EV Digest 5510
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Edison batteries
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Three-wheel Go-cart
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: thick "primary" and "thinner wire more numerous" windings on a
rotor .. step up transformer effect ?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV external charger
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Fans in parallel
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Question about NIMH patent(s)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: bifilar windings
by Randall Prentice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Hydraulic Hybrid
by Daniel J Jordan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: G'bye Porsche...
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Source for NiFe batteries (Was: Question about NIMH patent(s))
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Question about NIMH patent(s)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: G'bye Porsche...
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Question about NIMH patent(s)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV Range Records
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: MOSFETs vs. IGBTs
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Aerodynamics .. viktor's idea .. to reduce 'drag' to near zero
by Gnat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: bifilar windings
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) TdS Report #42: Team Profile: The Attack
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) Re: Question about NIMH patent(s)
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) TdS Report #43: Photos - Attack
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Re: MOSFETs vs. IGBTs
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) Re: G'bye Porsche...
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: 200 miles highway range on flooded lead acid: Is it possible?
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Finally, some progress to show
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Taperlock dilemma
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Valence
by "Dave Roekle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence,
Who are you refering to? I'm in SJ.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I know a guy in the Bay Area with a bunch of the Edison cells. I
bet he'd
> give them to you. Lawrence Rhodes.....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 5:49 PM
> Subject: Edison batteries
>
>
> > You can sometimes find them for sale on the EV sites. There were
several
> > auto batteries available, about 4 years ago, on one of the EV For Sale
> > sites. The only thing EBay has today is the wooden box 4 of these
cells
> > were
> > kept in.
> >
http://cgi.ebay.com/1890s-EDISON-LALANDE-Type-S-4-cell-battery-box_W0QQitemZ6279865096QQcategoryZ414QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
> >
> > You might also contact this dealer that scraps Edison batts. They
insist
> > that the batts be stripped of their contacts and wooden crates,
but might
> > guide you to someone.
> > http://www.recycle.net/specs/gr030560.html
> > The Edisonian might also know something about where to find them
> > http://www.edisonian.com
> > I've also read that a Chinese company (and one in Europe???) is making
> > replacements.
> >
> > They weren't used in all that many autos, but were popular for
industrial
> > uses, due to their long life and relatively light weight per watt
> > (compared
> > to LA of the time.) Apparently the 1.3V required too many cells,
and their
> > maintenance/weather profile, made them not the best for mobile
> > applications.
> > (Though I understand some forklifts and heavy trucks may have used
them.)
> > They were critical to be kept maintained & didn't do well in the
cold...
> > and
> > hydrogen offgassing during charging doesn't make them overly popular.
> >
> > These can often be rebuilt today, 100 years after they were built,
I'm
> > told.
> > (Jay Leno's car has the original batts.. or at least the original
cases...
> > and uses it to drive his car around.) You'll see a lot of bottles
for sale
> > "Edison Battery Oil". That oil was dumped atop the batts, floating, to
> > minimize evaporation.
> >
> > "Another widely used secondary cell is the alkaline cell, or
nickel-iron
> > battery, developed by the American inventor Thomas Edison in the
1900s.
> > The
> > principle of operation is the same as in the lead-acid cell except
that
> > the
> > negative electrode consists of iron, the positive electrode is of
nickel
> > oxide, and the electrolyte is a solution of potassium hydroxide. The
> > nickel-iron cell has the disadvantage of giving off hydrogen gas
during
> > charging. This battery is used principally in heavy industry
applications.
> > The Edison battery has a useful life of approximately ten years and
> > produces
> > about 1.15 V."
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 12:59 PM
> > Subject: Re: Question about NIMH patent(s)
> >
> >
> >> I'd love to disect an original Edison battery. I think they were in
> >> metal cans?
> >>
> >> It's clear that the energy density is not as good as lead acid, but
> >> then again, maybe that can be changed.
> >>
> >> Mike
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I Have not pushed it very hard...gets a little eratic
above 35 mph...my intention is to vary the speed of
the motors on the front wheels and have a very
positive electrically/computer contoled power stearing
unit to keep from having the common oversteer problems
of a rear steerer.. yes it self centers but still
requires constant monitoring manual control...levers
on one system and yoke on the other..am looking for
photos
kEVs
--- ProEV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Keith,
>
> < I have a 4 three
> > wheelers and they are all tadpole design one with
> rear
> > stearing and all are stable and quick. >
>
> Could you post more about your experiences with the
> rear steering 3 wheeler?
