EV Digest 5647
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Rev Gadget Nimh D Cell Pack
by "Adrian DeLeon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Rev Gadget Nimh D Cell Pack
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: OT re:WKTEC GM's Reply/Blog
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) My Rear End
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Better range with low seat height
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Trying to understand shunt regs
by "Mark Fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: who's reviving the electric car?
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Chris Paine to Ride in White Zombie
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Rev Gadget Nimh D Cell Pack
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Chris Paine to Ride in White Zombie
by "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: who's reviving the electric car?
by "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Trying to understand shunt regs
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Aero shaft drive idea.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: Chris Paine to Ride in White Zombie
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Aero shaft drive idea.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Rev Gadget Nimh D Cell Pack
by "Jonathan Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Trying to understand shunt regs
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Aero shaft drive idea.
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Rev Gadget Nimh D Cell Pack
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Rev Gadget Nimh D Cell Pack- Gaia converters
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Small, high-power delivery batteries
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Small AC Drive systems
by "Chris Brune" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Keep AGMs under 14V, was: Trying to understand shunt regs
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Keep AGMs under 14V, was: Trying to understand shunt regs
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) "Who Killed the Electric Car" radio blurb tomorrow (Friday) morning on CBC
Radio One at 8:36am Central.
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: OT re:WKTEC GM's Reply
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Fun at the Movies...Chris Paine meets White Zombie!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: OT re:WKTEC GM's Reply
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The L.A. Weekly article said Gadget is doing a D cell
Nimh pack for a custom conversion he is doing.
How much would such a pack cost?
You can buy 9AH NiMH D cells @ $10 each from Mouser, Digi-Key, Jameco,
etc. A 120V, 90AH pack would be 1000 batteries or ~$10K + BMS + charging
+ thermal, etc.
I've dreamt of using 30 NiMH D's as a 36V, 9AH battery for my bicycle.
Could a 30 cell NiMH string be safely trickle charged @ C/10 for 15 hours
without a BMS? My 8 cell R/C airplane packs seem to survive it OK. Wonder
if I could stuff them inside the bike frame :)
Adrian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
About a year ago, I attempted to string together some high cap AA cells.
NICD
AA
1.7 AH each
They were RFE in packs of 6 AA ea with thermal protection. I put together
"bricks" of 5 of these packs each in parallel = 7.2 V x 8.5 AH. Then, I took 5
of these building blocks and strung them in series to make a 36 V x 8.5 AH. It
was thermally fused all over the place so no cell could go over 1 A nominal
discharge, max 2.5 A. So, you could pull about 5 A off the thing, up to about
10 A before it would shut down. I planned to build many of these "power
sticks" and run them in series parallel for a 72 V x 51 AH pack and use it in a
car. Because of the thermal fuese, I couldn't pull over 50 A ... But, it
turns out that I needed more like 144 V x 180 AH to make anything decent. I
didn't have enough batteries for that, so they are all still sitting in my
storage area. I didn't have any issues charging or discharging at those rates
with the 5 pack in parallel, but I didn't really do any extensive testing and I
wasn't using high currents.
Steve
Adrian DeLeon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
David Dymaxion wrote:
> The L.A. Weekly article said Gadget is doing a D cell
> Nimh pack for a custom conversion he is doing.
> How much would such a pack cost?
You can buy 9AH NiMH D cells @ $10 each from Mouser, Digi-Key, Jameco,
etc. A 120V, 90AH pack would be 1000 batteries or ~$10K + BMS + charging
+ thermal, etc.
I've dreamt of using 30 NiMH D's as a 36V, 9AH battery for my bicycle.
Could a 30 cell NiMH string be safely trickle charged @ C/10 for 15 hours
without a BMS? My 8 cell R/C airplane packs seem to survive it OK. Wonder
if I could stuff them inside the bike frame :)
Adrian
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
Is this an 'Internet' fact<G> or did you do you have some sort of data to
support it?
What kills me is with all of this talk of GM and FC technology,
only
3% of this list has a BMS in their EV.
