EV Digest 5548
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by "Zik Saleeba" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Who Killed The Electric Car?
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Three questions (was: Announcement of new NEDRA Voltage
Divisions)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by "Zik Saleeba" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Question about NIMH patent(s)
by "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Nilars, etc...
by "Michael Mohlere" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Nilars, etc...
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re:Washington Post Insult to Injury
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Nilar cost (was RE: Question about NIMH patent(s))
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Making a battery
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Take it easy man. I'm not looking for a pissing competition here.
Cheers,
Zik
On 06/06/06, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Zik Saleeba <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Not really. Doing this with a microcontroller would be a piece of cake
>and would simplify the electronics. You could drive your 10x10 matrix
>of LEDs directly off a PIC microcontroller (say a 16F877a). You could
>do the whole thing with this one chip and a couple of passive
>components plus the LEDs.
Go for it, then! Figure out what the circuit needs to be, the parts count,
and what they cost.
(I'll bet the LM3914 circuilt uses less parts, costs less, and works better).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just went to a screening of this movie and it ROCKS!
Funniest part for me was the guy from the petroleum producers association
saying that electric cars were a terrible mistake that we must NEVER REPEAT
(guffaw!)
S. David Freeman figured very prominently as well. Neon John should know him
as he used to work for the TVA.
Of course Rev. Gadget's in there as well. God...whatta ham! That guy
certainly gets around. Where does he find the time to do all this stuff? Oh
yeah, he's got no kids. That explains it:^O
If you can see this movie, do it. I think it's out in general release June
28th. If you're out in the "real world" (i.e., not NY/LA) call your local
movie theatre and ask them to show it. It's being distributed by Sony
Classic Pictures.
MarvyMarv
Culver City, CA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No one has tried building and racing a boost controller, but
it has been proposed before. I suspect that the weight, cost, and
perhaps inefficiency, might outweigh the possible advantage, but I
could easily be wrong.
Someone should try it. Maybe it will work.
Bill Dube'
At 05:06 PM 6/4/2006, Jorg Brown wrote:
Well said, Bill, especially your note about the membership's 30-day comment
period.
One thing I've been curious about for some time is how the voltage is done.
As you've mentioned, the "nominal" voltage is clear for lead-acid but not so
clear for other chemistries, because other chemistries don't have as wide a
voltage range as lead-acid does.
But putting that question to the side, I've wondered if there is any thought
about what happens if a controller increases the voltage? Suppose I aim to
break the 24V records by using, say, 30 hawkers in two heavily parallel
packs of 15 each. Then I use a special step-up controller that takes my
voltage back up to, say, 240V. Is that still considered a 24V-class
vehicle?
And if that's considered a 240V vehicle, then what about AC drive? Do we
use RMS equivalence, the same way that 110VAC is really 311V peak-to-peak?
jorg
ps Personally I think it'd be better to use 30-sec peak power output (of the
batteries), instead of voltage, but that's a long discussion for some other
day.
On 6/3/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
New voltage divisions are very a good idea. As higher voltage packs
appear at the track, it is smart to have more divisions to keep them
from all bunching together in a single category.
Three important subject areas were not addressed in your
announcement, however.
1) What happens with the existing "A" voltage records? Will they be
re-assigned? When (if) these existing records are moved, will "second
place" records, previously set, move into their place? If folks have
the proper documentation, will records set in the past be allowed in
these new categories?
2) How will the voltage of other battery types be placed within these
divisions? The voltages in these divisions were designed for
"nominal" lead-acid voltages. The measured open-circuit voltage of
fully-charged lead-acid batteries is actually 13/12 times these
numbers. Would that be the voltage used for chemistries different
than lead-acid, or would some other formula be used?
3) Doesn't the NEDRA charter require a 30 day member comment period
before new rules go into effect? Since this new rule was just
announced, shouldn't the members have 30 days to comment before it
becomes official? To whom would members send their comments? Where
would the member comments be listed? Where would the answers to the
comments be listed?
Bill Dube'
At 05:11 AM 6/3/2006, you wrote:
>NEDRA is pleased to announce two new Voltage Divisions. Effectively
>immediately, we are adding two higher voltage divisions for a total
>of 12 in all. This means that there are more record setting
>opportunities for higher voltage vehicles beginning at the Power of
>DC event, this weekend at Hagerstown, Maryland. Please see the Power
>of DC site at http://www.powerofdc.com for all event details.
>
>We are seeing a major trend at the track toward higher voltages, so
>we wanted to provide some additional divisions for these higher
>voltage competitors. As the previously highest voltage division was
>designated "A", these two new divisions will be designated "A2" and
>"A3" respectively.
>
>All the NEDRA voltage divisions are currently based on multiples of
>nominal 12 volt batteries.
