EV Digest 5490
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Prius Taxi
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Dump Charge Current
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Be careful what you wish for..
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Fw: Vectrix
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Brushless turnkey system available
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV Copyright Infringement running rampant
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Fw: Vectrix
by "Michael Neverdosky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: RAV, Insight motors, was: Vectrix
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: More Prius PHEV trip data!
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV Copyright Infringement running rampant
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: AC vs. DC
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: AC vs. DC
by "Michael Neverdosky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) White Zombie terrorizes quiet hillbilly community in Idaho
by "John Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Fw: Vectrix
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Battery Rotation Scheme
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: AC vs. DC
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Whoops. Left the charger on
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: RAV, Insight motors, was: Vectrix
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: AC vs. DC
by "Michael Neverdosky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 16 May 2006 at 16:20, Steven Lough wrote:
> So the gentelmen who said something about a taxi in the Rain, telling a
> potential customer he was "Out of Battery".... is a case that would Never
> come UP..
That was with reference to a RAV4-EV taxi, not a Prius taxi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was asked about dump charging from a larger off-board battery pack the
other day, and it started me thinking. Given a 13 battery 156 Volt
(nominal) battery pack, what size pack would be the most appropriate match
for a rapid dump charge? If we assume that we want the dump pack near full
discharge as the EV pack reaches full charge, then something like an 18
battery 216 Volt dump pack would match. This could mean as much as a 90+
Volt difference when they are first connected, and flatten to a near zero
Volt difference when full charge is reached. To my mind this sounds like
ridiculously high currents at the start and barely a trickle near the end.
Mike Chancey,
Mike,
I recently played with building a dump charger for my motorcycle and what
you describe is very much what my experience was. I was working with my
NiCads, so I had the option of increasing the dump pack by as little as 1.2
volts at a time. I could not find a balance I was happy with for the
timeframes I was hoping to get things done in. I was hoping to do a 10 - 15
minute charge time. In order to get it within 30 minutes I had to start
with higher currents than what I originally planned and still found the end
to slow down much to quickly. In my case I needed to get the pack all the
way full, and it just did not work out. It was fun to watch the emeter run
backwards quickly though.
If you only want to get a partial charge then a single battery pack can be
picked fairly easy. If you want to quickly get a good fill, then I think
you need to start out with a lower voltage dump pack and stop once or twice
to add another battery in. Of course this part get's tricky because then
your dump pack is using batteries at different states of charge.
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Congratulations on such good work Gadget,
once USA is under EV power, please come other the pond to materialize same
EV miracle here, would be pleased to meet you and Kimmie again :^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 12:25 AM
Subject: Be careful what you wish for..
> We started Left Coast Conversions to do some
> conversions here in Los Angeles and raise public
> awareness for electric vehicles. The vision started to
> grow and took on a life of it's own. Well now, we are
> raising capitol to really do this right, we are
> planing on going public this year, and will be
> negotiating licenses with some of our suppliers to
> manufacture in house to have parts in stock and ready
> to go. And we are designing new products to make
> conversions much simpler. This will benefit everyone.
> If you are already a seller of parts for EV's, you can
> become a dealer. I don't want to cut anyone out. I am
> much better off with a system of dealers in place.
>
> The new trailer for Who Killed the Electric Car is out
> at
> http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/
> I have a little shot in it where the announcer asks
> "who do you think killed the electric car?" and I say
> "I think it's big oil". I hope that doesn't get a
> contract out on me. LOL. but I do get to talk about
> doing conversions so people know we are in business.
>
> We also had a little blurb in the LA weekly titled
> "Who Resurrected the Electric Car?". That should go
> into a full blown article in the next few weeks.
>
> And I had KABC news here doing an interview yesterday,
> which I thought would be a little snippet on the
> evening news...I was told it was going to be a
> "piece", whatever that is. I was interviewed for a
> full two hours.
>
> We also have Tommy Chong's car (Cheech and Chong, that
> 70's show)in the shop. As soon as we iron out the
> contracts, we will start the conversion. It is a 1946
> Oldsmobile lowrider. It will be used in Tommy's new
> movie. It is written into the script as an ICE beater.
> Comedy will be the medium to showcase EV's. We are
> negotiating to have the car as a featured vehicle at
> the SEMA show in Las Vegas in November, and at the CES
> in January, also in Los Vegas.
