EV Digest 5529
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Honda to Stop Making Insights
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) re: limiting current
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Joe Sixpack Metro NEV - first stumbling block
by Darin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: [NEDRA] NEDRA Power of DC Coming Up Sunday June 4
by "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Scirocco (Rabbit) suspension upgrade
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Joe Sixpack Metro NEV - first stumbling block
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Honda to Stop Making Insights
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: limiting current
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Honda Insight
by Puester <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Fwd: Re: OT: EV Copyright Infringer strikes again
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: OT: EV Copyright Infringer strikes again
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: OT: EV Copyright Infringer strikes again
by "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: OT: EV Copyright Infringer strikes again
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Starting again...AGM question
by michael bearden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Contactor Coil Control
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Lee's regs in action
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: Things I'd like to buy from EV suppliers (Update)
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: A123Systems li-ion technology
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Things I'd like to buy from EV suppliers (Update)
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: e-max arrived
by "Rodriguez, Jennifer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Honda Insight
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Things I'd like to buy from EV suppliers (Update)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Joe Sixpack Metro NEV - first stumbling block
by Darin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Things I'd like to buy from EV suppliers (Update)
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Honda to Stop Making Insights
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Joe Sixpack Metro NEV - first stumbling block
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: Joe Sixpack Metro NEV - first stumbling block
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
So... Honda is going to Kill it's Sporty Hybrid... I would kill for one.
Alien Green....Hybrid with some attitude.
For those who read my link (to one of my older stories) in another post
about my initial attempts to get the prized 'space alien green' Insight,
you now know how much I wanted that color. As it turned out, Honda
changed the three original color options...red, silver, and space alien
green (they called it Citrus Yellow, but it was far from yellow and more
green), to red, silver, and blue in 2001. In the US market, those three
colors were all that were offered all the way up to the 2006
model....red, silver, and blue. Honda dropped forever, the coolest of
cool colors for the Insight :-( The 2000 model year saw 1500+ cars made,
and rumor has it, that only 400 of those cars were space alien green
model.......sigh, I don't have one. Any Insight is a limited production
car, but to have the space alien green model is to really have a rare car.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger,
Hopefully I'll alleviate the confusion I caused,
I simply can't pull 430 Amps in the morning. 250 Amps maximum.
The car sits in the sun while on charge at work, so the batteries are
fairly warm.
The only immediate solution now is to calibrate the throttle.
Thanks Roger,
Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all -
Today we ran into our first big stumbling block on the Joe Sixpack
low-budget NEV/LSV Geo Metro-based project.
So far the progress consists of having obtained a used 36/48V forklift
and stripped its drive & pump motors, controller, contactors, potbox,
cables, etc. Next we bought two near-death Suzukiclone 2-dr hatchbacks
(one Metro, one Swift), and consolidated the good parts into the least
rusty car. I learned how to torch braze and fixed a few holes in the
floor, and my mechanic gave the work thumbs up and the car breezed
through inspection in ICE form last week.
The drivetrain has since been removed, transaxle separated from the ICE
... and we just discovered the 12 inch diameter forklift drive motor
that we were hoping to use is about half an inch too big: there won't be
enough clearance for the halfshaft axle that goes from the transaxle,
alongside the "back" of the motor, to the wheel.
Brainstorming, several options came to mind:
- Could we offset the drive motor from the transaxle input shaft and
connect the two with gears, a short chain, or cogged belt?
- Could we omit an axle and modify the differential for one-wheel drive?
(Likely revealing my ignorance of how diff's work here.)
- We *could* use one of the forklift's smaller (8 inch) hydraulic pump
motors, but they have internally splined shafts, which will require
replacement/modification to be useful.
We would prefer to use the main drive motor if possible, since it's
matched to the controller, having a field weakening circuit. Also it
was serviced a few years ago.
Any suggestions, comments and tall tales would be welcome!
- Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey John,
Thanks for the well wishes, but don't look at it like the "anti-EV vortex"
it appears to be. Look at it this way: I live a charmed life, and this is
really just a way for Mother Nature to make sure that Joule Injected makes
it into the 12s before White Zombie gets into the 11s. So after I make the
triumphant post to the EV and NEDRA lists, I expect to hear a "Me, too!"
post from you after you make it back to PIR!
;-)
After this soggy weekend for you, when might that be? Wednesday night drags?
