EV Digest 5501
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Regen
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV safety
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) MOSFETs vs. IGBTs
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Brad Baylor)
4) Steam-powered trailer power supply
by "David Sharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) ETTA project
by "David Sharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) NiMH working (was Question about NIMH patent(s))
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: NiMH working (was Question about NIMH patent(s))
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: MOSFETs vs. IGBTs
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Regen
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: NiMH working (was Question about NIMH patent(s))
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: AC vs. DC {getting long}
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: NiMH working
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) bifilar windings
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) thick "primary" and "thinner wire more numerous" windings on a rotor ..
step up transformer effect ?
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Steam-powered trailer power supply .. lighter EV .. heating in winter
.. cooling in summer too .. and no gas stations needed .. wood is a plenty
anywhere !
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV safety
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: NiMH working (was Question about NIMH patent(s))
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) don't forget the anti-freeze! (a long overdue status update)
by Bryan Avery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: WarP motor color, was: Welding on WarP 9 Motor Housing
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Front-Wheel or Rear-Wheel Drive
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: UK Electric Van on Ebay 4640056459
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: NiMH working
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: NiMH working
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: AC vs. DC {getting long}
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Bill and all
It has not vanished and will be a future project but I can not give a time
line on when it will happen.
Much time, effort, and money went into preparing for the Illinios trip of
which I am still re-couping from 8^ (
Alas it's always easier said than done and I find that time speeds by faster
than I can keep up with it 8^ ) Just before the trip I was able to finaly
obtain the Kevlar materials and did my first Kevlar banded comm. for John
Bensons ADC 9. I'll post pics as soon as I heal from Wayland and Tim's abuse!
Having seen 6 exploded 9" comms I felt this was a major "red flag"area needing
prompt attention.
Like all things in life one must pick his battles and make choices as to
their placement on the list. May 28th will be my 1 year anny here at the list
and well it's been a wild ride. I've learned alot and hope I've taught a thing
or two along the way. I'm hoping that Otmar settles down enough for me to
steal some of his time to talk / maybe work on ways to address the problems
faced by EV'ers, both racer and daily's. I'll try my best to not "backburner"
this forever but it will I fear take some materials I don't have and a fair
quanity of time to build. Seeing that someone is interested in it(besides Lee,
Jeff, and I,lol) it caused me to bump it from number 237 on my list to number
43, lmao! and in fact I need to be proded now and again concerning ideas and
projects, so it was good to see this post. I guess I wanted to let you know
that there are so many things awaiting to be tried.
As I look back at this last year I feel I did Okay for a "Feller" from
OREE-Gone and I wanted to say I couldn't have done it with out those I've
connected with. I look forward to my 2nd year here at the EVDL and the growth
that awaits.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
What's the status of the "Crazy Regen Idea" that was discussed last month,
about replacing the DC motor's fan with slip rings? Is Jim Husted working
on that, or has the idea languished?
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James Massey
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:31 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Regen
At 07:00 PM 18/05/06 -0500, Michaela wrote:
>Just thinking again (oh my god .. ;)
>
>Wouldn't it be possible to have a second pair of brushes mounted to a
>'normal' motor (since regen capable sepex and other dc motors are not easy
>to get) and use them for regen?
Sorry no. Lee Hart did a good discussion on this recently - essentially
that the brushes are always shorting two bars of the commutator, they are
set up to ahort two bars that are *at the same voltage* (this is what
timing is about). If they are anywhere else, the brushes are shorting bars
at different voltages and would just burn away. In addition you need to
drive the field hard enough to make the motor generate - not simple on a
standard series motor.
>Or maybe a small(er) sized generator
>(maybe half the size and with the same diameter, pre-drilled and ready to
>slide on the second shaft) that would fit and would be easily mounted to
>an, say, advanced dc motor?
That has merit - along the lines of what Rev. Gadget has done with his
Triumph conversion (in progress I think).
The hard part I see with this is alignment and mounting to the back of the
ADC. It may be better to put an electric clutch on the back of the ADC, and
turn on and off a belt-drive to either a honkin' great alternator or a
3-phase AC generator modified to match the pack voltage, mounted along side
the ADC.
But a lot of these options start to add up unless you are good at
scrounging and DIY, if you were to buy it all new at the same time as the
rest of the EV components, and paying someone to mount them, you may as
well get a surplus AC system from Metric Mind.
Hope this helps
[Technik] James
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One of my co-workers told me about her brother's girlfriend. She was sitting
on the curb, doing the brakes on her Suburu, legs under the car. She had the
car on a jack (No stands, although she has some) and had the wheel and tyre
under the car, but sitting on the curb allowed the falling car to break her
shin-bone, just under the kneecap. Ouch.
David C Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
"The Bush administration's priorities are
"a little bit different now and veterans aren't a priority,"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: EV safety
As it happens, I was talking about this today at work. I ended up
recanting an episode I will never forget. ( from when I was yueng and
stupid, now I am a lot older...)
I was just doing brakes on 1 front wheel and was using one of those
bottle jacks on the street in front of my house. I was sitting on the
ground with legs on either side of wheel, figuring this was a truck
anyway and even if the jack failed I would be OK. Well I was lucky.
