EV Digest 5554
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Electric/EV basic knowledge
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) K&W BC20...156V charging?
by "Mueller, Craig M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Pic stuff (was) LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Flying out to San Francisco this weekend
by John Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Pic stuff (was) LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Flying out to San Francisco this weekend
by John Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Does any one have "Lic. Plate Envy
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Microchip software was ...Brueggemann Meter
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Flying out to San Francisco this weekend
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Who Killed The Electric Car?
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Microchip software was ...Brueggemann Meter
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Flying out to San Francisco this weekend
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Flying out to San Francisco this weekend
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Microchip software was ...Brueggemann Meter
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: OT - Ebert review strongly recommends "An Inconvenient Truth"
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) RE: Microchip software was ...Brueggemann Meter
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Lee's regs in action
by Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) San Jose EAA Meeting info
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Flying out to San Francisco this weekend
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) White Zombie Fails to hit 11's
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
This was a funny thread, as I actually got my start on
EVs at age 12, when my parents gave me the Radio Shack
150-in-1 kit! (;-p
> > Can anyone recommend a course of action/study?
> Electricity for
> > Dummies?
> > Don't laugh (ok, but keep it down to a dull roar,
> eh?), but the Mrs
> >
> > wants to buy me one of those Radio Shack type
> "Electric Lab" kits..
> >
If you have kids, you might just find yourself working
together with the ruggie! They are fun!
> > should I let her or is that too toylike? Any
> online courses that
> > aren't
> > too expensive?
Junior colleges are great for that! Start off with
one course there, plus a mech-tech class under
"Automotive".
I'm not (initially at least, one
> never knows!)
> > looking to
> > change careers, but I think I'd really enjoy
> having *some* sort of
> > grounding (so to speak) in electrical matters,
> especially as they
> > pertain to this EVer-so-intriquing
> hobby/endeavour!
> > Prefer something I can pursue on my own schedule,
> which is pretty
> > full
> > at the moment. Assume no prior
> knowledge/experience, but a quick
> > study
> > when motivated.
There is practical stuff, too. I can attest to that
as a bio major, who had to "become an engineer" (why
mount this component here? Why use this body vs. that
one) when I wanted to convert.
Suggest you follow link to Civicwithacord journal (see
below). If my DVD helps, pls. give me a jingle.
peace,
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I currently have a line booster on my K&W BC20 to charge my 120V pack
(LB-20)... Can I get it to charge a 156V pack (nominal)?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
> Well like one example is that memory space is divided up
> amongst a number of banks, because there aren't even
> enough bits in a standard size assembly instruction to
> address all possible memory locations. So you set the
> bank register (essentially it's like the most significant
> bits of the address you need) with one instruction and
> specify the rest of the address in the instruction which
> acts on that address.
Good example! And there is also the issue of Harvard vs Von Neumann
architectures (is memory divided into program and data spaces, or can
you place data and code anywhere you like).
> Typical newbie mistake is to have the wrong bank selected.
> Honestly, not a really big issue here though.
It may not be a big issue for this example, but maintaining the
bank/page select register is certainly a PITA that simply increases the
opportunity for bugs when writing assembly code. All of these little
things are not insurmountable, but since they largely disappear entirely
when one writes in C instead, most programmers will write in assembly
only the bits that are particularly speed critical, or if they
absolutely need to make the most efficient use of every available byte
of memory.
For commercial products, the additional dev cost of coding in assembly
to get into a $0.10 cheaper micro can make sense if volumes are high
enough, but for the sort of things we build for our EVs, it makes far
more sense to spend a bit more on a micro with more memory.
At the end of the day, if the widget you or I build for our EV costs
$1-2 more in parts because of using a bigger micro to make it easier to
program, but the widget is working in half the time, I think we come out
much further ahead.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike
I have been lurking on this list. I would like to meet you and show
you my next project. My son and I have a 1983 Rabbit GTI for a
conversion.
We could use some advice. My cell # is 415-613-7408.
John and Nathaniel
San Francisco
On Jun 7, 2006, at 1:43 PM, Mike Phillips wrote:
What part of the Bay Area are you going too? That might help nail down
where you are going to be.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
I'm going to be flying out to San Francisco to meet with a guy and
work
on his US Electricar truck/Prizm this weekend. This is probably
going to
be a simple fix, meaning I'll have some time to tool around and meet
people.
Would anyone like to get together with an East Coast EVer while
I'm out
there? Dinner/tour of cars/chatting/whatever? It would be
interesting to
meet some of you while I'm there.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's important to note that the issues of Harvard architecture affect
both assembly and C coding equally.
Actually PICC18 was odd in that it allows you to use a pointer that
could be to a const OR a variable location equally. This is confusing
when you look at the architecture, no piece of code can use that pointer
properly without knowing if it's a const or variable because they're
totally different procedures. I heard PICC18 pulled a trick where it
would never place const data in ROM addresses that would coincide with
the addresses used by RAM space, so apparently for every access it could
simply infer from its address whether it was a ROM or RAM space. This
was ok for awhile but then PICs with more RAM start to complicate the
issue and make the code unable to compile when written like that.
