EV Digest 5531
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Starting again...AGM question
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: clutch or clutchless
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: e-max arrived
by Aaron NMLUG-EV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Things I'd like to buy from EV suppliers (Update)
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: clutch or clutchless
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Things I'd like to buy from EV suppliers (Update)
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Things I'd like to buy from EV suppliers (Update)
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Electravan sold by word of EVlist
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Starting again...AGM question
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) high power system available (was Re: Things I'd like to buy from EV
suppliers (Update))
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Joe Sixpack Metro NEV - first stumbling block
by Darin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Things I'd like to buy from EV suppliers (Update)
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: clutch or clutchless
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: clutch or clutchless
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Starting again...AGM question, NEXT!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: clutch or clutchless
by "Tom Carpenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Electravan sold by word of EVlist
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Lee's regs in action
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Hi voltage DC-DC problem
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Lee's regs in action
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Hi voltage DC-DC problem
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: clutch or clutchless
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Lee's regs in action
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Joe Sixpack Metro NEV - first stumbling block
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
$85!!?
Those are as cheap as Trojans!
A 156V pack would weigh 950 pounds and deliver 12480 Wh at
the 1 hour rate. A highly efficient 130 wh/mile EV would get
100 miles range! A more realistic 200 wh/mile small EV would
get 60 miles range.
Do you know how well they hold up with routine high
discharge rates, like around 700+ amps? I know they're rated
at 720 CCA, which is pretty good.
Anything on cycle life?
Their published specs are here:
http://www.cetsolar.com/PDF/UB121100 (30H.pdf
If the manufacturer's specs are accurate, a Blue Meanie
style EV with high range could be built for roughly
$7,000-8,000, and have similar performance that the car is
reknown for. That would kick ass! I'd gladly build my
Triumph around a platform like that if the battery can take
the abuse.
Blue Meanie's 156V of Optimas allow what? 125 kW from the
battery side cranking out 1,000 amps and sagging to 9.6V?
At .004 ohms, these UB121100 batteries in theory would allow
98 kW assuming 13.6V coming off a full charge and limit to
700 amps? If they can take 1,000 amps regularly, power can
be upped to the level of the Optimas.
That would give comparable performance to Blue Meanie in a
car of similar weight.
Imagine a 2,400 pound conversion with the smallest Zilla
available, 9" WarP motor, and 156V pack of these batteries.
$7,000-8,000 conversion, with regs and PFC charger. 0-60 mph
about 6 seconds, top speed around 120 mph... And in a car
with aerodynamic modifications to high hell for 130 wh/mile
at 60 mph, 100 miles range to full discharge. That would
fucking rule!
So, are these batteries up to providing high power? What
about cycle life?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some cars shift better that others with out the clutch but I would say all
shift better not using the clutch when electric . I've felt the tranny's
synchronizer speed up the motor , when down shifting ( just to see if it
would) in some cars , which I don't think would happen with a gas engine.
Best car I remember for no clutch shifting was the Honda prelude and the
worst was a VW , . Having a air condustioner hooked to the motor's tail
shift and trunning it on when shifting will help slow the motor down to line
up the gears , other wise you do have to wait for the free spinning motor to
slow down and this makes the shift take awhile .
A zilla 1k/ 9" motor is I believe , right on the edge of what most clutches
can take . I bought a racing clutch for my go fast truck and it slipped with
my 2k , I'm now clutchless and the only thing slipping is the tires .
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Shabino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 3:27 AM
Subject: clutch or clutchless
The joe sixpack car thread reminded me about a Doug Smiths fiero at
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/143. He is using a clutchless design in
his car. Unfortunaly it does not go on to state if he actualy shifts when
rolling or if its a one gear wonder once it gets going.
Has anyone else tried a no clutch desing with rolling shifts??
In theory this has a chance of working. Step off the gas then shift...
But, The extra spinning mass of the electric motor might do "bad
things(tm)" to the syncros.
thoughts?
Later,
Wire
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 2006-05-26 at 14:59 -0700, Rodriguez, Jennifer wrote:
> Has anyone heard anything lately about the Z20 scooter, a very similar
> product to the e-max, from www.evtamerica.com? Is it ever coming out?
