EV Digest 5500
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Specs for 3 wheel xebra for sale in china
by "mike young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Three-wheel Go-cart
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Three-wheel Go-cart
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Three-wheel Go-cart
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Three-wheel Go-cart
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Walk Behind professional mowers?
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Regen
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Other Hybrids Honda Insight
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV Copyright Infringement running rampant
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Kalifornia .... registering conversions
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Regen
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Front-Wheel or Rear-Wheel Drive
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: EV / Hybrid Question
by "george.underwood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) cost of conversion WAS: Donor Car Recommendations for EV Conversion
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Regen
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) 4 thousand miles, 3 Amp heads, 2 EV's, 1 truck, and how I survived!
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV Copyright Infringement running rampant
by "Ted C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV safety
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Regen
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) CA DMV
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) ETTA
by "David Sharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: cost of conversion WAS: Donor Car Recommendations for EV Conversion
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I saw what looks like the 3 wheel Zap Xebra on a wholesalers website from
China. Its at www.chinapuxinbiz.com and then click on electric vehicles.
Mike Young -Solectria Force Lover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, Roger. I didn't know Cloud was moving to FWD. With 2 in back, and
the batts moved back there, most of the weight is stable. In most races I
saw, these 1F2R models slowed the pack, with everyone drafting behind. It
seemed they didn't make the corners quite as quick as I would have expected.
I thought w/ the 2F design, it meant batts (and other weight possible) are
moved forward. I'm not sure which is better... but batts up front puts them
under the driver's legs, from what I saw... and they seemed to have the
ability to corner better on the sharp courses.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:50 PM
Subject: RE: Three-wheel Go-cart
> Dave Cloud has quite successfully used the 1 front/2 rear setup on his
> electrathon cars for years. He is doing a front wheel drive, front
> wheel steering setup. This has a couple of advantages over the
> altneratives, since with one wheel driven you don't have the
> weight/complexity of a differential means or the losses associated with
> allowing one wheel to scrub, and with one wheel steered you don't have
> the issues and losses associated with Ackerman steering geometry. I had
> the chance to drive one of his cars a couple years ago and found it to
> be quite stable, though in general you are right that the single front
> wheel layout will have a greater tendency to fall over under hard
> braking while turning.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 18 May 2006 16:15:45 -0700, "Roger Stockton"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Neon John wrote:
>
>> Peter is correct, as a brief look at any web site selling kart parts
>> will show. Suggest Northern tool as a good place to look. I'm using
>> one of their differential axles (they sell a name brand but I can't
>> recall the name at hte moment), cut down to an appropriate length for
>> a 3 wheel scooter that I'm working on at the moment.
>
>Nope. Check a kart parts supplier, such as
><http://www.gokartsupply.com/partcat.htm>. Most karts use a solid rear
>axle with a full-length keyway that allows one to positively attach the
>hubs that the rear wheels mount to, as well as the single driven
>sprocket and single brake disc that attach to this solid axle.
Sometimes I just gotta shake my head at you, Roger. One little look
would save you from your normal silly self.
Here's Northern's diff axle:
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_35768_35768
This is the axle we (I'm a minority partner in the local track) run in
the mini-NASCAR karts. You know, a kart that actually has to go
around a fairly sharp turn. Yeah, I ran a solid axle on my enduro
kart back in the late 60s but that was a track kart (I'd not be
surprised to learn that modern track karts still run solid axles but I
don't presume to know and lack the interest to look it up) and
certainly not something to be used for transportation or recreation -
unless crabbing wheels are your cup o tea.
Come to think of it, I don't think I can recall WHEN I saw a solid
axle on a non-track kart. Recreational karts either drive one wheel
or use a diff. On pavement, one can rarely tell the difference.
For everyone except roger.... That Northern axle is a pretty nice
little unit. It withstands commercial (read: continuous duty on the
weekends and lots o' duty on weekdays) service behind 8 HP Honda
engines at our mini-NASCAR track. My 3 wheeled scooter will be driven
by an ETEK behind a 400 amp, 48 volt AXE. It should hold up just
fine.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Perry wrote:
> Thanks, Roger. I didn't know Cloud was moving to FWD.
Sorry; perhaps I wasn't clear: Dave has been running a single driven
front wheel design on all his cars for at least 10 years now.
> In most races I saw, these 1F2R models slowed the pack,
> with everyone drafting behind. It seemed they didn't make
> the corners quite as quick as I would have expected.
I think this depends greatly on the attnation the vehicle designer paid
to the details of weight distribution, CG height, etc.
Dave's FWD vehicles are exactly the opposite to what you describe;
usually his cars are leading the pack, and they tend to corner faster
and with greater stability than the single driven rear wheel designs.
