EV Digest 6739
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Linux EDA Design Software
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EVLN(Captain Awesome gets into his electric car for social good)
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Jay Leno no friend of electric cars.
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: AC Questions - Just got my donor pickup!!!-
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: FW: Jay Leno no friend of electric cars.
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: FW: Jinxed! ( Now - Belktronix)
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: FW: Jinxed! ( Now - Belktronix)
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Jay Leno no friend of electric cars.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Jay Leno no friend of electric cars.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Jay Leno no friend of electric cars
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Jay Leno no friend of electric cars.
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) EV on a dyno in CA?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) 1-Wire Expertise
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Jay Leno no friend of electric cars.
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV on a dyno in CA?
by Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Linux EDA Design Software
by John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Jay Leno no friend of electric cars.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Jay Leno's quote - how it really happened
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) RE: DD, Cog Calcs, aero
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: 1-Wire Expertise
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: EV on a dyno in CA?
by John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: DD, Cog Calcs, aero
by John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: 1-Wire Expertise and PIC
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: article: ZAP (OTC BB: ZAAP) Reinvents the Wheel with Advanced Electric
Wheel Motor Technology Partner
by Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Automatic or Manual?
by Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Yes PCB is part of the gEDA suite. There is a tutorial link that shows
you how to use them together. In true unix philosopy it is a collection
of small programs instead of a big integrated suite.
I have tried a lot of them but it is when you get into a serious
project that you have to use the component libraries or make your own.
I have been looking at kicad recently and I have been pleasently
surprised (Never much of a KDE person but it seems most KDE software is
a step ahead, maybe because of kDevelop)
This is getting dangerously off-topic so email me off list if you find
something new or do a big project through a board house with open source
software.
For me there is a strong analog between building an electric car despite
what detroit says and the philosophy behind open source software.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Those are Gizmo's, what the Bug-E people used to build down in Eugene. One
of our listers (Travis Raybold) bought one last year and brought it to one
of the drag racing events at PIR. It got a lot of looks sitting in the pits
by the charging White Zombie.
damon
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EVLN(Captain Awesome gets into his electric car for social
good)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 03:56:59 -0400
Those are mighty funky looking cars.
http://tinyurl.com/32pwvv
http://tinyurl.com/2p5sdj
http://tinyurl.com/3xjypc
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
I read the article while flying last week. The quote is at the end of the
article. Thomas Edison passes a note to Henry Ford at the dinner table. "The
Electric car is dead"
I would like to know the true context, was it because Edison drove the
electric car to dinner and ran it dead to needing a charge? Another
question, did Popular mechanics edit the article and in doing so inject into
Leno's article how they feel about electric cars?
Mark Grasser
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: Jay Leno no friend of electric cars.
My father-in-law mailed a copy of the magazine to Heidi and me in an
effort
to convince us that the electric vehicle is truly dead. Heidi and I keep
telling him about our adventures with our NmG, Tweety. He doesn't appear
to
believe our experiences. Jay Leno helped support and deepen his
ignorance!
Ken
In a message dated 5/4/2007 1:15:34 PM Central Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
It's from an article that Jay wrote for this month's Popular Mechanics.
Bill Dennis
GWMobile wrote:
Where did you get the jay leno quote and what quote do you have on his
steam car?
************************************** See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What I intend on doing is getting dimensions of the motor(s) I intend
to use and mocking them up in foam core and cardboard to see if they
fit. Cheap and easy! I'm doing the same with patterns of batteries..
not the whole battery, but the LxW bits cut out of cardboard to check
layout ideas.
All -before- I buy anything ;) Mockups in cardboard and foam core are
cheap insurance.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The resident NASA scientist in our EAA group did a paper on my nicad
truck. He figured that regular use not exceeding 50% soc will give the
pack a life of 50k miles.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5/4/07, David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 4 May 2007 at 9:14, Tim Humphrey wrote:
> But there is another EV'r building "less than Zilla"
> controllers and associated EV electronics.
>
> www.evcraft.com
>
> I have not dealt with him so cannot give a "rating" of craftmanship, just
> pointing out another option.
A friend of mine bought one of their chargers a few years ago. Here's what
he says about his experience :
"They have sent me 3 so far and the best one ran for about 10 seconds! I
have to pay for AIR MAIL back each time - $50.00. They absolutely will NOT
send a refund and there is no apparent way to get my $$ back."