I was fighting and tugging on a stuck part and the little bottle jack
had impressed into the old blacktop, it came flying out and down came
the truck. I moved, but not before the backing plate came to rest on the
leg of my jeans.
Try as I might, I couldn't reach the jack, it really flew. Eventually I
had to just give up, wriggle out of my pants and run into the house in
my underware. There must of been 25 kids in the b-day party accross the
street front yard, luckly, none noticed the redfaced man without any
pants running into the house.
I have found that a 4000Lb EV is difficult to jack up and put on jack
stands on even a slightly sloped driveway. the emergancy brake is only
on the rear wheels and it likes to roll back on the floor jack. (Why
isnt there a wheel lock on a floor jack, why not an emergancy brake on
front right/rear left wheel.) I cringe everytime I have to do it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar recently stated that when using over 144V nominal that IGBTs
were better. But some calculations I did leave me confused.
Given a 20 12 V Orbital battery system (192 V):
Losses for a racing controller using 20 paralleled devices (package
limit is 100 A per):
Ixys IXGN 60N60 1.7 VCE 600 V IGBTs:
1.7 V x 2000 A = 3400 W
1.7 V x 1000 A = 1800 W
1.7 V x 500 A = 850 W
1.7 V x 100 A = 170 W
1.7 V x 50 A = 85 W
Ixys IXFN 130N30 22 mohm 300 V MOSFETs:
.0011 ohm x 2000 A ^ 2 = 4400 W
.0011 ohm x 1000 A ^ 2 = 1100 W
.0011 ohm x 500 A ^ 2 = 275 W
.0011 ohm x 100 A ^ 2 = 11 W
.0011 ohm x 50 A ^ 2 = 2.75 W
Losses for a more typical controller with 10 paralleled devices:
Ixys IXGN 60N60 1.7 VCE 600 V IGBTs:
1.7 V x 1000 A = 1800 W
1.7 V x 500 A = 850 W
1.7 V x 100 A = 170 W
1.7 V x 50 A = 85 W
Ixys IXFN 130N30 22 mohm 300 V MOSFETs:
.0022 ohm x 1000 A ^ 2 = 2200 W
.0022 ohm x 500 A ^ 2 = 550 W
.0022 ohm x 100 A ^ 2 = 22 W
.0022 ohm x 50 A ^ 2 = 5.5 W
The IGBTs only appear to have an advantage at racing current levels.
For normal driving, MOSFETs seem the better choice, especially
considering that matching devices is unimportant. What does voltage
(144 V) have to do with anything? Yeah I know the RDSon for 600 V
MOSFETs sucks, but voltages like that aren't used for typical DC
conversions. Desired current levels seems to be the important
parameter in deciding which to use.
Are switching losses lower with IGBTs? Are IGBTs better suited to
handling accidents and abuse? What I'm I missing?
Curiosity is killing this cat.. :)
Brad Baylor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yesterday I returned from Sydney (I live in Melbourne) in my Diesel Peugeot
(2000kms on 90litres of distillate) and followed a main railway line. There
was much broken up sleepers and remnant tree debris visible. When things get
grim we could return to the technology of yesterday for energy- a steamer.
Any manufacturers of small steam reciprocating engines plant in the US? We
have a 10 hp manufacturer in Australia but it is too small I think. My idea
would be a horizontal boiler and induced draft to keep it all low profile.
You would need a closed cycle. Every hour or so you would stop to put in
another log, but having batteries it would not be critical to stop
immediately boiler pressure fell.. No problems getting hot water for tea or
coffee. David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dear Debbie
Pl advise progress on ETTA matters.
Regards
David Sharpe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Speaking of NiMH, while my BMS is being tested and refined, I've
temporary downgraded ACRX to use NiMH batteries - same ones used
in NiMH equipped Rangers and some EV1's.
Here is a photo what it look like (there is no spacers made to fit yet):
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/acrx_nimh.jpg
There are 24 batteries, 13.2V nom total. 85Ah capacity (hopefully I can
get >80Ah since batteries were sitting unused for several years, so
waking up slowly); this yields max drop dead range of 125 miles at my
so-so 240Wh/mile consumption (wrong tires...).
The weight of the vehicle now is as follows:
Front = 1320 lb = 600 kg
Rear = 1540 lb = 700 kg
Total = 2860 lb = 1300 kg
With 28 Optimas it was 3380 lb = 1536kg. So I lost 520 lb
and gain ~2.5x capacity by switching to these batteries.
Will keep switching them until I'm satisfied. LiP pack
will be there (or in Toyota Scion xB it will be teated in)
shortly, and I'll post new photos.
Victor
--
'91 ACRX - something different.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Victor,
I hope you don't mind but I am researching batteries for my conversion.
What is the approximate price of this sort of pack? I am torn between
something like this or Lead Acid (but I'm doing the Morris Minor
conversion so lighter batteries with increased range is a big draw)
Regards
Nikki
On May 19, 2006, at 9:04 AM, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Speaking of NiMH, while my BMS is being tested and refined, I've
temporary downgraded ACRX to use NiMH batteries - same ones used
in NiMH equipped Rangers and some EV1's.