It might be largely due to the superior weight distribution, but it
seems to also have to do with the FWD design "pulling" the car thorugh
the corner instead of pushing it.
Also, electrathons tend to be on the flimsy side due to the emphasis on
light weight, which results in most of the 1R2F cars being unable to
keep proper steering geometry as the vehicle flexes while navigating a
tight (and possibly uneven) corner at speed. The result is that while
Dave's 1F2R design pulls cleanly around the corner, the 2F1R cars' dart
around and/or scrub off momentum as the frame and steering linkage
flexing result in the front wheels pointing in the wrong directions.
> I thought w/ the 2F design, it meant batts (and other weight
> possible) are moved forward.
The 1R2F Aerocoupe design has the battery box just in front of the
single rear wheel, however, even with it in front under the driver's
legs the vehicle would have a strong rearward weight bias due to the
recumbant driver still representing the greatest component of the
vehicle weight (in Electrathon racing the driver is ballasted to 180lbs,
so there is no benefit to using a smaller driver, and the batteries are
limited to just 64lbs.
Moving them forward certainly helps, but it isn't enough to get most of
the weight over the front wheels in a 1R2F layout.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
> Sometimes I just gotta shake my head at you, Roger.
Likewise. Clearly, I am talking about track karts, not recreational
karts you or anyone else might build with parts from Northern Tool. I
am not refuting the type of parts Northern Tool might offer, nor their
suitability for any particular application.
The comment I was disputing was that *most* karts drive a single rear
wheel. If you want to dig up stats demonstrating that recreational
non-track karts built with parts from the like of Northern Tool
outnumber the commercial and recreational track karts, I'd be happy to
concede to being wrong.
However, at the moment it appears that if one searches up kart
drivetrain parts or complete chassis from just about any online
supplier, it is track kart solid rear axle configurations that one
finds, which tends to support my assertion that most karts do tend to
use this configuration. This is further supported by the fact that
every indoor or outdoor rental karting facility I've frequented has
exclusively run solid rear axle karts.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark , I picked up one of these with the same idea , Dose it steers by
taking presser off one of the drive belts that goes to the wheel ? I think
it would work fine , steve clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hastings" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 7:36 PM
Subject: Walk Behind professional mowers?
I have been on the lookout for a new donor and found someone selling a 36"
toro walk behind.
They seem to use lower horsepower motors so I'm thinking they are more
efficient since they don't have to carry a person around. Does this sound
reasonable or does anyone have any direct experience with these mowers? I
can get it pretty cheap since it has an oil leak on the engine.
It has a 12hp motor and my sears had a 15.5 so I'm hoping maybe I can use
the same setup.
Thanks.
Mark Hastings
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think Nimh likes that scenario on the regen and there are packs and
controllers avail :-) why not a lithium main pack and a prius hybrid pack.
On the other hand it looks like Kokam is attacking this front with some
higher power density lithium poly
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can hardly wait. I think the IMA motors can be stacked into a "4
rotor" motor :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Ted and everyone for the great advice.
It looks like I won this go round. The item has been removed from Ebay.
Earlier this evening I sent the offender a message kindly asking him to
remove my "Build an EV" plans from his auction. I also sent Ebay a
copyright infringement notice that I downloaded from the Ebay site and
faxed it in saying the item he was selling was ripped off from my
website without my knowledge, consent or permission.
I asked him to remove my plans from another CD he is selling that has
17 other plans on it. Probably ripped off from other people's websites
as well.
Chip Gribben
EVA/DC Webmaster
http://www.evadc.org
From: "Ted C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu May 18, 2006 8:58:02 PM US/Eastern
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: EV Copyright Infringement running rampant
You have the copyright. Your brother holding the hub/flywheel can prove
it. I would report him to Ebay and send him the cease and decease
"smack down" letter. It may not be written by a lawyer. But written
well enough it could give judge Judy a field day on him. He is probably
the same guy who takes your idea and goes around the office saying
"Look at the great idea I came up with."
I do have to agree with the statement made that ever though is a crappy
thing to do. It is promoting EVs and we sure could use more of that. I
would say maybe trying to work out a deal where you get a cut of the
BIG money. I just don't think he is going to be retiring off this and
that would be a waste of time. Plus I just won't trust the guy anyway.
I found these two example letters.
( http://www.webmastertechniques.com/Insight/cease.html )
or this ( http://www.rightsforartists.com/examcease.html )
What ever you do. Add that copyright to your page as soon as possible.
