EV Digest 5483
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Vectrix
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) A Wild Ride in the Zombie and Burnouts Galore
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) TdS Report #39: More Reports Coming
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) RE: my own outlet
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Market socio-political dominance (was RE: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!)
by "Joe Vitek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: The ultimate oppertunity charge
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: my own outlet
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: my own outlet
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Vectrix
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Circuit Breaker Short Circuit Interrupting Rating
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Tour de Sol Photos
by Dave Stensland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Where's Killacycle?
by Dave Stensland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: my own outlet
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: my own outlet
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Vectrix
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Vectrix
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
by John Norton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Electric kit cars
by Daniel J Jordan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Vectrix
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
You should be able to get one to your door in Texas hopefully sometime in
the next year to year and a half, based on the latest we've heard from
Vectrix. Vectrix brought two of their bikes to the Miami Beach Earth Expo
two weeks ago, gave test rides on Ocean Drive, set up their initial South
Florida dealer network, and gave us (in the Florida EAA) an update on their
progress. In addition to their 18 existing prototype bikes, they started
their 50-bike pilot production run at their 30,000 sq.ft. New Bedford,
Massachusetts factory on May 1, which they will complete in two weeks. They
are launching full production at their 32,000 sq.ft. Wroclaw, Poland factory
in October at a rate of several hundred bikes per month. As they have
around 15,000 existing pre-production orders in Europe versus around 3,000
here in the US, the lion's share of the first year of production will be
committed to European order fulfillment but with a small share of bikes
coming off the Polish production line diverted to seeding the US market and
beginning to fulfill orders here for early adopters on a
first-come/first-served basis, based on when US retail customers signed up
on Vectrix's pre-production order sign-up form on their website. Shipping
logistics have already been worked out and put in place. DOT and European
homologation have been completed. The US factory in New Bedford, MA likely
won't be fired up until a year after the Polish plant is turned up, so
expect sometime in late 2007. If you signed up on Vectrix's US
pre-production order form on their website in 2004 to mid 2005, you can
expect to get your (Polish-assembled) bike in early-to-mid 2007. Otherwise
you'll probably have to wait until late 2007 or early 2008 to get your bike.
Charles Whalen
On Monday, May 15, 2006 6:51 AM, Mark Hastings wrote:
I just want to know how to get one to my door in texas. That would be
wonderful for my wifes commute and she really likes it. There seems to be
nothing else on two wheeled like that available that can go 55mph, or for
that matter three or four wheeled for a reasonable price.
Death to All Spammers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/765 Seems it is no longer vaporware.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 14 May 2006 22:48, Death to All Spammers wrote:
The auto industry says there is no demand for EVs, but a used RAV4
sells for $20K over MSRP? Seems to disprove their statement...unless
someone bid this high from auction fever, or the collectors' value?
On Monday, May 15, 2006 7:40 AM, John Norton wrote:
It tells you about the market for *1* of these things.
When offered for lease, Toyota found about 300 customers a year.
Even if they sold them all at 67k, there is no business case for them at
those volumes.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. There are two different Silicon Valley
startup ventures that have each raised millions of dollars in venture
capital for a business model of selling only 100 or less EVs a year at
$80-100k a piece in both cases. I have not seen the business plan of either
one, and like you, I would personally question that business model and might
have some doubts about it, especially when taking into account the many
millions that have been invested and the prospects for full return and
profitability on all that capital invested. But I know and have spoken with
others who *have* seen the specific details of those business models,
including some very well-connected, long-time EVers and engineers, and who
think that the business model (@ 100 or less vehicles per year) makes sense.
I really don't know and can't say myself. But some of the most savvy and
successful Silicon Valley venture capital firms are betting millions of
their own money and their investors' funds to try to prove you, me, and
conventional wisdom wrong on that.
Then of course you've also got major automakers like Porsche who are able to
make a profit on selling only a few hundred cars a year for some of their
premium models. So the precedents for this do exist and are out there
today.
Charles Whalen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey everyone,
I just arrived back from the EV festivities in Joilet. Although the
events went on through Sunday I had to leave early Sunday morning to
catch a plane back for Mother's Day.
I guess everyone heard about the event being rained out. The Route 66
track decided to cancel the Saturday Alt Fuel Expo and the NEDRA High
Voltage Nationals on Friday night. I felt bad for John Emde and the
Fox Valley Folks, like Ted and Todd who put hours of work. And guys
like Matt Graham who drove all the way from Florida with their cars and
John, Tim, Father Time and Jim who travelled from Oregon to race. Bob
Salem who travelled from Ohio with his VW Truck. Darin Gilbert from
Detroit with his bike. Bob Rice from Connecticut with his car. And Bill
Dube coming from Colorado with the Killacycle.