Mike
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In the interest of efficiency & reducing rear end noise, I took out the Mobile
1 synthetic in my Cushman rear end & replaced it with Lucas synthetic oil
stabalizer per NAPA recommendation. The top worm gear & ring (I just replaced)
is now operating cooler but more noticeably the wheel bearings that were
squeeking a bit are now quiet. The oil appears tackier and is probably slung
up to the top gear and stays there longer. Also when the motor coasts, the
differential is quieter during that mode as well.
BTW, someone had a controller going to 130F (54C) and thought that was hot
but it is not. Mine goes regularly to 130-140F, the thermal cut back I used to
design for at GE-EV was 90C (194F) where the controller would cut back the
current to not exceed that heat sink temperature.
Best Regards,
Mark
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.coolfuelroadtrip.com/technology.htm
Click on Cool Fuel Vehicles, then Electra Cruiser.
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Got any specs on that? I can't find anything on the web. Lawrence
> Rhodes...
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, Steve and all:
Thanks you for your help. The bulb was in fact blown. In fact, I blew
another one before things were working properly. It does help to put the
cathodes to the positive pole!
(-) (+)
-----|>]----(/\/\/)----|>]------
z-6.8V PR2 z-6.8V
Here is a photo of the setup:
http://www.x-plane.org/home/mf70/_data/Prototype-shunts.JPG
My hope is that I can put the shunts in a line so they can be easily
monitored.
They are heatsinked by being epoxied into stretched-out 12GA ring terminals,
which are bolted to the aluminum strip as the heat sink. (West marine was
willing to sell me #6 terminals for $1.25 EACH! I didn't "bite.") I'll use
dielectric compound and proper size screws in the final installation. I
think this will be enough area to dissapate 40W of heat, which would only
occur above 61 volts - higher than I hope to go for the 48V pack!
I'll also dip each lamp-zener assembly in epoxy as electrical insulation.
The lines to the batteries are also fused. Having the heat sink run across
the exposed zener leads is a little exciting. I'll secure the heat sink
mechanically, and probably put heat-shrink on the leads as well to reduce
the chance of chafe.
In use, with a mis-matched pair of batteries, the shunt across the better
battery indeed glows. Even at float voltage of 27.6V, the "working" zeners
are quite warm.
Thanks again,
Mark
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/822
........................
> > Here is the current vs. voltage relationship.
> >
> > Current Voltage
> > ------- -------
> > 0.1ma 12.46v
> > 1ma 12.88v negligible current when not on charge
> > 10ma 13.18v
> > 100ma 13.60v starts bypassing when battery exceeds gassing threshold
> > 200ma 14.42v lamp begins to glow
> > 500ma 15.24v lamp fully lit and limiting current
...........................
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Now do the same for EVs. The KOA campground thing would be a great start -
> imagine KOA billboards advertising "EV charging available". Even if no EVs
> ever get charged at a KOA (aren't most of them in the middle of nowhere?),
> the resulting EV exposure goes way up. Once the billboard is amended it's
> free advertising. The beauty here is that no actual charging stations need
> to be built!
Exactly my point. While some of those KOAs are in the middle of nowhere,
quite a few are at interesting locations (see
http://www.koa.com/where/usa.htm). It might be a win/win situation: The
campground owners get an additional income source (well.. at least
theoretically ;) and the EV community gets coverage and charging
opportunities.
And - wouldn't it be nice to be add a few hundered charging stations to
the list ? And: EVs might become an interesting alternative to thousands
of RVers who pull their cars behind motorhomes ...
But that should only serve as an example of how to create awareness
without shelling out thousands of dollars. I would wish that EAA would
take advantage of Wal Marts new found 'green soul' in suggesting to have
charging ports at all WalMarts. The new 'Greening of America (NewsWeek)'
NOW gives tremedous opportunities to move forward. The momentum is there.
Use it or lose it.
mm.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
A quick note....a few photos from last night's fun with Chris Paine are
up under the 'Photos' section at the Plasma Boy web page. Look for a
detailed post later tonight. My best line of the night, after Chris had
told me he'd ridden in tZero...."OK, so you you've ridden in a slow EV,
now it's time to ride in a fast one!"