MCC18 requires you to use a ROM or RAM qualifier for data items and
pointers. Every time you write a task which takes in a pointer, you
have to decide if that task is going to take in a ROM or RAM pointer.
They can't handle both. While annoying, I agree it is the appropriate
solution to make C play nice with the architecture.
Danny
Roger Stockton wrote:
Danny Miller wrote:
Well like one example is that memory space is divided up
amongst a number of banks, because there aren't even
enough bits in a standard size assembly instruction to
address all possible memory locations. So you set the
bank register (essentially it's like the most significant
bits of the address you need) with one instruction and
specify the rest of the address in the instruction which
acts on that address.
Good example! And there is also the issue of Harvard vs Von Neumann
architectures (is memory divided into program and data spaces, or can
you place data and code anywhere you like).
Typical newbie mistake is to have the wrong bank selected.
Honestly, not a really big issue here though.
It may not be a big issue for this example, but maintaining the
bank/page select register is certainly a PITA that simply increases the
opportunity for bugs when writing assembly code. All of these little
things are not insurmountable, but since they largely disappear entirely
when one writes in C instead, most programmers will write in assembly
only the bits that are particularly speed critical, or if they
absolutely need to make the most efficient use of every available byte
of memory.
For commercial products, the additional dev cost of coding in assembly
to get into a $0.10 cheaper micro can make sense if volumes are high
enough, but for the sort of things we build for our EVs, it makes far
more sense to spend a bit more on a micro with more memory.
At the end of the day, if the widget you or I build for our EV costs
$1-2 more in parts because of using a bigger micro to make it easier to
program, but the widget is working in half the time, I think we come out
much further ahead.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I meant Chris!
On Jun 7, 2006, at 1:43 PM, Mike Phillips wrote:
What part of the Bay Area are you going too? That might help nail down
where you are going to be.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
I'm going to be flying out to San Francisco to meet with a guy and
work
on his US Electricar truck/Prizm this weekend. This is probably
going to
be a simple fix, meaning I'll have some time to tool around and meet
people.
Would anyone like to get together with an East Coast EVer while
I'm out
there? Dinner/tour of cars/chatting/whatever? It would be
interesting to
meet some of you while I'm there.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My wife has, "DO MORE".
Mine says, "GAS SUX".
Can't believe Kalifornia let that one out. Did find out they have a list of
words that automatically kick you out of the running.
They denied "WAR(heart)OIL".
Go figure.
Marv
> From: "EVDave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:07:23 -0400
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Subject: RE: Does any one have "Lic. Plate Envy ?"
>
> It just takes creativity. Here is mine....
>
> http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/e10dave/detail?.dir=dd7bre2&.dnm=78f4re2.j
> pg&.src=ph
>
>
> Dave banas
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Steven Lough
> Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 1:06 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Electric Vehicle
> Discussion List RCVR
> Subject: Does any one have "Lic. Plate Envy ?"
>
>
> This PLATE:
>
> ( http://home.comcast.net/~stevenslough/OneHundredOneMPG.jpg )
>
> is sitting on one of our friends Volvo's. It is NOT a vanity Plate,
> it was just a number which came up in the normal sequence...
>
> My sister WORKS for a franchised Wa.State Lice Agency... So I called
> her and asked her if This Plate could be transferred to someone ..
> ... how should I put it... More Deserving !
>
> And unfortunately she said she does not think it is possible...
>
> Too Bad... I know one guy here in Wa. State, with the enitials
> Ryan Fulcher... would probably PAY BIG BUCKS to have that plate.
>
> Sorry Ryan....
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> Day: 206 850-8535
> Eve: 206 524-1351
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Really you can do some great things with digital. And the flexibility
IS the best part. It's so easy to make changes, fix problems, and add
features later. And they can easily implement so many aspects that
would be very difficult or impossible to implement in analog, yet few
analog tasks are difficult or impossible to implement with a uC.
Danny
Gnat wrote:
There are some places where analog design is cheaper but then you loose the
ability to easily make changes. Depends on a lot of factors. Not just $$.
Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The microchip software is very good. I haven't booted it in a while.
What I liked about some of the after market software was the addition of
virtual ossciliscopes and ascii terminals and displays.
Wasn't it limited to assembly?
There is a reason with PIC architecture to use assembly and it is not
something a C compiler can guess very well.
It is both an accumulator and a load store archatecture, the output from
the ALU can be feed back to the input of the ALU with 1 bit modified on
some of the commands. This can make for some vary effient code in
certain situations.
PS. The basic stamp is a PIC micro with a basic interpreter rom. The
problem is how much of the resources are given up to get basic in there.
opinion : C is easier than basic.
