EV Digest 5587
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Daytime lights requirement?
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Ampabout ... 3kw genset
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Ampabout ... 3kw genset
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Ampabout ... 3kw genset
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Daytime lights requirement?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: This Just In!!
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) death and rebirth of EV
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Ampabout ... 3kw genset
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV Conversion Business
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) What the limiting factor up a hill
by "Garret Maki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) mini monster garage
by Carl Clifford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: What the limiting factor up a hill
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: mini monster garage
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Video of Red Beastie's demise
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Ampabout ... 3kw genset
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) RE: What the limiting factor up a hill
by "Garret Maki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Ampabout ... 3kw genset
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: What the limiting factor up a hill
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Ampabout ... 3kw genset
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: What the limiting factor up a hill
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: What the limiting factor up a hill
by "Garret Maki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) micro-monorail project needs tech input
by "David Sofio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I second my thanks :)
I hope that someone will take the next step and invent more efficient
lights ;)
On 23 Jun 2006, at 02:20, David Roden wrote:
On 21 Jun 2006 at 13:25, Danny Miller wrote:
I'm an electrical engineer and crunched the numbers here awhile ago.
Outstanding analysis. Thanks for posting it.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
I'm not trying to be harsh, in fact, I have been amazed over the years at
the lengths Bruce has went through to get where he needs to go using his EV.
I'll bet there is not another person in this world who has personally
visited more charging outlets than Bruce.
It just baffles me how so many people that truly believe in EV's consider
using the worst possible ICE solution when they do finally give in and
realize that they are still dependent on the gas conglomerates.
It flies in the face of everything that got them into an EV in the first
place.
damon
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Ampabout ... 3kw genset
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 00:11:56 EDT
In a message dated 6/22/2006 8:46:08 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<<If even the hard core EV enthusiasts including ones who call
themselves EVangelists can't kick the petro habbit who can?>>
Wow... that's pretty harsh.
For you to condemn a man whose EV has been his sole form of transport for
many years just because he needs to use 25 or 30 gallons of gas is nothing
buy
silly zealotry.
Lighten up Francis
Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good point and one that I think does need to be stressed. Conversation is
the best solution.
Which is better for the environment, driving an EV 1000 miles a week or
driving an ICE 100 miles a week?
From: David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Ampabout ... 3kw genset
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 22:11:18 -0700 (PDT)
Something to keep in mind: About 1/2 the pollution a car makes over
its lifetime is created by manufacturing it, the other 1/2 by running
it. In the case of a superclean hybrid the ratio is even worse, most
of its pollution is from manufacture. Even more green than buying a
new hybrid is to electrify and keep using an old car. If you figure a
car uses about 3000 or 4000 gallons of gas in its life, using 30 or
40 gallons for a generator is probably more reasonable than running
out and buying a new hybrid.
<http://www.newscientist.com/backpage.ns?id=lw900>
--- damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> These threads always baffle me. EV's are the solution to the
> world's
> problems according to many on this list, yet we have a bunch of
> closet
> ICE-aholics figuring out ways to make their rides practical by
> slapping
> stinky, 0 pollution control, ridiculously low mileage gensets to
> the back of
> their EV's. If even the hard core EV enthusiasts including ones
> who call
> themselves EVangelists can't kick the petro habbit who can?
> Perhaps the big
> car companies are right and there really isn't a market for EV's
> :-(
>
> I say if you want a hybrid, there are thousands of nice clean
> efficient OEM
> ones available that do the job much better than anything a DIY EV
> enthusiast
> can cobble together, or just go the route of having an ICE that is
> parked
> most of the year and use the EV as much as possible. Gensets are
> about the
> worst way in the world to power an EV, you might as well hook a big
> pot
> belly coal burning stove to the back and dress up in a chimney
> sweep
> costume.
> ...
> >From: bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >To: evlist <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> >Subject: Re: Ampabout ... 3kw genset Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006
> 13:59:10 -0700
> >(PDT)
> >
> >Jack,
> >
> >I am trying to avoid using a small trailer. I am hoping I can
> >install a trailer hitch on my S-10 Blazer EV
> >http://www.racepages.com/fr3/parts/hitch/chevy/s10_blazer.html
> >
> >Then use a special trailer hitch accessory that will let me
> install
> >the genset on:
> >http://www.hitchcorner.com/atv-racks.htm
> >
> >Not having a trailer off the back of the EV will save weight and
> >not have the wheel drag of a two wheeled trailer.
