EV Digest 6675
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) article: French posties go electric
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: how businesses work
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: ACIM power (was:"largish" brushless motors available) - long reply
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: fuse size
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Transmission Choice
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Killacycle in DesignFax online
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: DC Systems 1200 Overheating
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Excellent GM Volt video
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: ACIM power (was:"largish" brushless motors available) - long reply
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: adding new battery to old(er) pack
by "Deanne Mott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) Re: adding new battery to old(er) pack
by "Deanne Mott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Earth Day
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Re: Earth Day
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Printing cars (was: how businesses work)
by Eric Olson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: ACIM power (was:"largish" brushless motors available) - long reply
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The French post office has put out tenders for the most EVs ever ordered:
http://www.channel4.com/4car/news/news-story.jsp?news_id=16048
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
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--- Begin Message ---
Anyone who would like to get a primer on OSS should go out and find
the paper "The Cathedral and The Bazaar" By Eric S. Raymond. Just
google "Cathedral Bazaar" and you'll find it.
The reason The Bazaar works with software specifically is because most
of the work and testing does not involve material costs, just man
power costs, which are generally donated through enthusiasts, and
through folks who needed to 'scratch a particular itch'. The devo is
done on commodity machines that are around for other purposes and have
been paid for either personally, or are deprecated equipment bought at
discount. Once something gets good enough you get vendors selling
packaged software in return for maintenance, like RedHat and etc.
Once you have to bring in real material costs, it gets very tricky.
You simply cannot have a good bazaar unless you have complete free
flow of work and costs throughout, and that would be really hard with
something like an EV.
The -design- element could be set up this way, of course. I would say
that EE components and ideas could easily be Open Sourced and
developed through a bazaar, and individuals would then test them out
on conversion EVs, made from commodity items. Since the cost is in the
battery, it is easy enough for test purposes to use small packs and
extrapolate range and performance from short test runs. So, this sort
of thing is possible for an EV, I believe.
I do think, though, that it would be much more effective if only
elements were designed this way, such as a CAN capable BLDC
motor/controller made from commodity parts, a programmable BMS, or a
programmable charger. All separate projects related to the overall
design which should be vehicle agnostic in general, and perhaps have a
sub branch that is vehicle type specific.
It would also help if a racing team developed that used the concepts
from the project, to give juice to the general Bazaar, and to create
overall credibility.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wonder if anyone ever melted a rotor on a Solectria or GM EV1. I think those
had aluminum rotors.
Jeff
Kaido Kert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 4/17/07, Lee Hart wrote:
> Jeff Major wrote:
> > Not that rotor temperature is not important, but these cast rotors have no
> > insulation. Melting point of aluminum is 660 deg C. The stator limit should
> > be in the 150 to180 d C range. Keep your stator within limit and the rotor
> > will probably be all right.
>
> You run into problems with the rotor windings at very high torques
> and/or very low speeds. If you're generating full torque at stall, for
> example, the stator windings stay pretty cool buy you can *melt* the
> rotor windings!
Thats what i was thinking as well. Continuous low-speed operation
tends to cause issues with inverter-driven conveyor motors for
example, even at no loads. The case was much worse with older variable
V/hz inverters, with vector control things seem to be somewhat better.
In EV app you will never know the exact operating conditions
beforehand, you could be stuck at low speed uphill crawl for a long
time, so extra monitoring for all possible operating parameters is a
wise thing to do, plus it doesnt usually cost anything in hardware (
microcontrollers and storage is dirt cheap compared to a blown motor )
-kert
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
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--- Begin Message ---
How do you know if a motor has NEMA-A rotor or NEMA-B rotor? Also I
noticed there are C & D as well, which would be more suited for an EV?
On 4/18/07, Dale Ulan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Now how do we pump up that same motor to say, 200hp? Increase the hz?
What's the absolute upper limits?
At a constant motor speed, If you maintain a constant voltage
and increase the frequency of the VFD, torque goes up until
you reach the breakdown torque point. All this time, the motor
current is rising, and the current flowing in the rotor (and
the frequency of the current flowing in the rotor) is increasing.