See Ya.....John Wayland
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Adrian DeLeon wrote:
> I've dreamt of using 30 NiMH D's as a 36V, 9AH battery for my bicycle.
> Could a 30 cell NiMH string be safely trickle charged @ C/10 for 15
> hours without a BMS? My 8 cell R/C airplane packs seem to survive
> it OK.
Nimh cells don't last long if you trickle charge them. They do in
consumer products all the time, though, as it is cheap. The consumer
will throw the thing away before it accumulates more than a couple
hundred cycles.
If you want to go without a BMS, use nicads. They tolerate trickle
charging quite well. A nicad D cell is more like 4 amphours, and will
almost certainly last longer and have lower internal resistance than a
nimh D cell without battery management.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey John,
Great quote! I'm sure he had a blast. Looking forward to your post with the
details.
It's nice to see you've got a little tread back on the tires in picture 3!
Matt Graham
300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
http://www.jouleinjected.com
Hobe Sound, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: John Wayland [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 11:43 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Chris Paine to Ride in White Zombie
Hello to All,
A quick note....a few photos from last night's fun with Chris Paine are up
under the 'Photos' section at the Plasma Boy web page. Look for a detailed
post later tonight. My best line of the night, after Chris had told me he'd
ridden in tZero...."OK, so you you've ridden in a slow EV, now it's time to
ride in a fast one!"
See Ya.....John Wayland
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You know, if plug-in hybrids catch on, that may increase demand for EV
charging stations. So, the quest for EV PR could turn out to get a boost
from this independent interest for charging.
Peri Hartman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, 13 July, 2006 07:53
Subject: Re: who's reviving the electric car?
Now do the same for EVs. The KOA campground thing would be a great start -
imagine KOA billboards advertising "EV charging available". Even if no EVs
ever get charged at a KOA (aren't most of them in the middle of nowhere?),
the resulting EV exposure goes way up. Once the billboard is amended it's
free advertising. The beauty here is that no actual charging stations need
to be built!
Exactly my point. While some of those KOAs are in the middle of nowhere,
quite a few are at interesting locations (see
http://www.koa.com/where/usa.htm). It might be a win/win situation: The
campground owners get an additional income source (well.. at least
theoretically ;) and the EV community gets coverage and charging
opportunities.
And - wouldn't it be nice to be add a few hundered charging stations to
the list ? And: EVs might become an interesting alternative to thousands
of RVers who pull their cars behind motorhomes ...
But that should only serve as an example of how to create awareness
without shelling out thousands of dollars. I would wish that EAA would
take advantage of Wal Marts new found 'green soul' in suggesting to have
charging ports at all WalMarts. The new 'Greening of America (NewsWeek)'
NOW gives tremedous opportunities to move forward. The momentum is there.
Use it or lose it.
mm.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, an interesting thing I am noticing about the Lee regs:
When I charge the car with the Magnecharger and watch the pack with the
E-meter, the regs do interesting stuff to the voltage charge points. For
example: My wife took the Prizm (300v, 52ah pack with 2 strings 26ah
batteries, 30ah max reasonable discharge, 3 years old now) out on a run
last night. 20 miles, 19ah down.
When plugged into the MC, the batteries sat at around 315-319 volts at a
11a charge rate (constant current) to about 4ah remaining. Then when I
checked in later, the charger had hit the 340 volt setpoint and was
charging at 2a rate with 2ah to go. However the voltage was down to 330
volts.
This morning, the pack was charged. E-meter read +.6ah up (98% CEF I
think, I'll double check) but I don't think the voltage ever goes above
350 volts actual.
Reason why is this: The MC does temp compensation and I put the temp
probes on the battery interconnects. When the regs start going, you can
tell because the lugs warm up which warms the interconnects and gives
false high readings to the temp sensors. I've programmed the MC to
throttle back voltage when it sees this and hit it's setpoints early.
What I see is that the MC charges away at full blast for about 80% of
the charge time. When the pack hits around 2ah down from full, the regs
come on all over the place (they have hit 13.8 average) and the MC
throttles down. It then charges away at 2a rate for the last 2-3ah,
which is a bit over the reg capacity (2*500ma=1a rate they can reg) but
below what should vent a hawker.
