizzy... Madman
> Need sleep... Need to ship those Green boxes......
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
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