EV Digest 6699
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: We're screwed.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Fixin my Blue Meanie envy
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Going Over The Limit
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: Motor, controller & battery recommendations?
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Light EV, controller/motor?
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Light EV, controller/motor?
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Just a little scary....
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Fixin my Blue Meanie envy
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Just a little scary....
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Light EV, controller/motor?
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: LED headlight bulbs?Very OT
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Light EV, controller/motor?
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Motor, controller & battery recommendations?
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Light EV, controller/motor?
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Fixin my Blue Meanie envy
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Light EV, controller/motor?
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Youtube video
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Light EV, controller/motor?
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: LED headlight bulbs?Very OT
by Lawrence Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Gear Ratio for a One-Speed (was RE: Light EV, controller/motor?)
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Light EV, controller/motor?
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Gear Ratio for a One-Speed (was RE: Light EV, controller/motor?)
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Light EV, controller/motor?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Light EV, controller/motor?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Light EV, controller/motor?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Kind OT: homemade disk motors
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) OT: Generator and UPS
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Gear Ratio for a One-Speed (was RE: Light EV,
controller/motor?)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Rich> I explained what drivetrain was under the skin and why I chose it
Rich> and everyone else pretty much agreed that it was a useless idea
Rich> because you can't jump in and drive for an unlimited number of
Rich> miles.
Someone has to buy the last gas guzzler. Sounds you just met a few people
who will be very near the end. ;-)
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
"The hippies and the hipsters did some great stuff in the sixties,
but the geeks pulled their weight too." -- Billy Bragg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes but whos motor is it ?!
I distinctly remember Husted laying calim to ALL his babies ;-P
Maybe now you should work this deal with Otmar to sell Mike of at slave labor
wages and get you a Zilla out of the deal. With all the learning you're
putting Mike through you might be buying parts from him someday :-O
But that, I guess, wouldn't be such a bad thing.
Good luck.
Mike
>damon henry wrote:
>
> Oh, and just so everyone is clear on this. This is MY truck.
> Mike gets to
> help build it and use it like it is his own over the next couple
> of years,
> but it is MY truck. Got it :-)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim> I was wondering what experience folks have had with strengthening
Tim> things other than springs to handle additional weight in smaller
Tim> cars, such as anti sway bars and such to prevent wrack, or outright
Tim> frame strengthening through creative welding. Is there any rule of
Tim> thumb for that, in terms of the GVW, or is it strictly a case by
Tim> case analysis?
I'm most recently familiar with 914s (though not electrified and only by
reading), but I suspect the concept holds true for most cars. I recommend
you look at what people do with your candidate car when they race them. For
example, in the 914 world besides obvious rust repair it's common for people
to weld in the 914/6GT-style frame strenghtening kit and possibly a
longitudinal stiffening kit, install a 911 front end of some more recent and
beefier vintage, any of a number of different brake upgrades (larger master
cylinder, vented rotors, larger calipers, etc), and of course, stiffer
springs and sway bars where appropriate. For cars like 911s and 914s which
are frequently raced there are approximately a gazillion ways to "improve"
them for racing, maybe only a half a gazillion ways if you don't care about
making the engine go faster.
In fact, if you can find a car which has already been set up to autocross it
might turn out that most of the necessary suspension/brake mods have already
been done. Sell the ICE and go from there. Of course, the interior might
also be a bit spartan in a racer. ;-)
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
"The hippies and the hipsters did some great stuff in the sixties,
but the geeks pulled their weight too." -- Billy Bragg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Marty,
Sounds like a neat project. Are you sure you know
what you're doing with the automatic trans? We did
one years ago without the torque converter and had to
do a lot of extra work because there was an internal
pump you lose without the idling motor. We went to an
external pump, but it took a lot of trial and error to
get it right. Once there it was sweet. Another way
used by EcoElectric was to keep the torque converter
and idle the electric motor, which I never found
appealing. Manual trans may be easier. But I am not
a transmission expert, but learned more than I ever
wanted to know about automatics.
Jeff
--- Marty Hewes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Newbie here, humbly begging knowledge so as not to
> make expensive mistakes.
