EV Digest 5551
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Zilla Z1K - Best Choice?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Need Advice -- Gel pack rejuvenation plan
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Zilla Z1K - Best Choice?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Zilla Z1K - Best Choice?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Nilars, etc...
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) FW: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Zilla Z1K - Best Choice?Trains trolleys and Curti.
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Zilla Z1K - Best Choice Rambler?
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Zilla Z1K - Best Choice?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Zilla Z1K - Best Choice?
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Zilla Z1K - Best Choice Rambler?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: PIC programing (was) LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by "Peter Shabino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Need Advice -- Gel pack rejuvenation plan
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Three questions (was: Announcement of new NEDRA Voltage Divi
sions)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Zilla Z1K - Best Choice Rambler?
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Zilla Z1K - Best Choice Rambler?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Electric/EV basic knowledge
by Patrick Clarke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Alan Geenspan breifing US senate commitee on EVs
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Shabino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 12:24 AM
Subject: RE: Zilla Z1K - Best Choice?
> So what are you going to do with the dead body?
>
> Sorry but my dumpster diveing side is kicking in ;)
>
> Don't throw it away. I think Golf Tech fixes them, as well as Curtis,
themselves? I think thery upgrade them for more amps, but it isn't cheap.Hit
them up on line.
Seeya
Bob>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here are two predictions:
1. You will be unable to draw even 2 amps from the power supply because some
or all of the batteries are open circuits.
2. You will be unable to limit the current into the batteries because some
of them refuse to go above 10 volts.
A better choice would be to connect each battery in series with a 100 watt
120 VAC light bulb, a >200PIV 3 amp diode (cathode toward the battery
positive) and a 120 VAC source. The light bulb will come on with any
battery that conducts. As the acid returns to solution, the voltage across
the battery will return to normal (12 to 14 volts). Once the battery voltage
stabilizes in this range, it can be incorporated into a series string for
charging.
Once each battery passes the light bulb test, it can be put into a string
and charged. Monitor the batteries in the series string to make sure they
don't go over 15 volts nor 90F. Turn the current down to keep them under
these limits.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Meta Bus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 2:28 PM
Subject: Need Advice -- Gel pack rejuvenation plan
> I have a string of buddy pairs, 8G31DT (size 31 gel 12v Deka
> Dominators), which are currently dead-flat, and have been lying in that
> state for months. I am going to attempt to bring them back from the
> dead, and get some useful percentage of a SOC-- I'll be happy if I can
> recover 25% of their original 200ah (paired) nominal 20-hour capacity.
>
> The string of 24 paralleled pairs (288v) have a manufacturer-recommended
> bulk charge rate of 14.1v (at 68f), which equates to 338.4v. I am
> attempting this recovery in Florida, intending an overnight charge for
> several nights (low amperage), where I expect an average temp of around
> 76-78f-- which lowers my target bulk voltage to around 14v max (per
> Deka's temp/charge range chart).
>
> The 10kw charger I inherited is dead too, so...
>
> I am resorting to a nice PFC desktop supply, which gives me a steady
> 351.9vdc, and is rated for a maximum of around 1300 watts (with 110vac
> input, which is what I'll be employing). [I feel more comfortable with
> this lower-power supply than trying to pour 10kw into the dead pack,
anyway]
>
> Assuming the PFC supply is 80% efficient (it proclaims a power factor of
> 0.995 at full load), that means I will be offering around 3 amps to the
> string-of-resistors-formerly-known-as-a-battery-pack. I will, however,
> also be a good half-volt over-voltage, which concerns me.
>
> If necessary, I could throw another battery pair onto the string, which
> would make my constant-voltage PFC match up almost perfectly, but I am
> curious if over-voltage might actually help recover from the sulphation
> which no doubt threatens to stratify my string.
>
> Before I hook all this up and throw the switch (open my pack relays and
> then turn my little PFC loose), can someone help me predict what to
expect?
>
> Thanks.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With a price difference of only 200 dollars the Zilla is a no brainer.
LR.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 7:29 PM
Subject: Re: Zilla Z1K - Best Choice?
