EV Digest 5546
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Massive Madness - Buick Electra Conversion?
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Saw a movie & the trailers showed a Hypermini & Who killed the electric
car.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Question about NIMH patent(s)
by "Michael Mohlere" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Question concerning PHEV vs. EV
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) watthour meter AC side
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: watthour meter AC side
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Washington Post Insult to Injury
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: CA DMV
by "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Power of DC Dissed by the Washington Post
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Massive Madness - Buick Electra Conversion?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Making a battery
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Question about NIMH patent(s)
by "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Question about NIMH patent(s)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Question about NIMH patent(s)
by "Michael Mohlere" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Rookie Needs Advice
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Massive Madness - Buick Electra Conversion?
by "OPS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: Question concerning PHEV vs. EV
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----Original Message Follows----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
It would be more work, but I'm sure it could be done. One advantage of
these older "land yachts" is that they tended to overbuild things
because they didn't have the computer-aided design to cut things close
to the bone. Also, the brakes, suspension, wheels, tires, etc. were
simpler -- it would be easier to swap them for higher-strength truck
parts. Think of Roland Weinch's 2.5-ton El Camino.
Batteries are heavy, but they don't actually take up many cubic feet.
The 30 T-145s you suggested are only 30 x (7" x 10" x 11") = 13.5 cubic
feet. These old cars easily had that much room in the trunk and under
the hood.
My guess is that you'd build a real frame to put underneath, and use
truck parts for the suspension, brakes, and wheels.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
These old cars were already body on frame construction, so should be able to
support a lot of battery weight with some suspension upgrades. I think
American Motors was the only US company to use "unibody" construction at
that time. I know my 63 Chevy was body on frame, and I don't believe it was
all that heavy, either (less than 4000 lbs). The transition away from body
on frame construction for cars came about with the adoption of front wheel
drive. They suddenly started looking for ways to shed weight.
I believe even the smaller cars at that time were body on frame
(Valiant/Dart, Falcon, Chevy II), but it's been so long since I've seen one
I'm no longer sure.
Dave Davidson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Saw a movie the other day & the Who Killed the
Electric Car trailer was there & a trailer for a New Movie With Woodie
Allen shows Woodie Driving a Hypermini in an outragious way. LR.....
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm assuming the blown fet is the charger fets, yes? Shorting to the
gate and smoking everything attached to the gate? Gee, I've never seen
that happen ;)
Maybe we should hook up an opto and fet combo or something similar to
gate of the charger fets so when they fry there is some isolation to
the main board. These main boards die ugly deaths. In all of my motor
control rebuilding experience I have yet to see someone isolate the
control circuitry from the gate of the fet, in the event of a failure.
It just cannot be that difficult.
As I recall the wiring going from the main board to the charger gates
could be intercepted and then updated with a tiny pcb with these
isolation parts.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Danny Miller wrote:
> > First question, just what do you want to do here?
>
> As discussed, the +15 power supply (one of 4 in a Dolphin) was blown to
> bits due to a MOSFET failure. That's why it never ran. I can bypass
this
> and get the truck to run, but I'd like something that can run off pack
> power or isolated 12 volt power from the battery system.
>
> The second +12 supply is for the e-meter. Xantrex in their wisdom set
> the thing up so it's - is tied to pack negative. Thus unless you do not
> want the mother of all ground faults you need to either tap the
traction
> pack (a disaster in any way) or hook it up via an isolated DC-DC to +12.
>
> Both of these need less than an amp of current capacity.
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
I'm assuming the blown fet is the charger fets, yes? Shorting to the
gate and smoking everything attached to the gate? Gee, I've never seen
that happen ;)
Yes, and it gets worse.
When this happens, and you're plugged into 220, you now have an
interesting problem. There is 220 volts on the gate, but how oh how does
that matter? All of the dolphin internal power supplies are isolated due
to that neat-o 300 volt to 5,15,-5,-15 thingie.
Answer: Well sorta.
Basically the +15 is used by some of the telemetry circuits. And one of
these is look for ground faults. So one end of +15 is grounded to the case.