I don't know if it is possible to date it back to when you made it. I
would and why not? I would think you could since you are the creator of
the work and don't need a copyright notice to have the copyright. Maybe
come up with some terms for the copyright like you can share it as long
as you don't charge money for it kind of thing.
Ted
Olympia, WA
N47 02.743 W122 53.772
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I never had a problem getting the registration
changed, but the HOV legislation didn't exist until
after I moved out-of-state.
peace,
--- Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> After being shuttled from agency to agency and back
> I
> have found out that the state has made an agreement
> with the auto makers, that conversions cannot
> qualify
> for any Clean Air perks. Such as HOV lanes. Has
> anyone
> had any luck with this? Let me know what if any luck
> people have had in CA with this stuff. I'm trying
> to
> get the state to certify us a converters so people
> can
> save a trip to the referee station. It's also
> interesting trying to get people in these state
> agencies to grasp what we are doing. Sheesh!
>
>
> Gadget
>
> visit my websites at www.reverendgadget.com,
> gadgetsworld.org, leftcoastconversions.com
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:00 PM 18/05/06 -0500, Michaela wrote:
Just thinking again (oh my god .. ;)
Wouldn't it be possible to have a second pair of brushes mounted to a
'normal' motor (since regen capable sepex and other dc motors are not easy
to get) and use them for regen?
Sorry no. Lee Hart did a good discussion on this recently - essentially
that the brushes are always shorting two bars of the commutator, they are
set up to ahort two bars that are *at the same voltage* (this is what
timing is about). If they are anywhere else, the brushes are shorting bars
at different voltages and would just burn away. In addition you need to
drive the field hard enough to make the motor generate - not simple on a
standard series motor.
Or maybe a small(er) sized generator
(maybe half the size and with the same diameter, pre-drilled and ready to
slide on the second shaft) that would fit and would be easily mounted to
an, say, advanced dc motor?
That has merit - along the lines of what Rev. Gadget has done with his
Triumph conversion (in progress I think).
The hard part I see with this is alignment and mounting to the back of the
ADC. It may be better to put an electric clutch on the back of the ADC, and
turn on and off a belt-drive to either a honkin' great alternator or a
3-phase AC generator modified to match the pack voltage, mounted along side
the ADC.
But a lot of these options start to add up unless you are good at
scrounging and DIY, if you were to buy it all new at the same time as the
rest of the EV components, and paying someone to mount them, you may as
well get a surplus AC system from Metric Mind.
Hope this helps
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 05:44 PM 18/05/06 -0500, Ryan wrote:
I have wondered about something similar, mounting the motor(s) to the
frame of a small truck under the bed.
I see two potential problems. I don't know enough yet to determine how
significant they are. 1. This would seem to increase the distance
between the controller and the motor(s) unless done carefully and 2.
Putting the motor(s) closer to the rear axle would increase the angle that
the driveline moves as the suspension compresses and extends.
G'day Ryan
Controller - no problems, except radiating electrical interference more.
Depending on the vehicle and driveline, you may not have to change the
drveline geometry. Some vehicles have a 2-part tailshaft, where you have a
part that is fixed to the chassis followed by the moving part. As long as
you stayed forward of that point you would be fine. Also some gearboxes
have a long "snout" out to the tailshaft, again, useable space.
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I suppose you could actually weld a "tub" in the body over the rear axle for
axle travel and motor clearance instead of raising the back end up. Serious
body modifications as it would have to be stronger than before to carry the
extra weight. Just installing attachment points for leaf springs could get
complex as this is a unibody construction like most modern vehicles. Also,
the ICE engine comes out on a carrier frame with the tranny and front
suspension/wheels attached. You would have to replace the carrier and
suspension without the engine. Not sure how feasible this is.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Roekle
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 3:46 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: EV / Hybrid Question
Thanks for you response.
I figured that with everything it would weigh in at about 5200 lbs, vs the
current weight of 3800 lbs.
I am really wanting to do an EV, but I still want my "creature comforts" --
A/C, P/S, P/B, etc. I live in So. Cal and it gets too hot in the summertime
to drive around without A/C.
I thought the Windstar would be a reasonable choice since it has lots of
room in the middle and rear of the vehicle for batteries.
You're right, I would have to raise it up some, but I'm not too sure how
much. Heavy duty leaf springs in the rear could replace the coil springs.
Also I can run the electric motor just on the rear-end/differential with
some type of clutch to disengage the motor when using the ICE.
Just thinking about some way to make something work.