According to weather.com, Sunday in Hagerstown should boast a high of 85
degrees, a 10% chance of precipitation, with "abundant sunshine." Part 2 of
Joule Injected's nationwide travels begins next Thursday night. See you all
at the races!
Matt Graham
300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
http://www.jouleinjected.com
Hobe Sound, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: John Wayland [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 11:26 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: [NEDRA] NEDRA Power of DC Coming Up Sunday June 4
Hello to All,
Good luck to all the EV drag racers next weekend at 'the Power of DC'!
May the anti-EV Vortex not descend on you!
See Ya...John Wayland
PS: It was 85-90 degrees in Portland (perfect racing weather) while we were
under the foreboding anti-EV Vortex in Illinois that canceled the
races...got home after 4300 miles of driving to monsoon type rains in
Portland, and it's forecast to be raining all this weekend again :-(
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On May 25, 2006, at 1:24 PM, Ken Albright wrote:
Is there a fairly simple and cheap way to upgrade the springs in my
Scirocco? Can I go to the junk yard and pull the springs and/or other
parts from some other model VW and bolt them on? I'm carrying 15 - 8v
lead acid.
If the Scirocco has the same front suspension as the '81 Rabbit (I know
some earlier Rabbits had front suspension differences that I know
nothing about) then its quite possible. I put 7 golf cart batteries in
the front of the Caddy (Rabbit Pickup) I used the springs from a second
generation Jetta GL with auto and AC. It put the front end back up
where I wanted it (around Rabbit GTi ride height.) I was told I could
use any of the second generation Golf (first ones called Golf in the
US) or second generation Jetta springs.
Paul G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Darin wrote:
> - Could we offset the drive motor from the transaxle input shaft and
> connect the two with gears, a short chain, or cogged belt?
Yes, but this could be fairly tricky to do right. It would certainly be
at odds with the low-budget nature of the project ;^>
> - Could we omit an axle and modify the differential for
> one-wheel drive?
I think this is the most promising option, and most in keeping with the
spirit of a low budget NEV type conversion.
All you need to do is unbolt the axle's CV joints from the flanges at
either end and remove the axle. Then, you will need to bolt something
to the flange at the tranny to lock it to the tranny housing so it can't
turn.
The way a differential works is that the output shaft (axle) that can
turn gets all the power.
The downsides to this approach are:
- you will likely have massive torque steer. This might not be a
problem in a NEV type vehicle, but with a 12" motor you might be in for
an upper body workout keeping the car going straight each time you get
on the throttle ;^>
- differentials usually aren't meant to spin continuously with large
speed differences between the two output shafts, and it may wear out
prematurely in this application. Prematurely might still be several
1000 miles, so it might not be an issue.
> - We *could* use one of the forklift's smaller (8 inch)
> hydraulic pump motors, but they have internally splined
> shafts, which will require replacement/modification to
> be useful.
Ultimately this is probably the best option. An 8" motor is plenty
adequate for this size vehicle, especially given your NEV/LSV type
goals.
If the 8" and 12" motors have similar mounting bolt patterns it could be
an easy swap to replace the 12" with the 8" later and reinstall the axle
once you have a chance to sort out the shaft issue.
As long as the pump motor has a drive end bearing (not a floating
shaft), then it might not be too complicated or expensive to get the
drive issue sorted. The internal spline is going to be a standard one,
and you may be able to purchase an appropriately splined stub shaft off
the shelf, or if you have the pump that mated to the motor, you might be
able to scavenge the required parts from it. Or, contact Jim Husted and
see about having him install a new shaft into the armature.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good for You...
Keep your darn hands off my Car's underware...
It's so Eco Geek.. that it just beggs for some ...er...enhancements....
A Stack of Lions and a 50Kw ImH enhancemnt comes to mind. Let them point..
that's the point.!
I just got a post from a Old friend that has a Insight ,he had a Corvette
driver ask him what he did to make it that fast. It seams the Vette Guy had
to stir the gear box to reel One in durring a 30 to 60mph
Squirt up a steep hill.
Not that the Vette guy couldn't catch him, it's he had to more than try.
That is what we call the EV grin.. leaves the line promptly.. then Well we
could use more... Always more..
So... I would love to have a in your Face Hybrid..