>
> I'm starting with a 1978 Jeep CJ-7 frame (new
> replacement), fiberglass body
> and 2 wheel drive. Right now, with the frame,
> springs, axles and body I'm
> at 1550 lbs. I'm expecting it to come in around
> 2000 without batteries and
> motor (a stock, all steel CJ-7 4 wheel drive with an
> iron 6 cylinder was
> about 2650). GVWR on a CJ-7 with the heavy duty
> option is around 4300, so
> weight capacity should be no problem. I'm planning
> on using a 3 speed auto
> trans (Turbo 350, no overdrive) without a converter
> for rotational mass and
> weight reduction. First gear is around 2.5 to 1.
> The rear end in a Jeep
> can easily be changed to almost anything. Frontal
> area is pretty small (old
> Jeeps are narrow), but cd stinks.
>
<snip>
,
> Marty
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Have you looked at the vortex?
--- Timothy Balcer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> >
> >
> > Has anyone built an electric Doran or an electric
> Tri-Magnum?
> > http://www.rqriley.com/doran.html
> > http://www.rqriley.com/tri-mag.html
> >
> > I like the idea of a larger (2-passenger)
> vehicle...
>
>
> For some reason I like the TriMuter better than the
> Tri Magnum, although I
> realize it is 'less safe' since it is a trike
> design. I am still thinking
> about making one, although changing the styling..
> it's on my list of
> 'possibilities'. :) The thing is there is not a
> whole heck of a lot of space
> for battery. You need maximum wh/l with those or you
> only get 40 miles or so
> (there is an electric Doran in the EVAlbum)
> Definitely an argument for LiPo,
> but they are just so darned pricey.
>
> Also, don't forget the folks at rqriley.com
> > They're working the plans for a hybrid/diesel...
> > http://www.rqriley.com/xr3.htm
>
>
> Definitely! I'm on the notification list for that.
> It looks really
> interesting. I'd probably end up putting battery
> where the ICE is though!
>
> --T
>
>
__________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Randii and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Light EV, controller/motor?
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 07:52:38 -0700
>I'm planning a small, simple 3-wheeler EV (half-on or
>smaller, see below), and I'm at a point where I need to
>plan budget, and that means picking a motor (series) and
>controller -- I'm pretty committed to AGMs for high output
>and low weight.
You may get high output but low weight is not a AGM
strong point as they have only about 85% of the range
compared to a good flooded batt. If you are going that size,
go for BB600's instead at about 1/3 the cost and about the
same amps, at least as far as you need at about 800.
Or go Trojan 12vdc 100-130 amphr batts to get the
range you want. 6 would be 360-420 lbs and give you almost
twice the range as the AGM's at much less cost. Especially
as you will need buddy pairs AGM's to get the range you
need..
FWIW, I'm willing to pay a fair price for
>motor and controller -- no need to dumpster-dive, but no
>need to over-spend. My usage is basic commute, 30 miles
>round trip -- highway-capable preferred but not absolutely
>necessary.
Go either contactor controller or a Altrax 7245,
$475 or a combo, starting on the Altrax and switching
quickily to the CC for more power. Also several 1000 amp
48vdc controllers out there that will do the job well.
The 85lb L91- D+D ES31 are the same starting point
for the Killa-cycle so should easily do you. I'd even go
smaller like the 50 lb A-89, ES21-$475 at your weight. The E
woody has a GE that size. The Freedom has either the L91 or
2- A89's at 1350 lbs. Prices D+D who are the original ADC
owners, company after they sold their ADC name, 8" and
larger line.
The plan is to slide under 1000 pounds (<400
>chassis, <100 body, <400 batteries, <150 motor, and
>precious little else), fantasy target is actually 800.
Ewoody body/chassis 235 lbs, motor 50lbs, Too heavy VW
front suspension 165lbs, wheel/tire 25lb each. It weighed
under 900lbs with a 36vdc pack it mostly used. Another 100
lbs could be saved by using a lighter front end.
Consider wood/epoxy for your body/chassis, light,
strong, looks great done clear, easy to build, easy to throw
away if you screw up, great to learn with. Especially on
your first designs as they only cost a couple hunderd bucks
each. I like to build a quick and dirty first one to learn
how to do it right, then build the second correctly to a
better finish. If nothing else, mock it up in ply to see if
everything fits, ect.