Here is a photo what it look like (there is no spacers made to fit
yet):
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/acrx_nimh.jpg
There are 24 batteries, 13.2V nom total. 85Ah capacity (hopefully I
can
get >80Ah since batteries were sitting unused for several years, so
waking up slowly); this yields max drop dead range of 125 miles at my
so-so 240Wh/mile consumption (wrong tires...).
The weight of the vehicle now is as follows:
Front = 1320 lb = 600 kg
Rear = 1540 lb = 700 kg
Total = 2860 lb = 1300 kg
With 28 Optimas it was 3380 lb = 1536kg. So I lost 520 lb
and gain ~2.5x capacity by switching to these batteries.
Will keep switching them until I'm satisfied. LiP pack
will be there (or in Toyota Scion xB it will be teated in)
shortly, and I'll post new photos.
Victor
--
'91 ACRX - something different.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's not entirely about losses.
IGBTs are usually better suited to handling high currents
and abuse and are generally more compact.
MOSFETs are extremely limited in the current they can pass
relative to IGBTs due to having a limited silicon chip size.
IGBTs generally have larger silicon chips than MOSFETs. More
area = more current that can be handled without failure.
With a bunch of parallelled MOSFETs, one failure could make
the controller fail on. Not good. IGBTs mean less parts for
the same current. This is less points of failure.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Norton wrote:
Toyota believes that the execution of the retail program launch was
very successful. A comprehensive marketing program, strong dealer
support, and an enticing pricing level were keys to this success.
However, sales levels were very low. As a result, no business case
could be made for continuing sales of the RAV4 EV at these volumes.
Considering that they actively discourages ALL sales of this product,
Toyota created exactly the sales volume that they wanted, then used the
"poor numbers" as the foundation for fighting the CARB requirements in
court. They put out an intentionally inferior product, and discourage
the sales, then say that the technology cannot deliver the performance
that the public wants and that the public doesn't want the product in
any case.
A high ranking VP at Toyota spoke at EVS20 in Long Beach and stated that
EV technology could not deliver a 100 mile range, and could not recharge
in a reasonable amount of time, all the while the T-zero was parked
outside with a 100+ mile range and a one hour charge capacity.
You are kidding yourself if you believe that market forces alone
determined the fate of the RAV4EV. It was a project that was designed to
meet the letter of the CARB requirements, and further was designed to be
able to be killed the moment that Toyota was able to do so. They had no
intention of making the product profitable.
Before CARB was killed and before the hybrid "solution" was crafted,
Toyota was saying that in order to be successful, BEV sales had to be in
the millions at market introduction. I know this because I heard it
myself from high ranking Toyota officials. This was given as the reason
that more BEV designs were not introduced.
Then the first couple of hybrids were introduced and they proved that
you can build a very successful and profitable product by starting with
a low production level and educating the end users as to the value of
the new product. The first hybrids were produced in very low numbers
while the market could get "brought up to speed" so to speak.
The very same thing could easily have been done with BEVs, though they
still quote the same tired rhetoric that a product has to immediately
sell in the millions of units range to be successful.
Toyota and the other automakers don't sell BEVs because they don't want
to sell BEVs, not because they cannot be made a profitable success.
Don't forget to consider the overall lifecycle of an automobile. Dealers
make a LOT of money on repair and service of the very complex ICE
designs. The designs are getting more and more complex, requiring more
expensive repairs and greater profitability on parts and service for
both the automaker and the dealers, not to mention the sheer complexity
and the sheer number of parts means that there are many more
opportunities to sell upgrade and aftermarket components.
BEVs on the other hand have very few components comparably and require
significantly less service, maintenance and repair. Dealers do not like
this and neither do manufacturers.
-Ken Trough
V is for Voltage
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
FWIW, in my experience running both AC and DC regen cars, regen returns
about 8% to 12% of the energy used around town, and with a lead acid car
that can increase the range by 20% since the batteries do appreciate the
mini fast charges.
Yesterday I clocked 19% of the amount of spent Wh got returned
to the pack. It was normal around town stop and go driving,
slight inclines and down grades (1-2%).
May be this was exception. When I try to gauge regen, I see typical
values 14%-17% (as reported by Wh counter).
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nikki, don't be torn. NiMH I have are not really available.
They may be bought on ebay perhaps if someone with Ranger EV
will put them for sale, or sometimes universities after using donated
by GM Ovonic batteries sell them when their projects are over.
For the small car lead will be OK, especially if this is your
first project. My advise - make battery boxes as large as
the car frame allows, not just enough to fit today's batteries.
Tomorrow you'll regret it if your new pack will be 2cm wider
and you could build boxes 5cm bigger but didn't think far ahead...
Victor
nikki wrote:
Hi Victor,
I hope you don't mind but I am researching batteries for my conversion.
What is the approximate price of this sort of pack? I am torn between
something like this or Lead Acid (but I'm doing the Morris Minor
conversion so lighter batteries with increased range is a big draw)
Regards
Nikki
On May 19, 2006, at 9:04 AM, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Speaking of NiMH, while my BMS is being tested and refined, I've
temporary downgraded ACRX to use NiMH batteries - same ones used
in NiMH equipped Rangers and some EV1's.
