EV Digest 6674
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: how businesses work
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Need for Speed (was RE: Silly Tweety!) .. ev is better than i.c.e.
vehicles !
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Transmission Choice
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: What Parts Weigh
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Forklift Motor Choice
by "childreypa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Battery charges and mileage
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Warp9 max motor voltage?
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by "Jay Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Battery charges and mileage
by Henry Heng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Battery charges and mileage
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: NEMA 4 boxes for contactors
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Battery charges and mileage
by Henry Heng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Killacycle in DesignFax online
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Forklift Motor Choice
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) ACIM power (was:"largish" brushless motors available) - long reply
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Transmission Choice
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Forklift Motor Choice
by "George Swartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
i guess it IS on topic to discuss 'how businesses work' in the
context of our central subject : "EV"
i guess it is OFF topic to discuss linux and linus .. so it is a good
idea to discuss it off list .. directly (send copies to me too .. i would
like to be witness to the for/against flow of words) .. and then send
the final position of agreement/disagreement to this list
i also see things the same way .. "Open Source" design of EVs IS
taking place ....
..peekay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: how businesses work
> "Open Source" design of EVs is taking place right now, and not in some
> unspecified future. It remains to be seen whether these designs will be
> profitable or will not. Discussion of the efficacy of Free Software / Open
> Source software is off topic for the EVDL but I invite anyone who would
like
> to argue about it to email me off list : I'm a non-guru who's been using
> GNU/Linux for 10 years.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
okay .. i get it .. my post is a bit confusing ..
i was not asking for 'reply' to the video ..
i was asking for the website/url for THAT videoclip ..
i too don't have it :-((
..peekay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 12:17 AM
Subject: RE: Need for Speed (was RE: Silly Tweety!) .. ev is better than
i.c.e. vehicles !
> > i still haven't got any reply to that video clip where a VW beetle
> > reared up like a horse when it accelerated ...
> I missed that URL -- please re-post! I haven't seen a good Vee-Dub
> wheelstand since the last time I was at the track! :D
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm considering using a different transmission in my 1965 Datsun pickup
conversion.
My fear is getting parts for the stock 65 if I tear up anything.
The ICE is only rated at 60 HP, and I don't really know how bulletproof
the transmission is.
I don't have a clue yet what will fit, but any suggestions on what to
use?
Hopefully the choice will be one with adapter patterns already designed.
Another consideration is one with a hydraulic clutch setup.
I'm looking at a 9" Advanced with 1200A Raptor controller.
Thanks;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How times have changed!
The 22RE engine from my '94 Toyota pickup weighed about 340# after removing the
tranny. This was weighed on an 8K# scale with 25# resolution so I"m guessing
it's within 25# or so.
----- Original Message ----
From: Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 10:22:45 PM
Subject: RE: What Parts Weigh
Here are a few weights ( measured) from the ICE parts taken out of my Toyota
Echo:
>Engine (1.5 liter, not including flywheel) : 146 lbs
Exhaust system ( conplete, including hanging hardware) : 33 lbs
Fuel tank ( incl 12 gal gas) : 88 #
This is a small car ( original curb wt 2040 lbs) with lightweight
components. Obviously. it depends a lot on what you are converting.
Phil>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey everyone,
I'm in the market for some forklift ot conveyor parts for my conversion.
At this point I have no criteria other than I know it has to be rather
large. Can someone please give me an idea of what I should be looking
for. Like as far as specific brands with good equipment, the criteria I
should have, and what voltage I can use with a motor that was for say a
48v forklift? My conversion should have speed in mind, the larger more
powerful motor the better. But what is the largest on the market that I
could get salvage? And I understand controllers are underrated for EV's
so I might have to use a contactor controller. But are there any
controllers that are hefty enough for an EV? I haven't decided on the
voltage to use but it will be dependent on my motor choice and
controller. Please give me some criteria to use as a reference. Thanks
Everyone.
Paul Childrey
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Henry,
"Mileage" is typically expressed in watt-hours/mile and the smaller the better.
Some confusion can exist over this measurement as DC w-hr (what is actually
withdrawn from batteries) will be different than AC w-hr (what gets put into
the batteries). It depends on what you want to measure ($/environmental cost
or vehicle efficiency). AC w-hr can easily be measured (if you have a 120 volt
charger) using a device like Kill-A-Watt (which has a totalizer function).