>
>Eight 12V Optima D34 Yellow Top batteries total ~352
>pounds. I'm planning 96V, but I might be able to get by
>with a 72-volt pack. I know that Jerry made the E-Woody
>work with a 48V pack, and I'm shooting for a similar weight
>, but I imagine that I'm more aggressive with the
>accelerator. (http://www.1st-optima-batteries.com/ tells me
>that YT D34s are 12V, 55 AH, 120 reserve minutes;
>10x6.8x7.8" <Height includes 1" terminals>; 43.8 lbs;
>$174.95 each, includes shipping) Low weight trumps cost per
>watt, but I'll miss the ability to equalize. I plan to use
>a bank of individal chargers to keep from gassing about a
>grand worth of AGMs.
You won't be able to use that amperage as you will
just burn off the tire so no reason for AGM's. And they are
not lightweight for their range and expensive to charge.
>
>A potential point of complication is that I'm going to
>start with chain-drive and no transmission... I'm not sure
>if I can get the acceleration and range of speed I desire,
>but I will try.
Go with belt drive or your will quickly understand
why you should have, too much messy, greasy work which is
what I came to EV's to get away from. Only homebuilt EV's
use transmissions and you certainly don't need one so just
put a belt from the motor to the rear wheel like the
Sparrow, ect.
Jerry Dycus
>
>I'm open to suggestions on appropriate motors (and
>vendors!)... I'm thinking a 6.7" should scoot fairly well
>in such a lightweight rig, but have a hard time breaking my
>bigger-is-better hot-rod habit, and am also looking at 8"
>motors. I'm entirely baffled as to how big a controller I
>need... I've studied the EV Album and there's IMHO a lack
>of consensus for what is needed and what would just be nice
>to have.
>
>Comments?
>
>Randii
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Go to Google.
Click on "advanced search."
Pick a language you have heard of and then type in "KillaCycle" in
the search field.
Just a little scary how quickly story has spread via the web, but nifty too.
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The motor very well may be Mike's :-) I can't keep my mind off of the
finished siamese 6.7's or the half complete siamese 7's Jim had sitting on
his shop floor. I just keep telling myself, lets put all this together
first and see how it goes... You've got the rest of your life to play with
it after that...
And believe me, the Mike angle worked so well with Jim, I just may rent him
out to Otmar for a while. The problem is getting ahold of Otmar. Unless
you have access to his secret Bat Signal like Wayland does, he lays pretty
low while he tries to get his controllers built. Next time I spot him in
Portland, I'm going to see if I can at least arrainge a little show and tell
down in Corvallis :-)
Unfortunately, just living in the Portland area doesn't guarantee access to
all the different EV gurus time and resources. They all have busy lifes of
their own and have had to learn to ration out their assistance in order to
keep from going crazy. When they can help they do, and very generously, so
I tend to put out a feeler or two and if they don't respond I find a
different way to get things done.
damon
From: MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Fixin my Blue Meanie envy
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 12:01:19 -0800
Yes but whos motor is it ?!
I distinctly remember Husted laying calim to ALL his babies ;-P
Maybe now you should work this deal with Otmar to sell Mike of at slave
labor wages and get you a Zilla out of the deal. With all the learning
you're putting Mike through you might be buying parts from him someday :-O
But that, I guess, wouldn't be such a bad thing.
Good luck.
Mike
>damon henry wrote:
>
> Oh, and just so everyone is clear on this. This is MY truck.
> Mike gets to
> help build it and use it like it is his own over the next couple
> of years,
> but it is MY truck. Got it :-)
>
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been meaning to mention just how big of a deal I think this has become.
Because you are dealing with A123, and because A123 is involved in a
diversity of markets RC, Powertools etc... I really think KillaCycle is
perhaps the biggest EV story ever. I see it everywhere. Great job!
damon
From: Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Just a little scary....
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:33:35 -0600
Go to Google.
Click on "advanced search."
Pick a language you have heard of and then type in "KillaCycle" in the
search field.
Just a little scary how quickly story has spread via the web, but nifty
too.
Bill Dube'
_________________________________________________________________
Mortgage rates near historic lows. Refinance $200,000 loan for as low as
$771/month*
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
there are some other graphs at
http://www.lemcoltd.com/lem_200.htm
I too am puzzled by them.
JF
> ... but if you wanted to spring a bit more cash you could get the
larger
> LEMCO motor, save a bit of weight, have more efficiency, and get
Regen.
I'd be willing to stretch that far, if the motor were perfect.... Would
the LEM-170 be the best fit of LEMCO offerings? I'm looking around right
now on the net for other DC efficiency ratings...