As they say, your mileage may vary.
Thanks for the heads up David. I have to admit.. their stuff looked
pretty flimsy. I would not have done business with them just based on
what I saw on their web site.
Bryan at Belktronix seems more serious, and a maker of good things. At
least, as I said, his DC/DC converters.
He says he won't currently sell bits apart from the kits.. it is too
costly for him at the moment since he hand assembles and buys
everything on demand. I did mention to him that nobody is selling an
inexpensive BMS for AGM/GEL batteries though, and that he'd have a
captive market, but I think he is concerned that he'd be a one trick
pony and wants to sell whole kits.
FYI for a 144v system, his quote is $2100.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh found this, which made me more comfortable:
http://myworld.ebay.com/belktronix/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The quotes come from Popular Mechanics. He has a monthly column. LR.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: Jay Leno no friend of electric cars.
> Where did you get the jay leno quote and what quote do you have on his
> steam car?
>
> On Fri, 4 May 2007 9:28 am, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > I'm not too bullish on electric cars as the way of the future. Modern
> > electric cars go roughly 100 miles on a charge, about the same as my
> > Baker;
> > so I don't see much progress there. I think electricity is a great
> > power
> > source for a car. But the problem is, how do you get it?
> >
> > Thomas Edison invented the alkaline battery. My Baker still has some
> > original alkaline batteries. These have lead plates and use acid; we
> > wash
> > them out and refill them regularly and I'll use them indefinitely. But
> > even
> > Edison realized the future of the automobile was elsewhere. Legend has
> > it
> > that back in 1896, at a dinner party, he passed a note to his friend
> > Henry
> > Ford. Essentially it said, "The electric car is dead."
> >
> > How prophetic was that?
> >
> >
> > I can't believe Jay Leno (the ultimate car geek) compares a Baker
> > Electric
> > to a Rav4 EV. They may have the same range but not the same speed or
> > convienences. I'm sure he's taken a ride in a Tzero or Tesla. He at
> > times
> > acts like a spokesman for GM & then crows the 0 emmissions standard of
> > his
> > steam car. He is so contrary sometimes I just don't understand his
> > agenda.
> > Lawrence Rhodes....
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
> and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well although it's hard to understand Leno at times. He knows his cars and
if anyone can keep one going it's him. If he is doing this to the batteries
as maintanance there must be some reason. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: Jay Leno no friend of electric cars.
> On 4 May 2007 at 9:22, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> > My Baker still has some
> > original alkaline batteries. These have lead plates and use acid; we
> > wash them out and refill them regularly and I'll use them indefinitely.
>
> I'm assuming you're quoting Leno in this post - nowhere do you have
> quotation marks or indicate where the quotation comes from. But whomever
is
> speaking, the above statement pretty well destroys his credibility.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
> the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
.
Posted by: "H.L.George" [EMAIL PROTECTED] evguy02
Date: Fri May 4, 2007 11:20 am ((PDT))
Leno is tight with GM. GM actually built him a one off car the he designed.
Lew George
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The article in question:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/jay_leno_garage/4215940.html
Seeing as how Jays garage website says "Presented by:
General Motors Corporation", at some point in time, he will be
promoting the GM Volt most likely(after they brief him on it).
Contact Jay here about expanding his EV collection:
http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/community/askjay_shell.shtml
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone in CA want to take their EV and put it on this dyno so we can
see some hp/tq curve's of various motors, etc?
http://www.techshop.ws/equipment.html
That place also looks like it's well equipped to do conversions there
for anyone who doesn't have space/tools.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anybody out there have experience with 1-wire devices? Maxim makes a
nice 1-wire chip for monitoring voltage and temperature of a single
Li-ion cell. I've been looking at the possibility of putting one of
those chips on each of my tracction pack cells and monitoring them with
a Basic Stamp. In conversations with the Maxim's vendor support,
however, they told me that this plan wouldn't work, because the chips
would all need a common ground, which wouldn't happen if each chip were
on a different cell in a series string of cells. So I was wondering if
the following would work:
1) Basic Stamp is powered via an isolated 9V supply off of the 12V system
2) Each Li-ion cell has chip on it, chip VSS tied to cell negative and
chip VDD tied to cell positive
3) When the Stamp wants to read the cell's value, it energizes a DPDT
relay that ties the chip's VSS to the Stamp's VSS, and the chip's DQ
line to a Stamp pin, with a 4.7K pull-up resistor to the Stamp's +5V
4) The Stamp then sends the appropriate commands to the chip to read
the cell values
5) The Stamp deenergizes the relay and moves on to the next cell,
repeating the process
Will that work? I realize that this would tie the Stamp to successive
portions of the traction pack. But since the stamp is isolated, with no
attachment to the chassis, I'm hoping this won't be a problem.