Have any of you guys seen those schmartboards? they sent me a sample
and it is really cool how you can solder a tqfn 64 by hand.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike:
Actually I'll be in a place called Pacifica or something like that. Just
south of SF proper.
Want to grab lunch over the weekend? I'd like to see this whole NiMH
truck thing.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee said it. When I was a kid I got the biggest bedroom in the house,
the carpet was removed and all broken appliances came to me (probably an
early defense mechanism my mom learned to keep from taking things apart
that still worked)
I went looking for decent electronic kits for my nephew last xmas,
Radioshack had a basic stamp kit, and that was the best I could find. I
cannot go to the local electronics parts house and buy what I need, they
all carry NTE, same inventory that is repair centric and priced accordingly.
Of course I sit in front of my 3 screen computer on a desk from an
office building that shares the main livingroom in my house with a
server rack and another full size desk. The printer
farm(inkjet,laser,impact and printserver occupie the media alcove. So I
quess I am not done growing up.
I haven't done any surface mount beyond repairs, but found an
interesting method that is simple. "Vapor phase" soldering.
Using a seringe, put the solder paste on the board, a stencil would be
used for production, place the components then suspend the board above a
small tank of flouronert and turn on the heaters, Floronert (FC-70) is
heavier than air and goes frum liqued to vapor above the solder's melt
point. It condenses on the cold solder melting it and reflowing the board.
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/!ut/p/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Q9KzYsPDdaP0I8yizeIN_T00S_IcFQEAFNdJV8!
Id like to try this and hot air
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve, Good news! I just spoke with the producers and it will be released in
the UK. They said they will get back to me with a release date. More good
news, Richard Titus, the producer of the film personally invited me to the
premiere opening in Los Angeles on June 24th at The Los Angeles Film
Festival. They want me to bring Gone Postal. They will have an event
following the showing with displays. I am sure Reverend Gadget will be
there. Our company has yet to make a decision. I will keep you all informed.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "steve ollerton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: Who Killed The Electric Car?
This film looks great. How do we go about seeing it here in the UK? Anyone
know?
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marvin Campbell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:35 AM
Subject: Who Killed The Electric Car?
I just went to a screening of this movie and it ROCKS!
Funniest part for me was the guy from the petroleum producers association
saying that electric cars were a terrible mistake that we must NEVER
REPEAT
(guffaw!)
S. David Freeman figured very prominently as well. Neon John should know
him
as he used to work for the TVA.
Of course Rev. Gadget's in there as well. God...whatta ham! That guy
certainly gets around. Where does he find the time to do all this stuff?
Oh
yeah, he's got no kids. That explains it:^O
If you can see this movie, do it. I think it's out in general release
June
28th. If you're out in the "real world" (i.e., not NY/LA) call your local
movie theatre and ask them to show it. It's being distributed by Sony
Classic Pictures.
MarvyMarv
Culver City, CA
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've written TONS of C code for the PIC18 series and a little for dsPIC.
Works fine. You can fit a huge amount of graphical LCD drivers,
graphical text fonts, gauge displays, messages, hardware interface code,
etc onto a PIC18F452 and it can run MANY times faster than than LCD
needs to be updated.
BASIC Stamp is basically a scam. Huh "BASICScam". A microcontroller
comes with program space on board. New ones have internal oscillators
if you're really lazy. If you get parts which already have a
"bootloader" written onto them you don't even need a programmer, just a
serial port and a handful of dirt cheap components. BASICStamp takes a
very early device, adds an external, incredibly slow EEPROM, have a
pointless and weak interpreted language setup, and charges a HUGE amount
of money for them and tell people over and over how hard it'll be to
even try to do a uC without their product. The real crime here is that
it separates students from anything to do with the microcontroller,
making the experience nearly useless!
Reality is, get a 18F chip (free sample), C programmer (free), MPLAB IDE
(free), get somebody to put a bootloader on it, MAX232 serial interface
chip & 4 small caps, a +5v reg, and you're good to go for all of...
what, $3? $5? That setup's 100's of times more powerful than a BS.
The only thing is, there's no sales guy pushing you to buy this free
setup and buying huge glossy ads so you have to do a bit of looking to
understand you have this option.
Danny
Jeff Shanab wrote:
The microchip software is very good. I haven't booted it in a while.
What I liked about some of the after market software was the addition of
virtual ossciliscopes and ascii terminals and displays.
Wasn't it limited to assembly?
There is a reason with PIC architecture to use assembly and it is not
something a C compiler can guess very well.
It is both an accumulator and a load store archatecture, the output from
the ALU can be feed back to the input of the ALU with 1 bit modified on
some of the commands. This can make for some vary effient code in
certain situations.
PS. The basic stamp is a PIC micro with a basic interpreter rom. The
problem is how much of the resources are given up to get basic in there.
opinion : C is easier than basic.