At the breakdown torque point, torque will start to fall, even
as you increase the frequency. At about 80% of maximum torque,
the motor efficiency is acceptable. Above this, losses reduce
efficiency a lot. If you maintain the same voltage, you can
approximately double (with a NEMA-B rotor), or approximately
triple (with a NEMA-A rotor) the torque produced. Roughly,
if you double the torque (by raising the frequency a few Hz
to get you on the maximum torque point without a high efficiency
penalty), you'll take double the current (at a fixed voltage).
To get the torque higher, we may raise the voltage of the motor.
Note that the current will not rise appreciably at zero slip.
If we, say, double the voltage on the motor, the torque vs.
slip curve roughly doubles - ie you get twice the torque. But
to achieve this, the current will double. And if you already
increased the torque output by raising the slip frequency to
its limit, you'll take double that current, but be making four
times the rated torque of the motor. At this point, the windings
are getting pretty warm, but for a short period of time, it
might be ok. This is what I think is the limiting thing that
will affect how much power you can squeeze out, and it'll be
motor specific. At some point you saturate the magnetics of
the stator (or the rotor) and then you get little more torque.
Also, if you raise the current level in the rotor too much,
you can melt the 'winding'. Remember that there will be
hundreds or thousands of amperes flowing through that rotor.
The rotor 'winding' is usually made by casting aluminum into
slots in the rotor laminations, and that is a rather substantial
piece of aluminum conductor.
To get more power again, we can take our 1800 RPM motor and run
it at 6000 RPM. It won't fly apart if it's balanced. We just
raised our power three times. Except we need three times the
voltage as we did before. Now, that's a limiting factor.
If we started with a 230V AC motor, but now we're asking for
six times that voltage... the motor's windings won't hold
that in. So we need to reconfigure the motor's winding to
maybe 60 or 70V so we can maintain a battery voltage less than
400V. More winding sections in parallel, and fewer turns of
bigger wire. When you run out of voltage, you need to accept
that the torque will drop as RPM's go up, but the power will
remain roughly the same. That's how Solectria (and Alan Cocconi)
manage to use a fixed gearbox. They set up the motor to have
constant torque below some speed, and above that, the torque
drops but the power remains constant. If you pick that speed
to be, say, 30mph, the torque to the wheels will drop just
as it does when you upshift a standard transmission. This happens
because you run out of volts. Note that a series-wound DC
motor does the same thing when in a current-limiting PWM
controller, except that spinning up to 13,000 RPM isn't
really a great thing to do to brushes...
So, it's relatively easy (and possible) to get ten times the
output power of an ACIM. It's been done - the Valentine book
on VFD's had them using a 256 frame 20hp motor at the
100kW+ level. They were limited by 400A IGBT's.
Now, what's the catch (besides getting
enough voltage and/or current to the motor)? If you saturate
the magnetics of the motor, it becomes much less efficient,
and it's a case where you double the current but get maybe
10% more torque because most of the new magnetic field just
gets lost because the steel won't carry it. That's motor
specific, and the step where that is going to be limited
will be where you raise the voltage applied to the motor to
make the torque vs. slip curve steeper.
But it's not a case of just increasing Hz or increasing
voltage or increasing current. You have to do each in a
carefully coordinated manner.