"Mueller, Craig M" wrote:
I just had a Curtis 1221B-7401 bite the dust (caps dried out?), and am
looking to increase voltage from 120V to 144-160V (20 8V). I hear that
the Curtis 1231 controller makes an audible sound, and there are no
control features similar to the Zilla... Opinion time: Zilla owners - is
it worth the $$ - esp if your goal is good performance *and* battery
life. Curtis owners: Is there really a 'whine', or has the problem been
solved?
The Curtis -C controllers (1221C and 1231C) run at 1 KHz when you first
start out, at very low current and voltage (1-2 mph). Above this, they
revert to their usual 15 KHz.
The controller doesn't make any noise, but the motor may. It's the motor
that is acting as the "loudspeaker". I find my Advanced DC L91 6.7"
motor is pretty quiet. Others have said the Advanced DC 9" motor is
rather loud. Also, people's tolerance for the noise varies -- some hate
any sound, others don't mind it or even find it useful (pedestrian
warner -- this car is about to move!)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The 1221B can be rebuilt for about 400 dollars. LR..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Shabino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 9:24 PM
Subject: RE: Zilla Z1K - Best Choice?
So what are you going to do with the dead body?
Sorry but my dumpster diveing side is kicking in ;)
Later,
Wire
From: "Mueller, Craig M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Zilla Z1K - Best Choice?
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 19:04:58 -0500
I just had a Curtis 1221B-7401 bite the dust (caps dried out?), and am
looking to increase voltage from 120V to 144-160V (20 8V). I hear that
the Curtis 1231 controller makes an audible sound, and there are no
control features similar to the Zilla... Opinion time: Zilla owners - is
it worth the $$ - esp if your goal is good performance *and* battery
life. Curtis owners: Is there really a 'whine', or has the problem been
solved?
Thanks,
Craig
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Mohlere" <
I would love to break some new ground with my EV project
(perhaps by using the nilars) - it's just my nature!!!
At this time almost any project done with the standard parts , will for most
be ground braking . You don't have to do it all on your first Ev , getting
your first on the road as fast as possible so you can find out all the funny
details about EV's that right now you haven't yet experienced. As a gas car
driver your driving skills have little to do with your mileage , but with an
Ev how you drive , can make as much of a difference that what kind of
batteries your using .
Many thanks for your
input - I think this list is AWESOME, and Steve Clunn is an absolute
captain of the cause,
And as soon as your driving your car around , there will be people asking
you questions , and wanting your help , I may be wrong , but their's a good
chance you'll have that EV grin going on . Ya the one where you walk around
with the big smile that makes your face ach for days .
as he has put up w/ every question that I have had so far.
As I have done the car your thinking of , its no big deal , and like most
on the list , nothing makes me happier than to see another Ev on the road .
I
really wish to have an EV that people can "ooh and ahh" over from a
performance standpoint, which I believe will go a long way to
advancing/promoting the cause.
I was oohing and ahhhing a reporter with some tire smoking burn outs with my
EV race truck , when my tranny started making a new sound , but I built it
for that so I'll deal with it , with my EV work truck I drive it nice and
easy all the time , cus I got to get to work all the time . I would make
your first EV , one that just gets the job down., a 1k 300v zilla with
orbitals or 156v with golf cart batteries and 9 impulse would give some
tire smoking ooh's but a 2k zilla would be hard on that small terecell
tranny for sure.
Steve Clunn . deck hand
Anyone know of any EVers in my neck of the woods (Huntsville, AL)????
Thx, Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just ordered a replacement meter movement for the MFJ-817 from MFJ
Enterprises http://www.mfjenterprises.com. Its a 3" panel meter and is
$21.95 + 9$ Shippng. I couldn't find a real dual movement "cross-needle"
automotive meter but I'll keep looking. This one will do fine in the
meantime.
Mike
Anchorage, Ak.
-----Original Message-----
Doug Weathers wrote
>>I should be more specific: does anyone have any other suggestions for a
>>cross-needle automotive gauge that would be suitable for this
>>application? Preferably something less expensive than a Link-10 and
>>with more usable space than the Westach meter.