Here is a photo what it look like (there is no spacers made to fit yet):
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/acrx_nimh.jpg
There are 24 batteries, 13.2V nom total. 85Ah capacity (hopefully I can
get >80Ah since batteries were sitting unused for several years, so
waking up slowly); this yields max drop dead range of 125 miles at my
so-so 240Wh/mile consumption (wrong tires...).
The weight of the vehicle now is as follows:
Front = 1320 lb = 600 kg
Rear = 1540 lb = 700 kg
Total = 2860 lb = 1300 kg
With 28 Optimas it was 3380 lb = 1536kg. So I lost 520 lb
and gain ~2.5x capacity by switching to these batteries.
Will keep switching them until I'm satisfied. LiP pack
will be there (or in Toyota Scion xB it will be teated in)
shortly, and I'll post new photos.
Victor
--
'91 ACRX - something different.
--
Thank you and best regards,
Victor Tikhonov
President and CEO
Metric Mind Corporation
http://www.metricmind.com
10645 SE Malden Street
Portland OR 97266-8028 USA
503-680-0026 ph
503-774-4779 fx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
..
No, I did not say that. Why are you responding to a image you have of
me, rather than what I actually say? Funny, I remember writing a lot
about a very fun car I owned that had under 30 kW. (The Chevy Sprint
with Brusa AC drive in case anyone has forgotten. Very fun car)
I'm now feeling very insulted. I spend hours trying to be fair, honest
Sorry, I mean to answer your email in detail Otmar. Previous
email was quick response so you know I'm not ignoring it.
I appreciate you taking time to type it - I just don't have same
couple hours at the moment to respond as I'd like to.
But I promise I will respond; don't be offended by short email.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Man, I wish I had the sort of cash needed for those NiMH
batteries(not to mention the experience needed to bring them
back to usable condition).
>From what I understand, their shelf life is much higher than
that of Li Ions, arguably to the point where it isn't a
factor under repeated use. Team Fate at UCLA, who are
working on plugin hybrids, claims 1,750 cycles to 100% DoD
from the Ovonic NiMH. Cobasys is the more conservative
figure, 1,200 cycles.
Imagine a very aerodynamic sports car equipped with them.
Say, a 150 wh/mile @ 65 mph car with a 330V pack of them.
That's 28 kWh on board, or near 190 miles highway range!
Using Cobasy's numbers, that's near 230,000 miles battery
life. Using Team Fate's numbers, that's 330,000 miles
battery life. Most internal combustion engined cars don't
even last that long.
Forget lithiums. Whenever I get the cash to dump like Victor
has, I'll be looking for some good NiMH. Probably can't beat
them for operating cost and longevity...
Please let us know about your Scion conversion.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i am deeply imprssed with the level of tech and discussion by
real world hands on experienced members here
so i venture to put in a query :
is the bifilar method of winding being used on any device,
motor, etc ?
..peekay
(is such a device in actual use ?)
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
recently i came across a 'different' kind of alternator ..
the current was generated by the movement of its
rotor as in a regular alternator .. BUT .. there were
'secondary' windings of thinner wires and more turns
in the same slot
it was claimed that the 'transformer' action .. stepping
up of voltage is achieved .. and the thinner winding
delivered the generated higher voltage ac current to
the sliprings from where it was tapped .. for further
use as would be possible
i have never come across this 'thick wire' generating
with "thin wire" stepping up the voltage in a rotor ..
step up transformers do it all the time .. but they
don't rotate nor are their secondary turns sharing
the slots of the 'primary' windings in the rotor
..peekay
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
'trailer' .. cute
can i add that if the 'natural' fuel abundantly available is used
to turn the generator to charge the batteries in the same
trailer .. then the car can be extremely light too .. with only
leads coming in .. like one model which already exists ..
trailer solar panels, trailer genset
maybe we can just un-hitch and go for a quick short ride ..
come back and move on ..
one good thing could be the warming of the car and its
passengers in the intense cold weather that most people
face in the northern part of our countries
..peekay
(oh .. heat can cool too .. check up ammonia based
refrigeration .. 70% ammonia 30% water solution
WAS used .. heat had to be applied to release
ammonia from the solution .. go into cooling coil
and do the refrigeration work .. very old tech !)
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Sharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 5:09 AM
Subject: Steam-powered trailer power supply
> Yesterday I returned from Sydney (I live in Melbourne) in my Diesel
Peugeot
> (2000kms on 90litres of distillate) and followed a main railway line.
There
> was much broken up sleepers and remnant tree debris visible. When things
get
> grim we could return to the technology of yesterday for energy- a steamer.
> Any manufacturers of small steam reciprocating engines plant in the US? We
> have a 10 hp manufacturer in Australia but it is too small I think. My
idea
> would be a horizontal boiler and induced draft to keep it all low profile.
> You would need a closed cycle. Every hour or so you would stop to put in
> another log, but having batteries it would not be critical to stop
> immediately boiler pressure fell.. No problems getting hot water for tea
or
> coffee. David
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.6/338 - Release Date: 12/05/2006
>
>
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I have found that a 4000Lb EV is difficult to jack up and put on jack
> stands on even a slightly sloped driveway. the emergancy brake is only
> on the rear wheels and it likes to roll back on the floor jack. (Why
> isnt there a wheel lock on a floor jack, why not an emergancy brake on
> front right/rear left wheel.) I cringe everytime I have to do it.