They still do not use the word "brushless" to describe
the hub-motor. Is it still brushed?
Brushes and sealed-hub motor may need some extra maintenance.
MSRP is certainly cheaper than the e-Max sport
which (might) have similar power.
They MIGHT claim max speed of 45mph for the e-Max sport,
but in the one I tried, real world performance with
200lb rider, it stopped accelerating around 35mph.
aaron
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had intended to reply on this topic when it first came up, but I
have let it get away a bit. Reading back I see Michaela asked for
sources for a number of EV items, and most I agree should be
available. There may be a small market here for someone who has the
talent and interest to fill it.
Michaela asked for:
1. Some pre-configured a/c compressors or complete systems (i.e.
like an aftermarket vintage air system, modified for ev use).
The A/C solution Solectria used with the small PM motor
drive driving a small compressor though a toothed belt seems like
something that actually might be duplicated with a kit. All that
would need to be unique to each installation would be mounting
brackets to fit it to you EV and custom hoses to couple it to the
existing A/C system. Since custom hoses can be fabricated by many
auto parts stores, this seems like something that would not be that
hard to make available as a partial kit type product.
2. A regen system that would come with a small generator or modified
alternator and all the supplies I would need to hook up to the
auxiliary shaft of my motor.
Rod Wilde and Solar Car Corp both used a setup with a custom
rewound to pack voltage heavy truck alternator belt driven from the
tailshaft of the drive motor. Solar drove it through a A/C style
electric clutch, I am not sure about Rod's. While driving, the
clutch was disengaged and the alternator was un powered so no added
drag was created. When you stepped on the brake pedal the clutch
would engage and the alternator field would be powered. The output
of the alternator would be fed to the battery pack. One of the last
times Rod mentioned it on the EVDL someone asked if it wasn't
something that could be made available by custom order. This also
sounds like another product opportunity for someone to hook up with a
local alternator rebuilding shop and make these up to order. A
handful of custom brackets to fit common EV motors would cover most users.
3. A range extending generator directly generating the dc juice in a
way that I would only have to hook it up to my batteries.
Again, we have had folks so this. Perhaps all we need is
someone who has to create a "kit" that is really not much more than a
shopping list and assembly instructions. Add prefab brackets made by
say a local welding shop, the fasteners and connectors, and instant
kit. Not quite a turn key drop in solution, but still much simpler
than creating the whole thing from scratch.
4. A (configurable) converter that would allow me to use my dash
board instruments i.e. for state of charge.
This is one I mentioned a couple of times. I thought
perhaps an interface could be created to read the output from an
E-meter serial port and convert the bar count, 0-6, into a signal to
drive the stock fuel gauge. I don't really know as this would be
enough resolution though. Victor has mentioned a alternative to the
E-meter that he sells or will be selling that includes the ability to
drive the stock fuel gauge. For those with E-meters, has anyone
looked into creating a circuit to do this?
All of these ideas sound reasonable and might make a nice project to
generate some money for a qualified EVer, though they would require
some up front investment and development. Bringing any of them to
the limited market of EVs is not going to make anyone rich, but over
time it should probably be enough to do better than break even.
I know it is a poor comparison, but when I wanted to mark my Civic
conversion as an electric car in an attractive manner, I found no one
offered a label or logo to do this. I searched the Internet and
found a company that could make such a label. The problem was they
had a minimum order of 500 units, plus a fee to create the initial
molds. I took a chance, had them make up the mold, and bought 500
units. I have been selling them through the 'Net and through several
of the EV parts suppliers for about 6 years now. I only average
about 10-20 per month, but they sell well enough that I have had to
reorder them several times.
It seems to me that most of these needs could be handled in a similar
fashion if someone wants to step up to the plate. If I had the time
and expertise I would probably give at least one of these a shot.
Maybe the big question is, what would folks be willing to pay for
each of these items, and how many would sell? Should we take a poll
and find out?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Peter,
I have never been able to shift my manual full synchronize T-10 Saginaw
transmission without a clutch on the go. Only while I crept to a stop, I
may be able to shift it at times.
It may because, the transmissions gears have a very wide ratio and it's a
heavy duty truck with very tight gears.
I could have this transmission modified, blue print, and all the internals
chrome plated which will make it feel very slippery to shift without a
clutch with a cost of more than $6000.00 or replace it for $3500.00.