So far the pack has been using the regs since march or so and has not
blown up. I still have the 20 mile range without dropping the batteries
below 275 (11vpb) under load. This isn't bad. And when the pack is cold,
I can plug it in with the dolphin and have the pack rip up to 389 volts
at a 2a charge rate within an hour, so the batteries probably really are
full.
I guess my question is do these numbers seem sane based on other
people's reg experiences? I'm planning on dropping the pack in October
to see how it looks, but can you really charge batteries like this while
only going to 14 volts per battery on average?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > Hi Dave an' EVerybody;
>
> I'll throw this one in for ideas; The University of New Haven ran a small
> truk, Chevy?In the Tour De Sol, using the rear end from an old VW bug. The
> newer independent setup. They had lottsa room for batteries amodships, no
> driveshaft, and the VW rear is used to the motor hanging out the back. Far
> as I know, nobody ELSE has done this?Ya can hook up the linkage to shift
> gears, too.
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
Bob, ya see this every year when you visit, remember the G-vans? They have the
RE flipped backwards and the motor pointing towards the rear bumper and it
drives thru a V-drive type setup. Huge battery pack room and weight centered
between the wheels. I didn't reply earlier as I originally thought Lawrence
was talking about doing this with a motorcycle. TTYS, David Chapman.
-------------------------------------------------
FastQ Communications
Providing Innovative Internet Solutions Since 1993
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey John
I'm so pleased that you got to pull it off last night and you even got a
quick post out to. I'm also way pumped you thought of me and got an extra
poster, wait, no you didn't 8^ (
I guess you did just give me an inside call about last night, nice to know
you think of me once all the fun stuffs played out, LMAO! I can't wait till it
hits Bend on August 11th, though I doubt Chris will be there handing out signed
posters though...
Hey I'm not going to ruin the plot for EVeryone and I can't wait to read the
full post.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello to All,
A quick note....a few photos from last night's fun with Chris Paine are
up under the 'Photos' section at the Plasma Boy web page. Look for a
detailed post later tonight. My best line of the night, after Chris had
told me he'd ridden in tZero...."OK, so you you've ridden in a slow EV,
now it's time to ride in a fast one!"
See Ya.....John Wayland
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oops I forgot to mention this is a motorcycle idea. LR........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Austin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: Aero shaft drive idea.
> On Wed, Jul 12, 2006 at 06:43:35PM -0700, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > I just had an idea I'd like to run by the list. A shaft drive takes up
room
> > typically where the batteries normally go. A loss of battery storage.
Why
> > not flip the shaft sending it out the back behind the rear wheel. Make
a
> > trailing cone to house it and the supporting structure. You would get
aero
> > advantage and more batteries where you need them. Lawrence Rhodes
>
> It does seem like a good idea.
>
> I think that Solectria might have done something similar with there S-10
> conversions. I believe they even patented the idea.
>
> Thanks!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The system is called the "GAIA I" (Green AirLab Intelligent Array I).
Not that I am an expert on ecclesiastical matters, but I thought GAIA was
the name of the PLI / LiPo batteries from Germany that Andy Frank at Davis
is putting in plug-in hybrid conversions. Seems like a potential source of
confusion.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Fisher wrote:
> Thanks you for your help. The bulb was in fact blown. In fact,
> I blew another one before things were working properly.
As have I! It's easy to accidentally hook one up backwards. I now use
red and black heatshrink on the + and - ends.
> http://www.x-plane.org/home/mf70/_data/Prototype-shunts.JPG
It looks like you have all the terminals shorted together!
> My hope is that I can put the shunts in a line so they can be easily
> monitored.
Well, yes. But that also concentrates all the heat in one place.
You could put the zeners on the battery terminals for heatsinking, and
run wires to the lamps in a central location.
> The lines to the batteries are also fused.
The lamp makes a pretty good fuse by itself. But if you run long wires
in a bundle where there is any chance of them shorting, then use fuses
at the battery end.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On my honda shadow EV in progress that would buy room for one yellow top. If
you added that structure to make it to the frame out back instead of to the
swingarm it seems workable but to me it seems it would be easier to move one
yellow top back there. The weight of each are nearly identical.