It may happen sooner that I ever expected and be damn sure it's going to be
a Plug one also.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: Honda to Stop Making Insights
> You beat me to it, John.
>
> The reason that dog didn't hunt is because it was so butt-ugly that no
> one but a bleary-eyed card carrying tree hugger could stand to be seen
> near one.
>
> There have been other cars that when they came to market, pegged my
> hideous styling meter but they eventually sorta grew on me. The Ford
> Taurus is an example. The Honda Element is another. The Insight
> joins the Pontiac Aztec as a car that just keeps getting uglier and
> uglier as time goes by. Everytime I see an Insight on the road, I
> want to go over and pull up its pants. Or put splints on its broken
> and drooping wings.
>
> I'd walk before I'd drive one of those.
>
> John
>
> On Thu, 25 May 2006 20:13:01 -0400, John Norton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >On Thu, 25 May 2006 19:36, Tom Shay wrote:
> >> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12860428/
> >>
> >> The article said that Honda sold only 666 Insights in 2005. I wonder
> >> why sales were so low? Sales of this car ought to be brisk with
> >> gasoline prices so high and the widespead revulsion of SUVs and
> >> other gas guzzlers. Were sales so low because customers didn't
> >> want Insights or did Honda Motor Company only produce a few
> >> hundred per year?
> >
> >You should try living in the same world as everyone else. The supposed
> >widespread revulsion at SUVs and other gas guzzlers just isn't that
> >widespread.
> >
> >Gas went up over $3 with hardly a hitch in the sales of SUV's and other
> >high powered V8 vehicles. Also in Europe, where gas is double the price
> >in the US, sales of SUV's are increasing.
> >
> >I would bet that had gas prices continued up you would have seen a
> >change in buying, but prices have peaked, levelling and even dropping.
> >And Tahoes are selling like hotcakes.
> >
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ben wrote:
> I simply can't pull 430 Amps in the morning. 250 Amps maximum.
If you don't mind my asking:
What does the pack sag to in the morning at 250A?
What does the warm pack sag to at 250A in the afternoon?
> The only immediate solution now is to calibrate the throttle.
Good luck! Let us know how things change once you've got WOT.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:49 PM 5/25/2006, you wrote:
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12860428/
>
> The article said that Honda sold only 666 Insights in 2005. I wonder
> why sales were so low? Sales of this car ought to be brisk with
> gasoline prices so high and the widespead revulsion of SUVs and
> other gas guzzlers. Were sales so low because customers didn't
> want Insights or did Honda Motor Company only produce a few
> hundred per year?
When I had my Honda Accord ICE in for regular service last week I asked
a salesperson about the Insight.
He said: "Oh, we don't stock those, they're special order only. Whgat
else can I show you?" End of discussion.
I have no idea if that's SOP for all dealerships or just mine, but
that's NO WAY to drum up interest or sell a car!
gloria p
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But that's the part that bugs me the most. This guy is making money
off others work and knowledge,
He collected data that is available for free and is selling it for a
small fee. He is being paid for his research ability, not for the data
itself.
This is no different than the all of other people who collect
information from free sources and sell "info packs" on ebay, in the free
weekly papers, and so forth. Not everyone can find the free sources, but
everyone seems to be able to find ebay and their weekly paper newsstand.
Again, you are not paying a fee for the data, you are paying a fee for
the research.
It's like paying $5 for a disk full of shareware. Sure you can download
it elsewhere, but the original source may be difficult for some people
to find. Whoever is selling the disk has done the research and has
packaged the data for you.
There are plenty of REAL issues and REAL battles to be fought.
Complaining about non-issues like this one is just foolish and a waste
of time, in my opinion.
-Ken Trough
V is for Voltage
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 26 May 2006 12:36:56 -0400, "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
>IMO, this freedom encourages people to develop and build EVs. Yes, somebody
>is making a little money widening the distribution of your plans. I'll
>admit it's irksome and ethically questionable; I think he should be giving
>them away, as you did. Pretty crass to get something for free and then sell
>it (though now that I think about it, that's kind of a second cousin of the
>way we exploit natural resources such as oil, eh? ;-)
>It's too late for this publication, IMO, but next time you put something up
>on the web you might add a license of sorts, indicating that people can use
>this information and distribute it freely, but not charge money for it. I
>suggest looking at the GNU General Publc License for inspiration :
One can make the argument that, at the prices reported, the guy IS
giving away the material and is charging for media, repro and
distribution costs - just like most versions of GNU licenses do.