I am going to experiment with a TH-350 Automatic with 3.5:1 1st gear and a
2.0:1 2nd gear, with a lock up torque converter with a ratio of 1.8:1 or
without the torque converter using a front pump drive shaft and/or pump to
pre-pressure the transmission which will allow the EV to start moving at as
it does with a manual transmission.
With the torque converter unlock, my overall ratio in 1st gear would be
3.5:1 x 1.8:1 x 5.57:1 = 35.0:1 starting at 500 rpm and will become 3.5:1 x
5.57:1 = 19.495:1 at 3000 rpm.
With the torque converter lock, the overall ratio in 1st gear would be 3.5:1
x 5.57:1 = 19.495:1 at 1 rpm which is the same with the manual transmission.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Shabino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 1:27 AM
Subject: clutch or clutchless
> The joe sixpack car thread reminded me about a Doug Smiths fiero at
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/143. He is using a clutchless design in
> his
> car. Unfortunaly it does not go on to state if he actualy shifts when
> rolling or if its a one gear wonder once it gets going.
>
> Has anyone else tried a no clutch desing with rolling shifts??
>
> In theory this has a chance of working. Step off the gas then shift...
> But,
> The extra spinning mass of the electric motor might do "bad things(tm)" to
> the syncros.
>
> thoughts?
>
> Later,
> Wire
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David:
I send you an email a few days ago. All 'marine' a/c systems need access
to water. I didn't see anything that would work without water. And it's
not the 12V or so (there are other companies with 12DC air conditioners) -
where would one place a box system? Might as well use an window a/c.
Thanks anyway.
Michaela
> On 25 May 2006 at 23:52, Michaela Merz wrote:
>
>> A replacement a/c system that runs either of the second shaft of my
>> motor or
>> directly from batteries.
>>
>> Offers received: 0
>
> Did you contact the company I suggested, Glacier Bay? It appears to me
> that
> they make a system that runs on DC. Won't they sell you one? Is it more
> money than you're willing to pay?
>
> http://www.glacierbay.com/
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> On 5/26/06, Michaela Merz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I was asking for a kit. A generator/alternator, a pulley for the
>> advanced dc shaft and the necessary electronics. Some parts
>> are specific (like the voltage), others are not.
>
Evan wrote:
> To be fair, Roland suggested a solution of sorts using off-the-shelf
> parts. You said you didn't want to do that as you are not a mechanic.
>
> How is this different from an alternator "kit" which would inevitably
> also require you to make up brackets, do wiring, etc.?
I also wrote in one of my last posts, that I would be able to find
somebody able to weld a bracket into my truck and that we are able to wire
and to install a system into our truck. But not to design the electronics
and/or to custom wire an alternator.
>> > It's just not the same situation as the budding PC industry (or C64
>> > industry or whatever). There you had common hardware and a potential
>> > userbase in the thousands at least. A more realistic comparison would
>> > be if everyone had built their own computers by hand, all with
>> > slightly different hardware architectures and memory layouts, even if
>> > using common components and doing the same job.
>>
>> That was execatly how the computer industry started as 'real' computers
>> were expensive.
>
> Yes, and were you able to buy a RAM expansion card or even a power
> supply that would just plug straight in to *any* of the kit built or
> one-off computers, and expect it to work? No - You had to adapt
> things, or make them up from components. Or pay someone else to.
> Exactly the same situation here.
No - but I was able to buy RAM and/or other parts ready to go. I didn't
have to built my own ram from transistors or had to plug my own ferrite
cores into a matrix.
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My favorite best running ever EV is gone. Kent Grover from Utah towed it
back home yesterday. I hope it put it in neutral. Best wishes for a long
and trouble free career there. Did I mention the Lectra is available too.
(grin)
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 27 May 2006 at 8:16, John Westlund wrote:
> $85!!?
>
> Those are as cheap as Trojans!
Just a random thought, perhaps irrelevant. I've read that one reason that
Trojan batteries (and others) cost more these days is the high worldwide
demand for lead and other materials, particularly from China. If I'm not
mistaken, these "Universal" batteries are made in China.