Lee Hart wrote
>Actually, I agree. The main stumbling block with the twin analog meter
>approach is that such meters are somewhat scarce, and the crossed
>pointers somewhat hard to read unless you get a really nice meter, like
>the ones used in older aircraft.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Hi EVerybody;
>
> Bill said it all on the Zilla! I have been in an' out of this EV
stuff
> for nearly 40 years. The Zilla is/was an answer to a DREAM of years ago.
>
<major snippage>
> I guess if your on a tight budget, and
> don't drag race you can live with a Curtis there sure are a bunch of
them
> out there.But the Zilla is LIGHT years ahead in design. Ya get what
you pay
> for.,
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>
It appears the best car for Bob to convert would be a Rambler ;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Microchip now offers up their "Student Edition" of their very effective
C compiler "MCC18" for free. That's for the PIC18F series. There's a
separate Student Edition MCC30 for the dsPIC30F/33F series. Common
misconception is that the dsPIC series is best for digital signal
processing. In fact it's a powerful 16-bit architecture (16F/18F are
8-bit), can be low power, and quite reasonably priced. It's a good
choice for many all-around programming tasks.
Microchip offers no C compiler for the PIC16 series. HTSoft does, but I
get the impression it's kind of a hack job. A central problem is that
the PIC16 core is not very C-friendly. PIC18 series is fairly cheap now
and comes with lots of useful features not found in the PIC16 series
anyways.
Best programmer/ICD2 is actually the Olimex one IMHO. $99, but it
really is the best. It's an exact clone of Microchip's own programmer
so both the computer's programming software and the device's firmware
updates come straight from Microchip. Considering Microchip wants many
$100's for their device it's a great choice. Also a very safe bet that
it'll be able to program any new PIC too. And it's an ICD device here.
I actually haven't gotten into using it as an ICD but I've heard people
swear by its usefulness in this area. It allows you to snoop into the
chip's registers while running to figure out what's actually going on in
order to debug the chip.
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=5
Danny
Peter Shabino wrote:
Just for others referance.
You can get the IDE from microchip for free ASM language only (real
men program in assembly).
For a programer you can get a DIY K149 kit (serial or USB connection
back to the PC) for about $50 programs every pic I have tried to use
plus other micros and eeproms. If you looking at getting started
playing with Pics I would highly recomend this route. I have used this
kit for apx 5 years and its still going strong (I actualy like it
better than the programer I have at work and it was $600).
later,
Peter
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Death to All Spammers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> It appears the best car for Bob to convert would be a Rambler ;)
>
Hmmmm, a Rambler. If I remember correctly, they were a smaller than average car
for the time. Had
plenty of room inside. Available as sedan or wagon. I doubt they were light
weight. Probably
(maybe) built on a frame, good for loading with batteries. And I know some of
they had hot rod V8s
in them. Might actually be a pretty good vintage car for conversion. Somewhat
innocuous at first
sight, but when the tires start smoking ....
I'm keeping my eyes open.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
YES!
I have found it is more than just a controller. The hairball contains
the check engine light, stored error codes and takes control of the main
contactor and shuts down the power if there is a fault. On par with the
ECM in your ICE.
Otmar makes a heck of a controller, he is accessable, and he stands
behind what he builds. Otmar is not done, he has stubbed out for cruise
control and he has the dual motor switching and reversing in there for
the dual motor/direct drive option also.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The floating ball would be a really cool looking instrument (an electric
eye LOL)
How would you handle the fact that as the first coil moves the ball up,
the 90 degree need is now at a different spot?
if you had a single small magnet in the ball and suffiently large
diameter coils, I could see viewing the magnet as a point in the xy
plane created by the 2 coils, but it wouldn't be linear and it would be
limited in it's range of motion. I am not familiar with the
characteristics of these but would we just use a limited range of
rotation and skew the painted lines on the ball to compensate for the
non-linerity?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On a side note about using PIC micro's There are loads of free
simulators, free software, and low cost build it yourself programmers
for PIC.
One of the PIC books I got(mike or mark predo, ok but not great author)
comes with a board that you populate and links to free software, but I
found better software.
windows :
http://www.oshonsoft.com/
this software is great for the price.
linux : gpsim : http://www.dattalo.com/gnupic/gpsim.html
C programming the PIC : http://www.yty.net/pic/
yapide : http://www.mtoussaint.de/yapide.html
the list goes on, something about PIC microcontrollers fits with the
linux crowd.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
good list Bill , I'd add
7 being able to set motor volts, battery volts , battery amps and motor
amp.