>
> Things have been going so well, that I think I might
> just wear out my goosebump reflex. Is that possible?
> There are even more things in the works, and I will
> post them here as they become reality. What a wild
> ride this is....
>
> visit my websites at www.reverendgadget.com, gadgetsworld.org,
leftcoastconversions.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence,
You must not have read what I wrote, or at least you didn't do so very
carefully. Take a look at what I wrote; it's right here below as quoted in
your response to me. I spoke of the Vectrix bike's acceleration vis-a-vis
"comparable 400-600cc gas-powered maxi-scooters." That would be the Suzuki
Burgman 400, the Yamaha Majesty 400, and the Honda Silver Wing 450 (I think
it is).
Here is the acceleration comparison with the Suzuki Burgman 400:
Acceleration Vectrix Suzuki Burgman 400
0-30mph 3.6 seconds 5.0 seconds
0-50mph 6.8 seconds 8.3 seconds
0-60mph 8.2 seconds 9.7 seconds
As for "showing you", that is something you will have to do for yourself.
Don't take my or anyone else's word for it. Dive it yourself. I believe
you live in California, right? The Vectrix bikes have been out there many
times at various shows, events, and even EAA chapter meetings for test
drives, including EAA chapter meetings in the SF Bay area (where they were
announced ahead of time on the EVDL). But I guess you must have missed
those. Anyway, I am supposed to be getting my bike in November of this
year. I live in South Florida. If you really want me to "show you", as you
say, you are welcome to fly down here for a weekend and stay at my place
after I receive my bike. You can get a cheap JetBlue flight from Oakland to
Ft. Lauderdale, where I will pick you up in one of my two RAV4-EVs, then
bring you back here and let you take my Vectrix bike for the entire weekend
and do whatever you want with it and go wherever you want with it. If you
don't like the bike, aren't impressed and underwhelmed by it, then feel free
to write a negative report on the EVDL to let everyone know exactly what you
think of it. You will be doing them all a great favor by sparing them the
trouble and expense of buying an inferior product, if that's what you think
it is. We in the Florida EAA are supposed to be hosting the 6th All-Chapter
EAA/EVer conference in January 2007 in conjunction with the 2nd annual
Battery Beach Burnout NEDRA competition at Moroso Motorsports Park in West
Palm Beach, about 45 miles from my house, which, by the way, I drive up to
and back in my RAV4-EV on a single charge (90 miles round-trip). That might
make a trip down here in January worthwhile for you. As I said, you are
welcome to stay at my place and take the bike for an extended weekend-long
test drive. I have hosted EVers here at my house all the time as
houseguests, including Bob Rice, Steve Clunn, Paul Liddle, and others. I
just hope Vectrix is able to deliver on their promise to get me a bike by
then. I am Vectrix's first US customer, number one on their US
pre-production order waiting list, which I signed up on their website all
the way back in May 2004.
Charles Whalen
Delray Beach, FL
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Vectrix
>
> 400-600cc
>> gas-powered maxi-scooters (all of which, by the way, are considerably
>> slower
>> than Vectrix in acceleration).
>
> I would be very suprised if the Vectrix would beat even a Honda Helix
> 250cc. That scooter would go 70+ mph get 68mpg and beat most cars up to
> about 30mph. The Vectrix might be quicker but show me. I suspect it
> isn't. LR......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
read here:
http://www.visforvoltage.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=32&t=3147&s=35a6d63e7bda4e3466063b3df6cc46f0
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:06 PM
Subject: RE: Brushless turnkey system available
> Does anyone have any experience with Kollmorgan motors? How would these be
for a mower deck? One
> motor per blade?
>
> --- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Many of the eBike motors are Brushless, as far as I know.
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ7242029430QQrdZ1
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can't you leave feedback that is it stolen information, and a link to
get it for free on your website?
--- Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hey All,
>
> Just an FYI.
>
> Be on the lookout for scammers who are selling bogus "How to build
> your
> own EV" publications on Ebay. These people are obviously trying to
> take
> advantage of the higher gas prices by selling OUR copyrighted
> intellectual material.
>
> An alert EVer has informed me that someone has lifted the "Build an
> EV"
> section off the EVA/DC website and is selling it for $4.99 on Ebay.