Have any of you guys seen those schmartboards? they sent me a sample
and it is really cool how you can solder a tqfn 64 by hand.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Assembly is simpler but not easier. let me explain
you have much fewer commands and they are directly linked to the
hardware each doing on hardware related thing.
You must furnish all the constructs. For example a loop in c is
for (i=1;i<25;i++){
//do a bunch
//of stuff
// for each battery
}
In assembly you must choose a register, put a counter value in it,
decrement this counter and branch when the zero flag is activated after
the decrement instruction. This is actually quiet simple and almost as
easy as C . The added problems with the PIC occur when the setting of
one bit bank selects out sections of memory and suddenly you are looking
at the wrong memory. You must manage the memory model. Or the setting of
the writeback bit sends the value through the ALU again and throws off
your result.
Where the real difference comes in is when you have a mathematical
expression and parameter passing subroutine calls.
amphrs = (amps* tempcoef^pukert*.65 + amps*pukert ) * volts //in c is
one line
in assembly this takes about 50 lines and a week the first time you do
it. Now put an expression inside the variables of the for loop and you
are in for some fun. ie for (i=1; i<batteries/2; i + batteries / 10){....
assembly is more effient to program in when you are doing a lot of bit
level manipulation, but C is the best high level language that allows
bit level manipulation as well as embedding assembly. It lends itself
to larger more complicated projects because of the ability to offer a
level of abstraction away from the actual implementation. C++ is better
on big interface driven programs with overlays and stuff having more
than one programmer, All good c is valid c++. C# enforces thru language
coinstructs good C++ practices and is more an attraction to people who
employ programmers than the programmers themselfs, although it does save
some typing on large classes and the type safety is a great feature. it
reduces errors on huge projects.
The 8085 line of microcontrollers, are better suited to programing in C.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When are you actually landing? We have our Saturday EV meeting in San
Jose at 10am.
Pacifica is about 60 miles to my north. Are you coming down this way?
Will you have wheels?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mike:
>
> Actually I'll be in a place called Pacifica or something like that.
Just
> south of SF proper.
>
> Want to grab lunch over the weekend? I'd like to see this whole NiMH
> truck thing.
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hot air is neat. I found that the butane-powered Weller soldering irons
have a catalytic "heat blower" (not the blow torch!) tip which is very
useful for SMD soldering.
You can buy an SMD "rework" station for a few hundred. It can be set up
with tips made for different packages. Those can take off components
too, which is very difficult (nigh impossible for many pkgs) with just a
hot air pencil like that Weller.
A heat gun with a fully controllable temp dial is actually pretty handy
sometimes too, but it's also easy to screw it up.
Another thing, toaster oven. Very popular! Just follow the procedures
described on the web and it works reliably.
A lot of people use the drag technique. Add some flux and drag a ball
of solder across the pins, wetting each one as it goes. Many web pages
describe the process.
Important thing to observe about most pastes. They are meant to be
pre-heated allowing the flux to flow out of the paste and, if it's
water-based, to allow the water to escape. This should not be combined
with the soldering step. The surfaces will not be properly fluxed and
the flux/solvent will sputter out of it in an uncontrolled way and it
won't flow reliably at all.
There is also a "low melt" smd removal-only solder. You drag it across
the pins and it alloys with the existing solder and lowers the melting
point way, way down. Then it can be removed with only moderate heat.
The solder stuff to do this is VERY expensive and I am concerned about
this material contaminating the pins and pads affecting the properties
of the joint when a new part is installed, or the removed part is placed
on a new board.
So as you see there are a number of effective ways to do it at home.
All are much better described on the net. Note some are only
appropriate for doing an entire board, while others are more practical
when you only want to put on one or two parts. Some techniques are able
to remove a component and some aren't.
Seems unlikely "vapor phase" is something you wanna do at home, sounds
scary. But I don't know anything about it.
Danny
Jeff Shanab wrote:
I haven't done any surface mount beyond repairs, but found an
interesting method that is simple. "Vapor phase" soldering.
Using a seringe, put the solder paste on the board, a stencil would be
used for production, place the components then suspend the board above a
small tank of flouronert and turn on the heaters, Floronert (FC-70) is
heavier than air and goes frum liqued to vapor above the solder's melt
point. It condenses on the cold solder melting it and reflowing the board.
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/!ut/p/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Q9KzYsPDdaP0I8yizeIN_T00S_IcFQEAFNdJV8!