Which is grounded to the frame, which is grounded to the neutral wire
which will happliy carry 110 volts since ground is bonded to neutral in
your friendly breaker box in your house. Thus you now have one leg (110
volts) roaring thru your Dolphin's +15 like a concrete elephant.
Life is like that.
Maybe we should hook up an opto and fet combo or something similar to
gate of the charger fets so when they fry there is some isolation to
the main board. These main boards die ugly deaths. In all of my motor
control rebuilding experience I have yet to see someone isolate the
control circuitry from the gate of the fet, in the event of a failure.
It just cannot be that difficult.
Oh I fixed one. That's what blew up my truck in the first place. New +15
supply, new FETs, 1 ohm resistors, fet driver and the like will make it
very happy again.
As I recall the wiring going from the main board to the charger gates
could be intercepted and then updated with a tiny pcb with these
isolation parts.
Sure. Just splice it in the wires. A pair of .1a fuses would probably do
the trick.
Now, where you *really* need isolation to be honest is in that loop
circuit that goes outside the dolphin to find open 300 volt sources.
It's on pins EE and FF. If that shorts to car ground apparently it blows
half the dolphin up. And we all know that would never happen.
Chris
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Danny Miller wrote:
First question, just what do you want to do here?
As discussed, the +15 power supply (one of 4 in a Dolphin) was blown to
bits due to a MOSFET failure. That's why it never ran. I can bypass
this
and get the truck to run, but I'd like something that can run off pack
power or isolated 12 volt power from the battery system.
The second +12 supply is for the e-meter. Xantrex in their wisdom set
the thing up so it's - is tied to pack negative. Thus unless you do not
want the mother of all ground faults you need to either tap the
traction
pack (a disaster in any way) or hook it up via an isolated DC-DC to +12.
Both of these need less than an amp of current capacity.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When you say "murder", I assume you mean prematurely destroy for lack of
maintenance or something else....seems like a no maintenance nilar battery
would be just the ticket....
Mike
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Question about NIMH patent(s)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:54:32 -0400
On 5 Jun 2006 at 3:29, Michael Mohlere wrote:
> Exactly where can you purchase these nilar batteries? Has anyone used
them? I'm
> starting on my first EV, and am considering using same ...
For your first EV, I strongly advise using golf car batteries. Beginners
tend to murder their first (and sometimes second and third) packs, so you
don't want the first one to be an expensive one.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jun 4, 2006, at 12:01 PM, Steve Powers wrote:
I have been reading (only a little though) about the PHEV conversions.
My understanding is that they are limited to about 34 MPH / 40 miles
in all electric mode. Has anyone attempted to put a secondary
(larger) electric motor on one of these cars?
The Prius (and those speeds seem to indicate we are talking about the
Prius) needs to have the ICE turning if you go faster. There are 2
electric motors in the front drive and one will over-rev if you go
faster without spinning the ICE (even if you put the Prius in neutral.)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone recomend an AC side WattHour Meter?
I am specifically looking for something that I can mount on the car so I
can accurately track input power wherever I charge.
There must be something panel mount, but no catalogs nor websites turn
anything up.
Thanks for any leads.
Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I picked up both a 120vac model and a 240vac model from Ebay.
The 120vac model is common. Kill A Watt is the brand name. Lots of
vendors selling it on EBay.
The 240vac model is a UK version. I was just going to adapt it to US
240vac. Here is the Ebay number 7626684873.
I've only tested the 120vac model. It works fine. The 240vac model
still needs the adapters made.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Does anyone recomend an AC side WattHour Meter?
>
> I am specifically looking for something that I can mount on the car so I
> can accurately track input power wherever I charge.
>
> There must be something panel mount, but no catalogs nor websites turn
> anything up.
>
> Thanks for any leads.
>
> Ben
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found out why Washington Post Reporter Anita Hunley decided not to
go with doing a story on our EV drag race.
She did a Hummer article instead for crying out loud! Arggghhhh, it
is a conspiracy!
Last week she interviewed me about the Power of DC but wasn't sure if
they would run it.
Look in today's style section and you will see the article she did on
a woman who drives a Hummer.
I sent her a polite message, but after teasing her for doing an
article on the Hummer I doubt she will consider us again. Oh well.