As I say, just a thought. Draw your own conclusions. Or not. ;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 26 May 2006 23:10:15 -0400, "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Did you contact the company I suggested, Glacier Bay? It appears to me that
>they make a system that runs on DC. Won't they sell you one? Is it more
>money than you're willing to pay?
>
>http://www.glacierbay.com/
Hmm,
prowling around that site produces this:
http://www.ossapowerlite.com/customer.htm
and this:
http://www.ossapowerlite.com/customers/exomos/nautilus/nautilus.htm
Interesting little sub powered by a 512 volt lithium pack feeding a
low speed brushless DC motor.
This company makes BLDC propulsion motors up to several hundred HP AND
matched generators ("range extenders" in our language.)
Though "marine" products, these would seem ideally suited to EVs.
Especially the slow speed motors that could be coupled directly to the
wheels or at most, through a simple low ratio box.
For someone who wants production hardware from a large, established
company, this might be the place to go.
For those slow of wit (this is the EV list, after all), No, I don't
imagine one can dial up the company and buy a ready-to-install EV
system. But I bet they'd work with a customer to fit their product(s)
to the application.
While on the subject of speed and wit, note that the motor (and
generator, for that matter) rating is "continuous commercial service".
That is, the product will run at the rated power 24/7. "We" don't do
that. Even the smallest motor on their list would result in
neck-snapping performance at standard EV instantaneous overload
ratings.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave wrote:
> Can you "Slenderize" the half-shaft/axel? ...
> Of course, thias only works if it is the tubing that is
> contacting the case, and not the CV joints.
You guessed it - there's also an inner CV joint in the way (actually
more so than the shaft itself).
--
Bill Dennis wrote:
> What year Metro is it? Could you pad out the rear tranny mount at the
> firewall, and redrill the holes on the tranny bracket that attaches
to the
> front tranny mount? This would move the tranny forward and change
the angle
> of the half-shaft and maybe give you the clearance that you need.
Hi Bill. That's a creative idea.
The car we're using is a '92. And, as you read in my reply above to
Dave, there's not enough clearance at the inner CV joint. We could
change the angle of the shaft *outboard* of this joint by adapting the
mounts, but that CV joint remains in the same position.
--
Peter Shabino wrote:
Do you plan on shifting while moving? If you make it a one gear wonder a
offset motor is a possibility.
We were planning to have the option of shifting while moving.
My understanding is we don't strictly need the clutch & flywheel to do
this - the shift action is just slower without the clutch. I can do
clutchless shifting - up & down - in my ICE car (and had to out of
necessity once when the clutch cable broke), so it's not a totally
foreign concept. So I don't think offsetting the motor rules out shifting.
Even if the larger motor had lined up nicely, with clearance where
needed, we hadn't yet decided about keeping the flywheel or not
(opportunity to save weight - rotating mass).
Now with that said I think this would void your low budget requirement.
It would require some machining and depending on the shop rates in your
area it can become expensive fast.
I think you're right there.
So far, it looks like the evidence is piling up in support of using one
of the 8 inch pump motors as the path of least resistance and lowest cost.
Yes, we'll lose the existing field weakening feature of the 12 inch
drive motor, and the known motor-controller match. We'd also be giving
up a tail shaft (pump motor doesn't have one), and with it, options for
running accessories and/or daydreaming about regen. On the other hand,
the pump motor weighs about 125 lbs less than the drive motor, so we'd
be saving some weight there.
I think I need to take all these suggestions and go sit in garage for a
little while today, to contemplate a little further...
Thanks again everyone for your feedback.
- Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 27 May 2006 08:57:01 -0500 (CDT), "Michaela Merz"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>David:
>
>I send you an email a few days ago. All 'marine' a/c systems need access
>to water. I didn't see anything that would work without water.
No, it doesn't "need access to water". The system has a water-cooled
condenser which means that water must circulate though it. For shore
and mobile applications, that means a radiator. Even with a suitable
sized radiator instead of cool sea water, this system will STILL be
more efficient than a straight air-cooled unit. Plus, by having the
components decoupled, it will be easier to locate in the vehicle.
>And it's
>not the 12V or so (there are other companies with 12DC air conditioners) -
>where would one place a box system?