>
> Does it track straight? Do the rear wheel self
> center? Is it easy for a
> beginner to drive? Does it use a steering wheel or
> levers?
>
> Have you pushed it hard such as an autocross course?
>
> Do you have pictures?
>
> Thanks
>
> Cliff
> www.ProEV.com
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
peekay wrote:
> the current was generated by the movement of its rotor as in a
> regular alternator .. BUT .. there were 'secondary' windings of
> thinner wires and more turns in the same slot
>
> it was claimed that the 'transformer' action .. stepping
> up of voltage is achieved .. and the thinner winding
> delivered the generated higher voltage ac current to
> the sliprings from where it was tapped .. for further
> use as would be possible
Coils generate a certain number of volts per turn. More turns produces
more volts. Two sets of windings on the same core produces proportional
voltages in each winding. Indeed, this is how transformers work.
But there's no free energy. A winding with twice the turns produces
twice the voltage but half the current, so the power is the same.
Some motors are built with two identical winding that can be externally
connected in series or parallel. This is how they make one motor that
can run on (say) 120vac (both windings in parallel) or 240vac (both
windings in series). But the motor produces exactly the same horsepower
either way.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Aymerick SALERMO wrote:
> I am looking for information about the way to make a vehicle
> communicate with an external charger system. I heard there was
> some Norma like 9141, Keyword Protocol, and FAKRA. Has anyone
> here done it before? Can someone help me out?
There are dozens of systems, but no standards. Every one who has done it
seems to invent their own without regard to what anyone else has done.
so, you might as well do the same! :-)
Decide what information you want to exchange, and then pick a protocol
that can handle this data bandwidth, range, reliability, etc.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
> So if 5 fans of 30cfm each are in aerodynamic parallel, so they
> add up to 150 cfm total? In other words, if 5 fans were connected
> to the same box, can they push 150 cfm thru it? I bet not, but
> wanted to see if someone has been there and done that.
The "30cfm" rating of the fans is probably the free-air airflow (zero
back pressure), or at some very low back pressure. The airflow of a
propeller-type fan is strongly affected by back pressure. If you used 5
of them blowing into the same box, with the same size exhaust opening,
you may well find that all 5 only produce twice the airflow, because the
higher flow doubles the back pressure.
The only way to get 5 times the airflow with 5 fans is if you also have
5 times the exhaust air vent size.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom Watson wrote:
>
> Ok it is 20yrs for a us patent ... now when was this patent filed?
> anybody?
It's gotten more complicated than that. It has become routine to re-file
an "amended" patent every few years, which extends the patent life.
Enough laywers can extend the effective life of a patent almost
indefinitely.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Biflar windings are generally used in RF work where you run more than one
winding to cancel out the magnetic flux in directions that you don't want.
The Field Winding (Which is the Stator winding) in a DC motor is normally
wound to generate a fixed field at rating. The problem of increasing the
field beyond this point is that the Rotor starts to saturate leading to
increased losses.
Note: In a series motor this doesn't stop the extra Flux from generating
more torque its just at lower efficiency.
In a compound motor the extra winding in series with the Amature is used to
cancel out the "Torque Reaction" (Which is rotation of the rotors flux in
response to the field) by adding a winding to shift the field in response to
rotor current. The observed I'll effect of "Toque Reaction" is to cause the
brush timing (Read position) to be wrong leading to arcing.
Regards
Randall Prentice
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of peekay
> Sent: Sunday, 21 May 2006 3:03 a.m.
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: bifilar windings
>
>
> since there is a lot of talk on use of dc motors and
> since dc motors have stator 'poles' which sometimes
> are also strengthened by looping back some current
> generated in the dc generator, and
> since the winding usually is just a simple coil on the core
> using a single wire
>
> therefore the issue would be : what if a bifilar winding
> is used on the pole .. the so called 250,000 times
> amplification casued by such winding (as in the refered
> tesla's invention link) .. how will it affect the magnetic
> ability of the pole ?
>
> or is the bifilar a totally different thingy ?
>
> ..peekay
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brad Baylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 12:14 AM
> Subject: Re: bifilar windings
>
>
> > If's just a term for describing two windings with the wires side by
> > side on a transformer, motor, etc.