Id like to try this and hot air
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The only caveot to what Roger Stockton said about programming in C is
that with a PIC, or any other micro, you are dealing with bits that
represent sections of a port. or bits that set a timer as a prescaler to
another timer and other bits set the size of the second timer and what
interrupt to perform and follow etc,etc You need to understand the
machine even to program in C so learning assembly first on the small
architecture will help you write good C. Do at leaast a few tiny
projects in assembler, redo them in C and look at the assembly created,
then mov on to larger more complicated projects in C. It looks like
Roger has done exactly that as he created macros. I would guess he had
to understand the under pinnings to create them(or other such projects
), Once you have lerned this in one archetecture you implement it in
each new architecture
This may be akin to those first rungs Lee mentioned. It is relevent here
more than on a PC because you are working at the equivilent level of
writing a device driver.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's also essential to understand the chip's features. For example most
of the time nobody would write a PWM or timekeeper without using the
hardware resources. These are almost always controlled entirely by
reading and writing the module's registers. These are not part of the C
language specification. The compiler will allow you a syntax like
"PWMControlReg.Enable=1". What that does is part of the uC's spec
sheet. A great deal of the code may be read/writes to those regs.
There are also a number of features not controlled by regs. For
example, the oscillator modes, the "automatic low voltage reset"
features, etc may not be on a reg but are set by the programmer when the
device is programmed. Also the initial data that goes into the EEPROM-
space which can be programmed while the device is running and will
retain those values when power is removed- may need to be specified.
The syntax to do these things isn't actually part of the C language at
all, they're compiler-specific directives to tell the compiler to do
special things. In the code, they're actually stated outside the
executable code block.
Danny
Jeff Shanab wrote:
The only caveot to what Roger Stockton said about programming in C is
that with a PIC, or any other micro, you are dealing with bits that
represent sections of a port. or bits that set a timer as a prescaler to
another timer and other bits set the size of the second timer and what
interrupt to perform and follow etc,etc You need to understand the
machine even to program in C so learning assembly first on the small
architecture will help you write good C. Do at leaast a few tiny
projects in assembler, redo them in C and look at the assembly created,
then mov on to larger more complicated projects in C. It looks like
Roger has done exactly that as he created macros. I would guess he had
to understand the under pinnings to create them(or other such projects
), Once you have lerned this in one archetecture you implement it in
each new architecture
This may be akin to those first rungs Lee mentioned. It is relevent here
more than on a PC because you are working at the equivilent level of
writing a device driver.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good lord, everyone lives south of SF. Weird.
I'll have a Prius, and possibly a Prizm if there is Magnecharge along
the way :-) I'll be landing tomorrow afternoon (Thu)
Drop me directions to the EV thingie if you could.
Chris
Mike Phillips wrote:
When are you actually landing? We have our Saturday EV meeting in San
Jose at 10am.
Pacifica is about 60 miles to my north. Are you coming down this way?
Will you have wheels?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Mike:
Actually I'll be in a place called Pacifica or something like that.
Just
south of SF proper.
Want to grab lunch over the weekend? I'd like to see this whole NiMH
truck thing.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
The microchip software is very good. I haven't booted it in a while.
What I liked about some of the after market software was the addition of
virtual ossciliscopes and ascii terminals and displays.
Wasn't it limited to assembly?
There is a reason with PIC architecture to use assembly and it is not
something a C compiler can guess very well.
There are other low-cost options:
For ANSI C lovers (comes with an IDE, or use MPLAB) :
http://www.sourceboost.com/Products/BoostC/Overview.html
An "optimized" (modified) C designed to better fit the PIC architecture:
http://www.bknd.com/cc5x/index.shtml
~ Peanut Gallery ~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually he does mention EV's in this sentence...
"Move quickly toward hybrid and electric cars."
Ken
In a message dated 6/7/2006 6:12:20 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
In this review, Roger Ebert shames the reader who doesn't think global
warming is real and begs him to try to come up with an excuse why he
wouldn't see the film. Strong statement. Review mentions hybrids. No
mention of EVs.
http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060601/REVIEWS/605
17002
- Peri Hartman
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--- Begin Message ---
The BASIC Stamp is an excellent product for its purpose. It has enabled
thousands of people to enter the world of microelectronics by offering a
simple to use platform, a GUI interface, lots of great articles and how-tos
in a well package setup. Sure it has lots of limitations, sure it
comparatively costs lots of money, but for those people who are doing casual
small hobby projects it suits its purpose just fine. Thats what it was
built for.
I am sure Parallax would love for a manufacturer to use the basic stamp in
their product, but I doubt any professional microelectronics programmer
would be recommending it.
Low cost is only a small part of the equation. When it comes to learning a
new technology, I ask myself several questions:
- how quick can I be productive
- will the tool solve the problem
- is there adequate support
- is there adequate training
Although I have outgrown the basic stamp and now use a compiler for PIC, if
the stamp wasn't there in the first place, I doubt I would have started into
the process - to much time invested for minimal return.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: June 7, 2006 6:07 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Microchip software was ...Brueggemann Meter
I've written TONS of C code for the PIC18 series and a little for dsPIC.
Works fine. You can fit a huge amount of graphical LCD drivers, graphical
text fonts, gauge displays, messages, hardware interface code, etc onto a
PIC18F452 and it can run MANY times faster than than LCD needs to be
updated.