> >
> >With the above accessory, I would have room and weight carrying
> >capacity to have a 5 gallon gas con on either side.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
that is a very good point, the amount of wasted energy building and
destroying cars is quite large. of course automakers don't mind that.
recall that robot movie, the villian stopped making parts available
(yeah I think it was called Parts? ) Us hotrodders like to say old cars
never die, they just go faster, now we can say they go greener. :)
David Dymaxion wrote:
Something to keep in mind: About 1/2 the pollution a car makes over
its lifetime is created by manufacturing it, the other 1/2 by running
it. In the case of a superclean hybrid the ratio is even worse, most
of its pollution is from manufacture. Even more green than buying a
new hybrid is to electrify and keep using an old car. If you figure a
car uses about 3000 or 4000 gallons of gas in its life, using 30 or
40 gallons for a generator is probably more reasonable than running
out and buying a new hybrid.
<http://www.newscientist.com/backpage.ns?id=lw900>
--- damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
These threads always baffle me. EV's are the solution to the
world's
problems according to many on this list, yet we have a bunch of
closet
ICE-aholics figuring out ways to make their rides practical by
slapping
stinky, 0 pollution control, ridiculously low mileage gensets to
the back of
their EV's. If even the hard core EV enthusiasts including ones
who call
themselves EVangelists can't kick the petro habbit who can?
Perhaps the big
car companies are right and there really isn't a market for EV's
:-(
I say if you want a hybrid, there are thousands of nice clean
efficient OEM
ones available that do the job much better than anything a DIY EV
enthusiast
can cobble together, or just go the route of having an ICE that is
parked
most of the year and use the EV as much as possible. Gensets are
about the
worst way in the world to power an EV, you might as well hook a big
pot
belly coal burning stove to the back and dress up in a chimney
sweep
costume.
...
From: bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: evlist <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Ampabout ... 3kw genset Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006
13:59:10 -0700
(PDT)
Jack,
I am trying to avoid using a small trailer. I am hoping I can
install a trailer hitch on my S-10 Blazer EV
http://www.racepages.com/fr3/parts/hitch/chevy/s10_blazer.html
Then use a special trailer hitch accessory that will let me
install
the genset on:
http://www.hitchcorner.com/atv-racks.htm
Not having a trailer off the back of the EV will save weight and
not have the wheel drag of a two wheeled trailer.
With the above accessory, I would have room and weight carrying
capacity to have a 5 gallon gas con on either side.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, when it comes down to it, a well designed halogen isn't really
that inefficient. They take a fairly substantial amount of power
because the task needs a whole lot of light. Even still, using
headlights isn't going to reduce your battery life substantially. We're
talking what, 2x 55w, total of 110W?
We also talked about HID lights before. These are more efficient, I
believe like half the power, and put out substantially more light.
However, they are quite expensive. Kits to retrofit regular headlights
are criticized for it being possible to focus it wrong and blind
people. But there are projectors designed for HID headlights on high
end cars with guaranteed appropriate spread. Still, people have
complained that getting an eyeful of it when say the driver goes over a
speedbump and puts the headlights too high for a moment is especially
blinding. But a real killer here is it takes like a minute or two to go
through a HID starting cycle, so they aren't even practical as high beam
headlights without some sort of mechanical reaiming motor to move it
from high to low, or perhaps a mechanical shutter.
Danny
nikki wrote:
I second my thanks :)
I hope that someone will take the next step and invent more efficient
lights ;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am very saddened to read this.
"Red Beastie" has a lot of historic value as far as EVs are
concerned. John Wayland made a 440 mile round trip from
Portland to Seattle and back with this truck. It proved that
hobbyists could build conversions with greater usable range
than the EVs the automakers were putting out, and for a much
lower cost.
This was also EV pioneer Dick Finley's last project before
he passed away. He was too ill to help finish it from what
I've read, and he gave John Wayland the go-ahead to make
that historic trip.
This truck did 120 miles per charge at 60 mph highway
speeds, and only needed 300 Wh/mile to do it. This was a
5,200 pound beast, with no LRR tires, and no significant
aerodynamic modifications, so 300 Wh/mile is really damn
good! Performance? I recall reading in the archives that it
did 0-60 mph in roughly 18 seconds. Not bad for a 5,200
pound truck, even if it only keeps up with traffic.
It was a very practical vehicle. John Wayland has used it to
haul other EVs on trailers, including 50 mile trips to the
racetrack.
Its loss is a definite blow to the EV community.
I hope Tony isn't too discouraged by the loss of his house,
shop, and EVs.