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the link, and all I can say is what a bunch of thin skinned
wussies inhabit this list. All Jay said was that he doesn't think electric
cars are the cars of the future because he hasn't seen much progress between
his 100 year old electrics and what has been built since then, plus he got a
bit of chemistry wrong... sheesh
Everyone get's enthusiastic about building their own 100 year old contactor
controller and laments the fact that they can't easily find documentation of
ancient BEV technology and then get their panties in a wad over this? It
just doesn't add up.
Raise your hand if your EV can go 100 miles per charge like Jay's can, even
at the slower speeds I'm sure his travels at, then explain to me what he
said that is untrue.
I personally think the future for EVs is a bit more optimistic then Jay
seems to imply as there is always a tantalizing new battery right around the
corner. Still, that is just my opinion which is not necessarily any more
valid then Mr. Leno's opinion.
BTW - that steam car of his sounds fascinating. Perhaps we should be
looking at steam as the cars of the future :-)
Overall I found the article very enjoyable.
damon
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Jay Leno no friend of electric cars.
Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 11:26:39 -0500
The article in question:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/jay_leno_garage/4215940.html
Seeing as how Jays garage website says "Presented by:
General Motors Corporation", at some point in time, he will be
promoting the GM Volt most likely(after they brief him on it).
Contact Jay here about expanding his EV collection:
http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/community/askjay_shell.shtml
_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office
Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow- I can't believe I never heard about this, it's close to SF as
well. They have many tools an EVer could use, even plastic welding.
Thanks Ryan.
On May 5, 2007, at 9:45 AM, Ryan Stotts wrote:
Anyone in CA want to take their EV and put it on this dyno so we can
see some hp/tq curve's of various motors, etc?
http://www.techshop.ws/equipment.html
That place also looks like it's well equipped to do conversions there
for anyone who doesn't have space/tools.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
thanks
Jeff Shanab wrote:
Yes PCB is part of the gEDA suite. There is a tutorial link that shows
you how to use them together. In true unix philosopy it is a collection
of small programs instead of a big integrated suite.
I have tried a lot of them but it is when you get into a serious
project that you have to use the component libraries or make your own.
I have been looking at kicad recently and I have been pleasently
surprised (Never much of a KDE person but it seems most KDE software is
a step ahead, maybe because of kDevelop)
use KDE more than gnome myself, just habit though, I use apps from both
groups at the same time. I downloaded kicad yesterday.
This is getting dangerously off-topic so email me off list if you find
something new or do a big project through a board house with open source
software.
well I would have thought tools for designing EV components would be
smack on target, but whatever. ;>)
Now if people would post up readable, editable, re-usable drawings it
would really help the neophytes get started. Maybe someday a small EV
industry can join SEMA, make some real money, and spread the technology
wider.
For me there is a strong analog between building an electric car despite
what detroit says and the philosophy behind open source software.
Yes me too. The difference is that major software often comes from the
open source world, and major hardware mostly comes from the industrial
world due to issues of replication. OTOH I don't look to Detroit for any
innovation, the Indians and Chinese are the big wildcards now IMO.
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From the Arcane List.
Posted by: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" [EMAIL PROTECTED] chasgould
Date: Fri May 4, 2007 4:59 pm ((PDT))
First of all, he is an enthusiast, secondly, he is entitled to his own
opinion, third of all, he is a historian, and fourth of all, he is not too
far off
from the accuracy of his statements.
That is the accepted opinion but it is wrong. If you ever drove a Rav4 & a
Baker you will see he is way off. While the Baker has a little less range
at 100 miles compared the Rav4 125 mile range the Rav is a real freeway
capable vehicle with an 85mph top speed. So the info below is wrong. The
Baker has a 35mph top speed.