That's why they invented "Wheel chocks", another invaluable and really
cheap tool.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Victor,
i have few 100AH Saft NIMH and was told to not put them like you did (on
side) because thermal reaction (critical with NIMH) will not be the same on
the whole module.
Could you comment please if you were told totaly different advise ?
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 10:04 AM
Subject: NiMH working (was Question about NIMH patent(s))
> Speaking of NiMH, while my BMS is being tested and refined, I've
> temporary downgraded ACRX to use NiMH batteries - same ones used
> in NiMH equipped Rangers and some EV1's.
> Here is a photo what it look like (there is no spacers made to fit yet):
>
> http://www.metricmind.com/misc/acrx_nimh.jpg
>
> There are 24 batteries, 13.2V nom total. 85Ah capacity (hopefully I can
> get >80Ah since batteries were sitting unused for several years, so
> waking up slowly); this yields max drop dead range of 125 miles at my
> so-so 240Wh/mile consumption (wrong tires...).
>
> The weight of the vehicle now is as follows:
>
> Front = 1320 lb = 600 kg
> Rear = 1540 lb = 700 kg
> Total = 2860 lb = 1300 kg
>
> With 28 Optimas it was 3380 lb = 1536kg. So I lost 520 lb
> and gain ~2.5x capacity by switching to these batteries.
>
> Will keep switching them until I'm satisfied. LiP pack
> will be there (or in Toyota Scion xB it will be teated in)
> shortly, and I'll post new photos.
>
> Victor
>
> --
> '91 ACRX - something different.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, so it's been a while since I've posted any updates, so I just wanted
to take a minute to catch everyone up with the status of my project (97
Honda Accord conversion) for those who are interested. I've got my
BZZZZT license plates and finally got the DMV to update the "fuel type"
on my registration to electric after they ignored my scribled notes on
the renewal form the first time. I haven't really put much work into
the project over the past year so not a lot has been done, but just a
few months ago I finally started getting back into it, and finally got
the PFC-30 charger & regulators wired up and operational. I was looking
forward to actually being able to drive it on a semi-regular basis (I
had made a few test-drives here and there, but it's a lot of work
charging each battery back up individually with the 12V car battery
charger). Unfortunately, several days later we had a really hard freeze
and by the time I realized that I had never put any anti-freeze in when
I re-filled the radiator last time and that it was indeed getting down
to freezing temperatures, it was too late. The frozen rivulet of water
leading across the driveway was indeed coming from underneath the car,
and when I checked I discovered icicles on the underside of the motor
coming from where the expanding water had forced its way out, pushing
aside the rubber gasket of the motor.
I'm optimistic, and I think the motor should hopefully be fine if I can
just replace the gaskets, but in neglecting the anti-freeze I managed to
create a LOT of extra work for myself. I've pulled everything back out
of the engine compartment and have the motor & transmission ready to
pull as soon as my friend comes through with the engine hoist he has
promised to let me borrow. I'm hoping to get the motor pulled this
weekend, at which point I get to try my luck with disassembling the
siemens motor.
I've started putting together a somewhat crude website for the car, so
if you would like to take a look at some pictures, you can see the car
and its freeze-damaged motor in all its glory at http://www.bzzzzt.net.
I've already promised to take a bunch of pictures of the internals of
the motor for Victor, but will be sure to post some on the website too.
Bryan Avery
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
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Thanks Ryan,
I wound up welding the motor mount tabs on and painting with the Ford Red
engine block paint from Schmucks. They didn't have engine block paint in
the "Bright Red" category. Its slightly off color but I can live with it.
Pics on EVAlbum http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/756
Mike
Anchorage, AK.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Ryan Bohm
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 5:09 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: WarP motor color, was: Welding on WarP 9 Motor Housing
Hi all,
>>> Also, anyone know the exact color match for the WarP red they put on
>>>
> those
>
>>> things. The Ford Red has a slight orange'ish tint.
>>>
> I'm finding out - I'll let you know when I do.
>
NetGain got back with me. The 50 gallon container just says "Bright
Red" on it. If you need just a small quantity for touch-up, a small
vial could probably be obtained. If the demand is there, it is possible
pint-purchases could be arranged. The other alternatives are purchasing
a 50 gallon container (hehe :)), or trying to match the color at a paint
store.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Please Ryan turn your email setting "asking for read confirmation" off.
thanks
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pool, Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 12:44 AM
Subject: RE: Front-Wheel or Rear-Wheel Drive
> I have wondered about something similar, mounting the motor(s) to the
frame of a small truck under the bed.
>
> I see two potential problems. I don't know enough yet to determine how
significant they are. 1. This would seem to increase the distance between
the controller and the motor(s) unless done carefully and 2. Putting the
motor(s) closer to the rear axle would increase the angle that the driveline
moves as the suspension compresses and extends.
>
> Anyone have any insights on those?
>
> Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My electric Van now listed on ebay in the UK
item 4640056459
John
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--- Begin Message ---
John Westlund wrote:
Man, I wish I had the sort of cash needed for those NiMH
batteries(not to mention the experience needed to bring them
back to usable condition).