Yet another angle to the view that this is a non-issue, not worth
getting cranked up over.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"The seller must be the owner of the underlying intellectual property, or
authorized to distribute it by the intellectual property owner."
That's EBay's policy. Complain to them and get the guy banned.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can get him banned if you want, you can ask for a royalty, or you
can let him slide. It's entirely your right.
The only thing nasty here is where he goes out of his way to say he's
the copyright holder. Other than that he's done no great offense on you
that I can see.
Tell you what. Contact the guy, assert that you are the original
copyright holder and he must cease and desist such claims, but say he
can reprint your materials for a nominal fee IF all auctions indicate
that the material comes from your website at http://www. .... Reserve
the right to modify or cancel this agreement at any time. Maybe that'll
kill his sales, maybe people just want a printed booklet that bad. He's
probably tired of making duplicate eBay accounts so maybe he'll try the
legal option. Be interesting to see.
Danny
Neon John wrote:
One can make the argument that, at the prices reported, the guy IS
giving away the material and is charging for media, repro and
distribution costs - just like most versions of GNU licenses do.
Yet another angle to the view that this is a non-issue, not worth
getting cranked up over.
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Arrghhh! The trials of the EV'er...I finally put WATTABMR on the
Tradin'Post last week, 30 months after the accident that ended its EV
life...I had been collecting Bradleys and Bradley parts with the
intention of using all the EV stuff from the BMW to make what I called
"an electric Porsche eater". But then I had the good fortune to call
Brian Hall just when he started thinking about selling the electric
Porsche, so I sold off all of the Bradley stuff, and Cor was going to
take WATTABMR to make another 300 series electric BMW. I had the
pleasure of driving a real conversation starter (which lived up to its
license plate-QUICKEV!) for over a year, until the unfortunate Porsche
Flambe that kicked off Mother's Day in our country neighborhood. (One of
my good ole boy neighbors rolled in with his big diesel pick-up in the
afternoon, looked at the mess, and said, "Michael, I'm hurt that you
would have a Barbecue and not invite me...") Now, I still have the
Gogomobil, but it is more like a really cute EV neighborhood car than
what I like driving (and EV-angelizing with=it looks like clowns should
jump out when it stops), so I am going South of SF tomorrow to look at a
lien sale BMW, and am looking at building another heavier (but still
quick) EV.
All of that is to lead up to the question: What has happened with Group
31 AGMs while I have been away from the list working my way through my
stock of 33 Optima YTs? When I first designed WATTTABMR, I planned on
using the Optima Grp 31 that was supposed to be out that year...then the
Defense Dept. bought the whole output of the production, and I ended up
getting a bunch of the Delphi 8v AGMs that were removed from the first
generation of EV Rangers by Ford.
24 of those made a 192v pack that weighed right at a thousand pounds,
and gave good Zip and range with excellent balance front to back. I got
nearly 20 months of service out of Delphis (by constantly changing out
the weakest batteries) with the EV as my go to work car. As the Delphis
began to fail, there were no more to be found (Right, Lawrence?) so I
bought a project down in Santa Cruz to get the 33 new Optimas that he had.
32 of them as a buddy-pair pack with the 600 amp T-Rex turned my
formerly peppy EV into a lead sled...great range, but not too quick. I
changed to the 1K T-Rex, which helped, but what I needed was a 60 pound
AGM, not an 86 pound (2 YT's). T-boning the pick-up that turned left in
front of me ended that round of EV grinning...and now the Porsche is
gone. The EV is dead, Long Live the EV!! Which means here I am again,
configuring another EV, which is the question that lead to this long
story. Is anything out there now in the 60 pound/Group 31 size that
people are using for street EVs? It is the only thing that I can see
making a configuration like this one work well enough to be fun to
drive, and have decent range.
Thanks, EV Amigos-I would never have been able to start building and
driving EVs without your experience, knowledge, and willingness to share
what works.
Michael B.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A 5v reg is only 2 caps and the reg. Much better than a zener diode.
Danny
David Brandt wrote:
I guess if there's an "economizer" circuit in there,
isn't that circuit doing PWM itself so this 5v input only draws
neglible current?"