The way I figure it. They never covered the race in 6 years anyway.
The thing is she is the one who contacted me. I never sent the Post
anything on the race. But she never responded back to any additional
information I sent her about the race or doing the story after the
interview. So that was a bit rude then to see this article is an
insult to injury.
Chip
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's finally registered!
I pulled up to the Ref Station, a guy walked up, and I explained my
situation. He says let see under the hood. I opened it. He immediately
says "Cooool, It's Electric!". He starts to walk away. I said is there
anything else you would like to do and he says, "Why, It has no
tailpipe!". Man that guy is cool!!! He did some paperwork and I was
off to the DMV to pay registration. What an awesome day!!! I guess I
have that "grin" now everybody talks about... :-)
Thanks
John Grigg
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/723
>From: Jeff Shanab
>I am almost done with this. They had given me the same pamplet, when I
called the air resources board I found a guy on the other end of the
line that had an EV rabbit once, he was very nice supportive and
helpful.
>I am in Fresno county, don't know if that makes a difference, but I
went to referee and got the engine code changed to G, they actaully had
me bring it in early so it could be showed to the vocational class that
was there. the G code is the same as the hybrids here and exempts me
from having to smog again. I must of asked 10 times but "g" it was.
>Then I went to the DMV where they verified the VIN. This should of been
done before the referee trip, I got lucky and the guy was willing to
sign me off "pending" (Of course I new him by now. I had a motor change
on my ICE that had to go back to him so I had 2 referee apointments on
the same day.)
>I got plates and tags, but they will not give me my personalized plate
that I payed for over a year ago until they finalize everything, they
made me sent my original reciepts to sacremento. I didn't like that,
espicially since they already have made me go back to the DMV for the
VIN verificaion again, they lost it.
>The good part was that the car was a real hit with the personel at the
DMV, Allow extra time when you go back!
____________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
> What I worry about here is capacitor ability. My charger can run up
> to 400 volts on charge, and if a laptop power supply can't handle a
> 400 volt surge we will have a mess.
An inexpensive power supply meant to run on 240vac will have 400v rated
capacitors, diodes, and transistors. This is just barely enough for the
peak of a 10% high line voltage. I'd say that isn't enough safety margin
in your situation.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
>
> Danny Miller wrote:
> > First question, just what do you want to do here?
>
> As discussed, the +15 power supply (one of 4 in a Dolphin) was blown to
> bits due to a MOSFET failure. That's why it never ran. I can bypass this
> and get the truck to run, but I'd like something that can run off pack
> power or isolated 12 volt power from the battery system.
>
> The second +12 supply is for the e-meter. Xantrex in their wisdom set
> the thing up so it's - is tied to pack negative. Thus unless you do not
> want the mother of all ground faults you need to either tap the traction
> pack (a disaster in any way) or hook it up via an isolated DC-DC to +12.
>
> Both of these need less than an amp of current capacity.
Since you need two, and they are both low power, why not use two
"universal input" switching supplies, and wire each across half the
pack? By loading them roughly equally, they will load each half-pack
equally and it will stay in balance.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A couple weeks ago Anita Huslin, a reporter from the Post's Style
section, called about the NEDRA Power of DC race. I hadn't sent out a
press release to the Post because they are generally unfriendly to
EVs. So this call was out completely out of the blue.
Anyway, she interviewed me for an hour and I was telling her all
about the cool EVs we would have like Matt Grahams 13 second Nissan,
Darin Gilbert's bike, Robert Salem's Rabbit truck, SEVO's Orange
Crush and the Great Mills High School MR2 and Mustang . . . . and
more. I mentioned that the Discovery Channel did a great piece on
last year's race and she said she would check that out and see if her
editor would run the story.
After a week I hear nothing and during this time I'm paging through
the Post seeing if she's written anything. And I see absolutely
nothing she's written after our conversation. She never gets back to
me either way.
Then today, a day after the race I see a front page story in the
Style section that Anita has written about a WOMAN WHO DRIVES A
HUMMER TO WORK. Color photos, two pages. The works.
Ohh the humanity!!