He should do another truck in this same vein to replace it.
Perhaps push the envelope farther than Dick Finley did;
aeromod the hell out of it, use LRR tires and all known
efficiency tricks in the book, and shoot for 200+ miles
highway range on lead acid batteries.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
interesting article:
Reincarnation GM's electric car may be dead, but start-up automaker Tesla
is betting that pump-weary Americans are ready for a rebirth. Here's the
link: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13459799/site/newsweek/
-Christine
---------------------------------
Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just
radically better.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't be baffled.
I own 3 cars, 1 pu, 1 EV and the ole pontiac Grand am. I need the pickup
but i is not a vehicle that can go out of town. I Could get rid of the
grand am if only the EV could go to moms house twice a year. The ICE car
has trouble sitting for long periods.
For twice a year, an add-on has to be parkable for long periods, so a
battery pack is not recomended. The drive ends in a 2000 or 3000 ft
climb. This leaves pusher or genset. Pusher has gasoline and oil and
long sitting period problems and takes up a lot of space. and is heavy
for what it does. Perhaps a veggie diesel genset or CNG genset would
ease your worries?
The genset can serve as a backup in case of a major power outage.
Eventually this becomes moot as the switch to lithium polymer packs and
personel wet fuelcell gensets become commonplace.
Renting a car for those few trips is great, but it doesn't get the EV to
location.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Before doing conversions for money, I would form a company frame to
protect my personal assets. In addition, I would have a LONG and intensive
talk to a lawyer in regards to warranties, risks and so on. The liability
question is potentially dangerous if one does conversions for money.
While most of us know about the risks of driving an electric vehicle, some
'normal' person might be unaware of the potential problems with EVs like
i.e. acid burns or damage, electric shock, fire hazard, runaway car due to
controller failure, reduced braking capabilities due to weight etc.
I personally believe, that the risk is not manageable for one person or a
small company. And it's probably not worth the profit.
Just my two cents.
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I am happy to report that for a few weeks now I have been actually using
my electric motorcycle for what I designed it for which is a 13 mile one
way highway commute into Boulder Colorado.
On level ground my top speed is maybe 60-65 mph. Heading home on US36
about 5 miles into the drive there is a very large mile long hill. At
the steepest part of the hill my speed drops to 49 MPH. At that point I
am pulling about 140-160 battery amps and about the same on the motor
side at ~66 volts on a 72v system. My motor is a 12HP D&D ES33 series
motor very similar, supposedly better than an ADC K91.
Does anyone have a gut feel on if it is my motor or my batteries that
are dropping the speed so much on this climb? I have a 450 amp
controller so I am thinking it is the batteries not being able to source
more current. What do you all think? On a fresh charge I see the
batteries put out up to 400 amps I am just not sure they can to it long
term like on the hill.
I wonder if I changed to a Deka Intimidator AGM battery I could solve
this issue.
I am using Trojan SCS150 flooded marine batteries currently :)
Thanks,
Garret Maki
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/623.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Somebody talk me out of this.
I've been gathering 48v regen Club Car parts on ebay to put in a motorcycle
conversion I am planning. I had planned to use 4 yellow tops but now I see
this $10 deal on 18v Black and decker nicad tool packs at Amazon.
I figure I could make 3 parallel packs of 10 each, and put those in series.
Then I could switch them back to parallel and possibly use the black and decker
quick charger to charge the whole pack overnight.
I can't get a line on the actual amphours of these, but my guess is that I
would have similar capacity to my yellow top scenario, plus the ability to
discharge them more deeply and get good range even when the weather is cooler.
Anyway, perhaps someone with a better understanding of charging/stringing
these things can tell me whether this is a workable idea.
Thanks
Carl Clifford
Denver
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000302V2/variofileform-20/103-3785428-6551031?creative=327641&camp=14573&adid=1MBC10KQNEA4K48W0SP4&link_code=as1
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's most likely the batteries, although I would say that if your top speed
is 60 - 65 on the flat, you are doing quite well to maintain 49 on a long
sustained climb. It sounds like the controller could push more into the
motor and the motor will accept as much power as you give it until it starts
to melt. I suspect if you are pushing the batteries that hard that often
you will be looking for a new set soon anyhow.
You didn't mention what the battery voltage is sagging to. This is the real
key to knowing how hard you are pushing them, also if you had a way to look
at individual batteries you may find that it is one or two duds slowing you
down. I would suggest a voltmeter hooked to a different battery each day so
you can compare.