After we heard the racing event was cancelled. John Wayland was
determined to race so he looked for some area tracks. There was a track
in Wisconsin about 80 miles away that looked promising. In the meantime
the Fox Valley folks said the event would move to the Pep Boys parking
lot a couple blocks from the Motel 6.
I'm not sure if John ever found a track but everyone brought their cars
to the Pep Boys parking lot under overcast skies but it was safe enough
to keep the hoods open for several hours.
John was itching to do something with the Zombie so we all thought it
would be cool to do some burnouts in the parking lot. Matt was game and
wanted to join the fun so he positioned his 300V Nissan 240SX into the
lane and Tim moved the 360 or 340 volt Zombie right behind Matts so
they were rear bumper to rear bumper. Then they let loose. The first
burnout was the best with both cars letting loose of some smoke but too
much traction to stay in one spot and they quickly bolted ahead. They
took advantage of the puddles in the parking lot and tried wetting the
tires but the Zombie still took off even with the front wheels locked
down. And even with wheel chocks the Zombie pushed those effortlessly
up the parking lot. Proof that the recent gearing changes to the Zombie
had some effect on the traction. This car needed to see some Street
Action fast.
John Emde's Aggravated Battery dragster attempted to do some burnouts
but the dragster couldn't stay still long enough to do a burnout and
QUICKLY shot down the lot. These EVs are definitly quick off the line.
Darin did a really cool burnout with his Pirahna and earlier in the day
Shawn Waggoner did a wild burnout with his Orange Crush Pocket Bike
which was running one of Jim Husted's motor creations.
The wildest burnout of the day belonged to Bob Rice. Yep, that's right.
Bob Rice's lead sled - his electric Rabbit. We chocked the back wheels
and Bob just sat there and did one of the longest burnouts I've ever
seen. Smoke was everywhere. Even coming out of the hood and filling
inside the passenger compartment and we couldn't see Bob in the car! It
was aweseome. He commented that once the car settled in at 145 volts at
340 amps it just effortlessly sat there and burned rubber. He could
have kept going till the rubber wore down to the rims and I bet we
would have seen a spectacular spark show had it come to that.
After the burnouts, John Wayland waved me over and said. "Chip, come
over here and get in the Zombie!" So I strapped myself into the
co-pilots seat and Tim took the controls. I had no idea what to expect.
This was the first time I had ever seen the Zombie in person and
actually the first time the car has been driven on the street since the
latest changes were made. We headed out of the parking lot onto
Jefferson Street. Tim took every opportunity he had to get squirlly
with the car. It was awesome! We were going down the road at about 35
mph and then to my surprise Tim just let loose. The acceleration
snapped my head back against the seat so hard that my NEDRA hat flipped
backwards and landed in the back of the car. I guess you can say my hat
was officially initiated. I couldn't believe it. The acceleration, even
when gunning it from 35 mph was incredible. The whole trip was like
that. Tim would find an opening in the traffic and just let it go,
slowing down only when a cop would pass by or when the traffic was
getting a bit tight. It was like a roller coaster ride. The Zombie is
so light and responsive. When we got back John said, "What do you
think?" Actually I had the EV Zombie grin which pretty much said it
all. But I was a little let down when John said he had limited the
Zombie to 800 amps so I wasn't experiencing "everything" the Zombie
could dish out! Maybe that's a good thing because I might be in
traction right now in a hospital in Joliet if he had turned it all the
way up. Tim was telling me when he races the Zombie he gets bruises and
his neck often aches after driving the car. I believe it. You don't
drive this car you aim it. A word of advice if John ever gives you a
ride in the Zombie. Brace yourself and hold onto your hats.
I'll have pictures up of some of the highlights of the day,
particularly the burnouts, on the NEDRA site later this evening. A
larger album of pictures will be on the MegawattMotorworks.com site
once I send them to Dave Stensland.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #39: More Reports Coming
The Winners have been announced, but the Reports have not ended. There are
several more hours of interviews and lot of pictures coming. Stay tuned.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2006 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2006 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Stef Komorowski
Classic Communications
508-698-6810
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Cover wrote:
> Shouldn't we be concerned with little Igor playing with two
> pieces of wire? Or any combination?
> Limiting this argument to just a fork (i.e. not considering
> the person as part of the conductive path) falls short of
> considering all the real possibilities.