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Power of DC
http://www.powerofdc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Davidson wrote:
> These old cars were already body on frame construction, so should be
> able to support a lot of battery weight with some suspension upgrades.
> I think American Motors was the only US company to use "unibody"
> construction at that time. I know my 63 Chevy was body on frame...
I don't think that is quite the case. I had a 1961 Corvair, and my
family had a 1962 Chevy Impala; both were unibodies. But my cousin had a
1957 Chevy, and it *did* have a separate frame. So somewhere in between
is where Chevrolet made the change to unibodies.
What may be confusing you is that the transistion from full frame to
full unibody was rather gradual. At first, the frame was completely
separate: You could remove bolts and the entire body came off; and the
remaining frame was still a drivable car. Then they went to a subframe;
a bolt-in section that held just the engine and front suspension. Then
the body got welded to the frame, and the frame made of thinner material
since the sheet metal body stiffened it. Over time this has continued to
evolve until no "frame" per se existed at all.
My '61 Corvair and '62 Chevy were both unibodies with subframes.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fuses are easy, but since we can never buy these boards some kind of
isolation is my goal.
I'm not sure where the 300v loop is you are refering to. But I'm sure
I will ;)
Mike
>
> Sure. Just splice it in the wires. A pair of .1a fuses would
probably do
> the trick.
>
> Now, where you *really* need isolation to be honest is in that loop
> circuit that goes outside the dolphin to find open 300 volt sources.
> It's on pins EE and FF. If that shorts to car ground apparently it
blows
> half the dolphin up. And we all know that would never happen.
>
> Chris
>
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christopher Zach <ev@> wrote:
> >
> >>Danny Miller wrote:
> >>
> >>>First question, just what do you want to do here?
> >>
> >>As discussed, the +15 power supply (one of 4 in a Dolphin) was
blown to
> >>bits due to a MOSFET failure. That's why it never ran. I can bypass
> >
> > this
> >
> >>and get the truck to run, but I'd like something that can run off
pack
> >>power or isolated 12 volt power from the battery system.
> >>
> >>The second +12 supply is for the e-meter. Xantrex in their wisdom set
> >>the thing up so it's - is tied to pack negative. Thus unless you
do not
> >>want the mother of all ground faults you need to either tap the
> >
> > traction
> >
> >>pack (a disaster in any way) or hook it up via an isolated DC-DC
to +12.
> >>
> >>Both of these need less than an amp of current capacity.
> >>
> >>Chris
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
> Maybe we should hook up an opto and fet combo or something similar to
> gate of the charger fets so when they fry there is some isolation to
> the main board. These main boards die ugly deaths. In all of my motor
> control rebuilding experience I have yet to see someone isolate the
> control circuitry from the gate of the fet, in the event of a failure.
> It just cannot be that difficult.
No, it's not difficult. But it adds cost. Most products are optimized
for minimum cost, and aren't built to be repaired. Thus the lack of
parts that would mitigate damages if/when a failure occurs.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
Any idea of a fet gate isolation circuit? These main boards for our
USE vehilces are no longer available and the traces & substrate die
with great ease.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Christopher Zach wrote:
> >
> > Danny Miller wrote:
> > > First question, just what do you want to do here?
> >
> > As discussed, the +15 power supply (one of 4 in a Dolphin) was
blown to
> > bits due to a MOSFET failure. That's why it never ran. I can
bypass this
> > and get the truck to run, but I'd like something that can run off pack
> > power or isolated 12 volt power from the battery system.
> >
> > The second +12 supply is for the e-meter. Xantrex in their wisdom set
> > the thing up so it's - is tied to pack negative. Thus unless you
do not
> > want the mother of all ground faults you need to either tap the
traction
> > pack (a disaster in any way) or hook it up via an isolated DC-DC
to +12.
> >
> > Both of these need less than an amp of current capacity.
>
> Since you need two, and they are both low power, why not use two
> "universal input" switching supplies, and wire each across half the
> pack? By loading them roughly equally, they will load each half-pack
> equally and it will stay in balance.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is it that hard to make a battery? Say a 100ah Nimh cell. Anyone ever
tried? Anyone ever cut one open? With battery cost on the increase, I
am exploring making them.