LEMCO's light weight looks good, but all of their graphs just show
limited-range RPM windows. http://www.lemcoltd.com/lem_170.htm Will this
work full-range in EV use?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > I'm all for having such doo-dads and luxuries as OPTIONS, but
> > changing the REQUIREMENTS just adds more complication and expense
> > to transportation that is already IMHO over-burdened.
> Everything depends on how the regulations are written.
> A good standard specifies the *result* or *performance* that they
> are trying to achieve, but not the method to achieve it. This leaves
> the door open to new and creative solutions. Ideally, the spec is
> concisely worded, so measuring whether or not you meet it is easy
> and straightforward.
Agreed. I'd also suggest that good standards should keep an eye toward
being enforceable, as well.
If anyone is serious about pursuing this, the Specialty Equipment Market
Association (SEMA) has an active group working these issues, under the
umbrella of the SEMA Action Network. There's a link on
http://www.sema.org/main/semaorghome.aspx?id=55159 if you want to pitch
in. SEMA works to improve Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS),
and have recently been working directly with NHTSA to work headlamp
glare issues, specifically _perceived_glare_ from HIDs, HID knock-offs,
higher-mounted, and supplemental front-mounted auxiliary.
Here's an interesting SEMA article from a while back on LEDs, to drag
this back to the original LED topic:
http://www.sema.org/main/semaorghome.aspx?id=53903
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
Not the normal way to plot motor performance. Usually
torque is the X axis and RPM, Amps, Power and
Efficiency are all plotted together with a multiple Y
axis.
As for comment regarding limited-range RPM window, it
looks like these were tests at battery voltage with
loads up to about 200 amps. The motor would run at
the same torque per amp at any speed lower than that
when your controller reduces battery voltage down to a
lower motor voltage. The RPM shown there would be the
maximum for that particular battery voltage.
Jeff
--- john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> there are some other graphs at
> http://www.lemcoltd.com/lem_200.htm
>
> I too am puzzled by them.
>
> JF
>
> >>
> >> > ... but if you wanted to spring a bit more cash
> you could get the
> >> larger
> >> > LEMCO motor, save a bit of weight, have more
> efficiency, and get
> >> Regen.
> >> I'd be willing to stretch that far, if the motor
> were perfect.... Would
> >> the LEM-170 be the best fit of LEMCO offerings?
> I'm looking around right
> >> now on the net for other DC efficiency ratings...
> >>
> >> LEMCO's light weight looks good, but all of their
> graphs just show
> >> limited-range RPM windows.
> http://www.lemcoltd.com/lem_170.htm Will this
> >> work full-range in EV use?
> >
> >
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jeff,
Na, I don't know what I'm doing, but that never stopped me before :). Gotta
learn somehow. I've looked into it a bit. I'm assuming that even without a
converter, the valve body will drain back into the pan with the motor
stopped, which would cause a delay when the motor is spun up. So I suspect
I'll either have to idle the motor just enough to keep the air purged, or
run an external pump. I'm thinking a simple diaphragm type fuel pump
running anytime the brake is on (or it's not in "P") but the motor isn't
turning, might be enough. Luckily, on the Turbo 350 there is a pressure
test port that leads straight to the main pressure line in there. I'm
hoping that pumping fluid from the pan into it will keep the passages filled
so that the trans can engage without significant delay as the motor starts
to spin up. Then I'll have to deal with all the issues concerning keeping
it in the correct RPM range. Luckily there is a wealth of information and
hot rod parts available for the Turbo 350, and it's a pretty simple trans,
no electronic controls on the old ones.
If it was just my ride, I'd go clutchless manual, but I think it'd be cool
to be able to toss the keys to anyone with a reasonable chance that they can
get in and drive with no instruction. Neither the wife or stepson even
drive stick. And I really want to avoid the torque converter because of the
slippage losses, the rotational mass losses and the weight.
TCI has a setup for a Powerglide that actually uses a clutch pedal to engage
first from a stop. Circle trackers use them to get rolling without a
converter, but I wanted a lower first gear than the Powerglide has, and
preferably no clutch pedal.
If I crash and burn and can't get it right, it'll be easy enough to throw in
a manual instead.
Thanks,
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Major" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: Motor, controller & battery recommendations?