Well, discussion has revolved about the example scenario that was
proposed, whether it happens to be a really good one or not ;^>
I'm not convinced that we should be particularly concerned about Igor
playing with wires, etc. where he has to deliberately stick something
into an outlet to get himself into danger. It seems to me that the most
important concern should be to ensure there is a working GFCI to protect
the innocent bystander from a dangerous shock resulting from touching a
parked EV while charging.
As has been pointed out numerous times, there are all sorts of outlets
already in publicly accessible places that determined kids could amuse
themselves with, yet there doesn't seem to be a huge problem with kids
going out and electrocuting themselves.
I do like the idea of placing the outlet inside a lockable box so that
access to the outlet is restricted while the EV is not plugged in, and
so that the box can be locked to prevent someone unplugging the EV when
it is charging, however, even this is a measure that little Igor can
defeat if he is really determined. At what point do you draw the line
and decide that you've taken reasonable measures to prevent accidental
injury to a child? I think the lockable box, or a lockable retainer to
hold the plug into the female end of an ordinary extension cord must be
pretty near the upper end of what can be done. At the lower end, I
think that for an ordinary 120V outlet, equipping it with some form of
child safety cover and protecting it with GFCI is arguably enough as it
is then already better protected than 99% of publicly accessible
outlets.
The oldest of my 3 kids is now 5, and I can attest that a simple child
safety cover for household 5-15 outlets that provides shutters over the
contacts
(e.g.
<http://www.childsafetystore.com/.sc/ms/dd/ee/25/Standard%20Outlet%20Cov
er%20by%20KidCo>)
provides excellent protection against a young child sticking something
into an outlet. One can even buy decora style receptacles with the
safety shutters built in
(eg. <http://www.rewci.com/detareouprch.html>, or
<http://www.konceptech.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=
K&Product_Code=DS5000-W>)
I would recommend these over the shuttered cover, since the additional
depth of the shuttered cover reduces the amount of blade that makes
contact inside the 5-15 outlet.
Here's a type of cover that offers much of the security of a locking
box, but retrofittable to an existing duplex receptacle and without the
need for keys:
<http://www.safety1st.com/product.asp?productID=170>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The author actually devotes a chapter to EVs and point out that they
> have some of the signs of being a "disruptive" technology and their
> success or failure will largely depend on how car manufacturers choose
> to build the market. As we all know the auto companies choose to do EVs
> from within their existing organizations and becuase of that (according
> to the author's theory) were destined to fail. Sales people steering
> people to other cars, GM's public statements about the inability to
> profit from the EV1 and the like are signs that this type of
> subconscience sabotaging of the disruptive technology.
Will someone step up and become the next Preston Thomas Tucker of the EV world?
Buuuttt,
this time, follow through intelligently? Or will such a startup be quashed by
negative/bad
press and dominant market players to the point of smashing innovation?
Will it ever happen that new technology such as this will be brought to market
by a
company of people who will not succumb to big oil (and their political cronies)?
It will be an extremely tough one to crack...
--
joe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I intended to come, but the weather sort of screwed things
up. My household has been juggling one car around as of
late, so once the rain cancelled the event, that was pretty
much it. I had no idea who was going to be there when they
moved it to the Pep Boy's parking lot, and I heard things
like 'Omaha' or 'Wisconsin' as being places where the races
would then be held.
Oh well. I'll meet Plasmaboy and his white bitch one of
these days... I was really looking forward to attending the
meet at Route 66.
I did see the video of Matt Graham and John Wayland racing
in the parking lot. God damn that looked fun! Two cars that
will do 0-60 in under 4 seconds and best Porsches, Ferraris,
and Corvettes in acceleration... You don't see that every
day!
The photos of the Zombie and all the rubber caking its ass
end are revealing in regard to its tire roasting aptitude.
That smell of roasted rubber must have been refreshing.
The acceleration must have been even more sickening than a
Shelby Cobra. I remember hearing stories from old farts in
their childhood, how there'd be a $20 bill tapedto the
dashboard. Where if the passenger could grab it while
accelerating, they'd be able to keep it. Every time, no one
can grab it! Riding in the zombie must be like that, times
ten, from Chip's description. I'm waiting for it to get a
Siamese 9 or a monster WarP 13". That would pull... 10s?
Aren't many street legal gas cars that can do that and still
pass inspection and emissions, and maintain stock doors and
windows, even though they do exist(and have $100k+ dumped
into them).
John warned me to wear rubber shorts. I imagine that warning
would have been dead on had I left.