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/How-To-Build-An-Electric-
>
Car_W0QQitemZ9518340671QQcategoryZ47103QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZView
>
> Item
>
> He found this out when he suspected the same guy stole his stuff.
> He's
> going to send me a PDF file of it so I can see what was lifted.
>
> I guess the lesson that can be learned for this is to copyright
> your
> stuff and watermark your pictures or illustrations.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So how about the specs on some of the 600cc bikes?
In my experience most 600s are much quicker than 400s.
Also how about 0-100mph times?
While many of us don't really care because we don't ride that fast,
most sportbike riders are very interested in higher speeds.
I really think electric bikes are cool, fun and can be useful
transportation but when doing a comparison it pays to at least give a
nod to fairness.
I used to beat cars, stoplight to stoplight in Long Beach, CA. all the
time on my BICYCLE. A handy factoid but useless for evaluating
transportation. I didn't burn nearly the fuel, pay the taxes or
license fees and didn't have big monthly payments so I was very quick
for very little money, as long as speeds were limited to about 25 mph
or so.
michael
On 5/17/06, Charles Whalen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Lawrence,
You must not have read what I wrote, or at least you didn't do so very
carefully. Take a look at what I wrote; it's right here below as quoted in
your response to me. I spoke of the Vectrix bike's acceleration vis-a-vis
"comparable 400-600cc gas-powered maxi-scooters." That would be the Suzuki
Burgman 400, the Yamaha Majesty 400, and the Honda Silver Wing 450 (I think
it is).
Here is the acceleration comparison with the Suzuki Burgman 400:
Acceleration Vectrix Suzuki Burgman 400
0-30mph 3.6 seconds 5.0 seconds
0-50mph 6.8 seconds 8.3 seconds
0-60mph 8.2 seconds 9.7 seconds
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
production road EVs use in the most majority DC (sep-ex and serie motors)
and (imho) Hybrids use Permanent Magnet brushless motors.
"AC motor" are synchronous motors, a different animal
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:33 AM
Subject: RAV, Insight motors, was: Vectrix
> Ralph,
> all production EVs and Hybrids use AC motors.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 6:24 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Vectrix
>
>
> I'm new to the list and will plead ignorance ... are the motors in the
> RAV, and Insight AC or DC? I'm curious as to the direction industry is
> leaning with respect to which technology holds the most promise.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ralph.
> (da list newbie)
>
> David Roden wrote:
> > On 16 May 2006 at 2:13, Nick Austin wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I hope we have a Liion upgrade for the RAV4EV ready for when these
packs
> start
> >> getting tired and the warranties are out.
> >>
> >
> > I suspect that at least some of those now buying these RAVs at
> stratospheric
> > prices will abandon them if or when they find that they can no longer
take
>
> > them to the local dealer for service, but (like most of us!) have to fix
> the
> > problems themselves.
> >
> > OTOH, it's possible that someone will figure out how to reverse-engineer
> the
> > RAV's control software, just as some clever folks have doped out how to
> fool
> > the Prius into accepting a larger onboard battery. Something similar
> seems
> > to have happened with the USE conversions using long-unsupported Hughes
> > drive systems. Maybe such a person or group will form an enterprise to
> > continue supporting the RAVs, at least in the regions where they're most
> > concentrated, when Toyota leaves them twisting in the wind.
> >
> > I really hope that happens. If not - well, look at it this way, at
least
> > that will provide a nice field of reasonably-priced gliders for us EV
> > hobbyists to re-convert with open-source components.
> >
> > Keep your fingers crossed for these folks!
> >
> >
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > EV List Assistant Administrator
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> > or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> > To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Isn't this really just a techno-geek thrill. It seems like a lot of work to
get a Prius to perform almost as good as an Insight. If you were doing
these numbers with 4 people in the car then that would be different, but the
Insight is an off the shelf better solution, and as they love to say, "You
don't have to plug it in."
I guess maybe it is the vision of what it could be, more than what you have
been able to do with it so far that is exciting.
damon
From: Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: More Prius PHEV trip data!
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 01:06:42 -0700
Here's some more trip data.
Note that these are 'blind' non-automated test runs.