Dave Roekle
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of george.underwood
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 8:38 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: EV / Hybrid Question
You would have to raise the vehicle several inches to get clearance and
spring travel. Might look funny and not handle well on curves due to raising
center of gravity. Also, dragging around that engine and all the accessory
weight (along with a tank of gas) would require even more batteries = vry
heavy weight. Doesn't sound practical to me.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Roekle
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 11:39 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: EV / Hybrid Question
I have a 1995 Ford Windstar with a 3.8 litre V-6 engine. Since this is a FWD
vehicle I am thinking about replacing the rear axle assembly with a complete
rear-end from a Ford truck or other passenger car and connecting an electric
drive motor with controller to this rear-end via a drive shaft. I am
thinking that driving around town I can utilize the electric rear drive
motor and leave the gasoline engine running in neutral, in the idle mode for
P/S, P/B, A/C, Alternator, etc. and use the electric motor for the drive
motor. If I want to go on the freeway, I would switch off the electric motor
and use the gasoline motor. Do you think something like this is feasible?
What would you recommend?
Thanks,
Dave Roekle
951-278-2370
951-278-2886 Fax
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting analysis and I see where the money goes, I personally spent
over 8K on my conversion so far. Kinda avoid adding it all up. :-)
25 excide orbitals @ $98 2450
Zilla 1KHV 2500
PFC20b 1500
regs 25*$45(they came with fuses)
warp 9 when they were 1300 and shipping was 150
EV250a from ebay
I kinda don't count the battery price as part of the conversion since it
is a consumable, i consider it as a 4 year prorated fuel cost.
Then I got lucky
330V-13.8V , 50A dc-dc for $50 from ebay
I worked in a machine shop so for $200-$300 aluminum, and a broken motor
shaft(4140), I was able to make my own adapter,taperlock to fit a tilton
3 plate I also got for <200 + new disks at $160.
I know I spent another $1000 buying cable, connectors,crimper, andkeyway
broach,angle iron,etc.
I was glad I was able to buy it as needed during the conversion and my
decision was made easier from the fact that I had two cars over 130K
miles, BOTH on their second motor and one a second tranny. (Right after
that an off duty cop wasn't paying attention and drove into my car while
parked in front of my house, ironic). I went down to the honda and the
toyota dealer and realized that even if I put 8K down, I would still
have a mothly payment greater than a battery for at least 4 years,
with Gas and financeing I figured I could buy 2 batteries a month and
still stay ahead. The conversion took the place of a purchase.
I often think about how we can make the conversion process more
economical. It is the economy of scale thing
Just brainstorming.(or dreaming)
An Idea for the EVlistCompany
First we share the info
Then we standardize on some design points
Then we each specialize
Otmar is able to bring us these controllers because enough people buy
them. If there were 15 or 20 different controller manufactures within
our community, no-one could make enough money to stay in buisness. But
we also have other controllers each in their special niche, to choose
from. This is a example of how the other areas can be optimized.
I would like to buy a CNC and turn out adapters. I have all the info for
the nissan, but that is not a great donor vehicle, but the taperlock and
motor bell design would be the same on all my kits,(so far, the kit
would be $600 to make using outsourced CNC shop, leaving not much room).
4 pieces plate,bell,adapter, and taperlock, this makes the cnc worth
buying. I also have over 25 years in makeing molds and dies and would
like to leverage that for plastic and diecast parts we need.
Just think if all the EV250's and albright contactors were sourced by
one person and distributed to the individual ev conversion buisnesses,
perhaps we could all get a better price by becoming our own distributer.
It is just difficult to jump into the fray. Gotta have enough for the
cnc and a place with 3 phase,
I think there are 4 catagories to work on.
DC-RWD, keep the tranny
DC-RWD, Duel motor, no tranny, Maybe this becomes the ticket for a
optimum cost conversion. Once contactors are reasonable, this could
reduce the need for adapters to zero, just get a new driveline.
DC-FWD, keep the tranny, Not much duel motor FWD????
AC-FWD
In the DC-RWD,keep tranny catagory(Pickups,z cars,etc) , I would like to
propose this set of standards
An 8-9 motor bell ( http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00057.jpg ) to provide
an offset to compensate for
the adapter. (unless we get the motor shafts changed instead)
A taperlock adapter that memics the 2 part seal Small Block Chevy pattern
( http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00061.jpg ,
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00059.jpg )
Now we use a 7" 2 plate racing clutch( i used 3plate 5-1/4 and that
was to tall) Wether they are made by tilton or quartermaster or ...,
they all bolt up the same, The chevy pattern enables a large assortment
of flywheels too. The racing people like tilton or quartermaster will
put any size spline you ask in there(that fits) and have an application
page.
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00071.jpg , this is SBC button flywheel,
nissan spline.