John must be disappointed. I know I was. Given who was there
at that parking lot, I certainly regret not having left...
but given the circumstances, I was entirely unaware of who
was going to be there, and nothing new was posted on the
fveaa website until late. By the time I'd normally have left
for Chcicago(4AM), I was thinking John would be headed to
some other track where the rain didn't shut it down.
I really don't know how to apologize for not showing up. I
am kicking myself right now for not leaving.
Jim Husted wrote:
>The list of stories will be long and deep. On a side
>note to John Westland... you are going to have to deal
>with Wayland dude!!! And to top it off White Zombie has
>never been faster and the rides had never been free-er.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:46 PM 5/15/2006, you wrote:
Nick Austin wrote:
> Well, he may be burned, but will likely live.
>
> The fork will experience severe resistive heating in this
> case, likely giving Igor 1st or 2nd degree burns on his hand.
Have that few people on this list actually ever caused an accidental
short that resulted in opening an AC breaker? Surely more of us have
first hand experience with tripping breakers than that?
The heating will be so localised and short in duration that Igor's hand
won't be burned at all. The tip of the last fork tine to make contact
in the outlet may be vaporised, but the temperature of the fork anywhere
Igor can touch is unlikely to change perceptibly.
Anyone who has ever tripped the breaker on a 120V circuit by
accidentally shorting a pair of wires, knows that the breaker trips so
fast that the wires don't heat enough to melt their insulation; indeed,
they don't warm to the touch.
> Also, if his other hand touches the grounded outlet box, or
> he has a hand on the ground, the small amount of leakage
> current should also trip the GFCI correct?
Right. The most dangerous scenario is that Igor does not present any
leakage path to ground at all. In this case there is no imbalance to
trip the GFCI while the current through Igor is at a safe level.
Cheers,
Roger.
Several 6th grade students, each with a paper clip, and an eraser.
Also after a few days and dozens of tripped breakers and blow fuses, one
very irate janitor.;)
Paper clip did not heat up enough to even come close to melting the eraser.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is an interesting additional data point.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/electric/bregnd.html#c5
This of course only reinforces the need for GFCI.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oops. Got me. I guess I should have checked my source. Lawrence Rhodes
Hmmm so it is still vaporware........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: Vectrix
By the way, I just got word from a senior executive at Vectrix who said in
no uncertain terms that that guy Roger Layola in Barcelona, Spain does
*NOT*
have Vectrix bike. There is no one, not a single customer, who has one
yet.
Deliveries will not start until November.
That guy just copied all of the info and photos off of Vectrix's website
and
then put them up on the EV Album.
Charles Whalen
On Sunday, May 14, 2006 7:52 PM, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/765 Seems it is no longer vaporware.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello All,
Sometime ago, I witness a test on a display of every manufacture circuit
breaker interrupting rating for standard household use.
The test that the factory rep. did, was connecting up a standard 120 vac 20
amp receptacle to a 20 amp 120 VAC 1 pole circuit breaker and pushing in a
paper clip into the receptacle.
He would use a insulated long nose holding the paper clip, while pushing it
into the receptacle. All but one circuit breaker would turn the paper clip
to red hot.
He than repeated the test holding it with his fingers making sure he did not
ground him self out. The paper clip remain ice cold. I being a electrician
at the time and can work with 120 volts live, did this test. Did not feel a
thing.
This is a Square D plug in circuit breaker, normally used for residential
used. Other company circuits breakers at the time, had to be a special type
to do this.
This was not a GFI circuit breaker, just the standard Square D circuit
breaker.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I went to Hollywood Toyota looking for a RAV4 EV, the salesman kept
insisting that I DIDN'T want one...until I pointed out the fact that I had
driven there in an EV. Then he said, "Oh, you're one of THOSE people"...
My next EV's going to be a Mitsubishi:^O
Marv
Culver City, CA
PS: I keep hearing people talk about how Toyota was only able to lease
300/year. Not bad considering zero marketing and zero advertising. Same with
the sales. They "only" sold 300, but it's never mentioned that they sold
every unit they had on hand a full year ahead of schedule. Again, with zero
marketing and zero advertising. How frustrating it must have been for them
to have a product which obviously sold itself, all the while they were
trying their darndest to bury it. Just like trying to bury a bag of cats
that keep climbing out of the hole...
> From: Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 10:18:47 -0700
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
>
> On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 08:33:30AM -0700, David Murphy wrote:
>> I agree that this price doesn't tell you much about the broader
>> market. However, I'd like to share my own experience trying to get
>> info on one of these when it was for sale.