> >
> > Pretty decent writeup on Wikipedia:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bifilar
> >
> > Brad Baylor
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.6.1/344 - Release
> Date: 19/05/2006
> >
> >
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was looking around about using hydraulic pressure for regen/launch
control. Looks interesting, anyway. But it would need to be a hybrid,
because the pressure doesn't last long enough for any range without
braking. All of the writings have an ICE as the other engine. Why not
use a smaller battery pack and an electric motor? Or fuel cell?
Thanks
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Grasser writes:
>
> > Is it possible that the regulator on one of the batteries near the
> > source of the fire got wet? I had an older regulator short on when
> > it got wet. It got pretty hot while sitting there discharging the
> > battery. Fortunately I caught it before anything melted or caught
> > fire.
I should've written "stick on" instead of "short on" above.
> Sounds like a good reason for a fuse, or maybe a fuse trace on the board. I
> think I'll archive this note.
A fuse is a good idea (and the newer Mk2B's have built-in fuses), however
this failure mode is one that would not cause the fuse to blow. The
regulator was happily dumping power into the load like normal, but the
control circuit was stuck on...
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chet Fields wrote:
>
> Here is one source.
>
> http://www.beutilityfree.com/batteryNiFe/FAQNIFE.html
>
> I think a few of the drawbacks are initial cost, low efficiency, high self
> discharge and low current. But they do last nearly forever.
They are *capable* of lasting for decades. Whether they actually do, or
die young due to manufacturing defects or owner abuse is the big
unknown!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
> I'd love to disect an original Edison battery. I think they were in
> metal cans?
The originals were in glass cases; at least the ones I've seen.
Not hard to dissect; they were *built* to be easily disassembled for
rebuilding. The original separators were pig intestine, which had to be
replaced every 5-10 years. Also, the KOH electrolyte needed to be
replaced every so often, as it "carbonates" by absorbing atmospheric
carbon dioxide.
> It's clear that the energy density is not as good as lead acid, but
> then again, maybe that can be changed.
The old Edison NiFe were slightly better than the lead-acids of the
time. The recent Eagle Picher NiFe were likewise a bit bette than
today's lead-acid. Somewhere in between lead-acids and nicads.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph,
Still sounds like something is not right. Who's regs are these? There should
be current limiting and temp limiting on these, no?
Mark Grasser
78 #358
BIG REDs
http://members.rennlist.com/mgrasser
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: G'bye Porsche...
Mark Grasser writes:
> Is it possible that the regulator on one of the batteries near the
> source of the fire got wet? I had an older regulator short on when
> it got wet. It got pretty hot while sitting there discharging the
> battery. Fortunately I caught it before anything melted or caught
> fire.
I should've written "stick on" instead of "short on" above.
Sounds like a good reason for a fuse, or maybe a fuse trace on the board.
I
think I'll archive this note.
A fuse is a good idea (and the newer Mk2B's have built-in fuses), however
this failure mode is one that would not cause the fuse to blow. The
regulator was happily dumping power into the load like normal, but the
control circuit was stuck on...
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andre' Blanchard wrote:
> While the nominal or advertised capacity may not be as good, you can
> use a lot more of it without damaging the battery.
Well, to a point. With NiFe, you don't hurt it from overly deep
discharges, but the internal resistance is so high that it takes forever
to get those extra amphours out. If you try to discharge it at high
current, the high internal resistance causes the cells to overheat.
> As far as changing that, I do not think much development has been
> done with nickel iron batteries since Edison, so there could be
> significant improvements possible.
> With NiFe batteries habit of making gas, and the current development
> of fuel cells I wonder if it would be worth designing the batteries
> to separate the H2 from the O2 and with a small compressor save the
> H2. Then on discharge feed it to a small fuel cell. Or it may be
> better to keep the compressor and H2 storage stationary at the
> charging station and just put another battery or 2 in the vehicle.
> But that may be a complicated way of doing what the NiMH battery
> does internally.
I was thinking along the same lines. An nimh cell has a spongy iron
alloy plate; the H2 is adsorbed into the spongy structure during charge,
and converted back into water during discharge. Thus nimh cells can be
sealed, and don't gas or need watering. An edison cell has a similar
plate, but they just vent the gas during charging. Then it needs to be
replaced (add water) during charging.
This leads me to wonder if there aren't many intermediate steps between
the two. Various iron alloys, that get various amounts of their chemical
reactivity from the iron or H2.