5-10:I did a low speed mostly ev-only run of 12.6 miles @ 89.9mpg,
began at 248v and ended with 216v, recharged 0.88kWh from the wall.
Also did 4 high speed mixed-mode runs to/from work the next 2 days.
5-11:First trip to work was 27.8 miles @ 62.2mpg, charged at work,
began at 248v and ended with 230v, recharged 1.16kWh from the wall.
5-11:Next trip was back home 28.2 miles @ 59.7mpg, charged at home,
began at 242v and ended with 218v, recharged 1.69kWh from the wall.
5-12:Checked the packs balance in the morning (+highest+..-lowest-):
12.47..12.48..12.44..12.47.+12.50+.12.46..12.42..12.45..12.40..12.40
......-12.35-.12.48.+12.50+.12.43..12.44..12.46..12.43..12.45..12.42
5-12:Next days trip to work was 27.8 miles @ 63.3mpg, charged at work,
began at 238v and ended with 157v, recharged 3.54kWh from the wall.
.oO( So this was a very bad trip, 1.37vpc or 8.26vpbat
.oO( and put it on charge in short order.
5-12:Last trip home was 28.2 miles @ 63.8mpg, charged at home,
began at 248v and ended with 224v, recharged 2.41kWh from the wall.
5-12:Checked the packs balance before charging (+highest+..-lowest-):
11.72..11.79..11.69..11.76..11.85..11.74..11.67..11.74..11.64..11.67
......-11.49-.11.83.+11.87+.11.74..11.73..11.77..11.72..11.77..11.74
5-15:Finally, yesterday after a 5 mile demo for a Seattle Times guy.
I put 1.14kWh in at work, and another 0.74kWh at home from the wall.
The resting voltage still ended a little shy at 245v.
I've sent my CAN-View in to Norm so he can wire and test the new relay
board since I had some trouble the first time I tried to add it. So
I'll be out of commission for a week or so till I get it back.
I suppose I could continue doing more 'blind' mixed-mode runs except
that Danika will be driving it during the week in normal HEV mode
since she has sold her old Ford Taurus. She probably won't be using
the PHEV modes until it's fully automated...
I finally have my first tank which includes electric fuel numbers!
423.0 miles, 6.987 gallons, 25040 miles on the odometer, $22.00 for
gas, 60.54 mpg, 9.68kWh of electricity, $0.63 worth of electrons!
http://www.eaa-phev.org/wiki/PriusBlue_Mileage
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
feeback is controlled by seller BUT you can ask to ebay to close the auction
and seller account proving it is frauding people !
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: EV Copyright Infringement running rampant
> Can't you leave feedback that is it stolen information, and a link to
> get it for free on your website?
>
> --- Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hey All,
> >
> > Just an FYI.
> >
> > Be on the lookout for scammers who are selling bogus "How to build
> > your
> > own EV" publications on Ebay. These people are obviously trying to
> > take
> > advantage of the higher gas prices by selling OUR copyrighted
> > intellectual material.
> >
> > An alert EVer has informed me that someone has lifted the "Build an
> > EV"
> > section off the EVA/DC website and is selling it for $4.99 on Ebay.
> >
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/How-To-Build-An-Electric-
> >
> Car_W0QQitemZ9518340671QQcategoryZ47103QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZView
> >
> > Item
> >
> > He found this out when he suspected the same guy stole his stuff.
> > He's
> > going to send me a PDF file of it so I can see what was lifted.
> >
> > I guess the lesson that can be learned for this is to copyright
> > your
> > stuff and watermark your pictures or illustrations.
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I do not want to speak for Otmar,
but I believe he has offered his opinion on this on
many occasions, what I recall was that it just does not
make sense, for the following reasons:
He has standardized on a certain size of controller and
everything is tailored to this size to optimize cost.
(even a Z2k is basically two Z1k combined into one)
So the only thing that would make it feasible at this moment
would be to de-populate a Z1k to, say, 600A max.
That means leaving out about half the final stage FETs and
diodes and that is about it, not much more cost reduction can
be done because as soon as you start trimming down cooling plate,
connection bars or anything else, you (Otmar) is facing a
re-design of the Zilla mechanics.
Can be done but the limited reduction of cost does not
justify the investment that is necessary.