I would have bells, adapters and adapter plates
(http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00037.jpg ) with the 12"mounting hole in
stock, a person orders and I set the 12" hole over a register on the cnc
and it puts in all the tranny mounting holes and mills the outside
profile in < 30 min - 1 hr. , shipped same day.
I am thinking(fantasizing) of starting with a Haas vf-1, a
bridgeport/grinder/EDM/welder and Injection molding machine to follow.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What's the status of the "Crazy Regen Idea" that was discussed last month,
about replacing the DC motor's fan with slip rings? Is Jim Husted working
on that, or has the idea languished?
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James Massey
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:31 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Regen
At 07:00 PM 18/05/06 -0500, Michaela wrote:
>Just thinking again (oh my god .. ;)
>
>Wouldn't it be possible to have a second pair of brushes mounted to a
>'normal' motor (since regen capable sepex and other dc motors are not easy
>to get) and use them for regen?
Sorry no. Lee Hart did a good discussion on this recently - essentially
that the brushes are always shorting two bars of the commutator, they are
set up to ahort two bars that are *at the same voltage* (this is what
timing is about). If they are anywhere else, the brushes are shorting bars
at different voltages and would just burn away. In addition you need to
drive the field hard enough to make the motor generate - not simple on a
standard series motor.
>Or maybe a small(er) sized generator
>(maybe half the size and with the same diameter, pre-drilled and ready to
>slide on the second shaft) that would fit and would be easily mounted to
>an, say, advanced dc motor?
That has merit - along the lines of what Rev. Gadget has done with his
Triumph conversion (in progress I think).
The hard part I see with this is alignment and mounting to the back of the
ADC. It may be better to put an electric clutch on the back of the ADC, and
turn on and off a belt-drive to either a honkin' great alternator or a
3-phase AC generator modified to match the pack voltage, mounted along side
the ADC.
But a lot of these options start to add up unless you are good at
scrounging and DIY, if you were to buy it all new at the same time as the
rest of the EV components, and paying someone to mount them, you may as
well get a surplus AC system from Metric Mind.
Hope this helps
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey All
I'm finding this a tough story to begin writting as it feels as if it should
start with something like
"Once opon a time". A begining that is worthy of the story that follows. I
hope I do this story justice
and will try to tell it to you all, like I will tell it to my grandchildred.
Day 1 Tuesday Night
John and Tim arrived somewhere around Midnightish and we re-packed everything
into my pick-up.
I'm an early to bed, early to rise kinda guy so right off the bat I'm
screwed. Wayland wanted a 4:00AM
wake up-call and my clock said 1:00AM when I set the alarm. The alarm rang
three minutes later and I called Wayland and hit the shower. We were off at
5:07 which ain't bad for Wayland! I started off driving and we headed out like
Electric Tigers hungry ready for the hunt. We shared mannly as we drove stories
throughthe desert toward Idaho.
We decided to stop and eat and found a fast food place and went in. Tim had
just sat at a table behind a bakers dozen high school boys and one girl and
who's group took up alot of resteraunt area. Being I had just sat next to Tim
and John waaay to long I opted for a seperate table accross from Tim.
I had just sat down when the girl asks me what kind of car the Zombie was.
Now I'm not a sicko but
she was cute and bubbly. I actually turned around to make sure she was
talking to me! Being a 44 year
old white male makes me a huge candidate for a good macing followed by
several hours explaning I was
only asking for directions, kind of thing, and is what I'm used to, lmao!!
I quickly answered back, why it's EElectric and it's pretty fast to. The boys
heard "fast" and were now looking and interested. Wayland arrived about this
time and as usual stole the show like the greddy bastard he is 8^ P
This gal knew about 60 foot and 1/8th mile times and quite proudly stated to
John that she was also a
drag racer down at the local track. At this point she starts digging in her
purse, and John tells her if she
pulled out time slips he would bow to her, which they both did. Later John
told me the carpet on the floor felt kinda funky, I laughed my butt off telling
him it was a tile floor, Eeww. The kids tried to get the teachers attention
being he was accross the dinning area but he shrugged with no interest. After
lunch the kids followed us out to the car and we procceeded to smoke their
minds with videos to prove we were telling the truth. The teacher came out
shaking his head as to why the kids were all excited about some little rat car!
That is untill he looked into the engine bay at which he stated why I guess
that is something to get excited about! After the welding class departed we
were approached by another two guys and easily spent an hour and a half
spreading the EV gosple. We left feeling like God's green solders energized by
the meal and the reaction from the crowd.