>
>New NEDRA Voltage Divisions
>----------------------------------
>Division A3 - 349 Volts and above
>Division A2 - 301 Volts - 348 Volts
>Division A - 241 Volts - 300 Volts
>Division B - 193 Volts - 240 Volts
>Division C - 169 Volts - 192 Volts
>Division D - 145 Volts - 168 Volts
>Division E - 121 Volts - 144 Volts
>Division F - 97 Volts - 120 Volts
>Division G - 73 Volts - 96 Volts
>Division H - 49 Volts - 72 Volts
>Division I - 25 Volts - 48 Volts
>Division J - 24 Volts and below
>
>All NEDRA record setters and record breakers receive a pair of
>Oakley Sunglasses.
>
>See you at the races!
>
>-Ken Trough
>NEDRA Public Relations
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"..Nowadays this term is often encountered in the variant spelling kludge
.."
http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/K/kluge.html
Steve Condie wrote:
Ahem. I believe that, properly stated, that would be a kluge (rhymes with
huge) not a kludge (rhymes with fudge.)
http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/K/kluge.html
Etymologically yours,
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jun 5, 2006, at 7:44 PM, Zik Saleeba wrote:
Not really. Doing this with a microcontroller would be a piece of cake
and would simplify the electronics.
Except you're not counting the thousands of semiconductor devices
(diodes, transistors, etc.) inside the PIC....
You could drive your 10x10 matrix
of LEDs directly off a PIC microcontroller (say a 16F877a). You could
do the whole thing with this one chip and a couple of passive
components plus the LEDs.
I understand the temptation to use a micro - I'm a computer geek
myself. But really, a micro is overkill for this device, which is just
a couple of voltmeters and an innovative display. The point, as Lee
was trying to explain, is that the display makes the device so much
"smarter" that it doesn't NEED a micro to do its job.
I'm not saying the PIC won't work. I'm not really even saying anything
about reliability, since I lack the experience to judge. I just don't
see the PIC as an elegant solution for implementing this meter.
Now, for the system that Jeff Shanab has been proposing (lots of smart
sensor nodes and a few display nodes on an in-car network) you will
need micros, and lots of them. A sack full of LEDs won't do the job.
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fair comment but these days microcontrollers are intended for exactly
these kinds of applications. It's easier to design, less external
components to go wrong, cheaper and usually more reliable.
The cheapest microcontrollers cost 50 cents in quantity and they're
commonly used for things as simple as making an LED flash. There's
basically no concept of overkill where microcontrollers are concerned
- they're cheap and small enough for the most menial of tasks. For
instance modern cars use a system called CAN which sends signals
around the car digitally and each cluster of instruments or lights
etc. has a tiny microcontroller which talks CAN on one side and turns
lights etc. on and off on the other side. This is much simpler and
cheaper than using an old style wiring loom since the one wire goes to
the whole car rather than having tens of different cable trails to get
wrong.
Now don't get me wrong - the discrete solution proposed for the
battery meter sounds very clever and elegant. I have no problem with
it. But personally I'd go with the reduced part count I'd get with a
PIC (and the lower costs etc).
1 x 16F913 microcontroller ($2.49 from microchip direct)
1 x 7805 regulator ($1)
100 x 3mm red LEDs ($2)
3 x decoupling capacitors (<$1)
2 x resistors for a voltage divider for the battery level (<10c)
That's it.
No need for a clock source (it's internal in the 16f913).
No need for current limiting resistors for the LEDs since the PIC can
drive them directly.
Comes with EEPROM so as a bonus the battery curve could be stored
through power-off if desired.
Cheers,
Zik
On 06/06/06, Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Jun 5, 2006, at 7:44 PM, Zik Saleeba wrote:
> Not really. Doing this with a microcontroller would be a piece of cake
> and would simplify the electronics.
Except you're not counting the thousands of semiconductor devices
(diodes, transistors, etc.) inside the PIC....
> You could drive your 10x10 matrix
> of LEDs directly off a PIC microcontroller (say a 16F877a). You could
> do the whole thing with this one chip and a couple of passive
> components plus the LEDs.
I understand the temptation to use a micro - I'm a computer geek
myself. But really, a micro is overkill for this device, which is just
a couple of voltmeters and an innovative display. The point, as Lee
was trying to explain, is that the display makes the device so much
"smarter" that it doesn't NEED a micro to do its job.
I'm not saying the PIC won't work. I'm not really even saying anything
about reliability, since I lack the experience to judge. I just don't
see the PIC as an elegant solution for implementing this meter.
Now, for the system that Jeff Shanab has been proposing (lots of smart
sensor nodes and a few display nodes on an in-car network) you will
need micros, and lots of them. A sack full of LEDs won't do the job.