Volts and amps are what's needed to make the thing go down the road. In
general, the higher the voltage - the better, although there are exceptions.
With higher volts you will generally draw less amps for a given load and one of
the components of electrical loss is related to current flow. As an example of
an exception, I converted an old Aermacchi 350 and I could store more energy by
fitting three Group 31 12-volt batteries than four smaller batteries i.e. a 36
volt system would allow me to store more energy than a 48 volt system. A
different bike or different battery layout might give different results but
that's what worked for me.
Of course, the faster you go the more power it takes and the quicker you
deplete batteries. There's lots to be gained by having light weight and
aerodynamic profile. Just as in a gas vehicle, the faster you go the worse
mileage you get. The NSR 50 is a cool little bike - have fun!
HTH
Frank
----- Original Message ----
From: Henry Heng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 10:50:06 AM
Subject: Battery charges and mileage
Hi guys,
I'm thinking of building an EV bike, but I'm quite confused about how
the mileage, the voltage and the amperage are related. Would anyone mind
explaining it in simpler terms?
I'm looking at a 24-48V motor, top speeds of somewhere between
50-80Km/h, and preferably a range of up to 60Km. I might have to make do
with less, as the bike I'm converting is an NSR 50, which is incredibly
small. I don't know how many batteries I can fit in it yet. I'd just
like to know how I should go about calculating the range and amperage.
thanks,
Henry
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> > I have an older Warp 9 (serial number 2) i
> >
If its gray You should also check to see if the timing is advanced . If the
bolts from the field and armature line up in a straight line then it's not
advanced , should be about 3/4 of an inch off with armature bolt ahead of field
bolt while looking at the tail shaft.
Steve Clunn
> > Thanks for your time,
> >
> > - Steven Ciciora
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The two points in the video that I found to be most interesting were when
Lutz pointed out that batteries that begin to lose performance in 30K-40K
miles were unacceptable. If they expect a 100K mile battery before any
performance loss is noticed, then isn't that a deal killer in and of itself?
Maybe ultracapacitors only? I don't know of any battery that can do 2500
charges without serious performance loss, more like 1000 charges.
The other point in the talk was when he suggested that we add a 25 cent per
gallon tax on diesel and gasoline annually until liquid fuel was equal to
the pricing of Europe ~ $6/gallon. This is the only way that BEVs will ever
have a competitive chance. In fact, it probably should go up 40-50 cents a
year. Without this incentive, EVs can't compete pricewise and Lutz knows
that.
JLC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: Excellent GM Volt video
> On 4/17/07, Randy Burleson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > The Volt is nothing more than an effort to get rid of the bad
> > > publicity that was generated by WKTEC, end of statement.
> > I disagree, but I understand where you are coming from. I'm not drinking
> > their Kool-aid, but I'm also not spreading doom, gloom, and FUD to
> > enhance the chance of it failing. Seems like a recipe for a
> > self-fulfilling prophecy, driven by the potential consumers themselves!
>
> Randii, I'm not spreading anything but what actually happened. FUD is,
> by its nature, a distortion of the facts in order to sow fear. I
> didn't do that. I am simply reporting what they did, in fact, do. And
> not even all of it.
>
> As far as I am concerned, GM is on my contempt list, end of story.
> They sit there with Coke and a few other gems whom I've stopped buying
> products from, and whom I talk to my friends about in VERY honest
> terms.
>
> Why is it always considered FUD and gloom 'n doom when someone B^&%ch
> slaps a big company? Do people really have that much compassion for a
> corporation?
>
> They totally, completely, intentionally screwed us, and our children.
> End of story. There is no coming back from that as far as I am
> concerned.
>
> > They're likelier to get their arses handled by their own unrealistic
> > business commitments to Big Labor, but I expect that the folks who claim
> > that their EV efforts are going to fail will also claim that their own
> > strident voice was what brought GM down.