Little did I know but we had entered into what John Bryan later informed us
as "Feller" country. Luckily for us we had many miles to Cheyenne Wy. and we
sped through hidden by darkness. Idaho became another state and it became
another like some twisted joke that never ends. I can tell you that MapQuests
time lines do not include towing WZ, lmao!! Although tired we were in good
spirits as we arrived at our chosen destination and bedded down for the night
very late. Waking to what sounded like Bob Rice giving us a personel wake up
train horn blast I woke up yelling what the Fu&%K! John through angry blood
shot eyes informed me that it was just the train that had railing back and
forth all night long doing horn testing, lmao!! I wanted to check on the truck
but John informed me he wanted to rest his eyes a few minutes more. Walking out
of the room I discovered that the tracks were not only really close but were
also built higher than the hotel roof for that real nice
clearity. I hadn't even made the stairs when another horn blasted (I'm so glad
I wasn't in the room with Wayland) Well what do you know there's two seperate
tracks here, one on both sides, lmao.
Day two
We had needed to make Cheyenne as John had family there and they extended a
breakfast invite. Anyonewho's met John knows his family can cook, so I was all
over this. After a great meal with awesome folks we headed to Nina's (hope I
spelled it right) cookie shop where she loaded us down with a case of cookies
8^ ) Heading out it was more EV sharing every time we stopped but was a
quieter day than the previous day. We made Iowa City late that night and bedded
down for some much needed sleep. What felt like twenty minutes later we were
awoken to some morron rev'ing his beater truck somewhere around 6 AM. I went to
check the truck again and noticed that the hotel was a big "C" with a tiny
primo parking lot inbetween for little quiet econo cars. I didn't know it at
the time but I just had my first incounter with a "Feller" Re-entering the
motel room John ask's me if I said anything to the idiot!, where I informed
John that I hadn't!, where he called me a spinless Jelly Fish.
I now know through JB's stories what a mistake that would have been, lmao 8^ )
Day Three
With only like 10 hours of sleep in three days we departed Iowa City and had
a short trip into Joliet.
We arrived about the time we had predicted but much more exhausted than we
figuered. Others had
arrived before us and our energy returned as we met the group standing in the
parking lot awaiting our arrival. The greetings didn't last very long and
without so much as a breather we were stuffed into vehicles and off to the
Warfield tour. I was looking forward to seeing a big shop again being it's been
a while since I left them and moved to Oregon. Jerry had had a death in the
family and was unable to be there which was a bummer to hear. George Hamstra
arrived and Wayland and he shared some stories of past times while on a side
tour. I actually spent most the tour meandering around and sharing with the
guys stuff like what stall marks and things looked like. After a time Todd one
of the tour guys came up to me and stated it seemed I knew a bit about this
stuff. I told him that it's what I do, 8^ ) which he didn't get 8^ (. Having
unsuccessfully communicated that I was a Beech Boy (as the Warp guys call us) I
asked him if he had heard of the Siamese8? He stated of
course! I said "I built it". He stated "Oh". He asked if I was a machinist by
trade? I stated no, I ran the Beech, Ca. shop and had worked at Warfield in Ca.
for 18 months. He stated, "oh"!, Lmao!! I remember thinking that he had a look
that he had just discovered a spy in his shop, hehehe. We got to talk a bit
more before the party departed and I thanked him for being a gracious host and
allowing me a real treat. Just the stuff lieing outside of Warfield made me
drool over the creations I could bestow opon them 8^ ) As I left Chuck of
Warfield approached me and asked me if I was a Beech Boy where I stated I was.
Seems these boys have been talking about this old Ore E Gone motor Hick. It
just struck me but I might in fact be a "Feller" LMAO!!!
I'm gonna wrap this one up as I now have some ammunition supplied by Matts
post. I just had to post the pre-game warm up rather than to just jump to the
EVent. We talked to at least 50 people in at least four states about EV's on
the way there. I couldn't help but feel that we just might actually be helping
to change the world.
This isn't nothin folks, look for part 2
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.
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Your welcome. These kinds of issues just drive me nuts! I'm glad it was
solved in a straight forward and peaceful manor.
Faithfully in your service,
Ted
Olympia, WA
N47 02.743 W122 53.772
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: EV Copyright Infringement running rampant
Thanks Ted and everyone for the great advice.
It looks like I won this go round. The item has been removed from Ebay.
Earlier this evening I sent the offender a message kindly asking him to
remove my "Build an EV" plans from his auction. I also sent Ebay a
copyright infringement notice that I downloaded from the Ebay site and
faxed it in saying the item he was selling was ripped off from my website
without my knowledge, consent or permission.
I asked him to remove my plans from another CD he is selling that has 17
other plans on it. Probably ripped off from other people's websites as
well.