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter, thanks for taking the time to reply.
On Jun 2, 2006, at 8:14 AM, Peter Shabino wrote:
First grab the data sheet at http://cache.national.com/ds/LM/LM3914.pdf
Got it. It's mostly understandable.
That will get you the basic hookup info for the chip. Now to get a X/Y
display you will need some extra parts. 10 10k resistors (5% 1/4W ok)
and 2 octal inverters (pick inverters that have a high state that can
drive you leds (push pull output not OC)).
to hook this up wire both LM3914 as normal except for the LEDs. Now on
the X LM3914 connect the banded (-) side of all leds to this chip (10
leds in each column x 10 columns). On the Y LM3914 connect the 10 10K
resistors between each output and +V. Also connect each output to one
input on a inverter. The output from the inverter to the (+) side of
one row of 10 leds.
How this works is each LM3914 connect its output to ground when its
"on". So for the X row we can just use it as the (-) side of the led.
If the output is "off" the pin will be floating and the LED will not
turn on. For the Y row we need a logic high at the led to turn it on.
Since the LM3914 can only drive a low we need to invert the signal to
turn on the led. The pull up resistor and inverter takes care of this.
OK, that seems pretty clear. Lee Hart and Joe Smalley (off list)
suggested transistors instead of the inverters.
I understand how the transistors work in this circuit, but I'm hazy on
the inverters. Would they need a separate power supply? I think the
transistors can be powered by the LM3914, which in turn is powered by
the voltage source that it's measuring.
What's your opinion?
If you would like a set of schematics or a board file let me know. I
have the layout tools and can work on it this weekend.
That seems a lot to ask, but I'd really like a schematic. I don't know
what I'd do with a board file, but others might. You can't post files
to the list, so how about posting them to www.evforge.net? Perhaps
make it an EV project there? Or send the files to me and I can post
them on my website for the rest of the list.
I have Eagle running, and Xcircuit shouldn't be far behind. Plus a
really slick-looking package for the Mac called MI-SUGAR. And of
course I can read PDFs. And ASCII :)
Thanks!
Later,
Wire
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael -
Just to echo what others have said: if this is your first car, by all means
use lead-acid batteries. I would even consider getting some used ones.
lead-acid is way, way easier to work with, and way cheaper. When I did my
first vehicle, it was just a 24V bicycle with 4 Hawkers. I still managed to
spot-weld my Leatherman to my controller!
Also, nilar is still new, so I doubt anyone has used them. For the reason
above, it's rare for anyone to use anything other than lead-acid. But you
might as well drop by their web page, click on Contacts, and give their
Colorado office a call. Couldn't hurt, right?
jorg
On 6/5/06, Michael Mohlere <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Exactly where can you purchase these nilar batteries? Has anyone used
them?
I'm starting on my first EV, and am considering using same if I can fit it
in my budget. Would like to get some feedback from anyone that has used
these batteries in their EV.
Thx, Mike
>From: "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Re: Question about NIMH patent(s)
>Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 03:03:12 -0700
>
>Don't forget Nilar (http://www.nilar.com/). In the neighborhood of twice
>as
>much range using their NiMH batteries, as lead-acid, and, if you stay
>within
>30%-90% SOC range, you could get in the hundreds of thousands of mileage
on
>your electric before you need to replace them.
>
>The 24V 10Ah Nilar NiMH battery costs about $200; it will deliver peak
>power
>of 2200W, from a battery weighing only 4.3kg (9 pounds) And it can be
>charged in half an hour.
>
>According to the open-source electric pages (
>http://www.onechip.co.uk/simon/electric/battery.html), a 12V 55Ah Optima
>D34
>costs $143.00, will deliver peak power of 8700W, from a battery weighing
>19.5kg (41 pounds), and can be recharged in as little as an hour.
>
>Now, let's say you wanted a 24V, 50Ah battery. You'd need 5 Nilars or 2
>Optimas.
>
>5 Nilars: $1000, peak power 11kW, weight 45 pounds, charge in half an
>hour... OR
>2 Optimas: $286, peak power 17.4kW, weight 82 pounds, charge in an hour.
>
>So, for the same range, they're 4 times more expensive, a third less
power,
>and only half the weight.
>
>Let's say instead that you had capacity in your car for 1,000 pounds (!)
of
>batteries. (i.e., Tango class) That'd get you 111 Nilars or 24 Optimas.
>
>111 Nilars: $22,000, peak power 244kW, weight 999 pounds, 26.6kW-Hrs,
>charge
>in half an hour... OR
>24 Optimas: $3,432, peak power 208kW, weight 984 pounds, 15.8kW-Hrs,
charge
>in an hour.