>
> Their EV efforts are not going to fail, mate. GM isn't going to HAVE
> an EV effort. That's the whole point. They have missed the boat
> completely. The BEV market is going to explode in a few years time,
> and by 2020 we will be seeing 100k+/year EVs sold by major
> manufacturers like Tesla and Phoenix. By that time we will see Lithium
> technology that will give us better than 400 miles per charge, and
> roadside charge times in the minutes instead of hours. In the
> meantime, GM will still be struggling with the spectre of the EV1
> disaster that they initiated. And they don't actually believe that
> people actually, really -want- EVs. Neither does Ford, for that
> matter. They believe that it is a 'vocal fringe' that can cause them
> PR damage, but will not significantly affect sales unless they don't
> do counterspin.. hence.. The Volt.
>
> Oh and by the way I disagree with you about so called 'big labor', but
> thats another discussion :)
>
> >
> > Me, I'll support anyone who brings a mass-marketable, mass-producable,
> > PHEV or BEV to market at modest cost. Heck, I'd own one today if I could
> > find one that met my wife's carrying capacity requirements. Until that
> > happens, I'm on track to build my own lightweight runabout since I can't
> > find what I seek (thought the Bug-E is pretty close!)
>
> I will buy an EV from a company that shows it is actually commited to
> the technology and the promise of EV transport. Like Tesla, Phoenix,
> VentureOne, etc. MAYBE Toyota if they ever get their heads out of
> their arses and make a PHEV that gets 50 miles on a charge without
> ICE, and doesn't look like an erector set toy. But I'll never buy a GM
> product again.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/18/07, Jay Caplan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip> If they expect a 100K mile battery before any
performance loss is noticed, then isn't that a deal killer in and of itself?
Maybe ultracapacitors only? I don't know of any battery that can do 2500
charges without serious performance loss, more like 1000 charges.
Some people have 100K or even 150K miles on their RAV4EVs and claim to
have no significant performance loss.
From the "always-just-around-the-corner" department, Altair Nano
claims to have tested their batts to 15 000 recharge cycles with 85%
capacity remaining.
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Frank,
Thanks a lot. That was very helpful.
Am I right to assume that the amount of charge a battery can hold is
related to it's size?
So if I were to use a typical motorcycle battery instead of the huge
ones everyone else uses, it wouldn't give me the travelling range that I
want?
I had originally intended to connect 3 12V Yuasa batteries together for
a 36 volt system. Looking at the pics online, I'm not sure if i can fit
3 of the ones everyone else is using. 2 maybe.
Henry
Frank John wrote:
> Henry,
>
> "Mileage" is typically expressed in watt-hours/mile and the smaller the
> better. Some confusion can exist over this measurement as DC w-hr (what is
> actually withdrawn from batteries) will be different than AC w-hr (what gets
> put into the batteries). It depends on what you want to measure
> ($/environmental cost or vehicle efficiency). AC w-hr can easily be measured
> (if you have a 120 volt charger) using a device like Kill-A-Watt (which has a
> totalizer function).
>
> Volts and amps are what's needed to make the thing go down the road. In
> general, the higher the voltage - the better, although there are exceptions.
> With higher volts you will generally draw less amps for a given load and one
> of the components of electrical loss is related to current flow. As an
> example of an exception, I converted an old Aermacchi 350 and I could store
> more energy by fitting three Group 31 12-volt batteries than four smaller
> batteries i.e. a 36 volt system would allow me to store more energy than a 48
> volt system. A different bike or different battery layout might give
> different results but that's what worked for me.
>
> Of course, the faster you go the more power it takes and the quicker you
> deplete batteries. There's lots to be gained by having light weight and
> aerodynamic profile. Just as in a gas vehicle, the faster you go the worse
> mileage you get. The NSR 50 is a cool little bike - have fun!
>
> HTH
>
> Frank
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Henry Heng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 10:50:06 AM
> Subject: Battery charges and mileage
>
> Hi guys,
>
> I'm thinking of building an EV bike, but I'm quite confused about how
> the mileage, the voltage and the amperage are related. Would anyone mind
> explaining it in simpler terms?
>
> I'm looking at a 24-48V motor, top speeds of somewhere between
> 50-80Km/h, and preferably a range of up to 60Km. I might have to make do
> with less, as the bike I'm converting is an NSR 50, which is incredibly
> small. I don't know how many batteries I can fit in it yet. I'd just
> like to know how I should go about calculating the range and amperage.