Though I can't speak to the handling change that would make having 50+ lbs
behind the rear wheel. If it wouln't leaving the motor alone but still using
hte structure behind could get you more than one battery in back rather than in
the saddle bag position.
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Oops I forgot to mention this is a motorcycle idea. LR........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Austin"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: Aero shaft drive idea.
> On Wed, Jul 12, 2006 at 06:43:35PM -0700, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > I just had an idea I'd like to run by the list. A shaft drive takes up
room
> > typically where the batteries normally go. A loss of battery storage.
Why
> > not flip the shaft sending it out the back behind the rear wheel. Make
a
> > trailing cone to house it and the supporting structure. You would get
aero
> > advantage and more batteries where you need them. Lawrence Rhodes
>
> It does seem like a good idea.
>
> I think that Solectria might have done something similar with there S-10
> conversions. I believe they even patented the idea.
>
> Thanks!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Humm... I didn't realize the coincidence. Thank you for the info. We might
have to do something about it. GAIA actually means mother earth. And, the
GAIA hypothesis proposes that the planet earth is a single living organism.
On 7/13/06, Jonathan Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The system is called the "GAIA I" (Green AirLab Intelligent Array I).
>
Not that I am an expert on ecclesiastical matters, but I thought GAIA was
the name of the PLI / LiPo batteries from Germany that Andy Frank at Davis
is putting in plug-in hybrid conversions. Seems like a potential source of
confusion.
--
Edward Ang
AirLab
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gaia also makes power supplies,
http://www.gaia-converter.ca/
I've used a few in my BLDC controls and they
work great. It works from 30Vdc up to 160Vdc input
with an output of 12Vdc. Nice converter.
Rod
--- Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Humm... I didn't realize the coincidence. Thank you
> for the info. We might
> have to do something about it. GAIA actually means
> mother earth. And, the
> GAIA hypothesis proposes that the planet earth is a
> single living organism.
>
> On 7/13/06, Jonathan Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > The system is called the "GAIA I" (Green AirLab
> Intelligent Array I).
> > >
> >
> > Not that I am an expert on ecclesiastical matters,
> but I thought GAIA was
> > the name of the PLI / LiPo batteries from Germany
> that Andy Frank at Davis
> > is putting in plug-in hybrid conversions. Seems
> like a potential source of
> > confusion.
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Edward Ang
> AirLab
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
G'day all
Latest wierd requirement I've been asked for is a battery that bears all
the hallmarks of an EV drag-racing battery.
Deliver 520A (ish) whilst staying above 9.5V for 20 to 30 seconds, and last
a few hundred cycles if they're lucky. Charging in 24V blocks, probably at
around 4 to 8 amps. 44 to 50 in series (depending on the terminal voltage
under load) and 4 sets, each string delivering up to 240kW, but only a
total of 2kWh and 4Ah or so. Yes, when they replace them I'll be wanting
the pick of the survivors.
What reccommendations?
Thanks
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
DC systems could benefit from knowing this info as well. Many DC systems
work an open loop fashion, that is the throttle input just controls the
effective voltage applied to the motor. More throttle more voltage. This
does not lead to a very smooth control of the motor, but it is good enough
for most. However, it is possible to develop a DC system where the thottle
controls torque or perhaps power output. That is a closed loop control
could be developed. Having motor parameters allows the system to be tuned
for optimal performance.
Regards,
Chris Brune
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> BTW, DC systems perhaps could benefit from this concept,
> but I'm not aware of any implementing a motor model.
> Thus usually any motor goes and a temp sensor(s) is all the
> feed back. Watching not to burn the motor while utilizing
> maximum it can give is user's problem then.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
Since you have a string of 25 batteries, you can easily limit
the Dolphin to 275V to keep the voltage at 15V per battery,
there is no benefit in putting more than 15V on an AGM, and
the 16+ volts you are using will only speed up the corrosion.
Keeping the battery charging below 14V is exactly what I do
and I think that Lee also confirmed that he charges his pack
with a very mild voltage every time and occasionally (once
or twice a month) bring them up to a voltage close to 15V at
a low current, so they can equalize without venting.