Up until very recently, electrics had
not come very far in 100 years, with ranges, and speeds comparable to his
Baker
Electric. The incredible progress of the Tesla and other recent electric
cars is nothing short of amazing, but the last round of electrics before
the GM
EV1 and other more conventional iterations were quite crude and had
embarrassing performance.
Still better than a Baker. If you drove many of these electric vehicles
like a Baker you would get 100 miles range. It's the speed that eats
electric range.
And he is absolutely correct that electrics do tend to pass the cost, and
pollution onto another source such as the manufacture, and disposal of the
batteries and the electricity generating plants necessary to recharge the
batteries.
Dead wrong. Even using nasty coal the electric is cleaner & less expensive
to run than gasoline. Lead Acid batteries are the most recycled material in
the world. The lead is valuable & a core charge is levied if you don't
bring back a battey when you buy a new one in many places. Don't forget
that electrics are very efficient & use very little energy to go the same
distance as ICE vehicles.
Baker was right way back at the turn of the century, and now 100 years
later, the electric shows a whole lot more promise and potential, but it
ain't
there yet,
It's there. Mighty forces are against it. Chevron/Texaco has the NiMH
patent & is squashing large format batteries. Panasonic is one of the few
that can manufacture them & that is only for Rav4 replacements.
and it certainly ain't affordable yet,
For instance my electric scooter is extremely cost effective not to mention
my electric car which cost me 10k 5 years ago & is still running on the
orginal batteries.
and it doesn't really solve
the pollution issues if you count the related power generation and battery
production.
I charge using solar power & grid power at night which is clean Hetch Hetchy
power. As mentioned before batteries are highly recycled. Off peak charging
can handle millions of electric cars. However if everyone charged during
the day there might be problems on hot days when airconditioning is used.
Don't forget it is easier to control one power source for pollution rather
that millions of ICE cars.
It is amazing and worthwhile to pursue, but Jay Leno is not a hater of
electrics, just a realist.
A realist with his backward uninformed opinion.
I would love to buy a Tesla, but I can't afford one,
and the EV1 isn't available to me, and there are very few other electrics
that I
am attracted to at this moment.
Can't argue that too much but Tesla, Ebox by AC Propulsion & Phoenix Motors
with their crew cab SUT are very attractive but the prices start at 45k. A
bit too rich for me.
Also, the Hybrids are not an electric, they are a combination electric and
internal combustion engine, and I think that the Hybrid hype is also
overrated.
It seems curious to pay a $5,000 premium to buy a "Green" car, especially
when the actual mileage in regular use is substantially lower than the
claims
(which can be achieved if you really strive for an eggshell approach to
driving, which is not the way we, as American's drive)
Amen to that & my Honda Civic VX (93 to 95) gets over 50 mpg & qualifies for
the Hybrid HOV sticker. It is ULEV. (to late for anyone with one. The 85
thousand stickers are all gone)
. I know that you can squeeze
considerable mileage out of these hybrids, but you have to compare apples
to
apples. If you drive a conventional car as gingery as that, you can also
beat the EPA figures for the conventional car too!.
Just my two cents worth.
Most of all, when a very visible celebrity like Jay Leno promotes our
hobby,
and the preservation of all types of old cars, I won't slam him, just
because
he has an opinion. Everyone in this group is certainly opinionated about
their own preferences and dislikes. Jay has the right to his as well!
Charles
I agree that Jay is entilted to his opinion but when he is wrong I'll say
something about it. I like the guy too. A good source for info on electric
cars is the EVDL(Electric vehicle discussion list) An interesting
documentary is "Who Killed the Electric Car" It knocks all the accepted
myths about electric cars. Lawrence Rhodes.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Grasser wrote:
I read the article while flying last week. The quote is at the end of the
article. Thomas Edison passes a note to Henry Ford at the dinner table. "The
Electric car is dead"
I would like to know the true context, was it because Edison drove the
electric car to dinner and ran it dead to needing a charge? Another
question, did Popular mechanics edit the article and in doing so inject into
Leno's article how they feel about electric cars?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The quote is way, way out of context. Something vaguely similar did happen
at dinner and it did involve writing on a menu card, but like so many quotes
used to express a bias, it is WAY off.