>
> Wow, this is eerily similar to the experience I had when trying to get a
> RAV4 EV.
>
> I was looking at one on the lot, and a sales man came over and told me the
> gas version of the RAV was much better!
>
> He then said that the RAV4 EV is not nearly as reliable as most Toyota
> products, and because of this there is no extended warranty to be had.
>
> I then jokingly asked if he does not make a commission on these cars, and he
> told me that customers who are upset with the RAV4EV take it out on there
> sales men.
>
> I told him I was still interested, and asked if I could take a test drive.
>
> I was never able to take a test drive, or even get started on the purchase
> process.
>
> Perhaps if I was more persistent, I would have gotten one? This was in early
> 2003, when the program was basically over.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The weather held off long enough for me to get some good photos of the
electrics (and a few notable hybrids) at the Tour de Sol event this
year. I'll give more details in the future, but posted them now in the
spirit of timeliness...
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com/resource.asp?
func=display&resid=1265&tree=536&thumb=1
Here are a few quick observations...
The alt-fuel section was surrounded by dozens of absolutely stunning
classic cars: Bentleys, Rolls Royce, Porsche, Austin Healey, Jags,
etc... but the alt-fuel section had the most spectators by far.
The alt-fuel section was swamped with grease cars and hybrids, but
there was a good showing of electrics as well. Even though fuel cell
cars seemed to be a joke to most of the exhibitors I spoke to the kids
were still being indoctrinated with fuel cell mentality with their
little race car toys.
Several hybrids in the crowd bridged the gap that exists between pure
electrics and gas hybrids.
Enjoy,
-Dave
http://megwattmotorworks.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Hawkins (A.K.A. Battery Boy Hawkins) was last spotted earlier this
afternoon on I68 east of Cumberland, Maryland... approaching Hancock.
There he was white knuckling over 10,000' passes he didn't know existed
on this side of the US.
As we spoke on the phone he had a hair-raising experience. While going
down a 6% grade into Cumberland, MD, a full-out runaway semi-truck
carrying a load of steel flew past his window at close to 100 MPH! The
speed limit for trucks on that stretch of road was only 40 MPH. The
runaway truck billowed road-obscuring smoke. We fully expected the semi
to loose control but somehow it didn't. The semi's brakes and tires
were on the verge of catastrophic failure but the truck pressed on
towards the next hill. Hawkins passed just so he could see the road and
clear some of the choking brake smoke (asbestos?) so he could breath.
We're unsure of the fate of the crazed semi-truck driver, but Hawkins
was not passed again during the time we spoke.
I also heard a few more tales of Chicago happenings. These guys had a
lot of fun, folks, and you're going to hear many more stories in the
days ahead.
Hawkins will be in Baltimore, Maryland tonight in preparation for the
AABC Conference... http://www.advancedautobat.com/
-Dave
http://megawattmotorworks.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
> The heating will be so localised and short in duration that Igor's
> hand won't be burned at all.
In general, this has been my experience as well. I've accidentally cut
"live" cords with uninsulated wire cutters, and grabbed wires that I
thought were dead with uninsulated needle-nosed pliers that accidentally
bridged them to ground. What ensued was a scary BANG! and pieces got
burned out of the respective tool.
But, I didn't get a shock myself nor was the tool noticeably warm after
the event. Sure, I jumped! But it was simple surprise and fright, not
from an electrical shock.
Roland Weinch wrote:
> Sometime ago, I witness a test on a display of every manufacturer's
> circuit breaker interrupting rating for standard household use.
I've seen similar demos. The "trick" is that the higher quality breakers
have both magnetic and thermal trip elements. The thermal element allows
a modest current overload for a relatively long time (for motor
starting, for example). The magnetic element trips "instantly" if the
current exceeds some well defined threshold.
Many cheap circuit breakers only have thermal elements. These take a
significant time to trip even at quite high currents. They are the ones
that would let the paper clip get red hot.
As in all things, price and quality make a difference.
Dave Cover wrote:
> Shouldn't we be concerned with little Igor playing with two pieces
> of wire? Or any combination? Limiting this argument to just a fork
> (i.e. not considering the person as part of the conductive path)
> falls short of considering all the real possibilities.
I'm certain there are circumstances where someone could get electrocuted
from an outdoor outlet, even one with a good circuit breaker and GFCI.
For instance, little Igor could get two bare wires, hold one in each
hand, and poke them into the hot and neutral receptacles.