If a "box" is a problem then move over to their MicroAir split system
product. No longer a box to deal with. Size might still be an issue
- hard to tell from the meager tech information.
>Might as well use an window a/c.
Hope that doesn't indicate your level of general understanding of AC
systems.
The main problem that remains with any of those systems is capacity.
5kbtu will do little more in a car than spot cool. That will probably
be satisfactory for a single passenger but will leave the others SOL.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm really interested in this discussion since my car will probably
retain the gearbox (as is in the current plans).
The gearbox on my car has syncromesh on 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears, but
none on first or reverse.
My gear ratios are:
First: 3.628:1
Second 2.172:1
Third 1.412:1
Fourth 1:1
Reverse: 4.664.1
With a standard back differential giving 4.22:1 I'm interested to
see how this would work clutchless since it's easier from a
conversion point of view to not re-route the clutch actuator if I go
for a left-hand drive conversion. (Part of my planned restoration and
conversion is from RHD to LHD.)
My own plans aside for a second though doesn't a lack of clutch
lighten the whole system somewhat, thus leading to a more efficient
system?
Does anyone have example shift-times on non-clutched manual
transmissons?
Nikki
On 27 May 2006, at 14:56, Roland Wiench wrote:
Hello Peter,
I have never been able to shift my manual full synchronize T-10
Saginaw
transmission without a clutch on the go. Only while I crept to a
stop, I
may be able to shift it at times.
It may because, the transmissions gears have a very wide ratio and
it's a
heavy duty truck with very tight gears.
I could have this transmission modified, blue print, and all the
internals
chrome plated which will make it feel very slippery to shift without a
clutch with a cost of more than $6000.00 or replace it for $3500.00.
I am going to experiment with a TH-350 Automatic with 3.5:1 1st
gear and a
2.0:1 2nd gear, with a lock up torque converter with a ratio of
1.8:1 or
without the torque converter using a front pump drive shaft and/or
pump to
pre-pressure the transmission which will allow the EV to start
moving at as
it does with a manual transmission.
With the torque converter unlock, my overall ratio in 1st gear
would be
3.5:1 x 1.8:1 x 5.57:1 = 35.0:1 starting at 500 rpm and will become
3.5:1 x
5.57:1 = 19.495:1 at 3000 rpm.
With the torque converter lock, the overall ratio in 1st gear would
be 3.5:1
x 5.57:1 = 19.495:1 at 1 rpm which is the same with the manual
transmission.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Shabino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 1:27 AM
Subject: clutch or clutchless
The joe sixpack car thread reminded me about a Doug Smiths fiero at
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/143. He is using a clutchless
design in
his
car. Unfortunaly it does not go on to state if he actualy shifts when
rolling or if its a one gear wonder once it gets going.
Has anyone else tried a no clutch desing with rolling shifts??
In theory this has a chance of working. Step off the gas then
shift...
But,
The extra spinning mass of the electric motor might do "bad things
(tm)" to
the syncros.
thoughts?
Later,
Wire
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Nikki,
Your transmission with a non-syncro 1st and reverse is a constant mesh type
which is hard to shift from neutral to 1st or reversed. Sometimes you may
get it into gear, by just giving it a little rpm.
The overall ratio of 15.31:1 in first gear is good for 3000 lbs EV per 100
AH battery. A 2nd gear overall 9.16:1 ratio for 3000 lbs per 150 AH
battery.
My EV requires 300 AH battery for 8000 lbs at a 20.1: ratio. Normal
acceleration of 0 to 30 mph in 1st gear for 10 seconds results a battery
ampere of 90 amps and a motor amperes of 300 amps using a GE 11 incher.
It is known by expermentation, that its takes a 600 watt battery to move 100
lbs of weight to 50 mph for a time of 60 minutes using a 4.0:1 overall gear
ratio.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "nikki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 9:39 AM
Subject: Re: clutch or clutchless
> I'm really interested in this discussion since my car will probably
> retain the gearbox (as is in the current plans).
>
> The gearbox on my car has syncromesh on 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears, but
> none on first or reverse.