>
>Now here's the thing: the Nilars seem a lot more expensive here, but the
#
>cycles claimed means that they last way, way longer.
>
>Other people mentioned NiMH's high self-discharge rate. Well, high is
>relative. 1% per day may seem a lot for some applications, but if you
use
>your car a lot, it's not much at all. People who use an EV every day are
>charging it every day.
>
>I'd always wondered why none of the hybrid cars in the market use
anything
>other than NiMH. Especially when most popular consumer electronics
devices
>use Li-Ion or Li-Poly. I did find one very surprising thing about
Li-Ion,
>from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-Ion:
>
>A unique drawback of the Li-ion battery is that its life span is
dependent
>upon aging from time of manufacturing (shelf life) regardless of whether
it
>was charged, and not just on the number of charge/discharge cycles. This
>drawback is not widely publicized.
>
>At a 100% charge level, a typical Li-ion
>laptop<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laptop>battery that's full most of
>the time at 25 degrees
>Celsius <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celsius>, will irreversibly lose
>approximately 20% capacity per year. This capacity loss begins from the
>time
>it was manufactured, and occurs even when the battery is unused.
Different
>storage temperatures produce different loss results: 6% loss at 0 °C, 20%
>at
>25 °C, and 35% at 40 °C. When stored at 40% charge level, these figures
are
>reduced to 2%, 4%, 15% at 0, 25 and 40 degrees Celsius respectively.
>
>I don't know about you, but if I had to choose between a 20% loss of
>*capacity* per year, and a 1% loss of *charge* per day, I'll take the
loss
>of charge. Even if I used the full 26kWHrs of a 1,000-pound NiMH
battery,
>that's only 260WHrs per day. Even at California's 14c/kWHr electric
rates,
>that's a whopping 4 cents per day. [Yes, I know about CA's nighttime EV
>discount that brings it down to 5c/kWHr]
>Of course, the elephant in the room, that no one talks about, is charging
>systems. Manufacturers like Toyota buy their batteries from suppliers,
but
>design their own chargers. For lead-acid, chargers are easy. For
anything
>else, it's a lot more complicated because it's so hard to figure out what
>your state-of-charge is.
>
>A smaller elephant-in-the-room is that almost no one will tell you what
>their prices are, in small quantities. Well, the lead-acid guys will (or
>they have lists of resellers that will). And maybe someone will tell you
>what their price is for AA NiMH cells, or LiIon 18650s. But the larger
>sizes? You have to beg and plead, unless perhaps you're the city of
Denver
>and you're building a fleet of EV buses. Sheesh!
>
>As far as the whole Chevron-Texaco rights & patents situation... can we
all
>please dispense with the conspiracy theories? Big Oil knows very well
that
>the days of low-priced oil dominating the world transportation energy
>market
>are over, and the days of high-priced oil dominating the market will
never
>arrive. Medium-priced oil will drive a transition, and they need to have
a
>foothold in whatever comes next - electric batteries, fuel cells,
85E. So
>of course some of them are going to be buying battery patents. If you
>think
>that Chevron/Texaco are blocking adoption of NiMH batteries, then you're
>blind to the fact that NiMH currently dominates the field.
>
>Anyway, I'm starting to ramble. Hope this helps. Anyone know what the
>"list price" is on Cobasys batts?
>
>jorg
>
>
>On 5/16/06, Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>Uncertain. Chevron-Texaco owns rights to Ovhinovski's
>>design, IIRC. SAFT has a NiMH product out, too.
>>Hope that helps in your search, though I think LiPo
>>will run over them way before patents end...
>>
>>
>>--- Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi
>> >
>> > Does anybody know the date on the NIMH patent(s)?
>> > I'm curious how
>> > long they can tie up this technology... I don't
>> > remember how long
>> > they have exclusive rights, but I think there is a
>> > time limit!
>> >
>> > One of these days their patent rights are gonna
>> > expire and then it'll
>> > be open season on auto size NIMH battery packs! I
>> > can't wait...can we
>> > speed up the process?
>> >
>> > thanks
>> > T
>> >
>> > __________________________________________________
>> > Do You Yahoo!?
>> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
>> > protection around
>> > http://mail.yahoo.com
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
>>has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
>>Learn more at:
>>www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
>> ____
>> __/__|__\ __
>> =D-------/ - - \
>> 'O'-----'O'-'
>>Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
>>wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>>
>>__________________________________________________
>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jun 2, 2006, at 11:05 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
Doug Weathers wrote:
Very clever! Could I trouble you (or someone) for a simple circuit
diagram that shows how to light an LED only if two outputs are on?
The circuit is very simple.....
Thanks, Lee, you make it sound simple. I'm inspired to try to build it.