My view is that while such a scenario is possible, it is highly
unlikely. The miniscule risk does not justify extremes like the
Magnecharger. It's akin to early motor vehicle laws that required a
flagman to preceed the car down the road to warn people that it was
coming. Such laws are fearmongering to prevent progress.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 06:41:25PM -0500, Lee Hart wrote:
> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > The heating will be so localised and short in duration that Igor's
> > hand won't be burned at all.
>
> In general, this has been my experience as well.
<..snip..>
>
> Roland Weinch wrote:
> > Sometime ago, I witness a test on a display of every manufacturer's
> > circuit breaker interrupting rating for standard household use.
>
> I've seen similar demos. The "trick" is that the higher quality breakers
> have both magnetic and thermal trip elements.
Ahhh! Now we are getting somewhere.
If you have a nice breaker with a magnetic disconnect for surges, then Igor
will be fine. If you have a crappy breaker lacking the magnetic breaker, then
Igor may be burned.
This was the difference I was missing.
> As in all things, price and quality make a difference.
So true in many cases!
> Dave Cover wrote:
> > Shouldn't we be concerned with little Igor playing with two pieces
> > of wire? Or any combination? Limiting this argument to just a fork
> > (i.e. not considering the person as part of the conductive path)
> > falls short of considering all the real possibilities.
>
<..snip..>
> For instance, little Igor could get two bare wires, hold one in each
> hand, and poke them into the hot and neutral receptacles.
>
> My view is that while such a scenario is possible, it is highly
> unlikely.
Seems fairly unlikely.
> The miniscule risk does not justify extremes like the
> Magnecharger.
Agreed. For that single risk, a setup like a Magnecharger seems silly.
A better solution to this problem is to have a simple locking cover on the
outlet. A GFCI protected outlet that deenergizes when you pull on the
cable, and wont allow high voltage to be present on the pins with out the car
connected sounds pretty good.
> It's akin to early motor vehicle laws that required a
> flagman to preceed the car down the road to warn people that it was
> coming. Such laws are fearmongering to prevent progress.
Except that law creates a huge onerous requirement on people for little
benefit, and this one creates a small burden for a lot of benefit.
It seems we have a tendency in the EV community to cut corners on safety all
the time.
I recall posts where people have been charging with bad boy chargers that
include 100ft extension cords dropped into buckets of water for generating
voltage drops, people building EVs with a non-isolated HV packs, people
driving EVs without main contactors that go out of control when the controller
fails, etc, etc.
A few guidelines to protect the public seems like a reasonable thing to me.
But I think I can see where you are coming from. If you were not asked or your
input was not accepted during the guideline forming process, or if the rules
make it harder to do ultra high power charging that is a bummer. But it really
does increase the safety to you and the population at large.
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Just got an update from Vectrix's European CEO (and former CEO of Ducati),
who said that Roger Layola of Barcelona, Spain is an early adopter customer
who is at the top of the order list to get one of the first bikes off the
Polish production line in October/November. He is scheduled to receive his
bike in November. Roger is also joining Vectrix at the Barcelona MotOh!
Event (Spain's major two-wheel annual exhibition) this week, although he
doesn't have any connection with the company other than as a very
enthusiastic customer (which I guess probably explains why he jumped the gun
a little on putting his Vectrix maxi-scooter up on the EV Album 6 months
prior to actually taking possession of it).
Charles Whalen
On Monday, May 15, 2006 3:02 PM, Charles Whalen wrote:
By the way, I just got word from a senior executive at Vectrix who said in
no uncertain terms that that guy Roger Layola in Barcelona, Spain does
*NOT* have a Vectrix bike. There is no one, not a single customer, who
has one yet. Deliveries will not start until November.
That guy just copied all of the info and photos off of Vectrix's website
and then put them up on the EV Album.
Charles Whalen
On Sunday, May 14, 2006 7:52 PM, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/765 Seems it is no longer vaporware.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Not sure where he got that price from, unless he means the net price after
federal tax credits, but that bill is still working its way through Congress
and hasn't been signed into law yet. Vectrix's US MSRP is expected to be
closer to $8,000, which is about $1,500 more than comparable 400-600cc
gas-powered maxi-scooters (all of which, by the way, are considerably slower
than Vectrix in acceleration). Existing tax regulations give a $4,000
federal tax credit for the purchase of new BEVs but are limited to 4-wheeled
BEVs only and don't provide any incentives for 2-wheeled BEVs. Current
legislation before Congress would extend the federal tax credit for BEVs to
2-wheeled BEVs such as the Vectrix maxi-scooter but a reduced level of
$2,000. If passed, this would bring the effective net price for the Vectrix
maxi-scooter down to around $6,000 in the US.