Mike
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> When you say "murder", I assume you mean prematurely destroy for lack of
> maintenance or something else....seems like a no maintenance nilar battery
> would be just the ticket....
>
> Mike
Trust me, Mike. Newbies can murder any brand, type or formula of
battery... as in letting out the smoke. There is *no* idiot proof
charging/discharging system. (Maintenance free doesn't mean idiot proof...
as proven by me.)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Mohlere wrote:
> When you say "murder", I assume you mean prematurely destroy for lack of
> maintenance or something else...
> seems like a no maintenance nilar battery would be just the ticket...
What he means is that 9 out of 10 first-time EVers destroy their first
battery pack due to ignorance, abuse, or negligence.
There is a *lot* of bad advice circulating about batteries. People who
have never actually tested any battery or made any measurements still
seem to have strong opinions. People listen to such advice, and ruin
their batteries.
> seems like a no maintenance nilar battery would be just the ticket...
The trouble is, no one's ever heard of Nilar before. It's much easier to
make a good website than a good battery. It's easier to fake your
pictures and invent test data than to do actual life testing.
So, almost all battery manufacturers a) aren't really manufacturers --
they buy stuff from someone else and put their name on it, and b)
haven't done anything more than cursory testing -- most of the data is
made up or extrapolated.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee -
Thanks for the info - it sounds like perhaps NO ONE has used these batteries
in an EV before....can anyone provide some real world "I used this in my EV"
data/testimony??
Thx, Mike
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Question about NIMH patent(s)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 14:50:36 -0500
Michael Mohlere wrote:
> When you say "murder", I assume you mean prematurely destroy for lack of
> maintenance or something else...
> seems like a no maintenance nilar battery would be just the ticket...
What he means is that 9 out of 10 first-time EVers destroy their first
battery pack due to ignorance, abuse, or negligence.
There is a *lot* of bad advice circulating about batteries. People who
have never actually tested any battery or made any measurements still
seem to have strong opinions. People listen to such advice, and ruin
their batteries.
> seems like a no maintenance nilar battery would be just the ticket...
The trouble is, no one's ever heard of Nilar before. It's much easier to
make a good website than a good battery. It's easier to fake your
pictures and invent test data than to do actual life testing.
So, almost all battery manufacturers a) aren't really manufacturers --
they buy stuff from someone else and put their name on it, and b)
haven't done anything more than cursory testing -- most of the data is
made up or extrapolated.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ahem. I believe that, properly stated, that would be a kluge (rhymes with
huge) not a kludge (rhymes with fudge.)
http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/K/kluge.html
Etymologically yours,
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Chris,
That is a Kludge. You can do this simpler and cheaper.
You only need to scrounge for a supply from a dead laptop,
mostly these are (almost) free.
At work we have a large carton box full of switching power supplies
from various sources. Forgotten, redundant or broken electronics
leave a heap of power supplies behind.
I plug my laptop supply straight into my pack (312V nominal) since
the supply is a switcher for 100-240V AC and works fine on my pack's
DC input. It supplies 20V 4.5A to my laptop, but there are many
variants of supplies that will give you anything and certainly 12
and 15V are standard voltages.
Good thing of the switcher is that it will draw very little
current when unloaded, in contrast to the inverter + cheap transformer.
BTW - this will only work if you have this power supply active during
charging AND driving, as your 12V loads will be much larger than the
3 to 5A that laptop supplies deliver.
You could either find a heavier switching power supply (30A or so) or
accept the gradual discharge while driving...
Success getting your DC/DC to work, as you may know my truck is
currently sitting in my garage with a broken DC/DC as well, but
since I am travelling the entire month with only overnights at home
and time to repack for a next trip, I have no time to fix it until July...
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:08 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
Question: Is it stupid to get a pair of isolated DC-DC sources (+15 and
+12) by just taking a $30 12 volt to 120 volt AC inverter, then plugging
in a pair of wall-wart transformers?
It can't be that simple, can it?
Chris
---------------------------------
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--- Begin Message ---
mark olejarczyk wrote:
> I am a beginner with a strong interest / passion to convert an S-10
> to an EV. I have subscribed to 2 discusssion lists, but all of you
> folks seem to be well beyond me.