Here's what really happened:
Henry Ford was unknown at the time outside of Detroit. He had been working
as an engineer at the Edison Illuminating Company. His main job responsibility
was to keep the steam engines running that turned the large dynamos of the
time. He was very well thought of within the Detroit company, but not a
manager. He began his experiments with the automobile while at Edison
Illuminating,
and built his Quadricycle while employed there.
Shortly after building the Quadricycle, Ford was invited to attend a
convention in New York City for electrical professionals. Alexander Dow, head
of
Edison Illuminating in Detroit had invited Ford. While there, a special dinner
was held in Manhattan Beach for the top managers in the Edison Company. Ford
was not slated to be there, as he was not a manager, but somehow Ford did
manage to get a last minute seat far down the table from Thomas Edison.
Among the topics discussed at dinner were the problems associated with
charging storage batteries for electric cars. During a break in the
conversation
Alexander Dow said "that young fellow there has built a gas powered car", and
pointed to Ford. All attention turned to Ford as he was asked to explain how
he go the car up and running. Edison, hard of hearing, asked Ford to come up
to the head of the table and began to ask no end of questions. He was
especially interested in how an electric spark was used to ignite the gas in
the
cylinder, so Ford used the back of a menu card to draw his system.
When Ford was finished explaining his designs, Edison was extraordinarily
impressed. Edison himself had been thinking of ways to make cars more useable,
and had investigated gasoline powered vehicles. He (Edison) brought his fist
down on the table with a bang and said:
"Young man, that's the thing; you have it. Keep at it! Electric cars must
keep near to power stations. The storage battery is too heavy. Steam cars won't
do it either, for they have to carry a boiler and fire. Your car is self
contained - it carries its own power plant - no fire, no boiler, no smoke, no
steam. You have the thing. Keep at it."
Later Edison asked Ford to accompany him on the train back to New York City
and they forged the beginning of a lifetime friendship.
Ford later said that Edison's encouragement gave him the impetus to move
forward with his "invention". Many around the Detroit area had been scoffing
and
laughing at Ford for his "contraption"; but when Edison, the worlds best
known and most prolific inventor encouraged Ford to keep going, it inspired
him
like no other event in his life.
Before anyone disparages Jay Leno too rapidly, we need to remember that he
had an EV-1 and at the time spoke very favorably of his experiences with the
car. If I recall, he tried to purchase the car from GM.
More recently Jay collaborated with GM on the design and building of the
"Eco-Jet", a bio-diesel fueled turbine powered concept car, and may feel that
biofuels have more of a future than electicity.
Jay Leno has a great love for the automobile and has done much to record and
restore information that would otherwise have been lost to posterity. As
batteries improve and he sees the advantages in electric transportation, he'll
likely be among the first to champion the idea once again, of the electric car.
Lawson Huntley
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > Jerry, it is my as-yet-vaporware trike, although the
> > 6.7" ADC is winging its way here. FWIW, I hope to get
> > my 3-wheeler under that weight even with my carcass in it
> I hope so. But you have plenty to cut.
Well, not yet. Vapor and imagination weigh surprisingly little. :)
I have been making fat estimates, but I'll start dialing those back with
actual reality this summer. It is simple for me to work in steel, and 2
pounds per foot of .120-wall one-and-three-quarter tubing just doesn't
seem that much, especially with car bumpers at neck-level around me.
> Try reading/joining [EMAIL PROTECTED] archive from the beginning,
> it's not too long but has some great stuff for those building from
> scratch for several better methods that weigh 1/2-1/3 your
projections.
I'll do some reading, but I'm pretty set on steel for the first
go-round, just because I am familiar with it, and find it easy to work
with and quite forgiving. Skins and flat panels will be fiberglass,
sometimes over phone.
> Looking through it again I see you have 12sq' of frontal area
> which will be rather hard to do, more like 14-15sq' minimum,
> probably 16-17 so increase your top speed power needs by 20+%.
> If you use AGM's instead of floodeds lope off another 15% range
> in light vehicles like this.
Will implement in the next go-round with the calculator.
> On our size built as EV's, few ever use trannies, no real reason
> with a series motor or 2. My Ewoody on just 36vdc and a 100 amp
> 36vdc GE Citi car motor did 60 mph with terrible aero reasonably
> fast so you will be able to keep up with traffic and beat them to
> at least 40 mph normally.