Charles Whalen
On Monday, May 15, 2006 10:55 AM, Mike Phillips wrote:
About $6200usd. I like the specs. It would fit my commute lifestyle
very well.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/765 Seems it is no longer vaporware.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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On Mon, 15 May 2006 16:23, Charles Whalen wrote:
On Monday, May 15, 2006 7:40 AM, John Norton wrote:
It tells you about the market for *1* of these things.
When offered for lease, Toyota found about 300 customers a year.
Even if they sold them all at 67k, there is no business case for them
at
those volumes.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. There are two different Silicon
Valley
startup ventures that have each raised millions of dollars in venture
capital for a business model of selling only 100 or less EVs a year at
$80-100k a piece in both cases. I have not seen the business plan of
either
one, and like you, I would personally question that business model and
might
have some doubts about it, especially when taking into account the many
millions that have been invested and the prospects for full return and
profitability on all that capital invested. But I know and have spoken
with
others who *have* seen the specific details of those business models,
including some very well-connected, long-time EVers and engineers, and
who
think that the business model (@ 100 or less vehicles per year) makes
sense.
I really don't know and can't say myself. But some of the most savvy
and
successful Silicon Valley venture capital firms are betting millions of
their own money and their investors' funds to try to prove you, me, and
conventional wisdom wrong on that.
Know the hit rate of Silicon Valley venture firms? They have many more
failures than successes. Savvy Valley investors thought Lifeminders
(and thousands of other dot bombs) was good enough to invest in. And
that was something that theoretically they know about. Silicon Valley
was also gaga over the Segway. Not sure they have a lot of insight (no
pun intended) into transportation issues.
But, sure, maybe they'll be a hit. Though no VC I know is interested in
a market that will be limited to 30m annually. If they are interested,
it is because they think the market is bigger than that.
Then of course you've also got major automakers like Porsche who are
able to
make a profit on selling only a few hundred cars a year for some of
their
premium models. So the precedents for this do exist and are out there
today.
Porsche asks more than a half million a copy for Carrera GT's, and it
leverages (and helps amortize) existing capacity in the race car shop.
The point, though, is, that while it is fun to blame "secret lists" or
oil cronies or the abnormal psychology of others for the lack of a
market for EVs, that's not really the case.
The problem still remains that it isn't a good economic choice. A gas
RAV *is* better than a EV RAV in just about every measure - how much gas
can the $20k difference between a gas and electric buy? And Toyota, who
sells more models of hybrid at higher volumes than anyone else, is
suddenly a bad actor because they won't drink the koolaid.
I don't think there is one person who believes lead acid technology will
supplant gasoline. Advanced battery technologies have a chance, but
we've all done the math on those. Those prices will come down, but
until they do.... I don't believe that resistance to new technology is
the reason, either. Consider the following: personal computers, cell
phones, compact discs, DVDs, HD TV, the internet...all of these had
existing, powerful entrenched interests that would have preferred that
they not succeed, but they were adopted rapidly anyway.
For evs to succeed, they will have to make economic sense. Europe is
supposedly more enlightened, they pay more than twice as much for gas,
and they are used to little cars without big honking V8s - there isn't a
market there, either. Or in China, where they have more of a share of
imported oil, and "at least the government can tell you what to do,"
doesn't have one either. Even in the conversion world, the economics
don't make sense. Look at a low tech piece like a motor adaptor - for
my Samurai, I can get an adaptor for a Vortec V6 for $250 - for an
electric motor, its $750. Oil company conspiracy maybe?
Bottom line is that an ev will have to be just as useful and about the
same price as ICE to be a competitor in the marketplace - and it will
have to be a lot better or a lot cheaper ( or a little of both) to
displace it. When cd players were $1000, only the few would choose them
over cassette or vinyl, even if they were clearly better in sound. Now
they are the same price or cheaper, "record" stores don't even carry
vinyl.
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I am interested in getting and converting a porsche speedster replica
into an ev. I know green motorworks built some in the 90's. I've also
seen a 359 speedster converted too (a 959 based on 356 speedster molds).
Is this a viable conversion? I am looking for quick, but not fast car
for use on days off (20-40 mile range would be fine). Thanks!
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On Sunday, May 14, 2006 10:32 PM, Cowtown wrote:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/765 Seems it is no longer vaporware.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
What I'd like to know is where did they get large-capacity NiMH cells
- I thought no-one was currently licensed to make them...or has that
changed?