-Dale
--
www.electric-lemon.com
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--- Begin Message ---
If Bruce or anyone else needs fuses for their EV, James Massey sent me
some from Australia to sell for him. Most are DC rated. Here's a list:
The following are Australian and British cylindrical fuses (G&G, MEM,
English Electric, etc.) Dimensions are the body diameter, but all have
flat blades on each end with screw holes -- they are normally mounted to
a screw terminal block, so no special fuseholder is needed. These are
old spares; unused, but dusty and knocked around a bit:
$1 2a 250vdc 7/8" dia. x 2"
$1 4a 250vdc 7/8" dia. x 2"
$1 10a 250vac 9/16" dia. x 1-1/4"
$2 10a 250vdc 9/16" dia. x 1-1/4"
$2 15a 440vac 9/16" dia. x 1-1/4"
$3 15a 600vac 5/16" dia. x 2-1/8"
$4 16a 250vdc 9/16" dia. x 1-1/4"
$5 25a 250vdc 7/8" dia. x 2"
$5 32a 250vdc 7/8" dia. x 2"
$5 40a 250vdc 1" dia. x 2-1/8"
$6 60a 230vdc 1" dia. x 2-1/8"
$6 63a 250vdc 1" dia. x 2-1/8"
$7 63a 460vdc 1" dia. x 2-1/8"
$7 80a 460vdc 1-1/4" dia. x 2-1/2"
$8 100a 350vdc 1-1/4" dia. x 2-1/2"
$9 160a 350vdc 1-1/4" dia. x 2-1/2"
$10 200a 250vdc 1-1/2" dia. x 2-3/4"
$15 315a 460vdc 2" dia. x 2-3/4"
$20 400a 400vdc 2-3/8" dia. x 3"
The following are standard Bussman fast-blow semiconductor fuses, new
and still in the box, so you can easily find complete specs. They are
all cylindrical fuses, with flat blades on each end with holes for screw
mounting.
$2 5a 600vac 9/16" dia x 1-7/8", Bussman KAC 5
$20 250a 250vdc 1" dia x 7/8", Bussman FWX 250
$25 300a 150vdc 1" dia. x 7/8", Bussman FWA 300
Prices do not include shipping, but most weigh only a few ounces.
Let me know OFF LIST if you're interested. They'll go on a first-come
first serve basis.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Pestka, Dennis J wrote:
I'm considering using a different transmission in my 1965 Datsun
pickup conversion. My fear is getting parts for the stock 65 if
I tear up anything. The ICE is only rated at 60 HP, and I don't
really know how bulletproof the transmission is.
I converted a 1974 Datsun pickup, with the stock transmission and
hydraulic clutch. I used an aircraft starter/generator and contactor
controller, so some of the starts were pretty brutal (it would easily
spin the tires). In the two years I drove it, I never had any problems
with the clutch or transmission.
I'm looking at a 9" Advanced with 1200A Raptor controller.
These parts are going to be capable of producing some *serious* torque.
Especially given the age of the transmission, I think I would worry
about breaking it, too. Is this a daily driver EV, or a go-fast racing EV?
For a daily driver, I'd turn down the current limit on the controller to
limit torque, and leave the stock transmission and clutch.
For racing, or to use the full output current of the controller, I think
you'll have to replace the transmission (and perhaps the rear axle) with
something significantly stronger.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Wow! thanks for pointing this one out. This is an uber-awesome
article. It is a rare thing when they actually get all the facts right. :-)
The story about the latest KillaCycle record has been bouncing all
over the web. I have seen articles written in all sorts of webzines,
blogs, and newsletters in many different languages including Chinese,
Russian, French, Italian, German, Spanish, Japanese, and a few
languages I have not been able to decipher.
It is good that we finally managed to get a decent team picture!
Bill Dube'
At 08:30 AM 4/18/2007, you wrote:
Yet another Killacycle article in the technical press.
http://www.manufacturingcenter.com/dfx/news/stories/feature-5.asp
Lynn
See my 100% Factory Built S10E at:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/722
This message and any enclosures are intended only for the addressee. Please
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Kaido Kert wrote:
If they expect a 100K mile battery before any performance loss is
noticed, then isn't that a deal killer in and of itself?
Never mind that *all* of GM's other cars have lead-acid batteries that
need to be replaced every few years. Isn't that a deal killer?
Of course not! If the price of the replacement is low enough, who cares
if it will need a few replacment sets of batteries over the vehicle's life.
If GM were smarter, they'd *lease* the battery pack. They'd include
servicing for it each time the car comes in for its 3000-mile regular
maintenance (oil changes, etc.). Put in a good battery management system
that tells the mechanic how each battery is doing, and whether it needs
replacement or not.