>
> thanks,
> Henry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Henry, generally capacity seems to be related to weight. More lead = more
range. Be careful of regular Yuasa batteries as they're starting batteries and
not designed for continual deep-discharge. Search around for discussion on the
differences: there's a lot of info out there. Sometimes a larger frame will
allow more batteries. Look around on www.austinev.org/evalbum for motorcycles
and see what others have done. I haven't gotten around to posting my bike yet
but I have about 200# of AGM's. These batteries are rated at 80-amp discharge
for one hour and I expect a 35 mph range of 30+ miles.
----- Original Message ----
From: Henry Heng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 9:41:10 AM
Subject: Re: Battery charges and mileage
Hi Frank,
Thanks a lot. That was very helpful.
Am I right to assume that the amount of charge a battery can hold is
related to it's size?
So if I were to use a typical motorcycle battery instead of the huge
ones everyone else uses, it wouldn't give me the travelling range that I
want?
I had originally intended to connect 3 12V Yuasa batteries together for
a 36 volt system. Looking at the pics online, I'm not sure if i can fit
3 of the ones everyone else is using. 2 maybe.
Henry
Frank John wrote:
> Henry,
>
> "Mileage" is typically expressed in watt-hours/mile and the smaller the
> better. Some confusion can exist over this measurement as DC w-hr (what is
> actually withdrawn from batteries) will be different than AC w-hr (what gets
> put into the batteries). It depends on what you want to measure
> ($/environmental cost or vehicle efficiency). AC w-hr can easily be measured
> (if you have a 120 volt charger) using a device like Kill-A-Watt (which has a
> totalizer function).
>
> Volts and amps are what's needed to make the thing go down the road. In
> general, the higher the voltage - the better, although there are exceptions.
> With higher volts you will generally draw less amps for a given load and one
> of the components of electrical loss is related to current flow. As an
> example of an exception, I converted an old Aermacchi 350 and I could store
> more energy by fitting three Group 31 12-volt batteries than four smaller
> batteries i.e. a 36 volt system would allow me to store more energy than a 48
> volt system. A different bike or different battery layout might give
> different results but that's what worked for me.
>
> Of course, the faster you go the more power it takes and the quicker you
> deplete batteries. There's lots to be gained by having light weight and
> aerodynamic profile. Just as in a gas vehicle, the faster you go the worse
> mileage you get. The NSR 50 is a cool little bike - have fun!
>
> HTH
>
> Frank
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Henry Heng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 10:50:06 AM
> Subject: Battery charges and mileage
>
> Hi guys,
>
> I'm thinking of building an EV bike, but I'm quite confused about how
> the mileage, the voltage and the amperage are related. Would anyone mind
> explaining it in simpler terms?
>
> I'm looking at a 24-48V motor, top speeds of somewhere between
> 50-80Km/h, and preferably a range of up to 60Km. I might have to make do
> with less, as the bike I'm converting is an NSR 50, which is incredibly
> small. I don't know how many batteries I can fit in it yet. I'd just
> like to know how I should go about calculating the range and amperage.
>
> thanks,
> Henry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart writes:
>
> So, the question you have to answer is "how hot does it get inside that
> box with 44 watts of heat being produced continuously"? You could
> calculate it if you had all the numbers, but they are hard to get. So,
> do a test: Stick 44 watts worth of resistors or light bulbs in the box,
> and *measure* the temperature inside.
>
> If there are literally no holes, and it's a plastic or fiberglass box,
> you'll be amazed at how warm it can get inside!
To put this into perspective, the battery heaters in my Geo Prizm are rated
at 36 watts, but I have them wired two in series, so they're putting out
just 18 watts. This, with a 1/2 inch of insulation and a simple controller,
is enough to keep the Optima Yellow Tops at 70F, and the heaters are off
most of the time.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/17/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Jeff Major wrote:
> Not that rotor temperature is not important, but these cast rotors have no
insulation. Melting point of aluminum is 660 deg C. The stator limit should be
in the 150 to180 d C range. Keep your stator within limit and the rotor will
probably be all right.
You run into problems with the rotor windings at very high torques
and/or very low speeds. If you're generating full torque at stall, for
example, the stator windings stay pretty cool buy you can *melt* the
rotor windings!
Thats what i was thinking as well. Continuous low-speed operation
tends to cause issues with inverter-driven conveyor motors for
example, even at no loads. The case was much worse with older variable
V/hz inverters, with vector control things seem to be somewhat better.