Damon
From: "Garret Maki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: What the limiting factor up a hill
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 10:38:26 -0400
Hi all,
I am happy to report that for a few weeks now I have been actually using
my electric motorcycle for what I designed it for which is a 13 mile one
way highway commute into Boulder Colorado.
On level ground my top speed is maybe 60-65 mph. Heading home on US36
about 5 miles into the drive there is a very large mile long hill. At
the steepest part of the hill my speed drops to 49 MPH. At that point I
am pulling about 140-160 battery amps and about the same on the motor
side at ~66 volts on a 72v system. My motor is a 12HP D&D ES33 series
motor very similar, supposedly better than an ADC K91.
Does anyone have a gut feel on if it is my motor or my batteries that
are dropping the speed so much on this climb? I have a 450 amp
controller so I am thinking it is the batteries not being able to source
more current. What do you all think? On a fresh charge I see the
batteries put out up to 400 amps I am just not sure they can to it long
term like on the hill.
I wonder if I changed to a Deka Intimidator AGM battery I could solve
this issue.
I am using Trojan SCS150 flooded marine batteries currently :)
Thanks,
Garret Maki
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/623.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-2.4 Amps with new cobalt technology for extended run
time and longer battery life
Looks like 2.4 Ahr.
Not much for $78 a pop.
Could get quite expensive.
You would be better off with a string of BB600's which
are single cell (1.2V) and 30Ahr.
Damon Henry is running a string of these in his
motorcycle and Chris Zach has a set in his Elec Trak.
Rod
--- Carl Clifford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Somebody talk me out of this.
>
> I've been gathering 48v regen Club Car parts on
> ebay to put in a motorcycle conversion I am
> planning. I had planned to use 4 yellow tops but
> now I see this $10 deal on 18v Black and decker
> nicad tool packs at Amazon.
>
> I figure I could make 3 parallel packs of 10 each,
> and put those in series. Then I could switch them
> back to parallel and possibly use the black and
> decker quick charger to charge the whole pack
> overnight.
>
> I can't get a line on the actual amphours of
> these, but my guess is that I would have similar
> capacity to my yellow top scenario, plus the ability
> to discharge them more deeply and get good range
> even when the weather is cooler.
>
> Anyway, perhaps someone with a better
> understanding of charging/stringing these things can
> tell me whether this is a workable idea.
>
> Thanks
>
> Carl Clifford
> Denver
>
>
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000302V2/variofileform-20/103-3785428-6551031?creative=327641&camp=14573&adid=1MBC10KQNEA4K48W0SP4&link_code=as1
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow.. What a Sad way to see a Ev that has my Blood sweat and Tears in it
go...
But.. Glad Tony and his Mom are OK.
Man Red Beastie sure brings back some charging Stories...or nightmares...
The best are the ones that take the most effort...
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: Video of Red Beastie's demise
> Thanks Jay:
>
> That was about the best news clip I have scene. You see the E Rabbit in
a
> shot, with the firemen around it. And Tony's 15 seconds of fame , live, on
> TV.But a crappy way to get on TV. Yeah! The Foo-Bah Construction Co won't
> take any calls, probably haven't got any insurance?If they were on the
> Leval. Pun Intended, they woulda been on the tube apologising. We got any
> Lawyers on the List? Bet this would be a good case? Glad Tony and his Mon
> were out shopping.
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 7:53 PM
> Subject: Video of Red Beastie's demise
>
>
> > http://www3.whdh.com/news/articles/local/BO21316/
> > I don't think anybody's posted this link yet.
> > Condolences to Tony.
> > -Jay Donnaway
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
> > and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Damon-
> Which is better for the environment, driving an EV 1000 miles a week or
> driving an ICE 100 miles a week?
Answer: It depends on the type of fuel being used to create the electricity
that the ICE uses.
Let's assume the electricity is coming from at best 80% hydropower, and that
the remainder 20% is coming from 30% efficient burning of fossil fuels at the
electric plant. Let's assume the EV conversion of electricity to motion is 80%
efficient.
Now, assume that the ICE is 25% efficient in fossil fuel to motion conversion.
Finally, let's assume the vehicles are identical in weight and air loses.
ICE usage in 100miles: k*100/0.25 = 400k
EV usage in 1000miles: k*1000 * 0.2 / 0.3 = 660k
EV is worse for the environment given the above.
-Myles
would bis better for the environment.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Good point and one that I think does need to be stressed. Conversation is
> the best solution.
>
> Which is better for the environment, driving an EV 1000 miles a week or
> driving an ICE 100 miles a week?