Besides - there are plenty alternatives for those controllers, while
the Z1k and Z2k are ruling in their territory and Otmar can hardly
keep up building them, so it is not bringing much good to create
a lower-cost higher volume product - but maybe I am wrong and
Otmar is reconsidering tis market segment....
The business case will be the crucial issue.
For now, I think you should use the Zilla feature to limit the
current, so you get what you want - no smokin' tires.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Stefan Peters
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 9:10 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: AC vs. DC
Otmar wrote:
>
> I think he should have chosen the Z1K-LV. It's certainly closer to his
> unit, though not at all the same power. At 156 Volts and 1000 amps
> it's almost twice as powerful as his AC drive but only costs $1975.
> (Sorry, at the moment I don't make a smaller one) ...
Any musings on when (if ever) we will see a smaller Cafe Electric
controller?
Maybe with around 75kW (half the Z1K-LV) power output. For those of us
compact/subcompact drivers that would enjoy your feature set and
quality, but don't *ever* plan to smoke any tires...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The job of my car and truck is transportation, no more, no less.
What is the job of that page you listed? Can't be to draw people to
your web site as there are no links on it leading to your main site.
What is the job of your main site?
Certainly not to sell people equipment or to allow simple comparison
as much of the information is "inquire".
So how can I compare the cost of the fancy AC systems you tout so
loudly when you won't even list the price?
Your web site does not inspire confidence and would not make me put
you at the top of my list of suppliers of equipment or information.
michael
On 5/17/06, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
What is the job of your car, can you elaborate?
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello All,
I had a huge treat yesterday when the phone rang and it was my
good friend John Wayland calling from Snow Pass as he entered
Southern Idaho. He was going to be swinging by my place and
promised me a ride in White Zombie! I've been having a lot of
visits from out of town EVers lately, Bruce Meland was here a
few weeks ago, Mike Patterson is here with his Twike, so I told
John to just pull in behind the Twike. Of course the first order of
business was Food.
All 4 of us, Jim Husted, Tim Brehm, John Wayland, and I piled
into my tiny EV Karmann Ghia, if you can just picture that! I had
told John on the phone that my Ghia was about dead, with it's 10
year old Optima YTs. (I explained on a later call that what I meant
by "dead" was that it has a solid 15 mile range, and only has twice
the power as when it was gas powered) I had a blast driving the
car for 3 ampheads that appreciated the ride. It still has some decent
pep for such old batteries and we had zesty chinese food. My fortune
cookie even indicated that my luck may be about to improve! Just
getting a visit like this from someone like John and his gang actually
manufactures luck, by making the whole world seem brighter.
The main order of business was to go for a ride in the Zombie!
It's been a few years since I've seen the car, and I must say that it is
the most incredible example of rolling workmanship, fit, finish, and
design that I've ever seen. Tim and I took off, with John and Jim
following, as we made our way across the mighty Payette river, in
flood stage. As soon as we got across, Tim nailed it and I swear I
could feel my face peeling off! It was like those commercials for fast
stuff, where they show a guy with ripples moving rapidly from the
corners of his pulled open mouth, back to his earlobes. What
incredible acceleration! While John took some pictrures, Tim lit up
the tires from a standing stop and we went fishtailed down the road,
leaving heavy black marks and wafting tire smoke behind. Ahh, the
familiar smells of raw power entered the cabin. It felt like full acceleration,
but then the tires bit in hard and another huge push of power came online
shoving me even deeper into the seat!
I was impressed with the Hawker AeroBatteries, they are gorgious
orange packages of power that look great in the Zombie's battery tray.
In fact, the guys had been welding with a couple of them after suffering
a break on the trailer's fender during the trip. I got out the olde oxy/acy
welding equipment, and Jim did an expert job of making a repair before
they hit the road.
Now I'm all charged up again, in more ways than one. I even got to
have several gorgious green boxes in my living room for a while. There
was this huge and very powerful-looking box that said "Tylinski" on it.
Obviously George's ultra-powerful chunk of charging infrastructure.
We charged the Zombie back up very quickly using 100% hydro power
from a large dam about 4 miles upstream.
An awesome time, amazing car, and great friends. As we know, they
had delicious cookies with them as well, so now I'm a cookie monster
too! What a great time! I can't wait to read Wayland's posts about the trip.