In EV app you will never know the exact operating conditions
beforehand, you could be stuck at low speed uphill crawl for a long
time, so extra monitoring for all possible operating parameters is a
wise thing to do, plus it doesnt usually cost anything in hardware (
microcontrollers and storage is dirt cheap compared to a blown motor )
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Frank,
I have checked that place out. The bike with the closest frame to what I
have is the YSR 50 by Jim Weir. http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/295
I've emailed him but he hasn't replied yet, I don't think he's using
that email anymore, last update was over 5 years ago. Judging from his
pics, I should be able to fit 2 batteries in. I won't know till I can
get my hands on at least 1 battery. I'll be hollowing out the fuel tank,
and had originally intended to place the charger in there, (figured a
wire coming out of the fuel cap would look cute) but under the
circumstances, I might have to move that to under the seat.
Thanks,
Henry
Frank John wrote:
> Hi Henry, generally capacity seems to be related to weight. More lead = more
> range. Be careful of regular Yuasa batteries as they're starting batteries
> and not designed for continual deep-discharge. Search around for discussion
> on the differences: there's a lot of info out there. Sometimes a larger
> frame will allow more batteries. Look around on www.austinev.org/evalbum for
> motorcycles and see what others have done. I haven't gotten around to
> posting my bike yet but I have about 200# of AGM's. These batteries are
> rated at 80-amp discharge for one hour and I expect a 35 mph range of 30+
> miles.
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Henry Heng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 9:41:10 AM
> Subject: Re: Battery charges and mileage
>
> Hi Frank,
>
> Thanks a lot. That was very helpful.
> Am I right to assume that the amount of charge a battery can hold is
> related to it's size?
> So if I were to use a typical motorcycle battery instead of the huge
> ones everyone else uses, it wouldn't give me the travelling range that I
> want?
> I had originally intended to connect 3 12V Yuasa batteries together for
> a 36 volt system. Looking at the pics online, I'm not sure if i can fit
> 3 of the ones everyone else is using. 2 maybe.
>
> Henry
>
> Frank John wrote:
>
>> Henry,
>>
>> "Mileage" is typically expressed in watt-hours/mile and the smaller the
>> better. Some confusion can exist over this measurement as DC w-hr (what is
>> actually withdrawn from batteries) will be different than AC w-hr (what gets
>> put into the batteries). It depends on what you want to measure
>> ($/environmental cost or vehicle efficiency). AC w-hr can easily be
>> measured (if you have a 120 volt charger) using a device like Kill-A-Watt
>> (which has a totalizer function).
>>
>> Volts and amps are what's needed to make the thing go down the road. In
>> general, the higher the voltage - the better, although there are exceptions.
>> With higher volts you will generally draw less amps for a given load and
>> one of the components of electrical loss is related to current flow. As an
>> example of an exception, I converted an old Aermacchi 350 and I could store
>> more energy by fitting three Group 31 12-volt batteries than four smaller
>> batteries i.e. a 36 volt system would allow me to store more energy than a
>> 48 volt system. A different bike or different battery layout might give
>> different results but that's what worked for me.
>>
>> Of course, the faster you go the more power it takes and the quicker you
>> deplete batteries. There's lots to be gained by having light weight and
>> aerodynamic profile. Just as in a gas vehicle, the faster you go the worse
>> mileage you get. The NSR 50 is a cool little bike - have fun!
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Henry Heng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 10:50:06 AM
>> Subject: Battery charges and mileage
>>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> I'm thinking of building an EV bike, but I'm quite confused about how
>> the mileage, the voltage and the amperage are related. Would anyone mind
>> explaining it in simpler terms?
>>
>> I'm looking at a 24-48V motor, top speeds of somewhere between
>> 50-80Km/h, and preferably a range of up to 60Km. I might have to make do
>> with less, as the bike I'm converting is an NSR 50, which is incredibly
>> small. I don't know how many batteries I can fit in it yet. I'd just
>> like to know how I should go about calculating the range and amperage.
>>
>> thanks,
>> Henry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yet another Killacycle article in the technical press.
http://www.manufacturingcenter.com/dfx/news/stories/feature-5.asp
Lynn
See my 100% Factory Built S10E at:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/722
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There are two different kind of forklift motors you will run across, either
might be acceptable depending on your needs. There are lift motors and
traction motors. I just salvaged a 6.7 inch ADC lift motor for my
conversion. This one is on the smallish size for an EV, but it did have
some good things going for it, and I am working with a 1970 Datsun pickup
which is only about 2200 lbs stock. The traction motors are generally of
larger size.