Opinion time: Zilla owners - is
it worth the $$ - esp if your goal is good performance *and* battery
life. Curtis owners: Is there really a 'whine', or has the problem been
solved?
You can set your battery amp low and still get full 1000 amps at the motor ,
when rpm is low like taking off , giving both good performance and good
battery life.
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 12:38 AM
Subject: Re: Zilla Z1K - Best Choice?
If you are squeezing every penny, go for the Curtis.
The extra you will pay for the Zilla 1K is certainly well worth it,
however. Here are just some of the things that make it worth the extra
money:
1) Built in pre-charge circuit. Saves your controller and contactor from
damage.
2) "Valet" mode. You can switch select an entirely different set of
operation parameters.
3) "Check engine" light with trouble codes. Blinks out a code that tells
you what is wrong.
4) "RPM Limit" keeps you from ruining your motor from a missed gear or
inept driver.
5) Output battery current on your existing tach (or motor RPM. You pick.)
6) The unit checks to make sure the main contactor really did open up when
you turn off the key.
One of the reasons that you see Zilla Controllers in the fastest
EV cars is that they rarely break. The racers blow up controllers until
they buy a Zilla. Then they don't have to buy something else. :-)
Bill Dube'
At 06:04 PM 6/6/2006, you wrote:
I just had a Curtis 1221B-7401 bite the dust (caps dried out?), and am
looking to increase voltage from 120V to 144-160V (20 8V). I hear that
the Curtis 1231 controller makes an audible sound, and there are no
control features similar to the Zilla... >>
Thanks,
Craig
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Being able to install a lookup table etc would make my EV life easier.
I only know ancient BASIC. So then I have to try and tackle C to get
into uP's? I know there is the basic stamp, but I need something small
like in an 8 pin DIP that I can learn to program. Is there a Pic or
Atmel guide for pack smokin' Ultra Dummy's?
A small uP would allow me to make a very adjustable and communicative
bms as well as a monitoring system. Not to mention thermal fan hardware.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On a side note about using PIC micro's There are loads of free
> simulators, free software, and low cost build it yourself programmers
> for PIC.
>
> One of the PIC books I got(mike or mark predo, ok but not great author)
> comes with a board that you populate and links to free software, but I
> found better software.
>
> windows :
>
> http://www.oshonsoft.com/
>
> this software is great for the price.
>
>
>
> linux : gpsim : http://www.dattalo.com/gnupic/gpsim.html
>
> C programming the PIC : http://www.yty.net/pic/
> yapide : http://www.mtoussaint.de/yapide.html
>
> the list goes on, something about PIC microcontrollers fits with the
> linux crowd.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7 Jun 2006 at 5:06, Dave Cover wrote:
> Hmmmm, a Rambler. If I remember correctly, they were a smaller than average
> car
> for the time.
Depends on what era. The name "Rambler" was a brand, the "family name" of
such cars as the Ambassador, Marlin, Classic, and American. IIRC, it was
also the name inherited by the former Rambler American when American Motors
changed the "family name" to AMC - that is, it became the AMC Rambler. All
this is subject to my dimming memory, so bear with me if I'm off for some of
the details.
I'm pretty sure the little brother of the family, the Rambler American, was
a unibody car. It was a member of the compact class, but I have a
recollection of it being a bit smaller than a Valiant or Falcon of the era.
It might have been lighter. Very standard chassis layout, again IIRC. High
school friend of mine had one, a convertible. He had a lot of problems with
it.
You may actually be thinking of something even older, the 1950s vintage Nash
Rambler. It would certainly make for an interesting EV conversion. Maybe
not much of a daily driver though, because of the parts issue.
http://vintagecars.about.com/od/greatcars/p/50nash_rambler.htm
I think a Nash Metropolitan (of similar vintage, built in England) would be
even more interesting and fun as an EV :
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/garage/7896/metropol.htm
I'll take mine as a convertible, please. ;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Lee Hart
>> Thinking of aircraft instruments...