PS Jim took a look at my Ghia's motor, and gave it an outstanding bill of
health!
...John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Higher speed than 50km/h (37mph) with a motorbike is very energy consuming,
100mph is way way way WAY WAY worst.
For few miles it's ok but if you want range and 100mph... you are going to
need a trailer for your batteries...or maybe a 156V/100Ah KOKAM pack (260lb)
on a big motorbike with a Z1K and 2 Perm motor...
EV biker dream mode OFF :^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Neverdosky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Vectrix
> So how about the specs on some of the 600cc bikes?
>
> In my experience most 600s are much quicker than 400s.
>
> Also how about 0-100mph times?
> While many of us don't really care because we don't ride that fast,
> most sportbike riders are very interested in higher speeds.
>
> I really think electric bikes are cool, fun and can be useful
> transportation but when doing a comparison it pays to at least give a
> nod to fairness.
>
> I used to beat cars, stoplight to stoplight in Long Beach, CA. all the
> time on my BICYCLE. A handy factoid but useless for evaluating
> transportation. I didn't burn nearly the fuel, pay the taxes or
> license fees and didn't have big monthly payments so I was very quick
> for very little money, as long as speeds were limited to about 25 mph
> or so.
>
> michael
>
> On 5/17/06, Charles Whalen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Lawrence,
> >
> > You must not have read what I wrote, or at least you didn't do so very
> > carefully. Take a look at what I wrote; it's right here below as quoted
in
> > your response to me. I spoke of the Vectrix bike's acceleration
vis-a-vis
> > "comparable 400-600cc gas-powered maxi-scooters." That would be the
Suzuki
> > Burgman 400, the Yamaha Majesty 400, and the Honda Silver Wing 450 (I
think
> > it is).
> >
> > Here is the acceleration comparison with the Suzuki Burgman 400:
> >
> > Acceleration Vectrix Suzuki Burgman 400
> > 0-30mph 3.6 seconds 5.0 seconds
> > 0-50mph 6.8 seconds 8.3 seconds
> > 0-60mph 8.2 seconds 9.7 seconds
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, in a couple of weeks I will be getting the batteries to make up my new
pack. They are special order so although I only need 18 in the car I got a
couple extra.
They are the Trojan TE35 6V floodeds. They are replacing Sonnenschein
DF6V-160s.
Are there any suggestions how to keep all of the batteries fairly balanced? I
mean is there some kind of suggested rotation scheme to swap out the 2 extras
I'll have to keep them ready to replace any bad ones that might appear?
Regards,
Chet
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Micheal, you are being way to critical and overreacting. Just because Victor
does not have a link on the QA page back to his main page, you are throwing
out all of his information? You assume he has no prices, but did you even
try to investigate? Maybe google "metric mind" or "ac ev", or look at the
URL and simply type in www.metricmind.com?
Take a look, he has prices and specs and how-tos and a conversion example -
it is a great site. FYI just so you don't assume anything bad, he may not
have prices for everything - and that simply is because of currency
conversions and availablilty of components - but most of it is there.
Look before you leap.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael Neverdosky
Sent: May 17, 2006 9:37 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: AC vs. DC
The job of my car and truck is transportation, no more, no less.
What is the job of that page you listed? Can't be to draw people to your web
site as there are no links on it leading to your main site.
What is the job of your main site?
Certainly not to sell people equipment or to allow simple comparison as much
of the information is "inquire".
So how can I compare the cost of the fancy AC systems you tout so loudly
when you won't even list the price?
Your web site does not inspire confidence and would not make me put you at
the top of my list of suppliers of equipment or information.
michael
On 5/17/06, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What is the job of your car, can you elaborate?
>
> Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
The limiters limit the max _voltage_ per battery, but the
warmer battery will still draw more current at that voltage,
so the effect is likely still that even with regs you will
have an increasingly unbalance unless you are actively
taking care of the thermal issues by either blowing air
around all batteries or by having a charger that takes care
of each string individually (yes, that costs an additional
2-pole contactor)
Indeed will two strings not share perfectly and often will
they be physically separate (like two sides of the car,
each side one string) so when one starts slightly warmer
than the other, one will draw more current than the other,
warm up a bit more and draw even more...