The reasons I picked this motor.
Availability, it was the best thing they had for the money.
I knew I would be able to easily replace the shaft with something more
suitable (well Jim Husted could).
It has 8 brushes not just 4. The stock ADC brushes are easy to come by and
hold up well. It uses the same brushes as the ADC 9" motor.
The ADC motors even at this size have proven that they can hold up in an EV.
I am planning on adding a blower to the motor to make up for it's smaller
size.
A few of the mods we did to the motor included splitting the field windings
and adding terminals to allow it to run in either direction. Pressed in a
new beefier shaft. Added extra mounting holes to the case as well as timing
advancedment holes, and replaced the bearings.
In conclusion, I would say the most important things to consider are...
Rotational direction, make sure it will spin the direction you need it to.
Brushes, make sure you have big beefy brushes and leads.
Shaft, make sure you have a shaft you can work with.
End plate, make sure you have an end plate you can mount to.
Forklifts are big heavy machines, and the motors are very stout. It is
unlikely you will want to try and run an EV at the 36 - 48 volts that your
forklift motor is currently running at, so you will likely want to advance
the timing on the motor by moving the brush ring.
Happy hunting.
Damon
From: "childreypa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Forklift Motor Choice
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:53:15 -0400
Hey everyone,
I'm in the market for some forklift ot conveyor parts for my conversion.
At this point I have no criteria other than I know it has to be rather
large. Can someone please give me an idea of what I should be looking
for. Like as far as specific brands with good equipment, the criteria I
should have, and what voltage I can use with a motor that was for say a
48v forklift? My conversion should have speed in mind, the larger more
powerful motor the better. But what is the largest on the market that I
could get salvage? And I understand controllers are underrated for EV's
so I might have to use a contactor controller. But are there any
controllers that are hefty enough for an EV? I haven't decided on the
voltage to use but it will be dependent on my motor choice and
controller. Please give me some criteria to use as a reference. Thanks
Everyone.
Paul Childrey
_________________________________________________________________
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Now how do we pump up that same motor to say, 200hp? Increase the hz?
What's the absolute upper limits?
At a constant motor speed, If you maintain a constant voltage
and increase the frequency of the VFD, torque goes up until
you reach the breakdown torque point. All this time, the motor
current is rising, and the current flowing in the rotor (and
the frequency of the current flowing in the rotor) is increasing.
At the breakdown torque point, torque will start to fall, even
as you increase the frequency. At about 80% of maximum torque,
the motor efficiency is acceptable. Above this, losses reduce
efficiency a lot. If you maintain the same voltage, you can
approximately double (with a NEMA-B rotor), or approximately
triple (with a NEMA-A rotor) the torque produced. Roughly,
if you double the torque (by raising the frequency a few Hz
to get you on the maximum torque point without a high efficiency
penalty), you'll take double the current (at a fixed voltage).
To get the torque higher, we may raise the voltage of the motor.
Note that the current will not rise appreciably at zero slip.
If we, say, double the voltage on the motor, the torque vs.
slip curve roughly doubles - ie you get twice the torque. But
to achieve this, the current will double. And if you already
increased the torque output by raising the slip frequency to
its limit, you'll take double that current, but be making four
times the rated torque of the motor. At this point, the windings
are getting pretty warm, but for a short period of time, it
might be ok. This is what I think is the limiting thing that
will affect how much power you can squeeze out, and it'll be
motor specific. At some point you saturate the magnetics of
the stator (or the rotor) and then you get little more torque.
Also, if you raise the current level in the rotor too much,
you can melt the 'winding'. Remember that there will be
hundreds or thousands of amperes flowing through that rotor.
The rotor 'winding' is usually made by casting aluminum into
slots in the rotor laminations, and that is a rather substantial
piece of aluminum conductor.
To get more power again, we can take our 1800 RPM motor and run
it at 6000 RPM. It won't fly apart if it's balanced. We just
raised our power three times. Except we need three times the
voltage as we did before. Now, that's a limiting factor.