That's exactly it. The contactor 'requires' an economizer (PWM
circuit) on it's coil (presumably because the coil isn't beefy enough
to withstand a continuous 12V). The economizer has leads for power and
coil connections, but also a logic control input. I'm looking to
supply 5V to the logic input, preferably without added complexity
beyond what is absolutely necessary.
I'll likely be able to experiment with control techniques this weekend,
hopefully without vaporizing an economizer. First, though, I have a
playground to put back together.
David Brandt
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris, thanks for the parts and info.
For a 6 V battery, I had a question regarding Lee's wiring description.
"I suggested the same parts (two 6.2v zener diodes), but with *two* #PR2
lamps. Each lamp has a zener in series. This makes two parallel paths, so
it shunts twice the current "
Would that be like this?
battery + -----|<----lightbulb-----|<----- - battery
L_lightbulb_J
For 6 V trojan would the zener diode be:
1) Two 6.2V in series w. 2 lightbulbs in parallel (as above or corrected)
2) Two 6.8 V in series w. 2 lightbulbs in parallel
3) Two 6.2V in parallel with lightbulb in series for each diode (basically
running this twice [battery+ -----|<----lightbulb-----|<----- - battery]
4) Two 6.8V in parallel with lightbulb in series for each diode
5) Two 3.3 V, 3.6V, 3.7V in seies with 1 lightbulb in series
+ -----|<----lightbulb-----|<----- - battery
Which voltage?
Thanks, Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Evan Tuer wrote:
It's just not the same situation as the budding PC industry (or C64
industry or whatever). There you had common hardware and a potential
userbase in the thousands at least. A more realistic comparison would
be if everyone had built their own computers by hand, all with
slightly different hardware architectures and memory layouts, even if
using common components and doing the same job.
That was the early budding PC (maybe some would call it a pre-PC)
industry. Has everyone forgotten the period *before* the release of the
C64 and Apple II? There was no common hardware, and most people *did*
build their own computers by hand, typically using basic "kits" that
provided a bare minimum and adding custom circuits for any real
functionality. This was before the software industry, and if you made
it, you programmed it.
My point is that the "EV Industry" is still quite infantile, but it does
already parallel the early progress of the computer industry in more
then a few ways. You just have to go back to when computers were still
mostly a homebrew deal.
~ Peanut Gallery ~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peri,
impossible to send you a message, your email box have rejected last one too
so i post here, i apologize to all for inconvenience.
You can write me here: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>
bonsoir,
Je ne vous ai pas oublié mais mon email de réponse m'est revenue avec un
message d'erreur.
J'habite justement à coté de Besançon, à 10 minutes en voiture, je serais
ravi de vous rencontrer et de vous présenter mes véhicules électriques.
>>>>
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evdl" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 8:21 PM
Subject: A123Systems li-ion technology
> After a number of tries, I finally was able to talk to someone in their
> Sales and Applications group (name withheld on purpose). They are
currently
> working hard to fulfill their agreement with Black & Decker and I feel
> honored to have received a little time with them. I have a few more
numbers
> than are on their website and got permission to publish those here.
>
> Form factor: 26650
> nominal voltage: 3.35v
> max voltage 3.6v
> capacity: 2.2ah
> internal resistance 10-12mohm
> power density at 5 sec pulse: 3500w/kg
> energy density: 100wh/kg
> weight: 70g/cell
>
> Cells may be available to customers other than Black & Decker (e.g. evdl
> members) in mid 2006 but no pricing info is available yet. They will be
> adding a lot more info to their website in the mean time, pending, I
think,
> making sure their proprietary information is properly protected. The
cells
> will need a BMS and I didn't get any assurance as to whether whatever
Black
> & Decker will use would be useful or available to us.
>
> -- Peri Hartman
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
Far from it. The computer industry has been HUGE from the get go. Ever
hear of IBM? Sperry? Control Data? Far cry from being a small cottage
industry.
You missed the point entirely. This is a hobby mailing list and a hobby
industry. There are few suppliers, probably making only making ends meet.
If your supplier does not have a part, rather than complain about it,
research it, maybe build it yourself!
Don
The EV industry isn't huge? I don't think us hobbyists are the main
source of revenue for Trojan Batteries...