Hi Marty,
Sounds like a neat project. Are you sure you know
what you're doing with the automatic trans? We did
one years ago without the torque converter and had to
do a lot of extra work because there was an internal
pump you lose without the idling motor. We went to an
external pump, but it took a lot of trial and error to
get it right. Once there it was sweet. Another way
used by EcoElectric was to keep the torque converter
and idle the electric motor, which I never found
appealing. Manual trans may be easier. But I am not
a transmission expert, but learned more than I ever
wanted to know about automatics.
Jeff
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> You might want to talk with Keith Vansickle who is building
> a high speed variant of the BugE. Search the list for "lightning
> bug" from April 23 for more details.
I remember his post from when I first read it -- I'm excited to follow
his progress, but after researching more, I really thing the Bug-E is
too light for my purposes, and is somewhere between a recumbent bicycle
and a scooter. I'm looking a few notches more developed, for the space
between a motorcycle and a small car.
Thanks, though! I think the Bug-E is a GREAT concept and will fit a
niche for many.
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Damon and All,
I remember my one and only ride like it was yesterday, and I think it was
about five years ago. Wayland was headed over to a motel to snag someone
that had just flown in, so I went along for the ride. It's amazing how fast
Wayland can get a car going between stop signs, and narrowly avoid getting
hit by the electric light-rail cars. I walked away being thankful that I
was still alive, and to go check my drawers in the bathroom to see if I had
soiled myself! The car is a work of art, but it's hard to keep the seats
clean...
BB
>From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:00:09 +0000
>
>OK admit it. If you have ever ridden in John Waylands Blue Meanie you
>walked away from the experience wishing that car was yours didn't you?
<snip>
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--- Begin Message ---
ah thanks, they are light, and there's the holy grail of regen ;>)
Jeff Major wrote:
John,
Not the normal way to plot motor performance. Usually
torque is the X axis and RPM, Amps, Power and
Efficiency are all plotted together with a multiple Y
axis.
As for comment regarding limited-range RPM window, it
looks like these were tests at battery voltage with
loads up to about 200 amps. The motor would run at
the same torque per amp at any speed lower than that
when your controller reduces battery voltage down to a
lower motor voltage. The RPM shown there would be the
maximum for that particular battery voltage.
Jeff
--- john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
there are some other graphs at
http://www.lemcoltd.com/lem_200.htm
I too am puzzled by them.
JF
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rob & Amy:
That video ROCKED! Cool choice of music and donor car too.
Rich A.
_________________________________________________________________
Mortgage refinance is Hot. *Terms. Get a 5.375%* fix rate. Check savings
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> You could use the TriMagnum idea .. using a motorcycle back end
> and a car front end, welded together and braced.
I have a donor motorcycle, that I could use, but I'm pretty jazzed to
make this thing an EV. I definitely like the weight dynamics of a
battery pack between the front wheels, as well.
> > LEMCO's light weight looks good, but all of their graphs just
> > show limited-range RPM windows. http://www.lemcoltd.com/lem_170.htm
> > Will this work full-range in EV use?
> Good question. If you look at the torque curves that evparts supplies
> for the big one, it -does- seem to have the juice to get you there
> though, upwards of 16hp. This one:
> http://www.evparts.com/shopping/products/mt5115/008-200-60V.gif
EXCELLENT LINK -- dunno how I missed those charts, as I have been
crawling all over the EVparts site. Looks like they just the 200-sized
motor, which is about a 6.7" more expensive still beyond the 170 I was
looking at specs for... Oof!
> That's @ 60v, the top end. And it looks to be able to go to 4000RPM
> no problem.. which is plenty of RPM for highway speeds.
(response trimmed into another thread, to follow)
> Just tailor the tire, gears and chain to match your expectations :)
I get that I can dial it in for highway (as noted, I have fiddled with
all of my ICEs in this regard)... the trick is getting reasonable
response from a stop, as well. I'd like to match or better the speed of
traffic around me -- anything less impedes traffic, and I hate it when
others do that, so I can't plan to do it myself.
Randii
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My smart car has this switch and it's documented in the owners manual
saying when to use it for what load you car carrying ... but it is
disabled. Seems that the DOT in Canada does not recognize the function
so I can't have it :-(. Be interesting to see if it's on the 2008
models in the US when they arrive next year.