...
Forget lithiums. Whenever I get the cash to dump like Victor
has, I'll be looking for some good NiMH. Probably can't beat
them for operating cost and longevity...
Please let us know about your Scion conversion.
These batteries cost me relative little, they were throw away ones.
What you see was less than $3k.
I hope they will behave, but will see.
I would not be able to afford new ones if they'd be sold today.
Lithium is no doubt the battery of future, but NiMH also
works very well and since no electronics need to take care of it,
cost less.
No I'm not made of cash. Working on it though.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe, valid question!
Yes,, I was told (by someone worked on the design on these) there is no
problem having them on their side as long as they don't vent.
So I keep my fingers crossed, and watch charging.
My charging criteria is returning 105% of the charge (Ah) spent
since last full charge; and BRUSA Ah counter takes care of the
tracking.
Question to you: do you know the thermocompensation coefficient
for these? How max (100% SOC) voltage depends on the temperature?
Victor
Philippe Borges wrote:
Hi Victor,
i have few 100AH Saft NIMH and was told to not put them like you did (on
side) because thermal reaction (critical with NIMH) will not be the same on
the whole module.
Could you comment please if you were told totaly different advise ?
cordialement,
Philippe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK Otmar, let's try to clear this up.
I agree with Jeff Shanab that it would be very useful to see a web page
dedicated to comparing AC and DC systems. This would best be done by
someone other than myself or Victor since we both have conflicting
business interests.
Comparing AN AC systems and DC systems will be useful, though isn't
quite the same as comparing particular AC systems I sell and
DC controllers you make.
By the way, Jeff Shanab said a very important thing concerning motors
when he said:
"All are availability limited"
This, in the end, is the reason we often use a motor that is less than
ideal in our EV's. Fortunately, those that we can get are very close to
ideal.
I don't see how this relates to the topic.
For those who missed it, my beef is with a number of the statements
Victor made under section 3 of his QA here:
http://www.metricmind.com/qa.htm
So Victor, on to the points.
I'm glad you see my logic on the motor question. I look forward to your
rewrite on that. It seems we are resolved on that issue.
I'll re-word it. Essence remains valid. If your motor overheats,
you must add cooling (blowers). Your shifting pattern must depend on the
road conditions and driving needs. Do you think about the motor temp
of an ICE as you drive? High or low RPM, engine takes care of its
cooling, it's not driver's concern. Driver's concern is road ahead.
Same must be here.
You seem to have missed my point on the controller comparison.
My point is you chose the wrong Zilla. You choose to compare your 78 kW
system to my 600 kW $4000 system. Features or not, YOU made the choice
to compare them. My point was only this:
Why did you compare your 78 kW system to my $4900 600 kW system?
I didn't. IF you'd have patience to read the paragraph to the end, you
will see that I chose Z1k, not Z2k precisely because features set
is the same and power is closer. Here is copy/paste of that paragraph
entirely:
========
Controller. Thus far, there are no water cooled programmable DC
controllers taking 380V input, providing 100 kW output, featuring
regenerative braking and having integrated DC-DC converter, so no apples
to apples comparison will be possible. One of the best ones - water
cooled Zilla 2K comes to mind, but it is too powerful for a single 8"
ADC motor - classic problem of big mismatch. Besides, at $4900 the total
cost with a DC motor becomes $6100, just $800 less than complete AC
solution (still no regen) and we didn't even start shopping for a DC-DC,
and main + reversing +precharge contactors yet. Once we're done, it will
certainly cost MORE than AC setup. So we will have to settle for 348V
water cooled Zilla 1K. Compared to an AC inverter, it still provides
more raw power. At $2850 no regen, no DC-DC, no contactors, no dash
interface harness, no throttle sensor, no power cables and 10 times less
warranty period (comparing to Simovert 6SV1). With this choice, $4050 so
far.
=====================
Stand alone, this paragraph appears to be taken out of context because
cost calculations are preceding it and following it, so it may be
difficult to comprehend by reading it alone. But I repeat: Z1K is being
compared to Simovert short inverter (prices at the time it was written).
Considering this cleared, skipping forward.
The primary reason I wonder about your choice to use the Z2K-EHV is that
Again, this is not what I did.
It looks to me that you are comparing apples to freight trains.
It looks like you can't read Otmar.
As if you were intentionally misleading to your readers.
I need to think how to react on this statement without ruining
your reputation Otmar. What you're trying to do here, won't work.
I expect you to apologize here.
The reason I stated that you seemed to think high voltage is better is
because you chose to compare one of my more expensive high voltage
controllers rather than what I feel is the more practical low voltage
unit.
I don't know what you feel. I have only high voltage units and compared
to also identical high voltage controllers.
I do have low voltage inverters now, for 1/2 cost of high voltage,
but this tells people nothing: my pricing depends on the discounts
I get from my supplier and may range from unproportionally high to
almost give away based on the situation.
If you don't feel high voltage is better, then it makes sense for
you to change which Zilla controller you are comparing to yours. By the
way, for your future reference all Zilla prices are on my website here:
http://cafeelectric.com/products/price/
OK. You know where to see mine. Ignoring Siemens, we can discuss MES
inverters, their prices are not surplus and more stable. Power/features
wise about the same.
so you do not need to go to my dealers who are not required to show all
the models or options that Cafe Electric offers. Maybe the site you
consulted did not have my most popular low voltage model.