BASIC Stamp is basically a scam. Huh "BASICScam". A microcontroller comes
with program space on board. New ones have internal oscillators if you're
really lazy. If you get parts which already have a "bootloader" written
onto them you don't even need a programmer, just a serial port and a handful
of dirt cheap components. BASICStamp takes a very early device, adds an
external, incredibly slow EEPROM, have a pointless and weak interpreted
language setup, and charges a HUGE amount of money for them and tell people
over and over how hard it'll be to even try to do a uC without their
product. The real crime here is that it separates students from anything to
do with the microcontroller, making the experience nearly useless!
Reality is, get a 18F chip (free sample), C programmer (free), MPLAB IDE
(free), get somebody to put a bootloader on it, MAX232 serial interface chip
& 4 small caps, a +5v reg, and you're good to go for all of...
what, $3? $5? That setup's 100's of times more powerful than a BS.
The only thing is, there's no sales guy pushing you to buy this free setup
and buying huge glossy ads so you have to do a bit of looking to understand
you have this option.
Danny
Jeff Shanab wrote:
>The microchip software is very good. I haven't booted it in a while.
>What I liked about some of the after market software was the addition
>of virtual ossciliscopes and ascii terminals and displays.
>
>Wasn't it limited to assembly?
>
>There is a reason with PIC architecture to use assembly and it is not
>something a C compiler can guess very well.
>
>It is both an accumulator and a load store archatecture, the output
>from the ALU can be feed back to the input of the ALU with 1 bit
>modified on some of the commands. This can make for some vary effient
>code in certain situations.
>
>PS. The basic stamp is a PIC micro with a basic interpreter rom. The
>problem is how much of the resources are given up to get basic in there.
>
>opinion : C is easier than basic.
>
>Have any of you guys seen those schmartboards? they sent me a sample
>and it is really cool how you can solder a tqfn 64 by hand.
>
>
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Check's in the mail...No...Really...It is...
Wayne
At 09:30 PM 6/6/2006, you wrote:
Wayne wrote:
> Or make broadly available?
I've offered to make them for people at $10 each a few times. No takers.
Most people want them free, or think they can do it cheaper themselves!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
If those of us who "can", "do" then those of us who "can't" won't
suffer as much from the high prices of excess.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
Here is our group website. The contact info and directions are on
there. We are at Reid Hillview airport in San Jose, so it's easy to
find. It's the small airport next to the huge San Jose airport.
http://geocities.com/sjeaa/
I'm at 408/736-6453 at home. I leave around 9:30am Saturday morning to
get there early.
Mike
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--- Begin Message ---
Many of us live south of SF because we are in the heart of Silicon Valley.
I sent you directions and my number. I'll try not to smoke another set
of packs before you get here ;)
There is a fair amount of charging stations around. You need an Avcon
adapter to make use of many of them. For the distance I'd jsut take
the Prius.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Good lord, everyone lives south of SF. Weird.
>
> I'll have a Prius, and possibly a Prizm if there is Magnecharge along
> the way :-) I'll be landing tomorrow afternoon (Thu)
>
> Drop me directions to the EV thingie if you could.
>
> Chris
>
>
> Mike Phillips wrote:
> > When are you actually landing? We have our Saturday EV meeting in San
> > Jose at 10am.
> >
> > Pacifica is about 60 miles to my north. Are you coming down this way?
> > Will you have wheels?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christopher Zach <ev@> wrote:
> >> Mike:
> >>
> >> Actually I'll be in a place called Pacifica or something like that.
> > Just
> >> south of SF proper.
> >>
> >> Want to grab lunch over the weekend? I'd like to see this whole NiMH
> >> truck thing.
> >>
> >> Chris
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
The racing saga continues.....
Around noon on Saturday, Tim and I had just returned to my place after
we got the new tires on the car (thank you Superior Tires) and with a
warm sunny afternoon upon us, looking west (where all Pacific Northwest
weather comes from) it was still sunny with not too many clouds building
up. The decision was made that we would take our chances and prepare to
go drag racing, hoping the rain would come later rather than earlier.
I had written:
Next up...Saturday is 'supposed' to be dry and sunny all day, but rain
is expected to hit the metro area between 6 pm and midnight....It
'may' rain tonight, but hopefully, it will hold off until the bike and
our car have got a few passes in.
The gamble paid off as we finally got in some much anticipated track
time Saturday night. We managed to get three runs in before the rain hit
at around 8:30 pm that forced the track to close down for the night, so
the anti-EV Vortex is still messing with us :-( The stormy,
temperamental weather seems to be perfectly timed with any type of
racing schedule. It's sunny and warm on the weekdays, then when the
weekend arrives, so does the anti-EV Vortex. Oh well, we 'did' get three
runs in...Father Time just two. More on our runs later....
Back to the story....