It is not a true thermal runaway in the sense that things
will explode, but you will see that one battery string may
be over-charged (at higher temps you must reduce voltage)
while the other string at the same voltage is still not
completely charged (did get less current than their share,
so in the time allotted they did not get enough Ah in).
This is why I have always questioned the paralleling of
strings without any active management (neither temp nor
current) and you may see an improvement of balance inside
each string, but you will not be able to solve the basic
problem of temp (and resulting SOC) differences between
strings unless you also take care of that by either
thermal or current management.
BTW - if you really want to _measure_ what is going on,
instead of just taking or discarding my _hunch_ for it,
then an interesting approach would be to install
*TWO* Emeters and give each string its own shunt, then
watch the two meters and verify if the strings receive the
same current during charging _and_ deliver the same power
during driving, or that you indeed see the temp difference
(or some slightly weaker battery in a string) cutting one
partially out of the loop and creating an imbalance.
You can imagine what the result is if you take off and
pull 220A, only to find that one string is limping at 50A
while the other string is suffering a 170A beating.
If you wire the Emeters to be on at all times (for the
duration of the test) then you may also see an effect of
one string getting hot during charge and cooling down
afterwards: with reducing temps the voltage rises, so it
slowly (very slowly) will start delivering some current
to the other string that stayed cooler during the charge
and therefore was not charged completely.
Just for the record:
I also charge my batteries to the "float" or "standby"
voltage level of 13.7V per battery, first a constant
current charge (max 10A) up to this voltage, then keep
the voltage constant for several hours while the current
falls and when it gets below 1A the batteries are
essentially full.
To verify this, once a month I take the batteries up after
they have been sitting at 13.7V (356V in my case) for hours
by applying a constant current of 2A up to 14.8V (385V) and
I always see them climb first slowly, then suddenly jump the
last 10 or 15 volts and start dropping the current, this
usually takes less than 1 hour so it will give me no more than
1Ah in actual charge over the safe "float" charge that I can
apply without any smartness, just a limited power supply and
a timer from midnight to 7 AM.
(Note: I have a single string of 26 12V AGM batteries)
When I measure the open voltage several hours after charging
it shows 13.2V per battery, which is much higher than you will
find in any of the battery handbooks, but under a light load
the battery will quickly drop to 12.9V
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 9:07 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Whoops. Left the charger on
> You didn't say what the state of charge of the batteries was. Also, I
> forget what your nominal pack voltage is, so I can't tell if that 367v
> was 13v or 15v per 12v battery.
The pack is 2 strings of 25 twelve volt AGM batteries for a baseline
voltage of 300. 367 is 14.7 volts per battery on average.
At start, the batteries were "fully charged" according to the E-meter.
Well, +1ah with a 98% CEF.
But that's still only 340 or so at 1.6a rate (the max I have throttled
the Magnecharger to for a 4 hour timeout)
Each battery has one of the regs, and I have noticed that with the 10
ohm .5w resistor that they will draw about .6a at 14.7 volts. So two
strings of them should be sucking down 1.2 amps leaving only .8a for the
batteries (in a perfect world, .4a per string)
> But... when you charge two lead-acid batteries in parallel to 15v,
> here's what will happen.
>
> - the batteries are being overcharged
> - all the energy going in is converted to heat and gas
> - with your sealed batteries, the gas will pressurize the case,
> and eventually cause it to vent
> - the heat warms up the batteries
> - the hotter battery draws more current, producing more heat
> - if you let this process continue, you wind up with one cool battery
> carrying essentially zero amps and not venting; and one hot battery
> carrying all the current and vigorously venting its life away!
How about if you charge two strings of batteries? Would one string get
hotter, one battery in one string get hotter? Would the regs change the
dynamics of things by keeping those hotter batteries from drawing more
current?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Philippe,
I was not sure, so I went back to the specs - the Hughes motor
in my US Electricar truck is specified - and I quote:
"The 50 kW Vector Motor shall be a three-phase, four-pole,
AC squirrel cage rotor, induction motor."
>From MetricMind's website, referencing his motors:
"All featured motors are liquid cooled AC induction machines..."
Then I checked the Prius website:
"Permanent magnet AC synchronous motor"
http://www.toyota.com/prius/specs.html
NOTE that PM brushless motors *are* synchronous AC motors!