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jorg -
Thanks for the input. I did send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED], so we'll see
what comes of it. I would love to break some new ground with my EV project
(perhaps by using the nilars) - it's just my nature!!! Many thanks for your
input - I think this list is AWESOME, and Steve Clunn is an absolute captain
of the cause, as he has put up w/ every question that I have had so far. I
really wish to have an EV that people can "ooh and ahh" over from a
performance standpoint, which I believe will go a long way to
advancing/promoting the cause.
Anyone know of any EVers in my neck of the woods (Huntsville, AL)????
Thx, Mike
From: "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Question about NIMH patent(s)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 19:49:07 -0700
Michael -
Just to echo what others have said: if this is your first car, by all means
use lead-acid batteries. I would even consider getting some used ones.
lead-acid is way, way easier to work with, and way cheaper. When I did my
first vehicle, it was just a 24V bicycle with 4 Hawkers. I still managed
to
spot-weld my Leatherman to my controller!
Also, nilar is still new, so I doubt anyone has used them. For the reason
above, it's rare for anyone to use anything other than lead-acid. But you
might as well drop by their web page, click on Contacts, and give their
Colorado office a call. Couldn't hurt, right?
jorg
On 6/5/06, Michael Mohlere <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Exactly where can you purchase these nilar batteries? Has anyone used
them?
I'm starting on my first EV, and am considering using same if I can fit it
in my budget. Would like to get some feedback from anyone that has used
these batteries in their EV.
Thx, Mike
>From: "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Re: Question about NIMH patent(s)
>Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 03:03:12 -0700
>
>Don't forget Nilar (http://www.nilar.com/). In the neighborhood of
twice
>as
>much range using their NiMH batteries, as lead-acid, and, if you stay
>within
>30%-90% SOC range, you could get in the hundreds of thousands of mileage
on
>your electric before you need to replace them.
>
>The 24V 10Ah Nilar NiMH battery costs about $200; it will deliver peak
>power
>of 2200W, from a battery weighing only 4.3kg (9 pounds) And it can be
>charged in half an hour.
>
>According to the open-source electric pages (
>http://www.onechip.co.uk/simon/electric/battery.html), a 12V 55Ah Optima
>D34
>costs $143.00, will deliver peak power of 8700W, from a battery weighing
>19.5kg (41 pounds), and can be recharged in as little as an hour.
>
>Now, let's say you wanted a 24V, 50Ah battery. You'd need 5 Nilars or 2
>Optimas.
>
>5 Nilars: $1000, peak power 11kW, weight 45 pounds, charge in half an
>hour... OR
>2 Optimas: $286, peak power 17.4kW, weight 82 pounds, charge in an hour.
>
>So, for the same range, they're 4 times more expensive, a third less
power,
>and only half the weight.
>
>Let's say instead that you had capacity in your car for 1,000 pounds (!)
of
>batteries. (i.e., Tango class) That'd get you 111 Nilars or 24 Optimas.
>
>111 Nilars: $22,000, peak power 244kW, weight 999 pounds, 26.6kW-Hrs,
>charge
>in half an hour... OR
>24 Optimas: $3,432, peak power 208kW, weight 984 pounds, 15.8kW-Hrs,
charge
>in an hour.
>
>Now here's the thing: the Nilars seem a lot more expensive here, but the
#
>cycles claimed means that they last way, way longer.
>
>Other people mentioned NiMH's high self-discharge rate. Well, high is
>relative. 1% per day may seem a lot for some applications, but if you
use
>your car a lot, it's not much at all. People who use an EV every day
are
>charging it every day.
>
>I'd always wondered why none of the hybrid cars in the market use
anything
>other than NiMH. Especially when most popular consumer electronics
devices
>use Li-Ion or Li-Poly. I did find one very surprising thing about
Li-Ion,
>from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-Ion:
>
>A unique drawback of the Li-ion battery is that its life span is
dependent
>upon aging from time of manufacturing (shelf life) regardless of whether
it
>was charged, and not just on the number of charge/discharge cycles. This
>drawback is not widely publicized.
>
>At a 100% charge level, a typical Li-ion
>laptop<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laptop>battery that's full most of
>the time at 25 degrees
>Celsius <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celsius>, will irreversibly lose
>approximately 20% capacity per year. This capacity loss begins from the
>time
>it was manufactured, and occurs even when the battery is unused.
Different
>storage temperatures produce different loss results: 6% loss at 0 °C,
20%
>at
>25 °C, and 35% at 40 °C. When stored at 40% charge level, these figures
are
>reduced to 2%, 4%, 15% at 0, 25 and 40 degrees Celsius respectively.