Chip Gribben
EVA/DC Webmaster
http://www.evadc.org
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As it happens, I was talking about this today at work. I ended up
recanting an episode I will never forget. ( from when I was yueng and
stupid, now I am a lot older...)
I was just doing brakes on 1 front wheel and was using one of those
bottle jacks on the street in front of my house. I was sitting on the
ground with legs on either side of wheel, figuring this was a truck
anyway and even if the jack failed I would be OK. Well I was lucky.
I was fighting and tugging on a stuck part and the little bottle jack
had impressed into the old blacktop, it came flying out and down came
the truck. I moved, but not before the backing plate came to rest on the
leg of my jeans.
Try as I might, I couldn't reach the jack, it really flew. Eventually I
had to just give up, wriggle out of my pants and run into the house in
my underware. There must of been 25 kids in the b-day party accross the
street front yard, luckly, none noticed the redfaced man without any
pants running into the house.
I have found that a 4000Lb EV is difficult to jack up and put on jack
stands on even a slightly sloped driveway. the emergancy brake is only
on the rear wheels and it likes to roll back on the floor jack. (Why
isnt there a wheel lock on a floor jack, why not an emergancy brake on
front right/rear left wheel.) I cringe everytime I have to do it.
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A second set of brushes (in a slightly different position) would short out
armature windings.
Motor controllers have been made to provide regen for series DC motors, such
as the Curtis1221R, and they work quite well for lower voltage systems, such
as 84 - 120V. They just were not sold much/ hardly available in North
America.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: Regen
Just thinking again (oh my god .. ;)
Wouldn't it be possible to have a second pair of brushes mounted to a
'normal' motor (since regen capable sepex and other dc motors are not easy
to get) and use them for regen? Or maybe a small(er) sized generator
(maybe half the size and with the same diameter, pre-drilled and ready to
slide on the second shaft) that would fit and would be easily mounted to
an, say, advanced dc motor?
I know it might not be worth the trouble, but I too would like to have
some kind of support for my brakes ;)
Michaela
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I am almost done with this. They had given me the same pamplet, when I
called the air resources board I found a guy on the other end of the
line that had an EV rabbit once, he was very nice supportive and helpful.
I am in Fresno county, don't know if that makes a difference, but I went
to referee and got the engine code changed to G, they actaully had me
bring it in early so it could be showed to the vocational class that was
there. the G code is the same as the hybrids here and exempts me from
having to smog again. I must of asked 10 times but "g" it was.
Then I went to the DMV where they verified the VIN. This should of been
done before the referee trip, I got lucky and the guy was willing to
sign me off "pending" (Of course I new him by now. I had a motor change
on my ICE that had to go back to him so I had 2 referee apointments on
the same day.)
I got plates and tags, but they will not give me my personalized plate
that I payed for over a year ago until they finalize everything, they
made me sent my original reciepts to sacremento. I didn't like that,
espicially since they already have made me go back to the DMV for the
VIN verificaion again, they lost it.
The good part was that the car was a real hit with the personel at the
DMV, Allow extra time when you go back!
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Pl disregard-header in cache by mistake
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>Try $1680 with advanced timing and delivery.
I wasn't aware it went up, but checking the Netgain website,
it did.
>That's $96 each. Mind sharing where you get them at
>that price and if
>that includes delivery? Mine are PS-121000 power
>sonics were quoted at
>$135 each (last week - includes recent lead and fuel
>price increases)
>and $380 for delivery to my door. Total $3485 for 23
>of them.
The PS-121000 are 100 AH at the 20 hr rate. Exide Orbitals
are 50 AH. Yours contain more lead, so they're more likely
going to be more expensive.
Last time I checked, the Orbitals were $96 each. This was
Summer 2005. It may have changed. Doing a search on google,
I just found prices ranging from $100 to $135 within the
first 20 entries. Autosupply USA for instance has the deep
cycle orbitals for $105 each.
It did not include delivery.
>Really?!? Where?!?
Look around. Cars like such have been sold on Ebay for that
price, among other places. Recently, a Datsun 1200 EV
conversion with flooded batteries sold for $3,000 IIRC,
maybe less.
I got my Triumph GT6 for $1,200. Just because a car is old
and rare doesn't make it expensive to purchase. On the other
hand, you'll be spending a lot of time restoring an old/rare
car. Finding parts is doable, but not easy. Eliminating the
internal combustion engine eliminates most of the work and
parts that go along with restoration, a nice bonus.
>Thats significantly above the $8000 cap of the
>"typical" budget
>estimate, and more than his $12000 estimated budget,
>but I believe if
>you went to 300V and used the "HV" Zilla, you could
>meet the mark.