Lawrence
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
However, I would go one step further and suggest that the reason glare
from
headlights (of all types) has become such an annoyance is that nowadays,
so
many vehicles have the option, built-in, to adjust the angle of their
headlamps at the flick of a switch.
I've seen this on cars in Europe. However, I've never seen it in a car in
the US. As much as we are gadget geeks over here, the only reason I can
think of for there absence is that it's not legal.
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> That's @ 60v, the top end. And it looks to be able to go to 4000RPM
> no problem.. which is plenty of RPM for highway speeds.
That begs another question -- what are HP/tq requirements for reasonable
acceleration to highway speeds, and maintenance thereof?
I know how to work the math for this in my ICEs:
* my 302 Amigo does quite well with 275hp and 300ft-lbs of torque (peak
near 5K rpm).
* my Dodge does well, differently, with 180hp and 500ft-lb (peak near 2K
rpm).
* our Subaru is different, as well, cooking up 135 hp and 140ft-lb (peak
a bit over 4K rpm).
...but they have very clear curves, and require very different driving
styles. Especially the Dodge, with the turbo and a box of big gears that
won't be hurried. All have dramatically different final drive ratios, as
well, and I have tuned each system to make the best of their respective
mechanicals (smaller turbo, larger tires, different ring and pinions,
etc.).
I'm frankly not sure how to equate any of this to EV (flattish) power
curves or a one-speed transmission -- going with chain drive allows me
to pick cogs to change the performance, but getting that first ration
guess is daunting. Power depends less on RPMs and more on the current
you can pull out of the batteries, as well as what you can squeeze
through the controller. How do I make that first best guess -- just work
from the anecdotal reports of others?
Other electric motor curves:
*
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/products/mt2112/MT2112ColdPerformance.PD
F
* http://www.evparts.com/shopping/products/mt2113/mt2113voltagecurve.PDF
A friend has advised that I just go ahead and install a transmission
from the start!
Randii
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> You might want to take a good look at what some of the motorcycles are
> doing, as you are in their class as much as anything.
Agreed. Is there a different list-serv for that, as well?
> My motorcycle has a 6.7 inch ADC with a sprocket and chain, so a
single
> gear ratio. It accelerates and pulls hills reasonably well (about the
> same as most small cars) and has a top speed of 60 MPH using an
Alltrax
> 48 volt controller with 54 volts worth of NiCad BB600s.
I appreciate hearing that it can be done... I envy your battery pack,
BTW!
> So if I were you and concerned about cost I would be looking at
picking
> up a 6.7" ADC motor or equivialent and an Alltrax 72 volt 450A
controller.
Thanks or that data point! What gear ratio are you running?
> However, 6 D34 Optimas are not going to give you 30 miles worth of
range,
> so you will need to either go to the larger size Optimas, run more
then
> a single string of the D34s, or go with a higher capacity flooded
battery.
I'll have to check my math again on that -- that may have been from my
charge-at-work estimate, an option that has change availability with
turnover on building management resources.
> BTW, I ... have a spare 6.7 inch ADC motor ... and 48 volt 275 amp
Curtis controller
Will mail off list.
Randii
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--- Begin Message ---
Roland posted an excellent write-up on this very thing:
http://www.mail-archive.com/ev@listproc.sjsu.edu/msg07520.html
Google, EVDL, and Roland rocks!
Now to start juggling values... Excel spreadsheet, here I come yet
again...
Anecdotal data still very welcome!
Randii
-----Original Message-----
From: Randy Burleson
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 3:07 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Gear Ratio for a One-Speed (was RE: Light EV,
controller/motor?)
> That's @ 60v, the top end. And it looks to be able to go to 4000RPM
> no problem.. which is plenty of RPM for highway speeds.
That begs another question -- what are HP/tq requirements for reasonable
acceleration to highway speeds, and maintenance thereof?
I know how to work the math for this in my ICEs:
* my 302 Amigo does quite well with 275hp and 300ft-lbs of torque (peak
near 5K rpm).
* my Dodge does well, differently, with 180hp and 500ft-lb (peak near 2K
rpm).
* our Subaru is different, as well, cooking up 135 hp and 140ft-lb (peak
a bit over 4K rpm).