If you want to compare apples to apples, compare high voltage systems.
Or, let's compare low voltage systems I have how:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_001.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_002.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_003.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_004.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_005.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5109/1fv5104ws09_006.jpg
As I stated: $2.3k inverter, $2.3k motor (up to supplier
to change that). Identical feature set, only low voltage (72-160V)
and proportionally lower power.
Since you brought it up, I'll discuss controller efficiency and rating
related to voltage. It is true that controller efficiency goes up with
higher voltage (once you are running IGBTs which both Siemens and Cafe
Electric controllers are doing).
The thing to consider is this:
The cost of IGBT based power electronics is relative to the current
carrying capacity. IGBT's make sense for any system over 144V nominal,
so they are primarily what we use today for on road EVs. (Victor, I know
you know this, but many of our readers surely do not) Of course the
"efficiency sucks" (your words) on a AC drive that is run below its
maximum rated voltage. And I will add that the power of course drops
too. This is one of the disadvantages of the AC drive.
The power for DC controller drops too - no difference.
If your silicon handles 1000A, then at 200V it's 200kW, and
at 100V is only 100kW, at 50V is 50kW isn't it? Provided
you stay at 1000A silicon limit.
It needs so much
silicon that they can't afford to overbuild the rating as much as I can
with the simple (and yes I'll say it, Crude ) DC system.
/side note
Good. Why don't you say honest on your commercial web site then:
Crude Cafe electric DC controllers. $1,975 (or whatever).
Misleading your customers? I hole you got my point.
/side note
As I see it the real question for people regarding voltage choice is this:
Can you get sufficient power for your needs, while using the batteries
you want to use, with the controller you can afford? Often this comes
down to the controller being able to make enough power at low voltages
since 6 volt golf car batteries are by far the lowest cost per mile
(usually by a factor of four compared to AGM and other higher tech
batteries). So you see, this is why for most people who don't have
unlimited funds, the battery choice is a integral part of the drive
system choice.
Of course I understand that. People with limited funds don't buy
Mercedeses either. So why Mercedes (company) has to struggle
to make them as cheap as possible? We're talking about systems for
OEM market and I can name many OEM production vehicles (in Europe)
where they are used. Your have to think about people on budget who
prefer 6V golf cart batteries. OEM systems are NOT suppose to cost
the same as non-OEM ones.
You mention that you have low voltage AC systems for $4000. That sounds
interesting and I did not see it on your web site. Can you tell us
details?
I' planning to put them on the web. It will be more than $4k.
I'd like to know what the voltage and power ratings are, as
well as if they also include the DC to DC converter in the package like
most of your systems do.
72-160V, 325A battery amps if I recall. Yes, DC-DC converter is
included. Power is small, it's meant for compact cars and European
mentality, so I don't expect to sell very many.
Next point, where Victor claims my writing is BS. :-)
I claim that my controller costs $1975. Victor says this is BS. What can
I say? I've sold well over a hundred of them for less that $2000.
Don't twist what I said. I said if your controller will include
everything included in AC inverter package (same parameters
DC-DC, same throttle pot, same contactors, pre-wired interface, etc), it
will NOT cost $1975.
Victor then babbles
I'm asking you to watch your language if you want to have conversation.
...about the balance of system components. Well yes, I
didn't say my "complete drive package" costs $1975, I said my controller
costs $1975. It seems to me that if you want to price a complete drive
package you should at least include the battery price since it is often
dictated by which controller is chosen.
I disagree. Battery impacts everything but is not part of the
drive systems cost we're comparing. For comparison wee can both
use 24 Optimas (so the battery cost has no impact AC vs DC).
We're not discussing how people should build cars (so tie battery
parameters to the electronics. We discuss the cost of non-disposable
hardware.
(I notice Victor strongly denies
this fact, but to those who are building a car it matters a lot)
This is true, but irrelevant for discussion. We are not
talking about overall building a car.
Oh, and yes, that $1975 does include the Hairball. But Victor is correct
in that it does not include the hall effect accelerator pedal.
So how about DC-DC and contactors? To provide *the same electric
reverse* functionality, you must include reversing contactor
in the price. Don't tell me people has transmissions with reverse,
we're not comparing transmissions. We're comparing what my system
as is can do. Make yours do the same.
If you
choose that, notice mine gives you the choice, the pedal, cable and
special Hairball will cost you about $120 extra over the 5K pot input
version. And yes, it is a nice OEM automotive accelerator pedal I sell.
I have not checked lately but I believe there are well over a hundred
thousand cars currently running this exact part. Is the Bosh pedal
Victor sells with his also a common part? I suspect it is but I doubt
the production is in the six figures.
It is spelled Bosch. Yes, it is OEM part, I don't know how many
cars use it. Suffice, I have never heard of a failure of this part.
This is the part of choice of my supplier, as well as contactors
choice.
As for the number of features, others have addressed this. The simple
fact is that AC drive requires more features in order to protect the
more fragile motor. Rotor overheating is a big issue with powerful AC
drives (yes I've built AC drives too) and the software has to be pretty
clever to keep this part of the motor which does not have a temperature
sensor from turning into a molten hunk of aluminum (or copper, on the
high performance ones I work with).