If we started with a 230V AC motor, but now we're asking for
six times that voltage... the motor's windings won't hold
that in. So we need to reconfigure the motor's winding to
maybe 60 or 70V so we can maintain a battery voltage less than
400V. More winding sections in parallel, and fewer turns of
bigger wire. When you run out of voltage, you need to accept
that the torque will drop as RPM's go up, but the power will
remain roughly the same. That's how Solectria (and Alan Cocconi)
manage to use a fixed gearbox. They set up the motor to have
constant torque below some speed, and above that, the torque
drops but the power remains constant. If you pick that speed
to be, say, 30mph, the torque to the wheels will drop just
as it does when you upshift a standard transmission. This happens
because you run out of volts. Note that a series-wound DC
motor does the same thing when in a current-limiting PWM
controller, except that spinning up to 13,000 RPM isn't
really a great thing to do to brushes...
So, it's relatively easy (and possible) to get ten times the
output power of an ACIM. It's been done - the Valentine book
on VFD's had them using a 256 frame 20hp motor at the
100kW+ level. They were limited by 400A IGBT's.
Now, what's the catch (besides getting
enough voltage and/or current to the motor)? If you saturate
the magnetics of the motor, it becomes much less efficient,
and it's a case where you double the current but get maybe
10% more torque because most of the new magnetic field just
gets lost because the steel won't carry it. That's motor
specific, and the step where that is going to be limited
will be where you raise the voltage applied to the motor to
make the torque vs. slip curve steeper.
But it's not a case of just increasing Hz or increasing
voltage or increasing current. You have to do each in a
carefully coordinated manner.
-Dale
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If you go with an S10 transmission then you can easily get an adapter plate,
but I would just stick with the stock transmission unless you are
considering doing some serious racing. I know that John Wayland's stock
transmission took years of abuse in Blue Meanie before second gear finally
let go, then I'm pretty sure he just swapped in another of the same thing.
damon
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Transmission Choice
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 06:10:58 -0500
I'm considering using a different transmission in my 1965 Datsun pickup
conversion.
My fear is getting parts for the stock 65 if I tear up anything.
The ICE is only rated at 60 HP, and I don't really know how bulletproof
the transmission is.
I don't have a clue yet what will fit, but any suggestions on what to
use?
Hopefully the choice will be one with adapter patterns already designed.
Another consideration is one with a hydraulic clutch setup.
I'm looking at a 9" Advanced with 1200A Raptor controller.
Thanks;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
_________________________________________________________________
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Forklift motors often have open armature winding slots and windings that
are then banded. Motors with this type of construction have strict RPM
limits before flying apart, and are therefore not a high performance motors
that you maybe you are looking for. If you can find a motor with a semi
closed slot where the slot is just wide enough allow entrance of the wire,
and is then closed up with an insulating piece which blocks the wires from
flying out, you will have a motor with higher RPM capability. Another way
to tell is that lower voltage open slot armatures are wound with rectangular
wire, and semi closed slot armatures are wound with round wire. Forklift
motors are always connected to their load and don't have the opportunity to
spin up like the motor in your conversion, if you use a clutch, or intend to
go high speed. The real experts on this board can correct me if I am wrong.
On Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:53:15 -0400, childreypa wrote
> Hey everyone,
> I'm in the market for some forklift ot conveyor parts for my conversion.
> At this point I have no criteria other than I know it has to be
> rather large. Can someone please give me an idea of what I should be
> looking for. Like as far as specific brands with good equipment, the
> criteria I should have, and what voltage I can use with a motor that
> was for say a 48v forklift? My conversion should have speed in mind,
> the larger more powerful motor the better. But what is the largest
> on the market that I could get salvage? And I understand controllers
> are underrated for EV's so I might have to use a contactor
> controller. But are there any controllers that are hefty enough for
> an EV? I haven't decided on the voltage to use but it will be
> dependent on my motor choice and controller. Please give me some
> criteria to use as a reference. Thanks Everyone. Paul Childrey
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On 4/18/07, Kaido Kert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 4/18/07, Jay Caplan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> <snip> If they expect a 100K mile battery before any
> performance loss is noticed, then isn't that a deal killer in and of itself?
> Maybe ultracapacitors only? I don't know of any battery that can do 2500
> charges without serious performance loss, more like 1000 charges.
Some people have 100K or even 150K miles on their RAV4EVs and claim to
have no significant performance loss.