First, PCs did exist before IBM, Commodore, and Apple. Even when
*complete* kits were finally introduced (with a packaged OS even -
CP/M), the numbers weren't that big at first. And there is no complete
kit for an EV yet. Just subsystem kits at best.
And there *are* modern day equivalents to Sperry, as they made the
computer version of forklifts (Sperry Univac), not PCs. The only
consumer division was electric typewriters & razors (Sperry Remington).
Same deal with CDC. There is currently a HUGE industry for EVs, in the
hundreds of thousands - where do you think we scavenge all these parts
we use? From forklifts (CDC 160A) to freight engines (Univac 90/60, IBM
System 360)... just not automobiles (C64?). The comparison between
industries is ringing truer and truer in my ears as I digress.
EVs *automobiles* aren't even to the point of Altairs yet. There is
still a tremendous distance to go before we get to the equivalent point
of when IBM entered the PC arena. That would be when GM launches the EV2.
~ Peanut Gallery ~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone heard anything lately about the Z20 scooter, a very similar
product to the e-max, from www.evtamerica.com? Is it ever coming out?
Jenn
-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron NMLUG-EV [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 5:44 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: e-max arrived
The e-max scooter finally arrived in NM.
I test rode both the classic 1500W version
and the 'Sport' 2000W version.
The Sport was de-regulated, but the 1500W was
regulated.
Real world performance, the Sport was rather peppy.
Not too fast off the like, but peak power
seemed to occur around 30-40 km/h. Realistic
top speed was around 35mph (60 km/h). It got there
in 10-15 seconds or so. It is a bit slow up to
10 or 15 mph, then its in the sweet spot up to around
25mph, then acceleration starts to slow a bit.
Gentle controls. No regen.
Charger appears to be around 500W, and non-integrated.
But since it is about 3"x6"x8", you can carry it
in the cargo area.
The regulated 1500W version was quite slow.
Slower than the eGo, I'd say. Although they
claim it was regulated to 28mph, it seemed to
stop around 25mph, even downhill. The eGo would
surely beat it up to 23mph, by a lot.
I'll have to see if they have a current limit on
the regulated mode. Hopefully they will de-regulate it
and let me try again.
They are asking $2400 for the 1500W version, and
$3000 for the 2000W. Prices on the WWW site were
$1950 and $2750 respectively. They are claiming
shipping and handling fees. Are other dealers
charging similar handling?
They do look promising, and I sure hope they sell a
lot of them. Especially if more production might
reduce the price a bit.
aaron
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I think it depends on the dealer, I heard of one dealer
that held on to a green 2000 for 2 or 3 years, and then
let it go for nearly half price, they must have not
wanted to or much less tried to sell the poor thing?
My dealer always seems to have one or two on the lot,
I picked up mine used with two new ones on the lot.
There's always one when I go in for an oil change.
There's a Blue 2006 CVT sitting under a tent there now.
I say the Fit and it's no Insight replacement for sure.
L8r
Ryan
Puester wrote:
> At 02:49 PM 5/25/2006, you wrote:
>
>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12860428/
>>
>> The article said that Honda sold only 666 Insights in 2005. I wonder
>> why sales were so low? Sales of this car ought to be brisk with
>> gasoline prices so high and the widespead revulsion of SUVs and
>> other gas guzzlers. Were sales so low because customers didn't
>> want Insights or did Honda Motor Company only produce a few
>> hundred per year?
>
>
> When I had my Honda Accord ICE in for regular service last week I asked
> a salesperson about the Insight.
>
> He said: "Oh, we don't stock those, they're special order only. Whgat
> else can I show you?" End of discussion.
>
> I have no idea if that's SOP for all dealerships or just mine, but
> that's NO WAY to drum up interest or sell a car!
>
> gloria p
>
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Once again you have completely missed the point. The original poster was
complaining about suppliers not meeting his needs. Why? Because there are
only a few suppliers to the EV HOBBY industry. These are mom-and-pop shops.
If the EV HOBBY industry was huge as you say, he would not have such a
problem.
So, what does a person do? Rather than complain, argue or debate about it -
build it yourself! Maybe get together with other hobbyists to build the
component. Contact a machine shop or a motor shop to have something built.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Stefan T. Peters
Sent: May 26, 2006 3:00 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Things I'd like to buy from EV suppliers (Update)
Don Cameron wrote:
> Far from it. The computer industry has been HUGE from the get go.