I'm not only talking about features specific for AC motor needs
(though they are there and cost money). But I admit, I have not
read functionality description of a hairball interface, I never cared.
I find it rather amusing that Victor says this: "We're not discussing if
you need them or want them. I'm telling you what exactly cost money."
Why would I pay money for something that I did not need or want!? Why
should anyone else pay for a unwanted and unused feature? I think we ARE
discussing if you need or want the features. Why else would someone pay
money for them?
Interesting. By the same talking why should I pay for 300kW zilla
if I have to limit power to lower value not to break anything or
prevent clutch from slipping? Why do I pay for 1000A silicon
if my battery is rated for, say, 250A? I don't have to. Yet, you
specified above 1000A zilla's silicon was what, $700? So, waste
of money for me?
So listen up everybody! It seem to me that Victor is saying that if you
want to pay for a lot of features you will never use, and you don't care
if you can accelerate up to freeway speed before then end of the
on-ramp, then please be sure to go out and buy a Siemens system from
Victor! :)
Very funny. The key word here is it seem that way for *you*.
I have plenty of performance. Stock Honda CRX is no slug, and
my EV is better than stock. I don't care if your Porsche is
quicker, there is always something quicker yet.
And, yes, people who pay for features use them. For instance
10 years warranty. (This though rather exception, MES systems
are two years warranty). OR the fact that the motor is sealed
and practically indestructible. You will never overheat it.
Or that there are no exposed high voltage connections.
Or, you can listen to the radio while driving because of
EMI is taken care of.
Or, you're 100% assured it will not fail full on.
Or record any of 512 running parameters (any 16 at the time
I believe) as you drive to plot and inspect them later,
Or...
Who cares, right Otmar? The only fun is shredded rubber!
This is tongue in cheek of course. As I said before, AC
systems are great and are really nice in the right application. If
efficiency is paramount then AC is the way to go. It's just that Victors
"comparison" is not very good and needs to be re-written.
AS I said, I'll revise it. I think I'll just describe what it
is, what it can do and what it cost, and throw out comparisons
with any DC systems. It will be more professional.
Look at other suplier's sites, same Siemens, BRUSA, Ballard,
UQM, whoever. Everyone presents their stuff. No respecting
supplier brings and trashes competitor's product. There are
independent sites for that.
If someone wants to host comparison page, I'll supply technical info.
The only reason I have what I have is because every second email I get
is question asking to help to choose, why do I want AC?
Really Victor, Your arguments are just making your systems seem much
worse than they really are.
Better for you then, less competition from me :-)
Don't worry about AC systems. I will.
Back to features: I've put a number of settings and features in the
...
Oh Wow, I just looked at Victors "super feature list"!
http://www.metricmind.com/features.htm
I expected it to be much longer than that.
It wasn't meant to beat a length record. I could list all settable
parameters there and explain benefits of each one, but it would
be boring. The list is far from exhaustive and wasn't meant to be.
If that's what costs money then I need to raise my prices! :)
I don't *raise* prices. They are the same as when I started
operating and stay put unless supplier's price changes.
The fact is that the Zilla has most of those features. The ones we don't
have are the ones you need for a AC
motor drive or for the integrated DC-Dc converter. If Victor would like
to format the list in a email with one line per feature, I'd be most
happy to show how the Zilla package compares on each of the listed
features line by line.
May be. So you may find some interesting ones and implement them.
But sorry, I won't re-format anything just to satisfy your
curiosity Otmar.
Let's see, what have I missed...
Oh, yes, Victor could care less about power if it breaks the car.
Naturally, that would be no fun.
Depends for whom.
That is why the Hairball that comes
with every Zilla has adjustments for sixteen different voltage and
current limits. You get to set the limits to a safe value for the rest
of your car.
Ah, so you do charge for unused potential of the controller?
I do realize it is impossible for one person to build
a line of controllers with 20kW increments so the user
could pick only as much power as he wants to pay for.
MES builds motors from 9kW to 30 kW (rated) with fine
3kW increments and proportional cost. That would be too much
effort.
Yes, it's true that some people are running their Zillas at
a maximum of 300 battery amps since they want long battery life, (it's
slower, but works well for their application) but at the same time they
can also be running 700 or more motor amps to get that nice off the line
torque. The Zilla is pretty flexible depending on what you want to
accomplish.
I never said Otmar that Zilla is not flexible. I'm maintaining
that AC systems I have while cost more dollars also offer more
and so worth every penny. I don't believe you can name any worthless
feature. Yes, I promote AC systems. Because they are that good.
And, I did not set the "price of features".
If you *want* to buy a Mercedes, you pay what it cost, or walk away.
You don't complain it's too expensive. There are other cars to
fill the void.
Same here.
OK, it's getting late, and I think I've addressed all the questions and
misconceptions that Victor brought up. Let me know what I've missed and
you'll be sure to hear my opinion on it! :)
Indeed, 3:40am. Can't believe it.
I also think I've answered all the questions Otmar labeled "misconceptions".
Sorry, no more time.
Victor
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