Peter Shabino wrote:
> Now this one sounds like it could be a winner... any ideas on how / where to
> get the materials?
There are a bunch of 50-year-old aircraft instruments that had this sort
of dual meter -- compasses, artificial horizons, navigation, etc. Some
were true meters, others had servo motors to drive them, etc. All were
masterpieces of workmanship.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Basic stamps are easy to use but expensive and come in limited
configurations. (got one or two have not used them in quite a while)
Pic16* series are relatively easy to use and cheep. They do have 8 pin
micros with internal clock generators available. Check out www.microchip.com
for more details on available parts.
As for programming PIC16* assembly is easy. Sort of a stripped down basic.
The full instruction set is available at
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/31029a.pdf. There are only
35 instruction total. You can grab MPLAB IDE for free off their web page
that will allow you to compile and simulate(simple sims) assembly programs.
The only difficult item working in assembly vs basic is you have to watch
your variables. The assembler will not assign memory on the fly (or at least
I don't think it can. Have been at this for 10 years now and when I started
it did not have it and have not looked into it since). So you have to define
where each variable is stored in memory. I have a bunch of PIC asm code
floating around so If you need a sample program to work from (They really do
help when your starting out) let me know and I fire one off to you.
Later,
Wire
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: Jeff Shanab <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 14:26:13 -0000
Being able to install a lookup table etc would make my EV life easier.
I only know ancient BASIC. So then I have to try and tackle C to get
into uP's? I know there is the basic stamp, but I need something small
like in an 8 pin DIP that I can learn to program. Is there a Pic or
Atmel guide for pack smokin' Ultra Dummy's?
A small uP would allow me to make a very adjustable and communicative
bms as well as a monitoring system. Not to mention thermal fan hardware.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On a side note about using PIC micro's There are loads of free
> simulators, free software, and low cost build it yourself programmers
> for PIC.
>
> One of the PIC books I got(mike or mark predo, ok but not great author)
> comes with a board that you populate and links to free software, but I
> found better software.
>
> windows :
>
> http://www.oshonsoft.com/
>
> this software is great for the price.
>
>
>
> linux : gpsim : http://www.dattalo.com/gnupic/gpsim.html
>
> C programming the PIC : http://www.yty.net/pic/
> yapide : http://www.mtoussaint.de/yapide.html
>
> the list goes on, something about PIC microcontrollers fits with the
> linux crowd.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Meta Bus,
Do not charge them buddy paired, as you have no clue
which of the two is taking charge (and I have seen
several people find out when it was too late that the
strongest battery takes ALL the charge, so you end up
with one still dead and the other venting away)
If you have the time & equipment then charge them
one at a time (12V) with an ordinary car battery charger.
This will tell you if each comes back or not.
You may need to start with a bench supply set to 18-20V, 1A limit
if the battery is really dead and does not take a charge, to
"break through" the phase where the electrolyte is mainly
plain distilled water....
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Meta Bus
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 2:28 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Need Advice -- Gel pack rejuvenation plan
I have a string of buddy pairs, 8G31DT (size 31 gel 12v Deka
Dominators), which are currently dead-flat, and have been lying in that
state for months. I am going to attempt to bring them back from the
dead, and get some useful percentage of a SOC-- I'll be happy if I can
recover 25% of their original 200ah (paired) nominal 20-hour capacity.
The string of 24 paralleled pairs (288v) have a manufacturer-recommended
bulk charge rate of 14.1v (at 68f), which equates to 338.4v. I am
attempting this recovery in Florida, intending an overnight charge for
several nights (low amperage), where I expect an average temp of around
76-78f-- which lowers my target bulk voltage to around 14v max (per
Deka's temp/charge range chart).
The 10kw charger I inherited is dead too, so...
I am resorting to a nice PFC desktop supply, which gives me a steady
351.9vdc, and is rated for a maximum of around 1300 watts (with 110vac
input, which is what I'll be employing). [I feel more comfortable with
this lower-power supply than trying to pour 10kw into the dead pack, anyway]
Assuming the PFC supply is 80% efficient (it proclaims a power factor of
0.995 at full load), that means I will be offering around 3 amps to the
string-of-resistors-formerly-known-as-a-battery-pack. I will, however,
also be a good half-volt over-voltage, which concerns me.