The low voltage during most recharges prevents early
dying AGMs from grid corrosion.
Equalizing all the cells in every battery by a controlled and
low-current over-charge to 15V is required once in a while to
keep them all in the same playing field.
Continue this and you will get healthy OLD batteries.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 10:01 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Trying to understand shunt regs
Actually, an interesting thing I am noticing about the Lee regs:
When I charge the car with the Magnecharger and watch the pack with the
E-meter, the regs do interesting stuff to the voltage charge points. For
example: My wife took the Prizm (300v, 52ah pack with 2 strings 26ah
batteries, 30ah max reasonable discharge, 3 years old now) out on a run
last night. 20 miles, 19ah down.
When plugged into the MC, the batteries sat at around 315-319 volts at a
11a charge rate (constant current) to about 4ah remaining. Then when I
checked in later, the charger had hit the 340 volt setpoint and was
charging at 2a rate with 2ah to go. However the voltage was down to 330
volts.
This morning, the pack was charged. E-meter read +.6ah up (98% CEF I
think, I'll double check) but I don't think the voltage ever goes above
350 volts actual.
Reason why is this: The MC does temp compensation and I put the temp
probes on the battery interconnects. When the regs start going, you can
tell because the lugs warm up which warms the interconnects and gives
false high readings to the temp sensors. I've programmed the MC to
throttle back voltage when it sees this and hit it's setpoints early.
What I see is that the MC charges away at full blast for about 80% of
the charge time. When the pack hits around 2ah down from full, the regs
come on all over the place (they have hit 13.8 average) and the MC
throttles down. It then charges away at 2a rate for the last 2-3ah,
which is a bit over the reg capacity (2*500ma=1a rate they can reg) but
below what should vent a hawker.
So far the pack has been using the regs since march or so and has not
blown up. I still have the 20 mile range without dropping the batteries
below 275 (11vpb) under load. This isn't bad. And when the pack is cold,
I can plug it in with the dolphin and have the pack rip up to 389 volts
at a 2a charge rate within an hour, so the batteries probably really are
full.
I guess my question is do these numbers seem sane based on other
people's reg experiences? I'm planning on dropping the pack in October
to see how it looks, but can you really charge batteries like this while
only going to 14 volts per battery on average?
Chris
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--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Since you have a string of 25 batteries, you can easily limit
> the Dolphin to 275V to keep the voltage at 15V per battery,
^^^^
375V
> there is no benefit in putting more than 15V on an AGM, and
You might want to argue this point with the folks at Optima ;^>
While you may not want to hold the batteries at 15V for any length of
time, it is definitely proposed that there are definite benefits
associated with *allowing* an Optima to exceed 15V during the constant
current finish.
That said, AGMs tend to be more finicky in their particular charge
requirements than floodeds (i.e. while you can charge most floodeds more
or less the same and get away with it, AGM manufacturers tend to have
more diverse and specific charging recommendations for their particular
product that differ from or even conflict with other manufacturer's
recommnedations), so when in doubt follow *your battery* manufacturer's
recommendations.
Cheers,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
There will be a "Who Killed the Electric Car" radio blurb tomorrow
(Friday) morning on CBC Radio One at 8:36am Central.
http://www.cbc.ca/listen/index.html# for streaming audio.
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
what is " energy Farming " ?
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Potentially large acreages of energy farming could be much cheaper
than
> solar cells.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
I had written:
>...a few photos from last night's fun with Chris Paine are up at the
Plasma Boy web page. Look for a detailed post later tonight....
Then this from Jim Husted:
>
>I'm so pleased that you got to pull it off last night...I'm not going
to ruin the plot for EVeryone and I can't wait to read the full post.