Excellent -- I find that pretty reassuring, as I don't want to hold up
traffic. What's the hold up at 40mph -- is it the squared math of air
resistance, or just the one-speed tranny winding out of range?
> Now if you want to race you really need 2 motors to get both
> great low end torque and good top end speed. Maybe sell your K91
> and get 2 ES-21's.
I need to test with my own kiester first, but that may be in the
eventual cards... we'll see.
> > Any guess-timates on how long it will take to get there, Jerry?
> No, I'll say when I do it though. I don't do EV calculators well.
> I do know how fast my earlier EV went and it will be faster.
Fair enough. Calculators and desktop dyno numbers only get you so far.
> Sounds so heavy!!
I don't think it will be, Jerry, but I will certainly post up my
results. I'm omitting doors, windows, and such, and opting for a steel
frame to simplify fabrication. Moving a bracket on steel is simple --
just burn it off and burn it back on, with minimal impact to the frame
member.
> > 1.) front end will likely resemble a bathtub Porsche
> The front is great, the windshield back makes it about
> 40-45cd! also much larger than 12sq'FA.
I hope to improve on those numbers.
> > 2.) 2f1r tadpole/tail-dragger profile should help with this
> Not if you are a convertible or open top.
Tonneau should assist with this -- using a shorty windscreen like the
speedster can't hurt, either, but certainly there will be unavoidable
turbulence.
> > 4.) front wheelwells will again borrow from the Porsche, rear
> > will be increasingly exposed, much like a sport bike
> The rear behind the body is in it's shadow so not a problem.
Cool -- I worried this might be an issue.
> Your fat rear tire is aero wise.
Handy, even though I just like the way it looks. :D
> How's this, use the Porsche or a Karman Ghia front end FG piece,
> cheap and readily available
I have already considered that, to the point of calling a few vendors
for prices on tubs. I may still go this direction.
> Bug suspension
In the plan for the front.
>...a well raked windshield with a 914 style roof that pops up to
> get out?
Interesting. You may have just solved the ingress/egress challenge I
anticipated with eventually retrofitting a rain enclosure. Thanks!
> Cut the frame to length to take the rear suspension, and build
> your rollcage inside that.
I can't visualize this, but will look at a buddy's VW floorpan
(mid-restoration) for ideas. The parts for this sort of hacking would
certainly be pretty cheap.
> Or check out the Sea Lion EV, other 3wheelers on the 3wheel car
> websites for inspiration. There are several 3wh car lists too
> like vortex3wheeler.
I wasn't able to find anything on the "Sea Lion" -- does anyone have a
link?
I clicked through the Vortex site a few years ago... I've been chewing
off-and-on on the 3-wheeler idea since the late 90's. 3-wheelers.com is
a regular stop. I have never been able to warm up to how long the
tail-section is on Vortex or other Riley designs that leverage a
motorcycle as their basis. We'll see if mine is any less odd-looking.
> Don't forget the spoilers on the sides too!!
I'll have to see what that looks like. A slight profile change may work,
but I can't visualize side spoilers otherwise.
> The exposed wheel shouldn't be a problem other than it's frontal area.
Since it will be in the 'wind shadow' of the main body of the car, I was
hoping it wouldn't matter much.
Randii
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Technically, yes that would work. However, it's pointless.
A PIC itself can measure voltage & temp for less $$$ than that 1-wire
device and far less than an array of DPDT relays! The PIC can have a
serial port output (consisting of a single wire) that works just fine
through a cheap optoisolator. If you're clever, the system can even
share a single bus.