We still had possession of Father Time's drag bike since we had taken it
to and from Illinois with us, but it was at Tim's house 40 miles away in
Scappoose, Oregon, so Tim left to get it while I stayed and worked on
White Zombie's reverse system. Right on schedule, Father Time arrived at
around 2:30, about the same time Tim returned with his motorcycle. EVer
Roy LeMeur showed up a bit later as were getting ready to leave for the
track and as he usually does, dug right in helping out with everything.
We left for the track at around 4:30 in a small caravan, I driving White
Zombie with Father Time riding shotgun, Tim following driving the work
service truck (our rolling workshop), and Roy in his Sube wagon. About
15 miles later, we arrived at the Burger King hamburger joint, which has
a big parking lot perfect for staging the car near the work truck and
doing a recharge. Local EVer and friend Chris Brune (Sure Power
Products) found us there, so the night was already looking up for a fun
EV get-together. As the Zombie took in a fast charge, we sucked down
fast food.
With the track a bit less than a mile away, Tim got a little frisky when
he and FT left in White Zombie and nailed it pretty good...those new G
Force Drag Radials make a sweet song! We pulled into the PIR complex to
find a pretty good line-up of vehicles, everything from classic muscle
cars, to hopped up ricers, to diesel drag trucks (the newest category of
drag racers on the scene)...oh yeah, and this nifty looking areo-shaped
car, none other than Otmar in his blue Honda Insight! We opened the
back roll-up door of the service truck, powered up the generator, and
began to top off the car's pack. We sure get the other racers' attention
with the drag car tethered to the service truck with a 4 gauge twin lead
charge cable refreshing the pack while waiting to get into the track!
Right on cue, another EVer friend, Damon Henry, showed up in style
riding his NiCad powered electric motorcyle. It was easy to connect up
another PFC charger and throw him a charge cord who's red 50 amp
Anderson snapped right into his bike's charge port. Our fellow racers
had already been taking in the EV scene and had been checking out White
Zombie, so Damon's electric street motorcycle was just icing on the
cake. The night was turning into quite an EVent, more like a second
'Wayland Invitational' than just another night of 'Tim & John' racing.
Once we were inside the gates and in the pit area, we unloaded FT's two
wheeled machine from the back of my service truck. Racers and racing
fans immediately gathered around to see that not just one, but two
electric racing vehicles were at the track! It's always hard to tell
whether it's Father Time's EVs or the man himself that draws the
crowd....my money's on the bearded one. One guy was looking at the low
slung smallish sized electric drag bike with its fat junior dragster
rear slick, V-shaped twin Hawker packs (we had the covers off for a
while), and huge 500 amp ammeter on the tank (well, suido tank) as he
asked me "Who's crazy enough to ride this thing?" That's when I pointed
towards FT walking over in his red and black leathers, his long white
hair and white ZZ Top beard blowing in the wind and said, "That dude."
So here's the scene in the pits, White Zombie with it's hood up and
trunk open looking as electric as it gets, FT's drag bike, and Damon's
street motorcycle...wait, just when I thought that was it for EVs, Roy
LeMeur opened the tailgate of his gasser Sube wagon and pulled out a
slick electric minibike complete with a multicolored attention-getting
LED wonder ball on a stalk...later in the night as darkness fell the
wonder ball lighting effect could been seen from quite a ways and it
drew quite a bit of attention. Then, EVer Marko Mongilo arrived in his
276V 'Baby Blue' Datsun minitruck, so the attention-getting
turquoise-blue minitruck brought the EV total to 5! The crowd of friends
continued to grow when EVer's George Tylinski and Myles Twete showed up,
then EVer Jay Donaway, then my forklift work buddies arrived to show
their support as well, one of them being Steve 'the Taunter' Schrab, the
guy who back in '05 set up the famous grudge match between the 240V
class SC/B version of White Zombie and the V8 Mustang (featured at the
Plasma Boy web site's video page, look for the thumbnail '12.991')
I had also written:
We'll probably keep it conservative tonight and run with the battery
pack limited at 800 amps just to see what we get. Tim and I are
convinced the car is stronger at 800 amps and the 360V pack and new
taller 4:11 ratio, than it was with a 348V pack, 1000 amps, and the
4:57 ratio....Will it translate to better numbers at the track, or are
our seat-of-the-pants impressions out of whack? ...Everything changes
when you hit the track, so we'll just have to go do it and find out.
As this post's title says, we didn't get into the 11's, but it felt as
if we would have had there been more runs and a more broken-in battery
pack....yeah I know, excuses, excuses! The first run was nearly 13 flat
at 13.087 and a disappointingly low trap speed of just 97.93 mph. Where
was that higher top end speed we thought we'd get? The 60 ft. time was
slower, too, up from the low 1.59-1.65 times to a slower 1.82. Yes, we
were bummed. Though the cars feels way stronger on the street with the
higher pack voltage (360V), taller rear end gears (4:11) and lower
battery current settings than it previously did with the lower pack
voltage (348V), lower rear end gears (4:57) and higher battery current
settings, it didn't translate into the spectacular numbers we had hoped
for on the track...at least not in the first run. On the other hand,
with the battery amps turned down to just 800 and the series motor mode
limited to 1500 amps - compared to the previous version with lower gears
and 348V where to get into the low 12's we had to run battery amps at
1000-1100, the series mode at 1800-2000 amps, and the parallel mode at
the full 2000 amps, this turned out to be pretty encouraging. The
previous version also started out with the first runs in the 13.2-13.0
second range, so here we were with the pack restricted to just 800 amps
and the series mode (launch) also restricted in amps, and yet our first
run was a 13 flat. After considering this, it was actually a fairly
impressive first run.