>
> My gear ratios are:
> First: 3.628:1
> Second 2.172:1
> Third 1.412:1
> Fourth 1:1
>
> Reverse: 4.664.1
>
> With a standard back differential giving 4.22:1 I'm interested to
> see how this would work clutchless since it's easier from a
> conversion point of view to not re-route the clutch actuator if I go
> for a left-hand drive conversion. (Part of my planned restoration and
> conversion is from RHD to LHD.)
>
> My own plans aside for a second though doesn't a lack of clutch
> lighten the whole system somewhat, thus leading to a more efficient
> system?
>
> Does anyone have example shift-times on non-clutched manual
> transmissons?
>
> Nikki
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 27 May 2006, at 14:56, Roland Wiench wrote:
>
> > Hello Peter,
> >
> > I have never been able to shift my manual full synchronize T-10
> > Saginaw
> > transmission without a clutch on the go. Only while I crept to a
> > stop, I
> > may be able to shift it at times.
> >
> > It may because, the transmissions gears have a very wide ratio and
> > it's a
> > heavy duty truck with very tight gears.
> >
> > I could have this transmission modified, blue print, and all the
> > internals
> > chrome plated which will make it feel very slippery to shift without a
> > clutch with a cost of more than $6000.00 or replace it for $3500.00.
> >
> > I am going to experiment with a TH-350 Automatic with 3.5:1 1st
> > gear and a
> > 2.0:1 2nd gear, with a lock up torque converter with a ratio of
> > 1.8:1 or
> > without the torque converter using a front pump drive shaft and/or
> > pump to
> > pre-pressure the transmission which will allow the EV to start
> > moving at as
> > it does with a manual transmission.
> >
> > With the torque converter unlock, my overall ratio in 1st gear
> > would be
> > 3.5:1 x 1.8:1 x 5.57:1 = 35.0:1 starting at 500 rpm and will become
> > 3.5:1 x
> > 5.57:1 = 19.495:1 at 3000 rpm.
> >
> > With the torque converter lock, the overall ratio in 1st gear would
> > be 3.5:1
> > x 5.57:1 = 19.495:1 at 1 rpm which is the same with the manual
> > transmission.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Peter Shabino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 1:27 AM
> > Subject: clutch or clutchless
> >
> >
> >> The joe sixpack car thread reminded me about a Doug Smiths fiero at
> >> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/143. He is using a clutchless
> >> design in
> >> his
> >> car. Unfortunaly it does not go on to state if he actualy shifts when
> >> rolling or if its a one gear wonder once it gets going.
> >>
> >> Has anyone else tried a no clutch desing with rolling shifts??
> >>
> >> In theory this has a chance of working. Step off the gas then
> >> shift...
> >> But,
> >> The extra spinning mass of the electric motor might do "bad things
> >> (tm)" to
> >> the syncros.
> >>
> >> thoughts?
> >>
> >> Later,
> >> Wire
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: Starting again...AGM question
> $85!!?
>
> Those are as cheap as Trojans!
>
> A 156V pack would weigh 950 pounds and deliver 12480 Wh at
> the 1 hour rate. A highly efficient 130 wh/mile EV would get
> 100 miles range! A more realistic 200 wh/mile small EV would
> get 60 miles range.
>
> Do you know how well they hold up with routine high
> discharge rates, like around 700+ amps? I know they're rated
> at 720 CCA, which is pretty good.
>
> Anything on cycle life?
>
> Their published specs are here:
>
> http://www.cetsolar.com/PDF/UB121100 (30H.pdf
>
> If the manufacturer's specs are accurate, a Blue Meanie
> style EV with high range could be built for roughly
> $7,000-8,000, and have similar performance that the car is
> reknown for. That would kick ass! I'd gladly build my
> Triumph around a platform like that if the battery can take
> the abuse.
>
> Blue Meanie's 156V of Optimas allow what? 125 kW from the
> battery side cranking out 1,000 amps and sagging to 9.6V?
>
> At .004 ohms, these UB121100 batteries in theory would allow
> 98 kW assuming 13.6V coming off a full charge and limit to
> 700 amps? If they can take 1,000 amps regularly, power can
> be upped to the level of the Optimas.
>
> That would give comparable performance to Blue Meanie in a
> car of similar weight.
>
> Imagine a 2,400 pound conversion with the smallest Zilla
> available, 9" WarP motor, and 156V pack of these batteries.