Vectrix gets them from Gold Peak in China. They are 30Ah NiMH batteries.
And yes, contrary to popular misconception, there is one -- and I believe
only one -- NiMH battery manufacturer which is actually permitted to produce
large-format NiMH batteries for BEVs sold in the US market under license
from Cobasys, and that is Gold Peak.
Chevron's subsidiary Cobasys controls the exclusive worldwide patent
licensing rights on NiMH batteries. Cobasys is sometimes referred to as a
"joint venture" between Chevron and ECD Ovonics, which indeed it *is*. But
Chevron put up 100% of the $180 million investment capital to create
Cobasys; none came from ECD Ovonics. Cobasys is not carried on ECD Ovonics'
books. It is carried entirely on Chevron's books as a wholly-owned
subsidiary of Chevron. As the originator of the key NiMH patent portfolio,
ECD Ovonics *does* however receive profit share from the production of
Cobasys' own NiMH batteries as well as a share of the royalties from the
production of NiMH batteries by Cobasys' licensees. The top executives of
Cobasys come from Chevron and are clearly in the driver's seat. There is no
doubt that Chevron is the one that is calling the shots at Cobasys. A
senior Chevron executive was quoted off-the-record 6 months ago as saying
that Chevron was determined not to go down the BEV path again and never to
let that happen again in the automotive industry, at least not with NiMH
batteries.
Every NiMH battery manufacturer in the world must be licensed by Cobasys and
can only produce NiMH batteries under Cobasys license, a de-facto
monopolistic (albeit legal) syndicate that has been repeatedly adjudicated,
upheld, and enforced by courts and arbitration bodies around the world.
Cobasys has around 30 NiMH licensees at present. Its entangling web of
licenses with its various licensees could only be described as Byzantine in
its dizzying complexity, with numerous categories of restrictions including
geographic market segment (Asia vs. North America vs. Europe), application
category (consumer electronics vs. automotive propulsion), sub-application
classes within application categories (HEV vs. BEV), and even battery
capacity (<10Ah vs. >10Ah). Some of these licenses pre-date Chevron's
involvement and were negotiated back in the early and mid 90s by Cobasys'
predecessor, Ovonics, which controlled the patent licensing rights before
Chevron bailed Ovonics out of its deep, steep recurrent losses and supplied
all the capital to create Cobasys. Chevron of course had to honor those
older licenses, which are grandfathered. What this means in practical terms
is that the oldest licensees have the most liberal and unrestricted
conditions.
Newer licensees, many of them in Asia, are restricted to making NiMH
batteries only for consumer electronics applications and are specifically
prohibited from making any batteries for automotive propulsion (whether HEV
or BEV). Slightly older licensees are permitted to make propulsion
batteries but only for HEV applications and not for BEV applications, often
distinguished by the batteries' capacity: <10Ah vs. >10Ah. Others may be
permitted to make BEV batteries but only for other geographical markets and
not for BEVs that will be sold in North America. European battery makers
Saft and Varta (the latter now a subsidiary of Wisconsin-based Johnson
Controls) are two of the older European licensees which seem to have
somewhat less restrictive licenses, which however do not permit them to sell
BEV batteries into the US market. Gold Peak is one of the oldest Cobasys
licensees (inherited and grandfathered from Ovonics), if not *the* oldest,
and I believe is the only one that is actually permitted to make
large-format NiMH batteries (>10Ah) for BEVs that will be sold in the US,
such as the high-performance, highway-capable Vectrix electric motorcycle.
Sanyo and Panasonic, two of Cobasys' Japanese licensees, are permitted to
make HEV batteries (<10Ah) for HEVs sold in the US but not BEV batteries
(>10Ah) for BEVs sold in the US. There is only one small exception to that,
specifically in the case of Panasonic, which came out of the patent
infringement lawsuit that Panasonic lost to Cobasys in an international
court of arbitration in June 2004. In that June 2004 judgment, and as
subsequently amended in July 2005, Panasonic is permitted to manufacture new
EV-95 95Ah NiMH batteries solely for existing Toyota RAV-EVs that experience
battery failures, under warranty, and only under warranty, until the last of
those warranties expire, on September 14, 2008, at which time Panasonic is
no longer permitted to produce *any* EV-95 batteries or any NiMH battery
with a capacity greater than 10Ah until January 1, 2015.
Well, that's a long answer to a short question, but it's a complex subject.
Hope that helps to explain it.
Charles Whalen
Delray Beach, FL
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