>
OK, here's 'the rest of the story'......As is typical, this all started
bad, very bad. In Portland, Oregon, once we get past July 4th or so, you
can count on Summer weather, we're talking little to no rain and 85-95
degree temps the norm through August. So, anyone wanna guess where I'm
going with this? Yup, that damn anti-EV vortex is still after me! I'm
not kidding. After 20+ days of sun and warm weather, and with Chris and
his crew arriving in town for the big film debut (and a scheduled Zombie
ride), a weird July cold front was forecast for mid-week, most likely
Wednesday. Geesh! In fact, you just couldn't get a more deliberate
conspiracy from the weather man, with his 7 day forecast showing 85-90
degrees Monday and Tuesday, then plummeting temps and rain 'only' on
Wednesday, then Thursday and Friday rebounding into the 80s with
Saturday and Sunday heading into the 90s again. It seems at every
possibility for an EVent this year, weird weather has done it's best to
kill it!
Yesterday morning as I awoke early to start my forklift wrenching day,
the smell of fresh wet air wafted through the bedroom window. Right on
queue, on the exact day that of the movie debut, the rare for July cold
front has rolled in off the Pacific and it's raining! All day long, it
rained. I'm in the back of my service truck doing this and that, and all
I can hear is the sound of rain beating down on the aluminum
roof...damn! To make matters worse, my planned 'easy' day (so I could
get off work early at 3:00) is anything but easy and is rapidly going
south on me, with one customer freaking out because five, count 'em,
five lift trucks are down all at the same time and I've got to get them
back on line before I can go home. I call for backup to get an extra
tech to help out, but it seems all the techs were slammed on this
day...nice! I'm building here, so bear with me......
By noon, it's still raining, and as I get something repaired and back in
service, operators keep stopping by on forklifts carrying more dead
pallet jacks over to me. By two, it's raining even harder and the skies
are getting darker. By three, it's still raining. Work continued to get
more insane and each time I got caught up, another repair would show up.
The grand total of dead lift trucks came to eight. At near 4:00 however,
the rain stopped, the clouds began to go away, and patches of blue
showed up as the roads began to dry. Man, was I going to get a break?
I arrived at my house and hour and a half later than planned at 4:30. My
wife's work day had also went crazy and though she had planned to meet
me at the house at around 3:30, she didn't get home until after 4:00.
The plan was, that she and I would take Blue Meanie, and Tim would drive
White Zombie. The rain thing had just tweaked with me all day, work had
gone to hell in a hand basket, and I had cars waiting at home to prep
for a show that I really needed a couple of hours for. Now it was
getting late and there was little time left to get the cars spiffed up.
I had also wanted to take both out for a 4-5 mile 'wake-up run' with
subsequent recharges to get their juices flowing. Blue Meanie in
particular, with its 6+ year old Optimas, would never make a 12 mile
round trip to the show and back unless I exercised the old pack before
hand. Yeah, things had certainly not gone as I had hoped for. I was
tired and dirty with a combination of sweat and hydraulic fluid, I
stunk...I was stressed out over everything. Nothing like a shower
though, to wash away problems, and by 5-ish I emerged a refreshed Plasma
Boy. Tim too, had one of those days but in perfect timing fashion, he
was at my door as I was ready to go out it.
We had wanted to be at the theater by 5:30 or so to get both of my EVs
in the lineup near the theater entrance with other EVs from the OEVA
group, and, we wanted meet up with Chris before show time. Instead, we
hadn't left my house, it was already after 5:00, and nothing had been
done yet. My wife isn't a real happy camper when things go this way. All
three of us were hungry, too. I'm still building here......
Blue Meanie gets put on charge to top its pack off...White Zombie, too.
At full charge (445V), Zombie's charger is shut down and the pack rests
at 404V right after. The Chris Brune DC-DC is put on line as the 12V
system jumps to 14.4V and the packs settles in at 391 volts.
Time for Tim to take the car out for a spin. He goes up the shop
driveway and is almost to the road, when the car suddenly looses power
and coasts to a stop. WHAT???? Nooo-oooh, not now! A second press-down
on the throttle allows the car to make it onto the street, then it dies
again. This is definitely bad timing! What’s up with this? We got the
car back into the shop, hooked up the Mac, and pulled all these Zilla
codes: 1124 (Main contactor stuck on), 1141 (main contactor high
resistance), 1221 (Major Overspeed Either Motor Beyond red line by X),
1224 (SLI Battery too low and caused shutdown of controller), 1231
(Propulsion pack open, no contactor drop, and controller is not
responding). Geez, what the heck?