Reusing the NiFe cell's H2 might also be a sly way to get
government/venture capitalist R&D money to study it as a hydrogen "fuel
cell" :-)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Stensland wrote:
> I've been asked a question by a media corespondent: "Does anyone know
> what is the longest range to date for an Electric Vehicle?"
Didn't BAT do some gimmicky range test of about 1000 miles at low speed
with a huge load of non-rechargable cells in a little industrial EV?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brad Baylor wrote:
> Does that hold true when comparing parts with the same package and
> similar ratings, as I've done with this comparison? The parts in the
> comparison are both SOT-227 packages.
The problem is that specs on the front page of a data sheet or the
1-line description in a catalog are often marketing claims rather than
realistic data. Manufacturers often have funny ideas about the
definition of "maximum"! The exaggeration factors change between parts,
so you can't directly compare them.
Ultimately, you need to evaluate the parts in YOUR application. Ok, it
does 700 watts with an infinite heatsink -- what's it do with YOUR
heatsink? It does 200 amps with zero lead length -- what's it do with
the lead length in a real circuit? It switches in 20 nsec at 25 deg.C --
what's it do when it's dissipating power and the chip is at 100 deg.C?
>> With a bunch of parallelled MOSFETs, one failure could make
>> the controller fail on. Not good. IGBTs mean less parts for
>> the same current. This is less points of failure.
> Couldn't the same happen with paralleled IGBTs?
Yes, of course. It turns out that MOSFETs are more expensive per watt,
but easier to parallel -- so manufacturers tend to build lots of
lower-power parts which designers are expected to parallel to get higher
power ratings. IGBTs don't share as well, so manufacturers tend to make
larger single chips.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Its refered to as the Magnus effect. You can buy dimpled tape and sheets
with this on it. Skin friction on autos has a small effect compared to
frontal
area because of the speeds. The single largest drag item on a car is
actually
the road - under body interface. That's the highest pressure and normally by
far the dirtiest place aerodynamically on a vehicle.
About the only effects you could expect to see with the dimple tape on a car
is having a nifty conversation starter and making the guy who sold you the
stuff a wee bit richer. ;-]
Dave
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: May 20, 2006 11:43 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Aerodynamics .. viktor's idea .. to reduce 'drag' to near
> zero
>
>
> Aerodynamic/fluid flow frictional forces are subjects of interesting
> research. Gases and fluids behave in similar fashions with Laminar
> fluid boundaries being formed between the surface of the medium and the
> object. Laminar flow being thought of as the idea condition.
>
> There is a school of thought were turbulent flow can be used to create a
> state of Laminar flow between the surface of an object and the resistive
> medium in which it travels. At one time there was some research in to
> the golf ball effect. Similar to Schaubergers' fish scale ideas,
> cushions of air held in the pockets of the golf ball dimples act to form
> a region of lower friction. I'm not sure what ever became of it.
> Creating surface diffusion, and density effects have been a curiosity at
> most, I don't know of anyone that has really done anything with these
> ideas other than think about them. Schauberger and Tesla proposed
> lighter than air ships around this train of thought ... should work for
> an automobile equally ... if it works at all.
>
> Sorta makes you want to take a ball peen hammer to the surface of a car
> to see if it'd lower its' cd value. I wonder how pissed my neighbor
> would be if I tested this out on his car first? <jokingly stated>
>
>
> peekay wrote:
> > in the company of experienced experts, it is not with great
> confidence that
> > one can suggest .. yet .. may i ?
> >
> > the drag is caused by the air molecules sticking to the surface of cars,
> > planes, etc ..
> >
> > viktor schauberger patented an idea to reduce drag to near zero
> .. which is
> > absurdly simple .. but works for a different application ..
> >
> > maybe an adaptation of that "theory" would see wierd rhombic thingys all
> > over the car front, to make the air flow "away" from the surfaces
> >
> > ..peekay
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lock Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 2:37 AM
> > Subject: RE: Aerodynamics
> >
> >
> >
> >> EVen though my Currie scooter struggles to reach 20kmh on a good day, I
> >> regularly see 40+kmh air as headwinds...
> >> So I am still interested in aero re a "next gen" scooter, even at these
> >> slower speeds!
> >> Tks
> >> Lock
> >> Toronto
> >>
> >>
> >> --- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> If the car isn't driven much over 50kmh (30mph) aero improvements
> >>> probably won't make much difference.