If necessary, I could throw another battery pair onto the string, which
would make my constant-voltage PFC match up almost perfectly, but I am
curious if over-voltage might actually help recover from the sulphation
which no doubt threatens to stratify my string.
Before I hook all this up and throw the switch (open my pack relays and
then turn my little PFC loose), can someone help me predict what to expect?
Thanks.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Boosting the battery voltage is exactly what the newer Prius (2004+)
are doing: battery is 200V, motor controller is taking 500V DC or
thereabouts.
I am not suggesting that Prius are racing material, just to say that
it is not an uncommon situation.
NEDRA will need to define _where_ and _how_ to measure the voltage.
If it's the batteries nominal voltage spec as in 2V per lead acid cell
and 1.2 V per NiCd cell, etc., then all that is needed is to publish
a list of battery chemistries and voltage per cell that is counted,
then everyone can figure out the nr of series connected cells and
determine their class.
If you want to determine the class from max motor voltage then there
is no need to have 12V steps, as motor voltage max will depend on a
lot of things: AC or DC (RMS voltage on the AC output as the reference?)
and the max PWM output times the peak voltage or just the peak voltage
for DC drive? and so on....
BTW - we hear frequently about motor series/parallelling.
How is a car classified that does battery series/parallel switching?
Is it the highest voltage that can be reached when series switching?
At some point in time it may be beneficial to distinguish classes
between "lead" and "advance chemistries" instead of lumping them
together, but I'll leave it to someone else to determine if we want
a class per chemistry or just keep one class and allow everyone to
choose according budget and performance of chemistries.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 9:56 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu; ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Three questions (was: Announcement of new NEDRA Voltage
Divisions)
No one has tried building and racing a boost controller, but
it has been proposed before. I suspect that the weight, cost, and
perhaps inefficiency, might outweigh the possible advantage, but I
could easily be wrong.
Someone should try it. Maybe it will work.
Bill Dube'
At 05:06 PM 6/4/2006, Jorg Brown wrote:
>Well said, Bill, especially your note about the membership's 30-day comment
>period.
>
>One thing I've been curious about for some time is how the voltage is done.
>As you've mentioned, the "nominal" voltage is clear for lead-acid but not
so
>clear for other chemistries, because other chemistries don't have as wide a
>voltage range as lead-acid does.
>
>But putting that question to the side, I've wondered if there is any
thought
>about what happens if a controller increases the voltage? Suppose I aim to
>break the 24V records by using, say, 30 hawkers in two heavily parallel
>packs of 15 each. Then I use a special step-up controller that takes my
>voltage back up to, say, 240V. Is that still considered a 24V-class
>vehicle?
>
>And if that's considered a 240V vehicle, then what about AC drive? Do we
>use RMS equivalence, the same way that 110VAC is really 311V peak-to-peak?
>
>jorg
>
>ps Personally I think it'd be better to use 30-sec peak power output (of
the
>batteries), instead of voltage, but that's a long discussion for some other
>day.
>
>On 6/3/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>New voltage divisions are very a good idea. As higher voltage packs
>>appear at the track, it is smart to have more divisions to keep them
>>from all bunching together in a single category.
>>
>>Three important subject areas were not addressed in your
>>announcement, however.
>>
>>1) What happens with the existing "A" voltage records? Will they be
>>re-assigned? When (if) these existing records are moved, will "second
>>place" records, previously set, move into their place? If folks have
>>the proper documentation, will records set in the past be allowed in
>>these new categories?
>>
>>2) How will the voltage of other battery types be placed within these
>>divisions? The voltages in these divisions were designed for
>>"nominal" lead-acid voltages. The measured open-circuit voltage of
>>fully-charged lead-acid batteries is actually 13/12 times these
>>numbers. Would that be the voltage used for chemistries different
>>than lead-acid, or would some other formula be used?
>>
>>3) Doesn't the NEDRA charter require a 30 day member comment period
>>before new rules go into effect? Since this new rule was just
>>announced, shouldn't the members have 30 days to comment before it
>>becomes official? To whom would members send their comments? Where
>>would the member comments be listed? Where would the answers to the
>>comments be listed?