For the second run, we left everything set the same. With the batteries
beginning to feel 'just warm', White Zombie was beginning to wake up
posting a 12.825 @ 100.02 mph with a better 1.75 60 ft. time. Not shabby
for just 800 battery amps! Racing fans who had never seen a quick
electric car flocked to our pit area...great fun. The track wasn't very
sticky, so the launches would have been better under different
circumstances.
Father Time had his hands full, when in the pit area he cracked the
welds of the motor's chain sprocket. Roy LeMeur to the rescue again!
Together, he and Father Time pulled the motor and mounted up a spare
motor. All this detracted from FT's available run time as the wind
picked up and we watched the west skies darken with rain clouds. FT
ended up getting two runs in, both at 72 mph. The bike's launch is very
soft, then when FT hits the bypass button that suddenly sends full pack
voltage to the motor, the bike pulls hard at the end of the track. I got
to watch both of his runs, and even with the soft not-so-racy launches,
the crowd loved the visual of the this wild dude on this wacky but cool
electric drag bike!
We had all sorts of problems with the service truck's generator that
made charging a pain. There's quite a build-up of heat in the service
truck's workshop, and combined with a suspect fuel line and tired fuel
pump, vapor lock raised its ugly head and the generator would spit,
cough, and bog down continually. With Marko's truck, Damon's motorcycle,
FT's motorcycle, and White Zombie all wanting juice all night, it's a
miracle the generator didn't melt down.
Finally juiced up for the last run, Otmar and I checked the Zilla's
settings. Tired of wimpy high 12 stuff, we cranked up the battery
current to 1000 amp and raised the series mode current limit to 1800
amps. Ahhhh...much better! In fact, had we not 'experimented' with field
weakening (slowed the acceleration down and caused an interesting light
show), the run would have been even quicker. White Zombie ran a quick
12.4-something @ 101-something mph. PIR's printer was nearly out of ink,
so much so that the time slips have faded to white days later, so this
final time slip is on memory recall. Gripe time...something so
inexpensive and easy to keep in top condition as printer ink to be
neglected for something as important as the time slip????
Anyway....again, not the higher 107-110 mph trap speeds I had thought
we'd see, and not into the 11's, but still, for the 3rd run on
not-yet-broken-in batteries not fully warmed up yet, it was pretty good.
Tim told me he could feel the car slow down both times he hit the button
for field weakening, so had we not done that, the 12.4 might have been a
12.2 or better. Oh yeah, the 60 ft. timed dropped to an impressive 1.61!
Point of interest...I had worried that the change in gear ratio to the
taller 4:11 might ruin White Zombie's killer hole shot...not! In fact,
our 3rd run's 1.61 second 60 ft. time was identical to the best 60 ft.
time of the night when we set the record with the older lower ratio on
the very run White Zombie ran its 12.151, which was a 1.61 second 60 ft.
time! The very best 60 ft. time White Zombie has ever achieved was a
1.59 on a weekend where we cranked up the battery amps to 1100 and the
series launch amps to 2000, After seeing the 1.61 time of the 3rd run on
a night where the track wasn't very sticky at all and when the battery
pack was set to 1000 amps and wasn't even up to temperature yet, and the
series launch amps were at 1800, it's reasonable to assume the current
version could run sub 1.59 second 60 ft. times...gotta love that
series-wound DC motor torque!
All in all, especially since a few days have past and I've had time to
assess things, I'd say I really shouldn't complain about how the car
performed. Who knows, on a warm night with lots of cars putting down
rubber on a stickier track, and with 6 or 7 passes under our belts and
more broken in batteries, perhaps a high 11 is waiting for us! The bad
news....PIR will be closed to drag racing the next two weekends because
of the Rose Festival road races :-(, then, I'm away for a week in
Alaska! The next time we'll be able to get to the track, won't be until
July.
A bit of good 'enviro' news...PIR officials gathered with the EV gang
around the facility's AC power grid boxes and gave full permission for
us to come up with and use a spider box that can tap into 3 phase
240vac! The next time we race at PIR, there will be no noise, stink, and
pollution from generators. There will also be abundant charging power
that from a selfish perspective, will jam three times the amps into the
Zombie's pack, as happens here at the Wayland EV juice bar. Recharge
time between runs should drop to about 8-10 minutes!
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