Welcome, Mark. The EV list has people on all different "rungs" of the
ladder; some at the bottom, some partway up, and others near the top. If
you're just starting, you'll be at the bottom rung so a lot of things
will be over your head. But keep reading, and keep climbing -- you'll
learn as you go. Pretty soon it starts to make sense :-)
> I am trying to pull together a plan. I want to purchase a conversion kit
> and go for it.
A kit is a good way to start. The S-10 is a popular candidate, so there
are several to choose from.
> My needs list would include:
> Minimal Cost
> Highway Speeds
> Normal Hills
> Maximum Distance
> 220 volt single phase charger
These goals would best be satisfied by something like a couple dozen 6v
golf cart batteries, Advanced DC 9" motor, Curtis 1231C controller, and
Lester 72v charger. Wire the batteries in series for driving, and
parallel for charging. These are all well-proven, mass-produced items,
and so fairly conservative and economical. It won't be any speed demon
or range champion, but will work just fine as a daily driver.
> I guess the first question is AC or DC.
DC, unless you have an extra few thousand dollars to spend.
> Transmission - Manual Transmission or Direct Drive behind the axle.
Keep the transmission, as it is already there.
> Batteries - What should I go with given the cost / life /performance
> tradeoffs?
Golf cart batteries are half the price of any alternative, so if low
cost per mile is the goal, it's the only way to go.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Lee,
Sorry but this is not going to work, as the switchers power
totally different circuits: one is a help voltage for the
motor controller; the other is for the Emeter, so they will
not balance as the energy draw (power over time) depends on
the amount of use that the truck gets. It will cause an
unbalance in the pack and it is not necessary to do this.
BTW: I initially read your suggestion as to put the two in
series and hook them up to the full pack voltage, but just to
make this perfectly clear to everyone who thinks this is a good
idea: it will not work - a switcher has a negative resistance,
the lower the input voltage gets, the higher the current draw.
NEVER try to use two switchers in series to divide the input
voltage in two, you will immediately blow up one, which happens to
draw the least current, as it will get the highest voltage; this
will usually cause the second to get the full pack voltage and
follow the first. (I know you know this Lee, I saw you suggest
that you wire each switcher to half the pack, but that creates
the above problem.)
The only good way is to take a multi-voltage switcher, usually
specified for 100-240V AC, which has at least 10% margin so
the input must be able to withstand 265V AC and after rectifying
this gives 375V.
When you open a switching power supply you will see that the
input capacitor (which is usually the critical part) has a
DC voltage rating of 400V or more.
At the lower side of the range, the AC line voltage may drop
to 90V AC, so the switcher should be able to work well from
only 130V DC - this means that a 144V nominal pack is the
lowest voltage that you can guarantee that the switcher will
work well.
For low current draw you may be lucky and see the switcher start
at much lower voltage, I have a 110V AC switcher that delivers
12V 1/2Amp from 40V DC input.
The upper voltage range of at least 400V means that it is safe
to connect the two switchers directly (and in parallel) to the
312V pack of a US Electricar truck.
The power supplies can be wired together through one fuse of
at least 1A, preferably even a bit more (2 or 3A) to avoid
nuisance trips due to inrush current peaks.
(not only when the contactor closes, but also when switching
between acceleration and regeneration)
The purpose of the fuse is to protect the batteries and wiring
in case a switcher fails, since the wires should be able to
carry 10A at least, a 3A fuse should be safe.
There is a short but hefty inrush current, so it could make sense
to hook the switching power supply up to the pre-charged input of
the motor controller, which will avoid high stress on the input
filter of the switcher every time the contactor closes.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 12:20 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
Christopher Zach wrote:
>
> Danny Miller wrote:
> > First question, just what do you want to do here?
>
> As discussed, the +15 power supply (one of 4 in a Dolphin) was blown to
> bits due to a MOSFET failure. That's why it never ran. I can bypass this
> and get the truck to run, but I'd like something that can run off pack
> power or isolated 12 volt power from the battery system.