>
>I don't know about you, but if I had to choose between a 20% loss of
>*capacity* per year, and a 1% loss of *charge* per day, I'll take the
loss
>of charge. Even if I used the full 26kWHrs of a 1,000-pound NiMH
battery,
>that's only 260WHrs per day. Even at California's 14c/kWHr electric
rates,
>that's a whopping 4 cents per day. [Yes, I know about CA's nighttime EV
>discount that brings it down to 5c/kWHr]
>Of course, the elephant in the room, that no one talks about, is
charging
>systems. Manufacturers like Toyota buy their batteries from suppliers,
but
>design their own chargers. For lead-acid, chargers are easy. For
anything
>else, it's a lot more complicated because it's so hard to figure out
what
>your state-of-charge is.
>
>A smaller elephant-in-the-room is that almost no one will tell you what
>their prices are, in small quantities. Well, the lead-acid guys will
(or
>they have lists of resellers that will). And maybe someone will tell
you
>what their price is for AA NiMH cells, or LiIon 18650s. But the larger
>sizes? You have to beg and plead, unless perhaps you're the city of
Denver
>and you're building a fleet of EV buses. Sheesh!
>
>As far as the whole Chevron-Texaco rights & patents situation... can we
all
>please dispense with the conspiracy theories? Big Oil knows very well
that
>the days of low-priced oil dominating the world transportation energy
>market
>are over, and the days of high-priced oil dominating the market will
never
>arrive. Medium-priced oil will drive a transition, and they need to
have
a
>foothold in whatever comes next - electric batteries, fuel cells,
85E. So
>of course some of them are going to be buying battery patents. If you
>think
>that Chevron/Texaco are blocking adoption of NiMH batteries, then you're
>blind to the fact that NiMH currently dominates the field.
>
>Anyway, I'm starting to ramble. Hope this helps. Anyone know what the
>"list price" is on Cobasys batts?
>
>jorg
>
>
>On 5/16/06, Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>Uncertain. Chevron-Texaco owns rights to Ovhinovski's
>>design, IIRC. SAFT has a NiMH product out, too.
>>Hope that helps in your search, though I think LiPo
>>will run over them way before patents end...
>>
>>
>>--- Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi
>> >
>> > Does anybody know the date on the NIMH patent(s)?
>> > I'm curious how
>> > long they can tie up this technology... I don't
>> > remember how long
>> > they have exclusive rights, but I think there is a
>> > time limit!
>> >
>> > One of these days their patent rights are gonna
>> > expire and then it'll
>> > be open season on auto size NIMH battery packs! I
>> > can't wait...can we
>> > speed up the process?
>> >
>> > thanks
>> > T
>> >
>> > __________________________________________________
>> > Do You Yahoo!?
>> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
>> > protection around
>> > http://mail.yahoo.com
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
>>has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
>>Learn more at:
>>www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
>> ____
>> __/__|__\ __
>> =D-------/ - - \
>> 'O'-----'O'-'
>>Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
>>wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>>
>>__________________________________________________
>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike wrote:
<SNIP>
Anyone know of any EVers in my neck of the woods (Huntsville, AL)????
The EV Album shows two in Alabama, Gary Dion in Madison and Donnie
Riner in Muscle Shoals.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/29
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/55
In case you haven't seen it, the revised Album has a search by
location feature.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since this PIC is measuring voltage and current, could it not also be used to
control a charger?
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated, it
develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
send a request to ryan at evsourcecom
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Zik Saleeba
> Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 2:19 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
>
> Fair comment but these days microcontrollers are intended for exactly these
> kinds of applications. It's easier to design, less external components to go
> wrong, cheaper and usually more reliable.
>
> The cheapest microcontrollers cost 50 cents in quantity and they're commonly
> used for things as simple as making an LED flash. There's basically no
> concept of overkill where microcontrollers are concerned
> - they're cheap and small enough for the most menial of tasks. For instance
> modern cars use a system called CAN which sends signals around the car
> digitally and each cluster of instruments or lights etc. has a tiny
> microcontroller which talks CAN on one side and turns lights etc. on and off
> on the other side. This is much simpler and cheaper than using an old style
> wiring loom since the one wire goes to the whole car rather than having tens
> of different cable trails to get wrong.
>
> Now don't get me wrong - the discrete solution proposed for the battery
> meter sounds very clever and elegant. I have no problem with it. But
> personally I'd go with the reduced part count I'd get with a PIC (and the
> lower costs etc).
>
> 1 x 16F913 microcontroller ($2.49 from microchip direct)
> 1 x 7805 regulator ($1)
> 100 x 3mm red LEDs ($2)
> 3 x decoupling capacitors (<$1)
> 2 x resistors for a voltage divider for the battery level (<10c)
>
> That's it.
>
> No need for a clock source (it's internal in the 16f913).