...but they have very clear curves, and require very different driving
styles. Especially the Dodge, with the turbo and a box of big gears that
won't be hurried. All have dramatically different final drive ratios, as
well, and I have tuned each system to make the best of their respective
mechanicals (smaller turbo, larger tires, different ring and pinions,
etc.).
I'm frankly not sure how to equate any of this to EV (flattish) power
curves or a one-speed transmission -- going with chain drive allows me
to pick cogs to change the performance, but getting that first ration
guess is daunting. Power depends less on RPMs and more on the current
you can pull out of the batteries, as well as what you can squeeze
through the controller. How do I make that first best guess -- just work
from the anecdotal reports of others?
Other electric motor curves:
*
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/products/mt2112/MT2112ColdPerformance.PD
F
* http://www.evparts.com/shopping/products/mt2113/mt2113voltagecurve.PDF
A friend has advised that I just go ahead and install a transmission
from the start!
Randii
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Using a single speed transmission requires a larger motor and controller
than a multispeed. High performance also requires more power.
You can probably get away with a 6.7", but with 1200 lbs (don't forget the
pilot) it will possibly overheat on hills.
I'd recommend an 8" and a 1000 amp controller.
The Sparrows were/are a bit bigger than what you are describing and
originally had 12 YTs, with an 8" motor and an 800 amp controller. They
frequently had problems with the controller.
With your smaller trike, you might be able to get away with an 800 amp,
but I don't think anyone is making that size right now. Plus you'd have
less power than the Sparrow since you have less voltage.
> I'm planning a small, simple 3-wheeler EV (half-on or smaller, see
> below), and I'm at a point where I need to plan budget, and that means
> picking a motor (series) and controller -- I'm pretty committed to AGMs
> for high output and low weight. FWIW, I'm willing to pay a fair price
> for motor and controller -- no need to dumpster-dive, but no need to
> over-spend. My usage is basic commute, 30 miles round trip --
> highway-capable preferred but not absolutely necessary. The plan is to
> slide under 1000 pounds (<400 chassis, <100 body, <400 batteries, <150
> motor, and precious little else), fantasy target is actually 800.
>
> Eight 12V Optima D34 Yellow Top batteries total ~352 pounds. I'm
> planning 96V, but I might be able to get by with a 72-volt pack. I know
> that Jerry made the E-Woody work with a 48V pack, and I'm shooting for a
> similar weight, but I imagine that I'm more aggressive with the
> accelerator. (http://www.1st-optima-batteries.com/ tells me that YT D34s
> are 12V, 55 AH, 120 reserve minutes; 10x6.8x7.8" <Height includes 1"
> terminals>; 43.8 lbs; $174.95 each, includes shipping) Low weight trumps
> cost per watt, but I'll miss the ability to equalize. I plan to use a
> bank of individal chargers to keep from gassing about a grand worth of
> AGMs.
>
> A potential point of complication is that I'm going to start with
> chain-drive and no transmission... I'm not sure if I can get the
> acceleration and range of speed I desire, but I will try.
>
> I'm open to suggestions on appropriate motors (and vendors!)... I'm
> thinking a 6.7" should scoot fairly well in such a lightweight rig, but
> have a hard time breaking my bigger-is-better hot-rod habit, and am also
> looking at 8" motors. I'm entirely baffled as to how big a controller I
> need... I've studied the EV Album and there's IMHO a lack of consensus
> for what is needed and what would just be nice to have.
>
> Comments?
>
> Randii
>
>
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> LEMCO's light weight looks good, but all of their graphs just show
>> limited-range RPM windows. http://www.lemcoltd.com/lem_170.htm Will this
>> work full-range in EV use?
>
> Good question. If you look at the torque curves that evparts supplies
> for the big one, it -does- seem to have the juice to get you there
> though, upwards of 16hp. This one:
>
> http://www.evparts.com/shopping/products/mt5115/008-200-60V.gif
>
> That's @ 60v, the top end. And it looks to be able to go to 4000RPM
> no problem.. which is plenty of RPM for highway speeds. Just tailor
> the tire, gears and chain to match your expectations :) Its rated for
> 100A continous, and looking at the various Torque graphs, that means
> you should be able to maintain highway speeds no problem, given light
> weight and aerodynamic forms.
I disagree.
The Lemco/Lynch motors are nice, but not powerfull enough for this
application. At least not a single motor.
The continuous power is only about 6hp, which is probably not enough to
maintain 60-70 mph on a vehicle with no doors (i.e. poor aerodynamics),
even with doors it would be questionable.