>
>
> >From: David Dymaxion
> >Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >Subject: Re: Ampabout ... 3kw genset
> >Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 22:11:18 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >Something to keep in mind: About 1/2 the pollution a car makes over
> >its lifetime is created by manufacturing it, the other 1/2 by running
> >it. In the case of a superclean hybrid the ratio is even worse, most
> >of its pollution is from manufacture. Even more green than buying a
> >new hybrid is to electrify and keep using an old car. If you figure a
> >car uses about 3000 or 4000 gallons of gas in its life, using 30 or
> >40 gallons for a generator is probably more reasonable than running
> >out and buying a new hybrid.
> >
> >
> >
> >--- damon henry wrote:
> > > These threads always baffle me. EV's are the solution to the
> > > world's
> > > problems according to many on this list, yet we have a bunch of
> > > closet
> > > ICE-aholics figuring out ways to make their rides practical by
> > > slapping
> > > stinky, 0 pollution control, ridiculously low mileage gensets to
> > > the back of
> > > their EV's. If even the hard core EV enthusiasts including ones
> > > who call
> > > themselves EVangelists can't kick the petro habbit who can?
> > > Perhaps the big
> > > car companies are right and there really isn't a market for EV's
> > > :-(
> > >
> > > I say if you want a hybrid, there are thousands of nice clean
> > > efficient OEM
> > > ones available that do the job much better than anything a DIY EV
> > > enthusiast
> > > can cobble together, or just go the route of having an ICE that is
> > > parked
> > > most of the year and use the EV as much as possible. Gensets are
> > > about the
> > > worst way in the world to power an EV, you might as well hook a big
> > > pot
> > > belly coal burning stove to the back and dress up in a chimney
> > > sweep
> > > costume.
> > > ...
> > > >From: bruce parmenter
> > > >Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > > >To: evlist
> > > >Subject: Re: Ampabout ... 3kw genset Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006
> > > 13:59:10 -0700
> > > >(PDT)
> > > >
> > > >Jack,
> > > >
> > > >I am trying to avoid using a small trailer. I am hoping I can
> > > >install a trailer hitch on my S-10 Blazer EV
> > > >http://www.racepages.com/fr3/parts/hitch/chevy/s10_blazer.html
> > > >
> > > >Then use a special trailer hitch accessory that will let me
> > > install
> > > >the genset on:
> > > >http://www.hitchcorner.com/atv-racks.htm
> > > >
> > > >Not having a trailer off the back of the EV will save weight and
> > > >not have the wheel drag of a two wheeled trailer.
> > > >
> > > >With the above accessory, I would have room and weight carrying
> > > >capacity to have a 5 gallon gas con on either side.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do You Yahoo!?
> >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> >http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Damon,
The pack is sagging to about 66 volts if I remember correctly. I will
watch on the drive home in a couple hours. No need for the voltmeter
now that I put in one of these nifty monitors. I really like it. I
have the indicator light my "fuel" warning indicator on the dash to be
extra trick too.
http://www.casadelgato.com/CasaDelGatoSystems/index_files/Page561.htm
I take out between 20 and 24 amp hours on the drive according to the
Link 10. Considering the rate of discharge and the Puekerts exponent I
am around 60-70% DoD. At about $600 for a replacement battery string it
isn't too bad. I am sorry I passed on getting the bb600 nicads when the
chance was there.
-Garret
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of damon henry
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 9:39 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: What the limiting factor up a hill
It's most likely the batteries, although I would say that if your top
speed
is 60 - 65 on the flat, you are doing quite well to maintain 49 on a
long
sustained climb. It sounds like the controller could push more into the
motor and the motor will accept as much power as you give it until it
starts
to melt. I suspect if you are pushing the batteries that hard that
often
you will be looking for a new set soon anyhow.
You didn't mention what the battery voltage is sagging to. This is the
real
key to knowing how hard you are pushing them, also if you had a way to
look
at individual batteries you may find that it is one or two duds slowing
you
down. I would suggest a voltmeter hooked to a different battery each
day so
you can compare.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Those numbers does not work for me.
I was driving my ICE about 25 miles a week going about 1/2 miles runs every
hour at 15 mph which display about 5 mpg. The ICE never warm up driving that
short range. Replace the engine three times and the transmission two times.
I am now driving my EV about 25 miles a week on the same route which is equal
to 75 mpg. Replace the controller once, and the batteries three times in 30
years.
Only charge the batteries starting at 79% and ending at 90% about once a week
for about 15 minutes.