>
> The second +12 supply is for the e-meter. Xantrex in their wisdom set
> the thing up so it's - is tied to pack negative. Thus unless you do not
> want the mother of all ground faults you need to either tap the traction
> pack (a disaster in any way) or hook it up via an isolated DC-DC to +12.
>
> Both of these need less than an amp of current capacity.
Since you need two, and they are both low power, why not use two
"universal input" switching supplies, and wire each across half the
pack? By loading them roughly equally, they will load each half-pack
equally and it will stay in balance.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Hmm.
My understanding is that the '66 Olds
Toronado was GM's first unibody
full-size car.
The Corvair was GM's first compact
unibody and the second generation model
('65-'69) is noticeably less robust than
the earlier model, when they were less
confident with how little metal they could
get away with.
And, it is true that American Motors
pioneered what has become standard
practice in unibody construction, if
memory serves, as early as '58?
I have owned several examples of all three of these cars
(Corvair, Toronado, AMC) models, but do not
claim to be an expert. However, I recall that
Chebbie had a full (perimeter) frame on its full-size
models, at least through '69.
Of more relevance is that the '75 Electra does
indeed appear to have a full (perimeter) frame. See:
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/362387
Jay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: Massive Madness - Buick Electra Conversion?
> Dave Davidson wrote:
> > These old cars were already body on frame construction, so should be
> > able to support a lot of battery weight with some suspension upgrades.
> > I think American Motors was the only US company to use "unibody"
> > construction at that time. I know my 63 Chevy was body on frame...
>
> I don't think that is quite the case. I had a 1961 Corvair, and my
> family had a 1962 Chevy Impala; both were unibodies. But my cousin had a
> 1957 Chevy, and it *did* have a separate frame. So somewhere in between
> is where Chevrolet made the change to unibodies.
>
> What may be confusing you is that the transistion from full frame to
> full unibody was rather gradual. At first, the frame was completely
> separate: You could remove bolts and the entire body came off; and the
> remaining frame was still a drivable car. Then they went to a subframe;
> a bolt-in section that held just the engine and front suspension. Then
> the body got welded to the frame, and the frame made of thinner material
> since the sheet metal body stiffened it. Over time this has continued to
> evolve until no "frame" per se existed at all.
>
> My '61 Corvair and '62 Chevy were both unibodies with subframes.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
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Well,
The point is that you actually CAN spin the ICE engine
without it using any gas - just idle pumping (compressing and
decompressing air with all valves closed throughout the cycle)
This is a "warp-stealth" mode (stealth being the all-electric mode)
that the Prius enters when coasting at a speed of 42 or more MPH.
Since one of the two motors is directly connected to the ICE shaft,
it controls at which speed the motor turns.
Since the Prius has decently rated electric motors with water-cooling,
they should be able to take the vehicle up to Freeway speeds without
problem and without overheating, EVen though Toyota does not run the
motors very long - probably because the battery cannot sustain the
electric power required for this mode of operation for more than a
few minutes at best due to its limited capacity.
The PHEV modifications will give more clarity if the Prius can be
ran for extended periods of time without negative impact.
My truck stays normally below 30 kW to drive around town and on
the Freeway, only occasionally (during hard accel) will it use
the full 50 kW peak power.
This means that the much lighter Prius with its 50 kW motor power
will be much more zippy (not too difficult) and still on the
average will be running 1/3 to 1/2 the rated power of the motors.
The only catch is that you will need to design the motor control
such that the two motors act the same way as currently - one will
need to spin the ICE up when you reach 42 MPH or it will over-rev
the other motor. The torque-splitter with its differential behaviour
is an interesting beast to understand.
Success!
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Paul G.
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 10:54 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Question concerning PHEV vs. EV
On Jun 4, 2006, at 12:01 PM, Steve Powers wrote:
> I have been reading (only a little though) about the PHEV conversions.
> My understanding is that they are limited to about 34 MPH / 40 miles
> in all electric mode. Has anyone attempted to put a secondary
> (larger) electric motor on one of these cars?
The Prius (and those speeds seem to indicate we are talking about the
Prius) needs to have the ICE turning if you go faster. There are 2
electric motors in the front drive and one will over-rev if you go
faster without spinning the ICE (even if you put the Prius in neutral.)
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