> Ever hear of IBM? Sperry? Control Data? Far cry from being a small
> cottage industry.
>
> You missed the point entirely. This is a hobby mailing list and a
> hobby industry. There are few suppliers, probably making only making ends
meet.
> If your supplier does not have a part, rather than complain about it,
> research it, maybe build it yourself!
>
>
> Don
>
>
The EV industry isn't huge? I don't think us hobbyists are the main source
of revenue for Trojan Batteries...
First, PCs did exist before IBM, Commodore, and Apple. Even when
*complete* kits were finally introduced (with a packaged OS even - CP/M),
the numbers weren't that big at first. And there is no complete kit for an
EV yet. Just subsystem kits at best.
And there *are* modern day equivalents to Sperry, as they made the computer
version of forklifts (Sperry Univac), not PCs. The only consumer division
was electric typewriters & razors (Sperry Remington).
Same deal with CDC. There is currently a HUGE industry for EVs, in the
hundreds of thousands - where do you think we scavenge all these parts we
use? From forklifts (CDC 160A) to freight engines (Univac 90/60, IBM System
360)... just not automobiles (C64?). The comparison between industries is
ringing truer and truer in my ears as I digress.
EVs *automobiles* aren't even to the point of Altairs yet. There is still a
tremendous distance to go before we get to the equivalent point of when IBM
entered the PC arena. That would be when GM launches the EV2.
~ Peanut Gallery ~
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Roger Stockton wrote:
> [...offset the drive motor from the transaxle input shaft...]
Yes, but this could be fairly tricky to do right. It would certainly be
at odds with the low-budget nature of the project ;^>
Thanks for the comments - and for understanding one of the main goals of
the project: low cost (to date we're at just under $600 CDN :^D )
All you need to do is unbolt the axle's CV joints from the flanges at
either end and remove the axle. Then, you will need to bolt something
to the flange at the tranny to lock it to the tranny housing so it can't
turn.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but would locking down one axle cause the
"free" axle to rotate at 2x the speed it would otherwise turn? (I
vaguely recall a warning for drivers stuck in snow - the danger being
that if you madly spin a wheel, that wheel is actually going 2x the
speed shown on the speedometer, with attendant risks for tire and other
mechanical damage.)
The downsides to this approach are:
- you will likely have massive torque steer. This might not be a
problem in a NEV type vehicle, but with a 12" motor you might be in for
an upper body workout keeping the car going straight each time you get
on the throttle ;^>
Yes, I was wondering about that! With a 36 or 48V system, maybe it
won't be insurmountable. I wonder if it will be an issue under power at
all times, or only when accelerating. I don't think I want to be
fighting "weather helm", like a sailboat, just trying to go in a
straight line.
Ultimately this is probably the best option. An 8" motor is plenty
adequate for this size vehicle, especially given your NEV/LSV type
goals.
If the 8" and 12" motors have similar mounting bolt patterns it could be
an easy swap to replace the 12" with the 8" later and reinstall the axle
once you have a chance to sort out the shaft issue.
Unfortunately, they have different bolt patterns. Thanks for the advice
about checking the drive end bearing - I wasn't aware of that. And,
yes, we kept the pumps too, just in case we needed to scavenge a shaft.
Unfortunately, the shaft is not very beefy (1/2 inch dia.), and I
simply am not sure whether a 1/2 inch shaft is up to the task at hand.
Thanks again -
Darin
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Don Cameron wrote:
Once again you have completely missed the point. The original poster was
complaining about suppliers not meeting his needs. Why? Because there are
only a few suppliers to the EV HOBBY industry. These are mom-and-pop shops.
I was making a new (yet related) point. I think perhaps I should've
added "-OT" to the subject line.
If the EV HOBBY industry was huge as you say, he would not have such a
problem.
The EV "automobile" industry isn't even here yet. The EV industry is
huge. As in Electric Vehicles. The automobile is only one type of vehicle.
So, what does a person do? Rather than complain, argue or debate about it -
build it yourself! Maybe get together with other hobbyists to build the
component. Contact a machine shop or a motor shop to have something built.
I completely agree, I was just pointing out how the EV industry has many
comparable points to the computer industry if you properly adjust the
timelines. And that there are many lessons that can be taken from
computer (specifically PC) history in order to get it where this person
would like it to be.