> No need for current limiting resistors for the LEDs since the PIC can drive
> them directly.
> Comes with EEPROM so as a bonus the battery curve could be stored through
> power-off if desired.
>
> Cheers,
> Zik
>
> On 06/06/06, Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> On Jun 5, 2006, at 7:44 PM, Zik Saleeba wrote:
>>
>> > Not really. Doing this with a microcontroller would be a piece of
>> > cake and would simplify the electronics.
>>
>> Except you're not counting the thousands of semiconductor devices
>> (diodes, transistors, etc.) inside the PIC....
>>
>> > You could drive your 10x10 matrix
>> > of LEDs directly off a PIC microcontroller (say a 16F877a). You
>> > could do the whole thing with this one chip and a couple of passive
>> > components plus the LEDs.
>>
>> I understand the temptation to use a micro - I'm a computer geek
>> myself. But really, a micro is overkill for this device, which is
>> just a couple of voltmeters and an innovative display. The point, as
>> Lee was trying to explain, is that the display makes the device so
>> much "smarter" that it doesn't NEED a micro to do its job.
>>
>> I'm not saying the PIC won't work. I'm not really even saying
>> anything about reliability, since I lack the experience to judge. I
>> just don't see the PIC as an elegant solution for implementing this meter.
>>
>> Now, for the system that Jeff Shanab has been proposing (lots of smart
>> sensor nodes and a few display nodes on an in-car network) you will
>> need micros, and lots of them. A sack full of LEDs won't do the job.
>>
>> --
>> Doug Weathers
>> Las Cruces, NM, USA
>> <http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry folks. The "Washington Post Insult to Injury" message was
supposed to go the EVA/DC Yahoo Group. I inadvertently sent it to the
EVDL.
I need to be careful when both lists start with "ev" and are next to
each other on my address list. Oooops.
Chip Gribben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jorg, where did you get the cost of $200 per unit?
Do you know if they are in production with these batteries or is this
another investor gathering web site?
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jorg Brown
Sent: June 3, 2006 3:03 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Question about NIMH patent(s)
Don't forget Nilar (http://www.nilar.com/). In the neighborhood of twice as
much range using their NiMH batteries, as lead-acid, and, if you stay within
30%-90% SOC range, you could get in the hundreds of thousands of mileage on
your electric before you need to replace them.
The 24V 10Ah Nilar NiMH battery costs about $200; it will deliver peak power
of 2200W, from a battery weighing only 4.3kg (9 pounds) And it can be
charged in half an hour.
According to the open-source electric pages (
http://www.onechip.co.uk/simon/electric/battery.html), a 12V 55Ah Optima D34
costs $143.00, will deliver peak power of 8700W, from a battery weighing
19.5kg (41 pounds), and can be recharged in as little as an hour.
Now, let's say you wanted a 24V, 50Ah battery. You'd need 5 Nilars or 2
Optimas.
5 Nilars: $1000, peak power 11kW, weight 45 pounds, charge in half an
hour... OR
2 Optimas: $286, peak power 17.4kW, weight 82 pounds, charge in an hour.
So, for the same range, they're 4 times more expensive, a third less power,
and only half the weight.
Let's say instead that you had capacity in your car for 1,000 pounds (!) of
batteries. (i.e., Tango class) That'd get you 111 Nilars or 24 Optimas.
111 Nilars: $22,000, peak power 244kW, weight 999 pounds, 26.6kW-Hrs, charge
in half an hour... OR
24 Optimas: $3,432, peak power 208kW, weight 984 pounds, 15.8kW-Hrs, charge
in an hour.
Now here's the thing: the Nilars seem a lot more expensive here, but the #
cycles claimed means that they last way, way longer.
Other people mentioned NiMH's high self-discharge rate. Well, high is
relative. 1% per day may seem a lot for some applications, but if you use
your car a lot, it's not much at all. People who use an EV every day are
charging it every day.
I'd always wondered why none of the hybrid cars in the market use anything
other than NiMH. Especially when most popular consumer electronics devices
use Li-Ion or Li-Poly. I did find one very surprising thing about Li-Ion,
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-Ion:
A unique drawback of the Li-ion battery is that its life span is dependent
upon aging from time of manufacturing (shelf life) regardless of whether it
was charged, and not just on the number of charge/discharge cycles. This
drawback is not widely publicized.
At a 100% charge level, a typical Li-ion
laptop<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laptop>battery that's full most of the
time at 25 degrees Celsius <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celsius>, will
irreversibly lose approximately 20% capacity per year. This capacity loss
begins from the time it was manufactured, and occurs even when the battery
is unused. Different storage temperatures produce different loss results: 6%
loss at 0 °C, 20% at
25 °C, and 35% at 40 °C. When stored at 40% charge level, these figures are
reduced to 2%, 4%, 15% at 0, 25 and 40 degrees Celsius respectively.