> $7,000-8,000 conversion, with regs and PFC charger. 0-60 mph
> about 6 seconds, top speed around 120 mph... And in a car
> with aerodynamic modifications to high hell for 130 wh/mile
> at 60 mph, 100 miles range to full discharge. That would
> fucking rule!
You Bet! SOMETTHING must be wrong, but the math looks good! Anybody
stepping to the plate? Or howbout a string of BB 600's in parallel to " Help
out" on accereration and Brakestands?If you could run these cells WITHOUT
the 1000 amp bursts they might(Could) reward you with eye popping range?
>
> So, are these batteries up to providing high power? What
> about cycle life?
> OK Nowback to reality<g>! But the decent battery managment system, 8
dollarword for charger, we, you could be on to something. Finding a nice
lite doner car is one of your bigger chalanges! How much do those little Kia
Reo's weigh? You could build a hellova sleeper out of one of them, blowing
off "Vettes and stuff, just for breakfast! And I don't mean a Railway
Carriage(Pullman) with beds and staterooms<g>!You OTHER Old Farts remember
those.I see a buncha Kias, around here, they look like you could stuff, say
240 volts of Aero's aboard for a Zombie hunter?
My two cells worth
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a 1989 Isuzu pu that is clutchless and I shift it up and down and
have no troube while moving. The sync in the trans take care of the gear
meshing.
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Shabino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 3:27 AM
Subject: clutch or clutchless
The joe sixpack car thread reminded me about a Doug Smiths fiero at
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/143. He is using a clutchless design in
his car. Unfortunaly it does not go on to state if he actualy shifts when
rolling or if its a one gear wonder once it gets going.
Has anyone else tried a no clutch desing with rolling shifts??
In theory this has a chance of working. Step off the gas then shift...
But, The extra spinning mass of the electric motor might do "bad
things(tm)" to the syncros.
thoughts?
Later,
Wire
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.2/349 - Release Date: 5/26/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 10:16 AM
Subject: Electravan sold by word of EVlist
> My favorite best running ever EV is gone. Kent Grover from Utah towed it
> back home yesterday. I hope it put it in neutral. Best wishes for a long
> and trouble free career there. Did I mention the Lectra is available too.
And I Hopethehell he stops and CHECKS HIS GODAMN TOWING RIG
OFTEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry for shouting.
Bob, Rabbit less because......
Seeya at"DC" >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
> Mouser. Here is a list of the parts I bought:
> 606-PR2 PR2 2.38V .5A [lamp] $0.560
> 526-1N5341B 1N5341B 6.2V 5W ZENER $0.760
> 610-CZ5342B CZ5342B 6.8V 5W ZENER $0.520
> 660-MF1/2DLT52R10R0F 10ohms 1% $0.090
> 590-832-TC-450ML Epoxy Compound $29.95
These will all work fine. You could save a little money by avoiding NTE
parts, which have a high markup. Also, you don't need a 1% resistor;
plain old 5% carbon film are fine.
> The smaller lugs are standard Home Depot 12-10 gauge yellow lugs;
> the smaller diode fits in them. For the larger one I used heavy-duty
> 6ga tinned eyelets, with a 5/16" bolt hole, from Waytek Wire, part#
> 36472.
The lugs are the heatsink for the zeners in these regulators. I used the
large Waytek lugs for both zeners. The smaller zener actually needs the
bigger lug more, to avoid overheating.
I also used heatshrink tubing; a smaller size for the lugs, and a larger
one for the lamp. The tubing serves as a mold to retain the potting
compound until it sets.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Cover wrote:
> Execellent. Why are the simple solutions so hard to see?
That's how it works, I guess. Obvious solution are often complicated and
expensive!
> Suppose I had the following configuration. I want to use batteries
> in addition to the dc-dc to power the car accessories, but I also
> need 24 volts for some things. I start with this for my 24 volt
> components;
You can't simultaneously use the same two batteries for both 12v and
24v. And if you wire them in series and tap the at 12v, the two
batteries will wind up imbalanced; at different states of charge.
If you decide to use two 12v DC/DC converters, you could wire each one
to a separate 12v battery. Connect the batteries in series, and use the
24v for your 24v loads. Then tap them at 12v for your 12v loads. The
separate DC/DCs will charge each battery according to its needs.