This should make everyone happy. GM can use dirt-cheap lead-acid
batteries that only last 10,000 miles, and so offer a low-ball price to
sell the car. The dealers are guaranteed work, servicing the batteries
(adding water and replacing one now and then is far easier than changing
oil or spark plugs). Customers are happy, because the lease lets them
avoid worries about "what if the battery dies?".
I don't know of any battery that can do 2500 charges without serious
performance loss, more like 1000 charges.
Nicad and nimh batteries have both amply demonstrated that they can do
this. They have now been in the field for decades, in large numbers of
applications. A few vehicles with lithiums have even done so, though
with unobtainable cost-is-no-object batteries.
--
The perfect is the enemy of the good
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
The Raptor 1200s should live in 90 Deg weather and still make many hundreds
of amps.
I have never seen my 1200 make less than 500 amps Smokin' hot Even on the
return road from drag racing...
If you can't make 75 amps, and it won't burn the skin off you hands touching
it.. then it has a serious thermal sensing Failure.
Peter Senkowsky now handles Raptor issues.
I am not certain what is buisness line is.. So I am not publishing his Cell
phone number.
>From what I have heard the Temp sensors fail from time to time. This is a
cheap fix..If you know what you are looking for.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:20 PM
Subject: DC Systems 1200 Overheating
>
> Hello everybody:
>
> Come summer, I always have the problem with an overheating DCP-1200
> controller. I asked for some advise before, but haven't found any solution
> yet. Here's my problem:
>
> With outside temps. >= 80 degrees, I can't pull more then about 150
> battery amps through the controller for any time >= 10 minutes without the
> red control LED coming on. The fan works just fine, I even installed a
> auxiliary blower so that the controller gets fresh air from below the car,
> but it doesn't make a difference. The other day the red led came on but,
> since I had to make it home, I reduced amps to about 75 A and limped home,
> I let the truck sit in the driveway with power on, fans blowing, but even
> after 1/2 hour, the overheat light was solid red.
>
> I took the controller out of the truck today - thinking that maybe a wasp
> had built a home-site in it, but nothing. Some dust, but nothing serious.
>
> So - what else might be the problem? Any suggestions are welcome.
>
> Michaela
>
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And the price of one of those battery packs was...
My guess is that no one really knows, but if it is somewhere in the $20K -
$30K range just for the battery pack then there goes your selling like
hotcakes theory. Let's see, I can buy the gas version of this car for $20K
or I can pay two to three times that for the Electric version.
Huh? The MSRP for a RAV4 EV was $42,000 and they ALL sold (when they
were offered). Every last one of them, either to fleets or
individuals. As far as the battery pack cost, yes it does cost $26k
-today- for a new one. That's because the patent rights were bought by
Chevron, mate. If they had mass produced NiMH the cost would have come
down to something like 2x lead acid for the same AH. Let alone the
fact that people were toying with the idea of selling the vehicle and
leasing the battery packs for the short term, while costs were still
high. Instead Chevron got a $30 million settlement from
Toyota/Panasonic etc, and DISMANTLED the 95AH NiMH battery production
line.
Oh and lets check back in on those fleet RAV4s that sacramento is
using.. for 400k miles they have been using them and no significant
loss in performance in the battery pack. That's an average of 100
miles per day, for 10 years. the RAV4 standard got about 25mpg
average, so thats 16,000 gallons of fuel it would have eaten. AT 2.50
a gallon that's $40,000 in fuel costs. Since the RAV4 EV uses the
equivalent of $0.60 per gallon of energy (a rough number, but
conservatively high) the avoided cost is $30,400 JUST for the cost of
the gasoline. Factor in all the oil changes, belt replacements, tune
ups, etc etc and it goes way up, at the very least $500 per year for
regular maintenance and another $10,000 for parts replacement. The
RAV4 EV doesn't incur these costs to any significant degree, and so we
can almost take that whole amount as an additional avoided cost. Also
you used to get a $4000 tax credit for it.
So lets see....