>>
>> Bill Dube'
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>At 05:11 AM 6/3/2006, you wrote:
>> >NEDRA is pleased to announce two new Voltage Divisions. Effectively
>> >immediately, we are adding two higher voltage divisions for a total
>> >of 12 in all. This means that there are more record setting
>> >opportunities for higher voltage vehicles beginning at the Power of
>> >DC event, this weekend at Hagerstown, Maryland. Please see the Power
>> >of DC site at http://www.powerofdc.com for all event details.
>> >
>> >We are seeing a major trend at the track toward higher voltages, so
>> >we wanted to provide some additional divisions for these higher
>> >voltage competitors. As the previously highest voltage division was
>> >designated "A", these two new divisions will be designated "A2" and
>> >"A3" respectively.
>> >
>> >All the NEDRA voltage divisions are currently based on multiples of
>> >nominal 12 volt batteries.
>> >
>> >New NEDRA Voltage Divisions
>> >----------------------------------
>> >Division A3 - 349 Volts and above
>> >Division A2 - 301 Volts - 348 Volts
>> >Division A - 241 Volts - 300 Volts
>> >Division B - 193 Volts - 240 Volts
>> >Division C - 169 Volts - 192 Volts
>> >Division D - 145 Volts - 168 Volts
>> >Division E - 121 Volts - 144 Volts
>> >Division F - 97 Volts - 120 Volts
>> >Division G - 73 Volts - 96 Volts
>> >Division H - 49 Volts - 72 Volts
>> >Division I - 25 Volts - 48 Volts
>> >Division J - 24 Volts and below
>> >
>> >All NEDRA record setters and record breakers receive a pair of
>> >Oakley Sunglasses.
>> >
>> >See you at the races!
>> >
>> >-Ken Trough
>> >NEDRA Public Relations
>> >
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Depends on what era. The name "Rambler" was a brand, the "family name" of
> such cars as the Ambassador, Marlin, Classic, and American.
I found this sight of Rambler postcards and advertisements.
http://www.arcticboy.com/Pages/arcticboysamerican.html
The early 60s models were what I was thinking of. There's a couple of
convertibles in there too. I
wonder if the wagon could handle the weight of a decent sized pack? No worries
about on board
computers!
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> The floating ball would be a really cool looking instrument (an electric
> eye LOL)
Clever name!
> How would you handle the fact that as the first coil moves the ball up,
> the 90 degree need is now at a different spot?
With standard meter movements, a 90 degree swing is about the best you
can do and still maintain reasonable linearity. So, I wouldn't try to
swing the ball any more than about 90 degrees (+/-45 degrees
left/right/up/down). You can get a wider swing, but it would require
much more careful construction.
Basically, the fixed magnet acts as a spring. The coils produce a force
proportional to current to deflect this spring. So the angle of rotation
is proportional to the current in the coil.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David an' Dave;
Good points on AMC and Rambler. Check out Shawn Lawless'es
"Electropolitan", a Rambler of this vintage. It's a convertable, I think,
and surely a one-off<g>! On the vintage US iron, my kids had a tempory
passion for Ford Falcons. They dragged into my large yard several models, I
mean horable examples, some even RAN! They, as kids do, took them apart,
swapped engines, trannys and whatnot.Much to the horror of my Yuppee
neighbors, but at least I KNEW where My kids were, and their school buddies,
it kept them off the street, so to speak<g>!I wonder at some of modern
parenting's thoughts" Oh they are ruining your lawn" my neighbor sniffed, at
a pick-up baseball game in the front lawn. I sez" I'm raising kids, not
lawns"I have PLENTY of lawn now, Kids are gone, it;'s real quiet, now. OK,
back to cars.
One of the things that stood out in my mind was how EASY they pushed
around, without an engine. Falcons have very narrow engine bays, for
batteries, but rather copious trunks. Had any of these been a clean example
of the genre, I woulda thought of a conversion, as Falcon and Mustangs,
early ones, share a lot of running gear parts. Easy to beef things up for
the lead capacity. I think, correct me if I'm wrong, the basic say, 62
Falcon weighed in at 2300 lbs, only a tad more than a VW, at about 1800 lbs,
but was a hellovs lot bigger!