This works best if each DC/DC is powered by the propulsion pack as a
whole. But if you use two DC/DCs, each powered by half the propulsion
pack, then if each charges a separate 12v battery, you're back to having
balance problems because each DC/DC runs at a different power level.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
> Why again is there a resistor across the bulb?
It's just a backup system. Someday the bulb may burn out or get broken.
The resistor means you don't lose *all* regulation.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Brune wrote:
> The DC/DCs are tapped into the pack. Unless efforts are made to
> ensure an equal output power from each they will not share. The
> diodes in the output will go a long ways to making sure that this
> happens (sharing). However if the converter outputs are
> significantly different (like 0.5V or so) it will not help enough.
> Anyone who tries this also needs to keep in mind that these
> diodes may require a substantial heatsink.
I agree; you want both converters to be the same make, model, and
adjusted to the same voltage. This, plus the commoning diodes is what
encourages them to both supply the same current.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
Clutchless works for me.
I have a Ford Sierra 5sp manual gearbox in my electric Clubman.
Changing from 4th to 5th at 80km/h takes about 0.5 - 1.5 secs.
(No good for drag racing, but fine for cruising around town.)
Sometimes it doesn't change cleanly into reverse.
I need to put a little pressure on the gear stick and tap the throttle
for it to drop in.
The other thing to remember when deciding whether to clutch or not is
that compared to an ICE car, you hardly ever change gears in an EV.
Most of my driving around mildly hilly suburban streets is done in 4th
gear, and that includes starting.
What works for you will depend on the battery/controller/motor
combination that you choose.
Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of nikki
> Sent: Sunday, 28 May 2006 1:40 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: clutch or clutchless
>
>
> I'm really interested in this discussion since my car will probably
> retain the gearbox (as is in the current plans).
>
> The gearbox on my car has syncromesh on 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears, but
> none on first or reverse.
>
> My gear ratios are:
> First: 3.628:1
> Second 2.172:1
> Third 1.412:1
> Fourth 1:1
>
> Reverse: 4.664.1
>
> With a standard back differential giving 4.22:1 I'm interested to
> see how this would work clutchless since it's easier from a
> conversion point of view to not re-route the clutch actuator if I go
> for a left-hand drive conversion. (Part of my planned
> restoration and
> conversion is from RHD to LHD.)
>
> My own plans aside for a second though doesn't a lack of clutch
> lighten the whole system somewhat, thus leading to a more efficient
> system?
>
> Does anyone have example shift-times on non-clutched manual
> transmissons?
>
> Nikki
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Westlund wrote:
> I assume these are regs that can be used with practically
> any charger?
You can... but your charger still has to be smart enough not to charge
excessively. The charger has to be at a low current when the regulators
begin working, and has to shut off after a relatively short time.
You can do this "open loop" by arranging the charger so it automatically
delivers low current for a short time. For example, a
transformer-rectifier charger that is adjusted to deliver <1 amp at
2.5v/cell, and has a timer to turn itself off in 1-2 hours.
Or, you can do it "closed loop", where the light from the regulators
commands the charger to cut back and turn off.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Darin wrote:
> Today we ran into our first big stumbling block on the Joe Sixpack
> low-budget NEV/LSV Geo Metro-based project.
As it happens, I am in Michigan for the holiday, and my Cousin (that has
a Metro he wants to convert) was just here. "Joe Sixpack" describes him
well, and he too has a used forklift motor he wants to use.
> ... and we just discovered the 12 inch diameter forklift drive
> motor that we were hoping to use is about half an inch too big:
> there won't be enough clearance for the halfshaft axle that goes
> from the transaxle, alongside the "back" of the motor, to the wheel.
A 12" motor is a *big* motor for an EV. If you do manage to squeeze it
in, that monster is going to make some *serious* torque. Either keep the
controller's current down, or be prepared for broken transaxles!
What is the center-to-center spacing between the half shafts and the
motor? Just how much extra room do you need? If you're only off by half
an inch, there may be some quick fixes, like angling the transaxle
slightly to gain clearance.
Before going to a more radical solution like a belt drive or one-wheel
drive, I'd either use the smaller motor or trade the big one for a motor
that fits.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