I don't know about you, but if I had to choose between a 20% loss of
*capacity* per year, and a 1% loss of *charge* per day, I'll take the loss
of charge. Even if I used the full 26kWHrs of a 1,000-pound NiMH battery,
that's only 260WHrs per day. Even at California's 14c/kWHr electric rates,
that's a whopping 4 cents per day. [Yes, I know about CA's nighttime EV
discount that brings it down to 5c/kWHr] Of course, the elephant in the
room, that no one talks about, is charging systems. Manufacturers like
Toyota buy their batteries from suppliers, but design their own chargers.
For lead-acid, chargers are easy. For anything else, it's a lot more
complicated because it's so hard to figure out what your state-of-charge is.
A smaller elephant-in-the-room is that almost no one will tell you what
their prices are, in small quantities. Well, the lead-acid guys will (or
they have lists of resellers that will). And maybe someone will tell you
what their price is for AA NiMH cells, or LiIon 18650s. But the larger
sizes? You have to beg and plead, unless perhaps you're the city of Denver
and you're building a fleet of EV buses. Sheesh!
As far as the whole Chevron-Texaco rights & patents situation... can we all
please dispense with the conspiracy theories? Big Oil knows very well that
the days of low-priced oil dominating the world transportation energy market
are over, and the days of high-priced oil dominating the market will never
arrive. Medium-priced oil will drive a transition, and they need to have a
foothold in whatever comes next - electric batteries, fuel cells, 85E. So
of course some of them are going to be buying battery patents. If you think
that Chevron/Texaco are blocking adoption of NiMH batteries, then you're
blind to the fact that NiMH currently dominates the field.
Anyway, I'm starting to ramble. Hope this helps. Anyone know what the
"list price" is on Cobasys batts?
jorg
On 5/16/06, Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Uncertain. Chevron-Texaco owns rights to Ovhinovski's design, IIRC.
> SAFT has a NiMH product out, too.
> Hope that helps in your search, though I think LiPo will run over them
> way before patents end...
>
>
> --- Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > Does anybody know the date on the NIMH patent(s)?
> > I'm curious how
> > long they can tie up this technology... I don't remember how long
> > they have exclusive rights, but I think there is a time limit!
> >
> > One of these days their patent rights are gonna expire and then
> > it'll be open season on auto size NIMH battery packs! I can't
> > wait...can we speed up the process?
> >
> > thanks
> > T
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
> Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD has my '92 sedan,
> as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> Learn more at:
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the
> steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
> Is it that hard to make a battery? Say a 100ah Nimh cell. Anyone ever
> tried? Anyone ever cut one open? With battery cost on the increase, I
> am exploring making them.
It isn't hard to make a poor battery; but it's hard to make a good one.
You need to learn 100+ years of technology. There are books that
describe the basic processes, and you can read patents to learn some of
the "tricks". Then, like learning to play the piano, it takes a lot of
practice.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Sorry but this is not going to work, as the switchers power
> totally different circuits
Ok; understood.
> The only good way is to take a multi-voltage switcher, usually
> specified for 100-240V AC, which has at least 10% margin so
> the input must be able to withstand 265V AC and after rectifying
> this gives 375V.
If your pack really will hit 400vdc occasionally, you'll have to look
for a switcher that has higher voltage capacitors, diodes, and
transistors. 400vdc parts might work when new, cool, and clean; but will
degrade over time. If you can't find one with higher voltage parts, I
suppose you can replace them with higher voltage parts. A couple
start-up resistors will probably also have to be increased in value.
I like Otmar's suggestion of using a zener or other voltage dropping
device in series with the input. If these are low power converters,
you're only talking about a few watts of heat.
> The upper voltage range of at least 400V means that it is safe
> to connect the two switchers directly (and in parallel) to the
> 312V pack of a US Electricar truck.
A 312v nominal lead-acid pack will reach 390v at 2.5v/cell. That is
essentially a ZERO safety margin for 400v parts. Remember that those
"400v" ratings are *absolute maximums*, not continuous operating
voltages!
> The power supplies can be wired together through one fuse of
> at least 1A, preferably even a bit more (2 or 3A) to avoid
> nuisance trips due to inrush current peaks.
Most inexpensive supplies have negligible inrush protection. 10-20 amp
peaks are common. They only put in barely enough inrush protection so it
won't trip a 15 amp circuit breaker. It will almost certainly take out a
1 amp fuse.
This is another reason for Otmar's series zener idea. It will reduce the
inrush current, as well as reduce the voltage stress on an off-the-shelf
supply.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