All those "small" compact cars of those daze were delightfully light.
Would make great donar cars. IF and this is a BIG if, you could find clean
ones, not bondoed over rust buckets! When I get the Time Machine with a
cargo hold built, so I can go back and pick and choose, and extend my
Victrola Record collection with sone new old stock! Time machines are in the
same unobtaniun relm as alota better batteries right now1
In the EV histerical dept; Bob Arronson got a great offer from AMC,
American Motors, way back in the late 60's, when they were still in biz.
Gloders, in fact they gave us several, to our specs, for conversion. We
asked and got several examples, Sportabout Hornet Wagons, A Madator, a
Gremblen, They were all built from one big parts box, you could get the BIG
export drum brakes, on the Hornet or Gremlin, hevier springs right from the
factory!High rear end gears, 5 speed trannys, just by asking nicely! They
sent one of their engineering guyz out to talk to us. I cant remember his
name, but he was a cool guy, open to EV's EVen back then!
In my critique dept, Bob missed the boat, big time! We coulda done, say a
Gremlin or Hornet as a production car!!! Got some real cash flow into EFP's
coffers. We would have had AMC's blessings ,and backing. DAMN IT! Sorry, but
I think we could have had a nitch market, EVen back then. Bob still bumbles
along without a product 40 years later.It isn't EFP any more, it's Apollo
Something. Gees If I had the money he's been through! The EV would be out
there in some form. Bob Beaumont broke away from Bob Aronson, back then ,
took another tack from locomotive weight EVs to the other extreame the Citi
Car. The Rest is history. 'Beau almost made it with Renausasance Motors and
the Tropica, still very collectable, of the few examples that were built.
Hey! Beau, wanna try again, It's the time?
Well, back to reality. We STILL don't have an EV for Joe Sixchip, yet.
Maybe Tesla Motors can make it? Freedon, EV? Jerry got yur ears on?Progress
report. Please.Missed you on here, are ya copying the mail? EVerybody go see
'Who Killed the Electric Car" Follow it up with " Tucker, the Man and His
Dream," at a Bussblocker near you, or better yet Net Flix. They are way
cool, no late fees, ever!
Seeya
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: Zilla Z1K - Best Choice Rambler?
> On 7 Jun 2006 at 5:06, Dave Cover wrote:
>
> > Hmmmm, a Rambler. If I remember correctly, they were a smaller than
average car
> > for the time.
Snipabit
> Depends on ......................................
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Greetings EV-ers.
As a newbie who feels quite ignorant about things electrical when he
reads this list - not stupid, just ignorant (ok, well I sometimes FEEL
stupid, too, but honest...) - I'd like to educate myself on the topic.
Not looking for an EE degree, but a good basic understanding of
electricity that would give me some base to be applied here in the EV
world. I'd like to be able to *follow* these conversations here, and get
more than just a vague feeling of what folks are talking about when they
get into charging/controllers/motors discussions, etc.
Can anyone recommend a course of action/study? Electricity for Dummies?
Don't laugh (ok, but keep it down to a dull roar, eh?), but the Mrs
wants to buy me one of those Radio Shack type "Electric Lab" kits..
should I let her or is that too toylike? Any online courses that aren't
too expensive? I'm not (initially at least, one never knows!) looking to
change careers, but I think I'd really enjoy having *some* sort of
grounding (so to speak) in electrical matters, especially as they
pertain to this EVer-so-intriquing hobby/endeavour!
Prefer something I can pursue on my own schedule, which is pretty full
at the moment. Assume no prior knowledge/experience, but a quick study
when motivated.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts or advice.
- Patrick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In response to a question about coal and carbon sequestration, Alan
Greenspan says:
"If we convert to plug in electric vehicles, and we use coal, clean or
otherwise, to generate the electricity [for those vehicles] we can
keep our vehicle fleet on the roads."
Also (paraphrasing):
"The era of energy abundance is over... the abundance of cheep energy
that our society was built on is over, there will not be an abundent
replacement for oil."
URL for watching hearing:
http://today.reuters.com/tv/liveVideoPopup.aspx?src=060706_0935_FEATURES_live_video
-Mike
--- End Message ---