> >>> Don
> >>> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> >>>
> >>> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>> On
> >>> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> >>> Sent: May 19, 2006 8:26 AM
> >>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >>> Subject: Aerodynamics
> >>>
> >>> I'm sure every little bit helps. But what I think would tell me just
> >>> how
> >>> much aero resistance is costing, is to put a vehicle on a chassis
> >>> dyno and
> >>> use the onboard Emeter to see what the WH/mile is without wind as a
> >>> factor.
> >>> Then drive it on the road at the same speed. The difference would be
> >>> mostly
> >>> due to aero resistance. Then do the same thing with aero
> >>> "improvements".
> >>> This may generate more facts than lore
> >>> ;)
> >>>
> >>> Mike
> >>>
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> Do You Yahoo!?
> >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> >> http://mail.yahoo.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> No virus found in this incoming message.
> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >> Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.6.1/344 - Release Date:
> 19/05/2006
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Send instant messages to your online friends
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
peekay wrote:
> is the bifilar method of winding being used on any device,
> motor, etc ?
Sure. It's pretty common in transformers and motors. "Bifilar" is really
just pairing two wires, and winding them at the same time as if they
were a single wire.
Let's say you need to wind a coil that has to carry 20 amps. This takes
about #12 wire. But #12 is awfully stiff; it's hard to bend around the
corners. So, you pair two #15 wires. They have the same cross sectional
area, so carry the same current and fit in the same space -- but they
are a lot easier to wind!
Or, you need to make a transformer where the primary and secondary are
very tightly coupled (for high efficiency, for example). So you pair up
the primary and secondary wires, twisting them lightly together so they
can be handled like a single 'stranded' wire, and wind them both at
once.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #42: Team Profile: The Attack
Of the vehicles that come to the Tour de Sol, one that always turns heads is
the Attack from West Philadelphia High School. It looks fast, cool, and sexy.
It also is black, although the message is green. It was originally conceived
as a biodiesel hybrid, but the electrics are not working so it is here just as
a B100 car. Originally the front wheels were going to be driven by an electric
system and the rear by the biodiesel engine, but the electric system has been
removed.
Tyson Drummond gave me the story. "We had problems with the controller and the
batteries. It really wasn't looking right. So we took it out because it was
too time consuming.
And what is different on the biodiesel side? "We have bigger injectors, and we
had to change the fuel lines again. The ones we used last time were just like
regular fuel lines, and the biodiesel was eating through them. The ones we
have now are biodiesel rated.
"And we had to fix the axle again. Last year the shaft for the axle was too
short. We had the measurements wrong." So it was always under stress. "Then
we had made the correct measurements but the sleeve for the weld was weak. The
sleeve for the weld is stronger now."
The West Philly team created a great deal of buzz with their car and their
performance in last year's Tour de Sol. "The team was always confident about
their work but this year they are more confident because they know what to
expect." And the Philadelphia media has been paying attention. "They visited
our school several times."
Tyson has been member of the team for three years and now is a senior. "My
plans after school is to go to ATC (Automotive Training Center) in Warminster
PA. I want to continue working with alternative fuels."
But after he and the other seniors move on, the team will reshuffle. "The co-
captain will become captain and someone from the 10th grade will become junior
captain." Other team members at the Tour are Jesse Jones, Tyshem Lovett,
Joseph Pak, David Epps, Kosi Harmon, Bruce Harmon, Christopher Newell, Jeffrey
Daniels, and Calvin Cheeseboro.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2006 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2006 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Stef Komorowski
Classic Communications
508-698-6810
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> Reusing the NiFe cell's H2 might also be a sly way to get
> government/venture capitalist R&D money to study it as a hydrogen "fuel
> cell" :-)
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
There you go... power 2 cars with one recharge. <g>
The article wasn't clear, but some of these old cars had 100 miles of range,
albeit at a very slow pace. 8 hours of driving, on a single charge.
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TdS Report #43: Photos - Attack
Photographs from the Tour de Sol:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006/photos_019.html
Attack
This sharp looking car is the latest in a long line of Tour de Sol entries.
Definitely a car that turns heads.
The original plan was to have the front wheels driven by the electric half of
the hybrid. Maybe next year.
The B100 biodiesel engine drives the rear wheels.