~ Peanut Gallery ~
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Turbocharge? How about electrocharged? Maybe John or one of you other
insight owners can answer this:
Can we put a second IMA motor between the tranny and IMA?
I was looking at cut-away views and it looks like the IMA rotor bolts to
the crank and provides a crank pattern to mount the flywheel and
clutch. Is there room for the motor to move forward(ok towards the
passenger side) the 2.1 inches or so needed to add this stack?
I would think adding a complete seperate IMA system and pack would
complete the package.
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At 01:30 PM 26/05/06 -0400, you wrote:
Hi all -
Today we ran into our first big stumbling block on the Joe Sixpack
low-budget NEV/LSV Geo Metro-based project.
So far the progress consists of having obtained a used 36/48V forklift and
stripped
Is this (like my Cat forklift) a 36V control system by tapping the
batteries, with 48V applied to the motor? If so you may be able to up the
motor volts, keep the 36V on the control circuit...
<snip>discovered the 12 inch diameter forklift drive motor that we were
hoping to use is about half an inch too big: there won't be enough
clearance for the halfshaft axle that goes from the transaxle, alongside
the "back" of the motor, to the wheel.
Brainstorming, several options came to mind:
- Could we offset the drive motor from the transaxle input shaft and
connect the two with gears, a short chain, or cogged belt?
Richard Bebbington did something similar to this for his Mini - but went
straight to the transaxle output gear, no gear shift.
- Could we omit an axle and modify the differential for one-wheel
drive? (Likely revealing my ignorance of how diff's work here.)
Could, but if you lock off one axle, the diff pinion gears will be going
"flat out" instead of just moving with the turns - I think the diff life
would be very short, but I know that at lower power this method has been
used for windmill waterpumps and all sorts of DIY agricultural
contraptions. It may be worth doing in order to get on the road - if you
have something strong enough to lock off the non-drive side to.
- We *could* use one of the forklift's smaller (8 inch) hydraulic pump
motors, but they have internally splined shafts, which will require
replacement/modification to be useful.
You have several options with the smaller motor - a new shaft, a new end
plate to take a bigger bearing and have a shaft extension put on the
outside of the shaft, a splined shaft stub (if you have enough length to
put another bearing in between the motor and transaxle, you can put a
carrier bearing for the stub axle). Perhaps as part of the adaptor plate
may not push the cost up too much.
We would prefer to use the main drive motor if possible, since it's
matched to the controller, having a field weakening circuit. Also it was
serviced a few years ago.
That's a plus (several, actually).
Any suggestions, comments and tall tales would be welcome!
Is there another transaxle from a similar model that has greater offset? I
have been going through (in conjunction with my mechanic) putting a
Daihatsu Charade ICE motor and transaxle into my Daihatsu Mira - the drive
shafts line up and go straight in. However, there are significant
differences in the gearboxes requiring subframe modifications (we initially
looked at putting just the Charade gearbox in, as $1000Aus for a gearbox
rebuild for the Mira box is a bit rude) and I think the centeline offset
may be a bit greater. In part this is a trial run (with a
past-its'-use-by-date Mira) for a Mira EV.
- Darin
Regards
[Technik] James
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Darin wrote:
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but would locking down one axle cause the
> "free" axle to rotate at 2x the speed it would otherwise turn?
Yes, this is true. Your main concern here would be that the speedo
might read 1/2 the actual speed and the odometer would accumulate 1/2
the actual distance travelled. I think these are lesser concerns than
how long the diff will last with the output shafts turning at such
different speeds.
With the low speed nature of the project, the diff life might be
acceptable anyway.
> I wonder if it will be an issue under power at all times,
> or only when accelerating. I don't think I want to be
> fighting "weather helm", like a sailboat, just trying to
> go in a straight line.
I suspect it will not be (much of) an issue at steady state, but I don't
know that you will know for sure until you try it.
> Unfortunately, the shaft is not very beefy (1/2 inch dia.), and I
> simply am not sure whether a 1/2 inch shaft is up to the task at hand.
The input shaft to the tranny is not significantly larger than this (if
at all once it necks down after the splines), so while 1/2" seems
scarily small, it may in fact be just fine. Keep skinny tires on the
car, and/or a stock clutch and one or the other of these ought to slip
and limit the load on the shaft before it reaches its breaking point!
;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
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