TCO RAV 4 standard, 400k miles: $21,000 MSRP, $40,000 Fuel cost,
$15,000 ongoing = $76,000
TCO RAV4 EV, 400k miles: $42,000 MSRP, - $4000 Tax credit, $9600
energy cost, $3000 Maintenance (for suspension, tires, brake issues) =
$50,600
Hmm. And if battery production had been allowed to continue, and cost
scaled down with production, we would have seen packs going for 1/4 of
the stated price, even with Nickel prices, or about $7000 US. Which
still puts us ahead of the Standard.
Oh.. did I mention none of that $40k that the RAV4 standard is sending
to the Middle East is involved with the EV? Also 95% less CO2 sent up
into the air, which by the way, at current estimates, does about $35
of damage per ton (per Swiss Rye). We wont even get into that, though.
If we did, the numbers would be horrendous and people wouldn't even
want to believe you.
The problem still is the batteries. We now have technology that is getting
better at storing energy, although still no where near what gasoline does,
but the economics of the batteries is tough. Think about it, the battery
pack is a direct replacement for the gas tank. How much do you think most
gas tanks cost to manufacture?
The problem is NOT the frickin' battery technology, mate. The problem
is economics and the market being in the control of the big five. See
above, and realize that with volume Lithium is going to become cost
competitive real soon, in spite of the big oil and big auto industry.
We now have 300+ mile technology. We'll soon have 500+ mile
technology. And with volume the price will come down, end of story.
And it won't take long. Probably something like 5 years or less.
Even when EV's can meet the specs of their gas powered counterparts they are
going to be a tough sell because the batteries guarantee an initial higher
cost. The forward thinking consumer may see enough benefit to overlook this
cost but the status quo is likely to be around for a lot longer than anyone
on this list would like.
All you have to do is show the numbers mate. Thats all. People -will-
buy a more expensive product if it is more durable. Plus since you
KNOW it is more durable, how many people will absolutely flock to a
car that has a 300,000 mile, 15 year warranty? On almost EVERYTHING
including the pack? I'd think one or two.
In the meantime, keep those backyard conversions rolling out because it is
likely to be the only accessible EV source for some time to come.
I honestly have no idea where that pessimism is coming from mate. But
I'll leave it to you to look at the numbers.
--T
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--- Begin Message ---
> Randii, I'm not spreading anything but what actually happened.
I disagree, Tim. IMHO, you are spinning the facts pretty hard. To keep
this on-subject, we may have to agree to disagree.
FWIW, I respect that you are voting with your wallet -- that's the
biggest honest impact a consumer can truly make.
Lobbying beyond that... well, I disagree.
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Better than that Lee, what happens when that firefly battery for 4xs
energy density of traditional lead for the same weight comes into
production? It promises to cost something like the current Lead Acid
batteries per AH and so would give you 200+ miles in a home conversion
as currently done, probably 300+ miles on a well done one. and all for
1/5 the cost of present day lithium.
I'd call THAT interesting, and Caterpillar is definitely not shying
away from this one. They are developing it full steam ahead for the
electric lawn care industry and they talk about the hybrid car
industry. I'm sure someone there realizes we'll buy them like hotcakes
when they come out to the general public. And luckily for us,
Caterpillar could care less what the majors do.. their markets are
totally different. I wouldn't be surprised if they are doing R&D on
all electric drive for trucks.
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--- Begin Message ---
How do you know if a motor has NEMA-A rotor or NEMA-B rotor? Also I
noticed there are C & D as well, which would be more suited for an EV?
You would have to look at the nameplate data - the model number.
Alternatively, you could dyno test the motor and see how it
does and what you can get out of it.
NEMA-A would probably be better since you are going to be using
the motor with a VFD that can control the amount of slip.
NEMA-B is most common. I would avoid NEMA-C or -D. In an EV
application, sensored control - either vector control or
current/slip control is probably going to be used in all
probability. NEMA-C and -D motors are most useful for
fixed-frequency operation. For that matter, a -B motor is
a compromise, but it is the most common one around so for
that reason, it may be the one to use.
-Dale
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--- Begin Message ---
And the price of one of those battery packs was...