Yes. I went with a higher voltage to come close to his range
target.
My conversion will cost about $12k when completed and would
be roughly the setup you outline. 300V nominal with 25 Exide
Orbitals, 9 motor, Zilla 1k, PFC charger, regs.
But mine's not going to start that way initially. It might
be there in a few years. Given my current available income,
I'm starting it as cheap as possible, for about
$1,500-2,500. This means surplus aircraft starter generator,
flooded batteries, homemade charger, homemade DC-DC
converter, adapter plate made using my university's machine
shop.
I merely wanted to show him what is possible with the sort
of budget he gave, even if it might have gone a little over.
>Looking at an actual ongoing conversion, we can get an
>idea of costs.
>The prices I quote above are from my cost records. So
>far, my Fiero
>conversion has cost $11,800 and I haven't bought
>DC-DC, batteries,
>charger, or regs yet. Of that, I need to subtract
>$893.11 I spent on
>repairs/upgrades to the car only that are not strictly
>required to do
>the conversion.
Considering you're using a high power controller and AGMs,
yours isn't a typical conversion.
If you look on Austinev.org, typical is still a Curtis
controller, 8 or 9 motor, Zivan, Lester, or Rusco
charger, and a pack of flooded batteries, in a small donor
car like a VW Rabbit, Geo Metro, or Chevy S10, often with no
DC-DC converter.
My impression is that PFC chargers, Zillas, AGMs, and such
are usually considered premium items as far as the EV
community is concerned. AC drives, li ions and such are even
a step above that.
>That's a big chunk. Adapter plate and vacuum pump
>(didn't mention that
>item) were $1100.93 for my conversion from CANEV.
>I'll do my own
>racks, but haven't started fabrication yet.
It varies depending on how close you are to the businesses
you are ordering your parts from.
Given Netgain is a few hundred miles from me, I can pay $60
for the gas to drive there, get my motor, and drive back,
which is cheaper than shipping but will take a few hours.
Depending on where this person lives, whether he can get
bulk discounts on components, and what measures he is
willing to go to in order to obtain his components, shipping
costs will vary heavily, from a few hundred dollars, to
thousands.
>My projected total is $11800-$893.11 +$3485 for batts
>+$1035 for 23
>regs +$1500 for charger +$300 (low estimate) for DC-DC
>= $17226.89.
>Significantly over and above the $8000 cap in the
>"typical" quote.
Yours isn't a 'typical' conversion.
>So perhaps we should be telling people that the
>standard run of the
>mill conversion will cost $10,000-$12000 instead of
>$6000-$8000. (And
>obviously I should edit the FAQ on this subject at
>evparts since it was
>written way back when...)
Actually, prices on EV components don't appear to have
changed much from the 90s. Adjusted for inflation, they've
probably gotten cheaper, aside from batteries.
A typical conversion would look something like this:
-WarP 9'' series DC motor x1 $1,575 (Netgain)
-Trojan T105 flooded lead acid battery x16 $1,360 (New
England Solar)
-Curtis Controller(72-120V DC, 400 amp max) x1 $995 (EV
Parts)
-Zivan NG3 Charger x1 $849 (EV Parts)
-Miscellaneous components(Heat shrink tubing, tools, adaptor
plate, fuses, ect.) $2,000
-Components Shipping(Estimated) $1,000
Total: $7,779 + donor vehicle
Often, the person seeking to convert a car already has a
donor chassis.
If you have someone else build your battery racks, make your
adaptor plate, ect. costs go up. Costs especially go up if
one buys a kit with battery racks, adaptor, and other
components pre-fabricated for a specific chassis. With a
kit, one will spend $10,000-12,000 for a car they could
otherwise build for $6,000-8,000 if they did a little work.
The kit could potentially save hundreds of hours of labor.
It depends on whether one has more time or money to devote
to a conversion.
The conversion of a donor vehicle in the above instance is
under $8,000. This setup in a VW Rabbit or similar car would
give roughly 40 miles highway range, top speed of 65-70 mph,
and very slow acceleration.
It is possible to go much cheaper, with a cheaper motor,
cheap US Batteries, homemade charger, and it is possible to
go much more expensive, with AGM batteries, Zilla
controller, ect. $10,000-12,000 gets you either Blue Meanie
like performance or Red Beastie like range with many
luxuries thrown in. $6,000-8,000 gets you Jet Electra type
range and performance, without much luxuries, or with the
right cherry picking of parts, could get a vehicle with Red
Beastie range. This is more typical, at least checking the
entries at Austinev. $2,000 can still get a highway capable
conversion, but like a $12,000 tire roaster, it is a
relative extreme among Evs that have been built.
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