Other types of AC motors that rely on the Eddy current in the
rotor are asynchronous, so your statement is not true.
In a PM motor the field generated by the windings needs to stay
ahead of the magnets to give traction, so a varying frequency
AC voltage must be applied (actually *phase* locked to the motor)
and the phase will determine if power is consumed or generated.
(Gently pushing the accelerator while a Prius is rolling in the
opposite direction will _increase_ regeneration.)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Philippe Borges
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 11:18 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: RAV, Insight motors, was: Vectrix
production road EVs use in the most majority DC (sep-ex and serie motors)
and (imho) Hybrids use Permanent Magnet brushless motors.
"AC motor" are synchronous motors, a different animal
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:33 AM
Subject: RAV, Insight motors, was: Vectrix
> Ralph,
> all production EVs and Hybrids use AC motors.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 6:24 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Vectrix
>
>
> I'm new to the list and will plead ignorance ... are the motors in the
> RAV, and Insight AC or DC? I'm curious as to the direction industry is
> leaning with respect to which technology holds the most promise.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ralph.
> (da list newbie)
>
> David Roden wrote:
> > On 16 May 2006 at 2:13, Nick Austin wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I hope we have a Liion upgrade for the RAV4EV ready for when these
packs
> start
> >> getting tired and the warranties are out.
> >>
> >
> > I suspect that at least some of those now buying these RAVs at
> stratospheric
> > prices will abandon them if or when they find that they can no longer
take
>
> > them to the local dealer for service, but (like most of us!) have to fix
> the
> > problems themselves.
> >
> > OTOH, it's possible that someone will figure out how to reverse-engineer
> the
> > RAV's control software, just as some clever folks have doped out how to
> fool
> > the Prius into accepting a larger onboard battery. Something similar
> seems
> > to have happened with the USE conversions using long-unsupported Hughes
> > drive systems. Maybe such a person or group will form an enterprise to
> > continue supporting the RAVs, at least in the regions where they're most
> > concentrated, when Toyota leaves them twisting in the wind.
> >
> > I really hope that happens. If not - well, look at it this way, at
least
> > that will provide a nice field of reasonably-priced gliders for us EV
> > hobbyists to re-convert with open-source components.
> >
> > Keep your fingers crossed for these folks!
> >
> >
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > EV List Assistant Administrator
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> > or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> > To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I DID look!
I looked at his main page and looked at his prices page where MOST of
the AC systems were priced as "INQUIRE".
He is being critical of DC systems and suggesting to compare AC and DC
systems fairly.
Well HOW CAN I COMPARE FAIRLY WHEN HE DOESN'T PUBLISH HIS PRICES?
He says, compare systems that are similar but are there any? It seems
to me that the AC systems have galoping featuritis. That is everything
but the kitchen sink is there if you want it or not.
I am just saying that his site does not inspire confidence in my mind
that he is fairly and accurately presenting the information. If his
information is suspect that is a strike against him as a possible
vendor.
I am not saying that I would never buy from him, but again he would
not be at the top of my list.
I am sorry but a site that is hard to navigate is NOT a great site.
That QA page is basically hidden and the rest of the site is hidden
from it. WHY?
Is it an embarasment?
If so, why even have it at all?
Why send people to a page on your site that doesn't give them and EASY
way to get to your main page.
This is really basic stuff.
I don't think that I have been unfair but I am pointing out things
that he might want to improve if he wants his web site to produce
better.
On the web, your competition is only a click away, making them search
for your main page even after they are on your site is really dumb.
Once I go back to the search engine I am unlikely to go back to a site
like that unless there is no other choice.
Seriously, for someone who is saying that we should do a fair
comparison to hide the information to do so is suspect.
michael
On 5/17/06, Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Micheal, you are being way to critical and overreacting. Just because Victor
does not have a link on the QA page back to his main page, you are throwing
out all of his information? You assume he has no prices, but did you even
try to investigate? Maybe google "metric mind" or "ac ev", or look at the
URL and simply type in www.metricmind.com?
Take a look, he has prices and specs and how-tos and a conversion example -
it is a great site. FYI just so you don't assume anything bad, he may not
have prices for everything - and that simply is because of currency
conversions and availablilty of components - but most of it is there.
Look before you leap.
Don
--- End Message ---