My guess is that no one really knows, but if it is somewhere in the $20K -
$30K range just for the battery pack then there goes your selling like
hotcakes theory. Let's see, I can buy the gas version of this car for $20K
or I can pay two to three times that for the Electric version.
BTW, RAV4EV has roughly 27KWH worth of NiMHs in it, $20K per pack
would mean $740/kwh, thats way out of proportion IMO. You have to try
hard to make the pack so expensive.
-kert
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--- Begin Message ---
Wow you make it so easy, so these greedy corporations aren't willing to
change there business models to make even more money because according to
your numbers these things should be extremely easy to sale and bring them in
loads of cash. It can only be explained like as a conspiracy I guess.
There are comercially available, mass produced nickel based batteries,
although not the same ones that are in the Rav 4 EV's. Based on what the
price of batteries made from similar chemistry go for in other industries
(airplane, UPS etc...), your $7000 for a battery pack are wildly optomistic.
I talked to my friend who is the service manager at the Honda dealership
that replaced John Waylands NIMH battery pack under warranty on his Honda
Insight. This battery is much smaller than a full size EV uses. I don't
recall the total price of the replacement including labor, but it seems that
it was either 4 or 6 thousand dollars. His remark was that it sure seemed
strange to do that expensive of a repair on a 6 year old car. Imagine
having to replace a full sized NIMH pack.
One thing you did seem to misunderstand is that I do think that there is
good enough battery technology here now, it's the economics of the batteries
that are tough.
And as far as Toyota selling the Rav4 EV's for $42K, do you really think
they broke even on those... not a chance. Could they have ever broken even
at that price eventually? I don't know, but I doubt it.
As far as people willing to spend more money up front on something that is
of higher quality, that's pretty debatable, but my observation is that most
don't.
As far as my pessimism about being able to buy a real EV... The auto
industry has been going strong for nearly a century. Millions of people buy
brand new gas powered vehicles every year. No one is manufacturing an
electric car now, they haven't done so in any quantity in the last several
generations, and there is no change to this in the forseeable future. So as
I said, keep rolling your own. As soon as you can walk into a dealership
and buy an electric car that is equivilant to the gas car sitting next to
it, you can say your optimism has paid off. Until then the pesimists are
correct...
damon
From: "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Excellent GM Volt video
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:47:18 -0400
And the price of one of those battery packs was...
My guess is that no one really knows, but if it is somewhere in the $20K -
$30K range just for the battery pack then there goes your selling like
hotcakes theory. Let's see, I can buy the gas version of this car for
$20K
or I can pay two to three times that for the Electric version.
Huh? The MSRP for a RAV4 EV was $42,000 and they ALL sold (when they
were offered). Every last one of them, either to fleets or
individuals. As far as the battery pack cost, yes it does cost $26k
-today- for a new one. That's because the patent rights were bought by
Chevron, mate. If they had mass produced NiMH the cost would have come
down to something like 2x lead acid for the same AH. Let alone the
fact that people were toying with the idea of selling the vehicle and
leasing the battery packs for the short term, while costs were still
high. Instead Chevron got a $30 million settlement from
Toyota/Panasonic etc, and DISMANTLED the 95AH NiMH battery production
line.
Oh and lets check back in on those fleet RAV4s that sacramento is
using.. for 400k miles they have been using them and no significant
loss in performance in the battery pack. That's an average of 100
miles per day, for 10 years. the RAV4 standard got about 25mpg
average, so thats 16,000 gallons of fuel it would have eaten. AT 2.50
a gallon that's $40,000 in fuel costs. Since the RAV4 EV uses the
equivalent of $0.60 per gallon of energy (a rough number, but
conservatively high) the avoided cost is $30,400 JUST for the cost of
the gasoline. Factor in all the oil changes, belt replacements, tune
ups, etc etc and it goes way up, at the very least $500 per year for
regular maintenance and another $10,000 for parts replacement. The
RAV4 EV doesn't incur these costs to any significant degree, and so we
can almost take that whole amount as an additional avoided cost. Also
you used to get a $4000 tax credit for it.
So lets see....