On display at the Saratoga Automobile Museum's Spring Auto Show.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2006 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2006 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Stef Komorowski
Classic Communications
508-698-6810
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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I have been repairing, refurbishing designing and building power supplies for
over twenty years and in my experience the device data sheets are quite
accurate. What is often overlooked is what the maximum rating means. That is
the
voltage that should never, ever be exceeded. In a typical switching power
supply the actual voltage appearing across the drain to source or collector to
emitter is usually at least double that of the input or supply voltage. This
is
due to the "ring" or overshoot from the switching inductor at the falling
edge of a switch cycle. (Power supplies typically use fixed inductors making
the
ring easily predictable. Motor controllers are basically a power supply that
uses the motor as the inductor. DC motors exhibit wildly varying
inductance). Some design topologies, such as push-pull, applies X2 supply
volts across
each of the switching devices in addition to the ring voltage. Snubbers are
used to reduce ringing, but, the ringing cannot be eliminated. So, a switcher
using devices with an absolute max rating of 300 volts should not be operated
over 150 volts of supply. The vast majority of power supplies, that I have
worked on, that have a high fail rate are ones that are operated above half the
supply. I have refurbished many high fail rate power supplies and replaced the
OEM devices with ones of higher voltage ratings which completely eliminates
the failures. A power supply using devices rated at 300 volts max. should be
operated below 150 volts because that is the actual switching maximum. How
much below 150 volts depends on how much headroom (reliability) you want your
power supply to have. IGBTs are easier to find with high current AND high
voltage ratings - typically at least double that of MOSFETS. That is not to
say
MOSFETS are more fragile. As with anything, kept within their ratings, they
are
very rugged. Note: 144 volts supply offers very little headroom for a 300
volt max rated device. Especially since a 144 volt battery pack is
considerably
over 144 volts right after a good charge.
Just my two cents! (sorry about the overrun!)
Ken
In a message dated 5/20/2006 5:44:10 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Brad Baylor wrote:
> Does that hold true when comparing parts with the same package and
> similar ratings, as I've done with this comparison? The parts in the
> comparison are both SOT-227 packages.
The problem is that specs on the front page of a data sheet or the
1-line description in a catalog are often marketing claims rather than
realistic data. Manufacturers often have funny ideas about the
definition of "maximum"! The exaggeration factors change between parts,
so you can't directly compare them.
Ultimately, you need to evaluate the parts in YOUR application. Ok, it
does 700 watts with an infinite heatsink -- what's it do with YOUR
heatsink? It does 200 amps with zero lead length -- what's it do with
the lead length in a real circuit? It switches in 20 nsec at 25 deg.C --
what's it do when it's dissipating power and the chip is at 100 deg.C?
>> With a bunch of parallelled MOSFETs, one failure could make
>> the controller fail on. Not good. IGBTs mean less parts for
>> the same current. This is less points of failure.
> Couldn't the same happen with paralleled IGBTs?
Yes, of course. It turns out that MOSFETs are more expensive per watt,
but easier to parallel -- so manufacturers tend to build lots of
lower-power parts which designers are expected to parallel to get higher
power ratings. IGBTs don't share as well, so manufacturers tend to make
larger single chips.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Mark Grasser writes:
>
> Still sounds like something is not right. Who's regs are these? There should
> be current limiting and temp limiting on these, no?
Mark,
These were ancient Mk1 Rudman regulators. As I said, they were not drawing
too much current, so current limiting would not help. The problem was that
a raindrop got onto the board and caused a fault in the circuit controlling
the FET that was driving the load resistor, causing the load resistor to get
very hot. Temp limiting on the load resistor would've helped (if it could
turn the FET off). Enclosing the regulators in boxes would've helped too.
The current Mk2B regulators have many more features and may not be prone to
this problem. At least the Mk2B's in my car will never get rain on them as
they are inside the enclosed battery boxes.
Ralph
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I came across in the archives a little gem written by John
Wayland from 8 years ago.
His proposal? A Datsun minitruck could fit as many batteries
as a Toyota Xtracab, but weighs much less. In fact, he
estimated a converted Datsun minitruck with the same amount
of batteries as "Red Beastie" as weighing 1,000 pounds less
than Red Beastie.
So it could lend itself to much better performance than my
idea, maybe a 14-15 second 0-60 under the sane setup I
outlined for the Mazda B2000 due to more than 1,000 pounds
weight difference. The only catch is that it wouldn't be
able to seat 4 people.
Imagine an electric lowrider built on that concept, only
with far more aerodynamic modifications than Wayland
proposed(aeroshell, side skirts, grill block, ect.).