The EV was driven only one time way back in 1976 for 1056 miles in 24 hours to
show that a EV can be driven 1000 miles in a day.
The power comes from five hydropower dams where the second dam uses the recycle
water from the first and so on.
We also have over 150 windpower machines that provide the remainder of the
power.
I no longer drive the ICE 25 miles a week, it is something like 100 miles a
year only on the longer distance driving that displays about 20 mpg.
The last time I fill up the ICE was about a year ago, which took about 5
gallons at $1.80 a gallon.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: Ampabout ... 3kw genset
Damon-
> Which is better for the environment, driving an EV 1000 miles a week or
> driving an ICE 100 miles a week?
Answer: It depends on the type of fuel being used to create the electricity
that the ICE uses.
Let's assume the electricity is coming from at best 80% hydropower, and that
the remainder 20% is coming from 30% efficient burning of fossil fuels at the
electric plant. Let's assume the EV conversion of electricity to motion is 80%
efficient.
Now, assume that the ICE is 25% efficient in fossil fuel to motion
conversion. Finally, let's assume the vehicles are identical in weight and air
loses.
ICE usage in 100miles: k*100/0.25 = 400k
EV usage in 1000miles: k*1000 * 0.2 / 0.3 = 660k
EV is worse for the environment given the above.
-Myles
would bis better for the environment.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> Good point and one that I think does need to be stressed. Conversation is
> the best solution.
>
> Which is better for the environment, driving an EV 1000 miles a week or
> driving an ICE 100 miles a week?
>
>
> >From: David Dymaxion
> >Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> >To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> >Subject: Re: Ampabout ... 3kw genset
> >Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 22:11:18 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >Something to keep in mind: About 1/2 the pollution a car makes over
> >its lifetime is created by manufacturing it, the other 1/2 by running
> >it. In the case of a superclean hybrid the ratio is even worse, most
> >of its pollution is from manufacture. Even more green than buying a
> >new hybrid is to electrify and keep using an old car. If you figure a
> >car uses about 3000 or 4000 gallons of gas in its life, using 30 or
> >40 gallons for a generator is probably more reasonable than running
> >out and buying a new hybrid.
> >
> >
> >
> >--- damon henry wrote:
> > > These threads always baffle me. EV's are the solution to the
> > > world's
> > > problems according to many on this list, yet we have a bunch of
> > > closet
> > > ICE-aholics figuring out ways to make their rides practical by
> > > slapping
> > > stinky, 0 pollution control, ridiculously low mileage gensets to
> > > the back of
> > > their EV's. If even the hard core EV enthusiasts including ones
> > > who call
> > > themselves EVangelists can't kick the petro habbit who can?
> > > Perhaps the big
> > > car companies are right and there really isn't a market for EV's
> > > :-(
> > >
> > > I say if you want a hybrid, there are thousands of nice clean
> > > efficient OEM
> > > ones available that do the job much better than anything a DIY EV
> > > enthusiast
> > > can cobble together, or just go the route of having an ICE that is
> > > parked
> > > most of the year and use the EV as much as possible. Gensets are
> > > about the
> > > worst way in the world to power an EV, you might as well hook a big
> > > pot
> > > belly coal burning stove to the back and dress up in a chimney
> > > sweep
> > > costume.
> > > ...
> > > >From: bruce parmenter
> > > >Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > > >To: evlist
> > > >Subject: Re: Ampabout ... 3kw genset Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006
> > > 13:59:10 -0700
> > > >(PDT)
> > > >
> > > >Jack,
> > > >
> > > >I am trying to avoid using a small trailer. I am hoping I can
> > > >install a trailer hitch on my S-10 Blazer EV
> > > >http://www.racepages.com/fr3/parts/hitch/chevy/s10_blazer.html
> > > >
> > > >Then use a special trailer hitch accessory that will let me
> > > install
> > > >the genset on:
> > > >http://www.hitchcorner.com/atv-racks.htm
> > > >
> > > >Not having a trailer off the back of the EV will save weight and
> > > >not have the wheel drag of a two wheeled trailer.
> > > >
> > > >With the above accessory, I would have room and weight carrying
> > > >capacity to have a 5 gallon gas con on either side.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do You Yahoo!?
> >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> >http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That 160 amps is a fair chunk of current for batteries that are designed to
power 25 amp trolling motors. My guess is that you're getting a little
lower in the DOD department by that point in the drive, and the battery's
internal resistance is working against you.