So now, it’s 5:30, we’re sill in the driveway working on a broken car
that’s expected to be at the show as one of the attractions, Blue Meanie
‘really’ needs to be taken out for pack warm-up (or we’ll never make the
round trip), and we’re starving. Cheryl comes out with ice cream treats
and though she knows things aren’t going well, she says nothing as she
hands them to us. This is ‘not’ what I needed after the day I’d had! Tim
and I tried to figure out the codes. I hadn’t cleared them since I had
raced a few weekends ago, so the older 1224 code made sense...that was
when I was driving home pre DC-DC and the 12V battery had lost its will
(7-6-06 Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night!). So did the 1141,
because the contactor had dropped out due to the low 12V problem on that
night. The 1231 code happens often, as both Tim and I occasionally
forget to insert the interior emergency disconnect handle before
atempting to boot up the Zilla. That left us with the freshly imprinted
codes 1124 and 1221.
Tim was all over it, and within a few minutes, had discovered the rpm
sensor’s input lead to the Hairball had come loose...no input from that
sensor while flag ‘a’ is on, and you’ll get that 1221 code! The 1124
then made sense, because when the car died due to the tach drive thing,
the contactor did not drop out, thus the Zilla said the contactor was
‘stuck on’ because it was still on when the controller had shut itself
down.
After reinserting the sensor’s wire at the Hairball and cinching it up
with a small screw driver, all was well and the Zombie was ready to
roll. Time now, nearly 5:45 pm. Tim takes the car out for the drive,
while I take Blue Meanie for a short 1/2 mile cruise through the
neighborhood, then return and put it back on charge. That would be all
the time I had to freshen up the Meanie’s pack. Tim got back, the car
was charged up again, and after quick wipe-downs and vacuum jobs, we
were finally ready to leave for the show...it’s now 6:10 pm.
We drove conservatively to the theater, about 6 miles from the Wayland
home. Blue Meanie’s tired old 156V pack of Optimas hung in there fairly
well, but make no mistake, the days of seeing 165 volts while cruising
at 40 mph are gone, replaced these days with 149-152 volts and lots of
sag under any type of acceleration. At the theater, as I had assumed,
there were no charging outlets to help the Meanie’s pack out. White
Zombie’s pack laughed at the drive and still registered 185 volts on the
Emeter!
The presentation of EVs was great. Going from memory, there was Gary
Graunke’s silver AC powered Insight, Ralph Merwin’s super clean teal Geo
Prism EV, a white electric Chevy S10 pickup, Myles Twete’s show stopper
dark navy 1921 Milburn EV, Blue Meanie and White Zombie, and a couple
other EVs I can’t clearly recall (sorry to those I’ve forgotten). There
were lots of people gathering to see the electric cars, lots of video
cameras, lots of digital cameras, lots of excitement! As I’m doing my
typical show and tell of Blue Meanie (as always, the remote controlled
motorized rear battery tray was a big hit), Tim is working a group of
folks curious about White Zombie. I had talked with quite few people,
but there was this one guy who was very intrigued with the under-hood
area of Blue Meanie, and so we chatted for perhaps 10 minutes before he
said to me, “Oh, by the way, I’m Chris” (as he gives me a firm hand
shake). I was pretty embarrassed that I had not recognized him. We
migrated over to White Zombie, where his face erupted into a very big EV
grin as he took in its ‘racing attitude’. I told him Rod Wilde had asked
me to present him with a pair of rubber shorts to prepare him for his
Zombie ride, but Chris' wit was readily apparent when he instantly
quipped back, "Oh that's OK, I've already got them on...wear them all
the time." I knew I'd like this guy! We decided to wait until after the
show for his ride experience.
At a little before 7:00 the line formed to go into the theater, so show
and tell was over and the real show was about to begin.
To be continued...
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A biological farm to produce fuel. Biodiesel, ethanol, methane gas,
potato clocks, etc.
Danny
jmygann wrote:
what is " energy Farming " ?
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Potentially large acreages of energy farming could be much cheaper
than
solar cells.
--- End Message ---