Secondly, the ammount of time it can produce the max power (16hp?) is
measured in seconds.
Try climbing a long hill at any speed and poof goes the motor. With
single speed ratio's the amount of current needed for hills is virtually
the same at 5mph as it is at 30 mph, so tying to climb slower doesn't
help.
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> You could use the TriMagnum idea .. using a motorcycle back end
>> and a car front end, welded together and braced.
> I have a donor motorcycle, that I could use, but I'm pretty jazzed to
> make this thing an EV. I definitely like the weight dynamics of a
> battery pack between the front wheels, as well.
Don't get the weight to far forward, or you'll faceplant when you hit the
brakes.
Ideally you want 30-40% of the weight (including pilot/passenger) on the
rear wheel.
--
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--- Begin Message ---
Have you looked into aquarium pumps? I didn't think they were that
expensive.
> Hey all,
> This is only relevant because its about motors. I have water cooled my
> computer, and now the weak link in my system is the pump. Yes I could
> buy one specifically for this application but im looking at atleast 40
> bucks. What I want to do is make a brushless disk "pancake motor"
> similar to a windmill generator. The disk would be make of plexi glass
> inside a water tight plexi glass compartment. It would have n impeller
> on it. The coils would actuallt be outside the water chamber so there
> would be no holes or water tight bearings needed. I suppose this would
> be an induction motor, which means it can only be run on AC right? Can a
> brushless disk motor be run on DC?
> Thanks,
> Paul
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello:
Just a short question for you folks: We had a power outage today due to a
bad thunderstorm. The emergency generator went on and it would have been
no problem, but the UPS systems for our computers went crazy.
The generator is rated at 25KW, the two UPS systems are small two computer
units. Voltage measured at the outlet was 122-124 V at 59.8-61.0 Hz.
However, the UPSs didn't accept that as 'good' voltages and went into
battery mode. For a few minutes in between, they switched to 'normal'
mode but sure enough, after just 2 or 3 minutes, they went back to 'beep'
.. 'beep' .. 'beep'.
As soon as power was restored and the generator shut itself off, both UPSs
were happily sitching back to 'all ok'.
I am puzzled as everything else worked just fine, TV, other electronics,
only the UPSs had a problem. Any ideas?
Michaela
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--- Begin Message ---
It's easy. Assuming the motor produces enough power for your application,
pick your highest desired speed and gear the motor such that it hits max
RPM on or slightly above this speed.
This will give you the maximum available wheel torque without over revving
the motor.
If this is not enough torque to climb hills in your area, you need a
bigger controller and possibly motor.
>> That's @ 60v, the top end. And it looks to be able to go to 4000RPM
>> no problem.. which is plenty of RPM for highway speeds.
> That begs another question -- what are HP/tq requirements for reasonable
> acceleration to highway speeds, and maintenance thereof?
>
> I know how to work the math for this in my ICEs:
> * my 302 Amigo does quite well with 275hp and 300ft-lbs of torque (peak
> near 5K rpm).
> * my Dodge does well, differently, with 180hp and 500ft-lb (peak near 2K
> rpm).
> * our Subaru is different, as well, cooking up 135 hp and 140ft-lb (peak
> a bit over 4K rpm).
> ...but they have very clear curves, and require very different driving
> styles. Especially the Dodge, with the turbo and a box of big gears that
> won't be hurried. All have dramatically different final drive ratios, as
> well, and I have tuned each system to make the best of their respective
> mechanicals (smaller turbo, larger tires, different ring and pinions,
> etc.).
>
> I'm frankly not sure how to equate any of this to EV (flattish) power
> curves or a one-speed transmission -- going with chain drive allows me
> to pick cogs to change the performance, but getting that first ration
> guess is daunting. Power depends less on RPMs and more on the current
> you can pull out of the batteries, as well as what you can squeeze
> through the controller. How do I make that first best guess -- just work
> from the anecdotal reports of others?
>
> Other electric motor curves:
> *
> http://www.evparts.com/shopping/products/mt2112/MT2112ColdPerformance.PD
> F
> * http://www.evparts.com/shopping/products/mt2113/mt2113voltagecurve.PDF
>
> A friend has advised that I just go ahead and install a transmission
> from the start!
>
> Randii
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