I'm betting you have trouble exceeding 200 cycles on that pack. Especially
given the safety issues with a bike (the thought of battery acid in road
rash makes me cringe), this is a case where I'd recommend AGM batteries
instead even though they will increase the cost of operation.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 23 Jun 2006 at 6:05, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> For twice a year, an add-on has to be parkable for long periods, so a
> battery pack is not recomended.
I don't really think this is necessarily so. Good AGM and gel batteries
have very low self discharge. Periodic charging - every 2-3 months - is
plenty to maintain them. In fact, if they're not allowed to get too hot in
the interim, you could probably park such a battery trailer for 6 months and
just top it off before using it.
Many fueled machines have storage problems, too. I'm no expert on this, but
I note that the maintenance folks run the Diesel-fueled standby genset at my
workplace once a month to keep it limber, which wastes a fair bit of fuel.
I don't know much about Diesel's storage characteristics, but I've long read
that gasoline deteriorates and causes deposits in fuel systems. I suspect
that CNG or propane would be better. Others here may know more about this.
I think the real answer to the problem is a modified station car or vehicle-
sharing scheme, where the user who needs a different vehicle now and then
just drives to the motorpool and swaps for what he needs. Planning a
camping trip into the wilds? Leave your EV and take a SUV. Need to buy
some lumber? Use a pickup for the weekend. Taking a vacation with the
kids? Reserve a minivan for 2 weeks.
This scheme, if widely implemented, even addresses your concern with not
having the EV at the trip destination - when you arrive, stop by the
motorpool there and swap for an EV. Return it and get an ICE when you're
ready to go home.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
> That 160 amps is a fair chunk of current for batteries that
> are designed to power 25 amp trolling motors.
Trojan actually does rate this battery at both 25A and 75A discharge
rates; it is definitely a warning sign if they only have a 25A rating,
but it appears Trojan considers these batteries suitable for higher rate
use.
> My guess is that you're getting a little lower in the DOD
> department by that point in the drive, and the battery's
> internal resistance is working against you.
Possibly, but 66V is only 1.83V/cell. From the 25A and 75A ratings we
can see that the Peukert exponent for these batteries is fairly
(particularly? ;^) poor at 1.299. This suggests a capacity of about
36Ah @ 160A and corresponds to the 60-70% DOD Garret estimates for his
20-24Ah commute.
> Especially given the safety issues with a bike (the thought
> of battery acid in road rash makes me cringe), this is a
> case where I'd recommend AGM batteries
I agree wholeheartedly! ;^>
Some possible options include:
Optima D34M (Bluetop): 6lbs or so ligher than the SCS150, smaller in the
length and height but 1/8" wider. Comparable (or slightly better)
capacity to the SCS150 at these discharge rates, and will sag less which
will help performance. Routinely cycling to 60-70% DOD may impact cycle
life.
Optima D31M (Group 31 Bluetop): about 10lbs heavier than the SCS150, and
1-9/16" longer (but shorter and narrower). Significantly more capacity
than the SCS150 or D34M, which translates to shallower DOD and should
result in greater cycle life. The D31Ms may cost more initially, but
the shallower DOD may extend the cycle life more than enough to
compensate. Big question is how much headache the extra length causes.
I suspect the extra 60lbs will go unnoticed on a bike the size of an
FJ1200 ;^>
Exide Orbital 34XCD: about 9lbs lighter than the SCS150, smaller in the
length and height dimensions but 1/4" wider. Pretty much the same as
the Optima D34M otherwise. Orbitals tend to cost a bit less than the
Optimas, which might be a factor.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger,
I was thinking of the Deka Intimidator AGM because there is a wholesaler
out here in Denver. It has pretty much the same specs as the Optima
Yellow tops and my cost is $95. The optima YT is more like $160 I
think. Checker Auto sells the Orbital for $160 but would price match if
I found a better deal, but the side terminals may give me trouble.
The Trojans are doing ok and at $70 each for my first batteries.
If I go with a fresh set of AGMs this summer I'll probably send my
Delta-Q charger back to you to get the new charging algorythem loaded.
On level ground I am in the 100-110 amp range at wide open ~60 mph.
-Garret
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 1:32 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: What the limiting factor up a hill
David Roden wrote:
> That 160 amps is a fair chunk of current for batteries that
> are designed to power 25 amp trolling motors.
Trojan actually does rate this battery at both 25A and 75A discharge
rates; it is definitely a warning sign if they only have a 25A rating,
but it appears Trojan considers these batteries suitable for higher rate
use.
> My guess is that you're getting a little lower in the DOD
> department by that point in the drive, and the battery's
> internal resistance is working against you.