>From the "always-just-around-the-corner" department, Altair Nano
claims to have tested their batts to 15 000 recharge cycles with 85%
capacity remaining.
The city of Sacramento has RAV4 EVs that have gone 400,000 miles
without significant performance degradation. Thats Four Hundred
Thousand Miles folks. If you do the math, that means 100 miles per day
for 10 years. They are using the Panasonic chemistry NiMH batteries
that Chevron sued them to keep OUT of EV use.
Altair Nano is another contender, yes. A123 seems to have fantastic
possibilities as well. The battery technology is here, now. NiMH
technology was here as well, and could have provided cars to millions
of commuters who, believe me, would have bought these things like
hotcakes if they were just advertised and marketed correctly. We don't
need a gas tax to provide economic offsets to accomplish this. People
would be willing to put extra money into a car that (a) had almost no
maintenance costs and (b) had no gasoline/diesel costs and you just
showed them the average numbers of what those things cost vs. the
Electric car.
Of course, we never got to see THOSE commercials. They were never
made. I wonder how many people would have been turned on by a 2 seater
car that did 0-60 in less than 10 seconds, didn't use gasoline, had a
120 mile range and needed almost zero maintenance? Every time I tell
anybody this simple equation they ask where they can GET such a car.
And an ACTUAL just around the corner is the issue of using chromium in
an electrode with lithium chemistry. This is being worked on and once
that gets figured out we'll have 500mile+ range out of a lithium pack,
as well as bulk charging in minutes. With a 500 mile range for a light
car you could get a 250 mile range for a heavy one, and with bulk
charging it spells game over for petro.
Do NOT listen to GM, or any of the other majors. They know extremely
well how the numbers work. They make oodles of cash on replacement
parts for ICE based cars and so do their dealers, so they do NOT want
to see electric vehicles on the road en masse. The Volt is pure
propaganda, and GMs attitude towards it is simply as a tool to prevent
damage to their reputation. They don't want to make it, and they are
lying like banshees about how much it cost them to make the EV1. It
wasn't that they couldn't make a profit from EV1s.. they could. They
just couldn't make AS MUCH a profit from it, and it was essentially
only one time, at point of sale.
Even Toyota is reticent about the hybrids they've already produced,
but the genie is out of the bottle with that one and they are now
committed. Honda axed the Insight as well and put in play inferior mpg
series hybrids. And now that hybrids are in the hands of the common
man, suddenly they are saying "Hey.. wtf can't you put a bigger
battery in here and let me plug it in?"
...apologies for the rant folks... but I just get my back up when
anyone sympathizes with the likes of GM. To me its like saying "Well
yeah, I know he beat the crap out of you to steal your lunch money,
but he didn't have any choice! He needed an extra two dollars to buy
that steak he wanted. Maybe in future you can just give him part of
your money so as to avoid the beating, and we'll see if steak
technology comes down enough in price so that he doesn't have to use a
baseball bat anymore. No really! He's working on salad technology but
you can only get fresh greens for 4 months a year! Once that gets
worked out, he won't have to beat you up anymore."
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The city of Sacramento has RAV4 EVs that have gone 400,000 miles
without significant performance degradation. Thats Four Hundred
Thousand Miles folks. If you do the math, that means 100 miles per day
for 10 years. They are using the Panasonic chemistry NiMH batteries
that Chevron sued them to keep OUT of EV use.
And the price of one of those battery packs was...
My guess is that no one really knows, but if it is somewhere in the $20K -
$30K range just for the battery pack then there goes your selling like
hotcakes theory. Let's see, I can buy the gas version of this car for $20K
or I can pay two to three times that for the Electric version.
The problem still is the batteries. We now have technology that is getting
better at storing energy, although still no where near what gasoline does,
but the economics of the batteries is tough. Think about it, the battery
pack is a direct replacement for the gas tank. How much do you think most
gas tanks cost to manufacture?
Even when EV's can meet the specs of their gas powered counterparts they are
going to be a tough sell because the batteries guarantee an initial higher
cost. The forward thinking consumer may see enough benefit to overlook this
cost but the status quo is likely to be around for a lot longer than anyone
on this list would like.
In the meantime, keep those backyard conversions rolling out because it is
likely to be the only accessible EV source for some time to come.
damon
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