Throwing it in Uve's calculator got me 250 miles range at 60
mph needing roughly 230 wh/mile with 40 Trojan T145s,
assuming drag coefficient could be reduced to .25... That's
a lot of range!
==============================================
http://www.crest.org/discussion/ev/199802/msg00391.html
* To: Multiple recipients of list EV
* Subject: Super Long Range Minitruck
* From: John Wayland
* Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:21:06 +0100
* Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
* Sender: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Hello to All,
After I wrote 'Mid-sized, not Mini' this morning,
I went out to measure and compare the dimensions of the
three trucks I have here, the '86 Mazda B2000 Long Bed, the
Red Beastie '95 XtraCab Toyota, and the baby blue '68 Datsun
Minitruck (actually a '67 style that overlapped into the '68
model year by one month).
Both the Mazda and the Toyota are larger and heavier
than the little Datsun, and the cabs are much
bigger. The 7 ft. long bed of the Mazda is also wider
than the beds of the other trucks.
To my surprise, I found that the bed on the
Beastie was within an inch in all dimensions, of being
the same size as the bed on the '68 Datsun! This came as
quite a surprise to me, as the Toyota is so much bigger than
the Datsun, but most of the size difference is in the
XtraCab portion, and the resultant stretched
frame length. A stock '95 Toyota XtraCab truck is 800 lbs.
heavier than a stock 60's era Datsun.
Realizing that the larger and heavier Toyota didn't
have any more bed space then the little Datsun, it got me to
thinking about an idea. To be truthful, I didn't think there
would be any way to stuff 40 T-105s in a minitruck, the way
Dick and I did in the Beastie. But now, I can see that it is
very easy to do. So here's the idea:
Someone on the list needs to find a '66 through '67
Datsun minitruck. Then, you stuff 40 T-105s into it...36 in
the bed, and 4 under the hood (the Beastie has 34 in back
and 6 up front). Use an XP-1263 8" motor instead of the 9"
and save 40 lbs. in motor weight, but end up with a motor
that has more low end torque. Then, use a Zapi H2 regen
controller, to extend driving range even further. Use
lighter weight aluminum wheels, rather than the heavier
chromed steel wheels I currently have on the Beastie, and
save another 20 lbs. in weight. Fit these 15" rims with the
205/75R 15 Tiger Paw LRR tires that are standard equipment
on the Ranger and S10 EV trucks, to further increase range.
Do not use a 45 lb. 12 volt battery and twin DC to DC
converters as I have done in the Beastie, but only use one
Todd PC40LV, and save another 50 lbs. in weight. Next, lower
the truck, put on a front airdam and smooth out the
underside for minimum wind resistance.
The result will be a tough-looking, lowered electric
minitruck, with a curb weight of 4350 lbs. With its much
smaller frontal area, nearly 1000 lbs. less weight, a regen
controller, and LRR tires, and 56% battery weight, this
would make for one long range truck! With the Beastie being
capable of more than 100 miles at freeway speeds, and being
able to do close to 150 miles at reduced speeds, just think
what a truck like this could do!
What do you all think?
See Ya..........John Wayland
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I've been on this list almost two years now. And now I can show some positive
progress.
http://tinyurl.com/muvg3
Unfortunately, when I chose a color to paint the motor, I didn't know what
color Warfield used for
their motors. It is an ADC 9", but it was so rusted and corroded I sand blasted
all the paint off.
I thought the Ford red would be stand out nicely. Oh well.
Dave Cover
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Suppose you had a brand new shiny taperlock hub. You waited a long time to get
it and were anxious
to install your motor to build your EV. But there was a problem. The vendor
drilled the holes
wrong so you cannot bolt your clutch to the hub. Would there be a problem with
throwing out the
bolts and having the hub welded directly to the flywheel? Isn't this what
Gadget recommends. I was
planning on having the flywheel machined to lighten it, maybe I can find a
machine shop that could
do both procedures at the same time. It would probably be the fastest way to
fix the problem. I'm
not worried about the longevity of the flywheel, it won't be getting much abuse
anymore. And I'm
not interested in taking the time to send the hub back to have them do it
right. I just want to
get the car together.
Thanks
Dave Cover
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Does anyone know if Valence Technologies is delivering their 27-12XP
Rechargeable Lithium-Ion Batteries?
What is the cost per battery?
Has anyone tried them yet?
Pros / Cons?
Dave Roekle
951-278-2370
951-278-2886 Fax
AIM: daveroekle
Yahoo: daveroekle
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