Possibly, but 66V is only 1.83V/cell. From the 25A and 75A ratings we
can see that the Peukert exponent for these batteries is fairly
(particularly? ;^) poor at 1.299. This suggests a capacity of about
36Ah @ 160A and corresponds to the 60-70% DOD Garret estimates for his
20-24Ah commute.
> Especially given the safety issues with a bike (the thought
> of battery acid in road rash makes me cringe), this is a
> case where I'd recommend AGM batteries
I agree wholeheartedly! ;^>
Some possible options include:
Optima D34M (Bluetop): 6lbs or so ligher than the SCS150, smaller in the
length and height but 1/8" wider. Comparable (or slightly better)
capacity to the SCS150 at these discharge rates, and will sag less which
will help performance. Routinely cycling to 60-70% DOD may impact cycle
life.
Optima D31M (Group 31 Bluetop): about 10lbs heavier than the SCS150, and
1-9/16" longer (but shorter and narrower). Significantly more capacity
than the SCS150 or D34M, which translates to shallower DOD and should
result in greater cycle life. The D31Ms may cost more initially, but
the shallower DOD may extend the cycle life more than enough to
compensate. Big question is how much headache the extra length causes.
I suspect the extra 60lbs will go unnoticed on a bike the size of an
FJ1200 ;^>
Exide Orbital 34XCD: about 9lbs lighter than the SCS150, smaller in the
length and height dimensions but 1/4" wider. Pretty much the same as
the Optima D34M otherwise. Orbitals tend to cost a bit less than the
Optimas, which might be a factor.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, new guy says hi & my apologies if something like this was just discussed
three days ago:
I'm working on feasibility for a micro-monorail (NOT anything like an
infrastructure project; it would be for maybe four adults, or a bunch of
building material, etc) to get up some difficult terrain to places higher on
my hillside property. Gas/diesel monorails like this are not unheard of in
Korea & Japan, and probably elsewhere outside of OSHA reach (see
http://bhmr.co.kr/product/mono/rail1/ks-101.htm for an example, in Korean).
I want to build a DC electric version for my place. Rubber tires would be
out of place, since we're talking about slopes from say 30 to 45 degrees.
I need to get a ballpark sense of what motor voltage/HP, battery count, etc
would be required to do this, and maybe how often charging would be
necessary. As a first pass at this, my rusty physics tells me (using energy
methods) that if I want to move a 500kg (1100lb) payload up to an elevation
that is 150m (500') above "base camp," and if I arbitrarily decide I'd like
to do this at 7mph over a 1000' long path, it will take me about 100 seconds
to do so (yeah, that might be a terrifying speed). If my calcs are about
right, this results in a burn rate of 7500W for that 100-second trip. Then
it's all downhill, maybe another load (or maybe a spectacular crash
involving broken gears and fine mists of sulfuric acid...) etc.
Anyway, based on that theoretical 7500W, at the conversion rate of 746W/HP,
I'd need 10HP to do the deed, this assuming perfect efficiency. (Might this
alone be enough to pick out a nice motor?) And--here's where I get even
less sure of the numbers-- if I decided 48V is a reasonable pack voltage,
then from P=IV, 7500W/48V = 156A required for that 100s trip. Drawing 156A
from four 12V cells for occasional 100-second trips should be pretty easy,
right? And maybe 36VDC might work as well?
And if I make some more wild assumptions about energy-efficiency in this
process and assume I lose 20% to friction, motor losses, controller, etc
then I'd still be in the ballpark...or would I? Anyone?
Anyway, you see what I'm getting at. I want not to buy either an undersized
or oversized motor/controller for the job right off, and of course even
before that, I want to be sure this isn't all totally Quixotic. Yeah, lots
of machine work, but worth it if it gets me to elevations that are not
accessible otherwise without some dangerous hiking. Any recommendations?
Next consideration will be transmission. Final drive--my 'gear' that will
be my equivalent of a tire on a road-going EV-- needs to spin at something
like 600RPM max. On the input side, then, what would typical motor
peak-efficiency speed ranges be, for the series-wound motors that I think I
am after? From the very few curves I have seen, I'm given to thinking that
this is going to be a pretty big gear-down, say from most-efficient input
RPM of 6-10,000 to my puny final-drive of up to 600RPM at top speed, or a
ratio of something like 100:1 or more. Any suggestions for this
transmission setup to give me a single output (no differential required) to
drive my theoretical gear on the monorail's long rack?
Mahalo,
Dave
Honolulu
--- End Message ---