TCO RAV 4 standard, 400k miles: $21,000 MSRP, $40,000 Fuel cost,
$15,000 ongoing = $76,000
TCO RAV4 EV, 400k miles: $42,000 MSRP, - $4000 Tax credit, $9600
energy cost, $3000 Maintenance (for suspension, tires, brake issues) =
$50,600
Hmm. And if battery production had been allowed to continue, and cost
scaled down with production, we would have seen packs going for 1/4 of
the stated price, even with Nickel prices, or about $7000 US. Which
still puts us ahead of the Standard.
Oh.. did I mention none of that $40k that the RAV4 standard is sending
to the Middle East is involved with the EV? Also 95% less CO2 sent up
into the air, which by the way, at current estimates, does about $35
of damage per ton (per Swiss Rye). We wont even get into that, though.
If we did, the numbers would be horrendous and people wouldn't even
want to believe you.
The problem still is the batteries. We now have technology that is
getting
better at storing energy, although still no where near what gasoline does,
but the economics of the batteries is tough. Think about it, the battery
pack is a direct replacement for the gas tank. How much do you think most
gas tanks cost to manufacture?
The problem is NOT the frickin' battery technology, mate. The problem
is economics and the market being in the control of the big five. See
above, and realize that with volume Lithium is going to become cost
competitive real soon, in spite of the big oil and big auto industry.
We now have 300+ mile technology. We'll soon have 500+ mile
technology. And with volume the price will come down, end of story.
And it won't take long. Probably something like 5 years or less.
Even when EV's can meet the specs of their gas powered counterparts they
are
going to be a tough sell because the batteries guarantee an initial higher
cost. The forward thinking consumer may see enough benefit to overlook
this
cost but the status quo is likely to be around for a lot longer than
anyone
on this list would like.
All you have to do is show the numbers mate. Thats all. People -will-
buy a more expensive product if it is more durable. Plus since you
KNOW it is more durable, how many people will absolutely flock to a
car that has a 300,000 mile, 15 year warranty? On almost EVERYTHING
including the pack? I'd think one or two.
In the meantime, keep those backyard conversions rolling out because it is
likely to be the only accessible EV source for some time to come.
I honestly have no idea where that pessimism is coming from mate. But
I'll leave it to you to look at the numbers.
--T
_________________________________________________________________
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http://msnconcertcontest.com?icid-nceltontagline
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damon> Think about it, the battery pack is a direct replacement for the
damon> gas tank. How much do you think most gas tanks cost to
damon> manufacture?
That's apples and oranges. The battery pack is the direct replacement for
the gas tank, all the gas you have to put in it and a big chunk of the ICE
(the fuel system anyway).
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
"The hippies and the hipsters did some great stuff in the sixties,
but the geeks pulled their weight too." -- Billy Bragg
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Hiya,
do you know of any EV related stuff going on this weekend?
I know the denver nature museum is having some stuff, but it sounded like
it was mostly water conservation and solar energy.
Thanks :)
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Ack! ignore me... I accidently sent this to the list -_-;
> Hiya,
> do you know of any EV related stuff going on this weekend?
>
> I know the denver nature museum is having some stuff, but it sounded like
> it was mostly water conservation and solar energy.
>
> Thanks :)
>
>
>
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Timothy Balcer wrote:
> Once you have to bring in real material costs, it gets very tricky.
> You simply cannot have a good bazaar unless you have complete free
> flow of work and costs throughout, and that would be really hard with
> something like an EV.
Good points -- but this maybe not be hard for long. Although it's not
quite here yet, the cost of material production will eventually get very
close to free with open source projects like this: http://www.reprap.org
I can imagine a large version of this that could print the body and
(most) non-electrical parts for a Sunrise or FreedomEV.
An initial todo list for an EV:
- Make a much larger reprap machine
- Make a reprap nozzle that prints with a different material (and
select the appropriate material). I'm not sure if the composites
currently being used for the Sunrise or FreedomEV would be printable.
- Get a digital version of the Sunrise or FreedomEV body (and other
parts) by using a large CT scan, or designing one in 3D by hand.
- Print the parts and put the EV together. :D
Note: I haven't yet worked with reprap or similar tools, but plan to try
it out in my spare time.
Eric
Timothy Balcer wrote:
> Anyone who would like to get a primer on OSS should go out and find
> the paper "The Cathedral and The Bazaar" By Eric S. Raymond. Just
> google "Cathedral Bazaar" and you'll find it.
>
> The reason The Bazaar works with software specifically is because most
> of the work and testing does not involve material costs, just man
> power costs, which are generally donated through enthusiasts, and
> through folks who needed to 'scratch a particular itch'. The devo is
> done on commodity machines that are around for other purposes and have
> been paid for either personally, or are deprecated equipment bought at
> discount. Once something gets good enough you get vendors selling
> packaged software in return for maintenance, like RedHat and etc.
>
> Once you have to bring in real material costs, it gets very tricky.
> You simply cannot have a good bazaar unless you have complete free
> flow of work and costs throughout, and that would be really hard with
> something like an EV.
>
> The -design- element could be set up this way, of course. I would say
> that EE components and ideas could easily be Open Sourced and
> developed through a bazaar, and individuals would then test them out
> on conversion EVs, made from commodity items. Since the cost is in the
> battery, it is easy enough for test purposes to use small packs and
> extrapolate range and performance from short test runs. So, this sort
> of thing is possible for an EV, I believe.
>
> I do think, though, that it would be much more effective if only
> elements were designed this way, such as a CAN capable BLDC
> motor/controller made from commodity parts, a programmable BMS, or a
> programmable charger. All separate projects related to the overall
> design which should be vehicle agnostic in general, and perhaps have a
> sub branch that is vehicle type specific.
>
> It would also help if a racing team developed that used the concepts
> from the project, to give juice to the general Bazaar, and to create
> overall credibility.
>
>
>
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Yeah, I know, but the battery is exponentially more expensive then a gas
tank, and their purpose in the overall system is the same. Obviously the
whole system is different, but not necessarily less expensive for an
electric motor/controller combo.
I'm not against EVs I just don't expect anything worthwhile to be for sale
anytime soon if ever.
I will say, that my teenage son couldn't be more excited about the EV we are
building for him, and all of his friends think it is going to be cool too.
If you really want to do something worthwhile, get a kid involved with EVs.
They are who will be driving the marketplace of the future.
damon
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Excellent GM Volt video
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:29:44 -0500
damon> Think about it, the battery pack is a direct replacement for
the
damon> gas tank. How much do you think most gas tanks cost to
damon> manufacture?
That's apples and oranges. The battery pack is the direct replacement for
the gas tank, all the gas you have to put in it and a big chunk of the ICE
(the fuel system anyway).
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
"The hippies and the hipsters did some great stuff in the sixties,
but the geeks pulled their weight too." -- Billy Bragg
_________________________________________________________________
Interest Rates Fall Again! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate new
payment
http://www.lowermybills.com/lre/index.jsp?sourceid=lmb-9632-18679&moid=7581
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Thanks,
Would premium efficiency motors normally be class A rotor? I'm looking
at motors on ebay and frequently a lot of information is missing so
I'm wondering if there are other ways to identify the rotor. Is it
possible to determine the rotor by looking at the slip, class A rotors
having less slip?
On 4/18/07, Dale Ulan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
How do you know if a motor has NEMA-A rotor or NEMA-B rotor? Also I
noticed there are C & D as well, which would be more suited for an EV?
You would have to look at the nameplate data - the model number.
Alternatively, you could dyno test the motor and see how it
does and what you can get out of it.
NEMA-A would probably be better since you are going to be using
the motor with a VFD that can control the amount of slip.
NEMA-B is most common. I would avoid NEMA-C or -D. In an EV
application, sensored control - either vector control or
current/slip control is probably going to be used in all
probability. NEMA-C and -D motors are most useful for
fixed-frequency operation. For that matter, a -B motor is
a compromise, but it is the most common one around so for
that reason, it may be the one to use.
-Dale
--
www.electric-lemon.com
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