Danny
Bill Dennis wrote:
Anybody out there have experience with 1-wire devices? Maxim makes a
nice 1-wire chip for monitoring voltage and temperature of a single
Li-ion cell. I've been looking at the possibility of putting one of
those chips on each of my tracction pack cells and monitoring them
with a Basic Stamp. In conversations with the Maxim's vendor support,
however, they told me that this plan wouldn't work, because the chips
would all need a common ground, which wouldn't happen if each chip
were on a different cell in a series string of cells. So I was
wondering if the following would work:
1) Basic Stamp is powered via an isolated 9V supply off of the 12V
system
2) Each Li-ion cell has chip on it, chip VSS tied to cell negative
and chip VDD tied to cell positive
3) When the Stamp wants to read the cell's value, it energizes a
DPDT relay that ties the chip's VSS to the Stamp's VSS, and the chip's
DQ line to a Stamp pin, with a 4.7K pull-up resistor to the Stamp's +5V
4) The Stamp then sends the appropriate commands to the chip to read
the cell values
5) The Stamp deenergizes the relay and moves on to the next cell,
repeating the process
Will that work? I realize that this would tie the Stamp to successive
portions of the traction pack. But since the stamp is isolated, with
no attachment to the chassis, I'm hoping this won't be a problem.
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
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I have heard good things about their classes as well.
Unfortunately they are 7 hours from me. Maybe we could open a Central CA
Coast branch?
John
Mark Dutko wrote:
Wow- I can't believe I never heard about this, it's close to SF as
well. They have many tools an EVer could use, even plastic welding.
Thanks Ryan.
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Hey stick to DOM tubing as you say... The Real Experts over on the MC
chassis list where weight really matters and stress too, point out
frequently that trellis steel, ala Ducati, is just as light as Aluminum
twin-spar and as strong, or stronger. They also pooh-pooh Chrome-moly as
having no real-world strength benefits -=they say ' any crash that bends
the DOM steel, will destroy the bike anyway'
The sand rails use fabric to make skimpy little body panels. It looks
pretty good, perhaps you've seen them? I am going to try it, as its
ultra-light and cheap.
I am right with you on the steel tube bumper on the sides. Thats exactly
what I intended too.
PS we are going to look at a Tuk Tuk this afternoon in the Valley. Will
post up about it on my blog probably and let you know.
Isn't Jerry a nut? How he thinks he can sell something for less than the
cost of materials....
JF
Randy Burleson wrote:
Jerry, it is my as-yet-vaporware trike, although the
6.7" ADC is winging its way here. FWIW, I hope to get
my 3-wheeler under that weight even with my carcass in it
I hope so. But you have plenty to cut.
Well, not yet. Vapor and imagination weigh surprisingly little. :)
I have been making fat estimates, but I'll start dialing those back with
actual reality this summer. It is simple for me to work in steel, and 2
pounds per foot of .120-wall one-and-three-quarter tubing just doesn't
seem that much, especially with car bumpers at neck-level around me.
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I just got a brush motor control running on Friday
using a 12F863 which costs less than a dollar (I think
the non EEPROM version is 69 cents.) This is a 20A
control intended for Ametek-Prestolite PM brush motors
mainly used in transit for defroster blower and pumps.
This MCU also has SCI communication capabilities.
I plan on trying out this control on an electric bike
and will probably boost the current limit up to 40Amps
with a 36Vdc battery pack. The projected cost of this
drive in volume will probably be under $10 for OEM.
Rod
--- Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Technically, yes that would work. However, it's
> pointless.
>
> A PIC itself can measure voltage & temp for less $$$
> than that 1-wire
> device and far less than an array of DPDT relays!
> The PIC can have a
> serial port output (consisting of a single wire)
> that works just fine
> through a cheap optoisolator. If you're clever, the
> system can even
> share a single bus.
>
> Danny
>
> Bill Dennis wrote:
>
> > Anybody out there have experience with 1-wire
> devices? Maxim makes a
> > nice 1-wire chip for monitoring voltage and
> temperature of a single
> > Li-ion cell. I've been looking at the
> possibility of putting one of
> > those chips on each of my tracction pack cells and
> monitoring them
> > with a Basic Stamp. In conversations with the
> Maxim's vendor support,
> > however, they told me that this plan wouldn't
> work, because the chips
> > would all need a common ground, which wouldn't
> happen if each chip
> > were on a different cell in a series string of
> cells. So I was
> > wondering if the following would work:
> >
> > 1) Basic Stamp is powered via an isolated 9V
> supply off of the 12V
> > system
> > 2) Each Li-ion cell has chip on it, chip VSS tied
> to cell negative
> > and chip VDD tied to cell positive
> > 3) When the Stamp wants to read the cell's value,
> it energizes a
> > DPDT relay that ties the chip's VSS to the Stamp's
> VSS, and the chip's
> > DQ line to a Stamp pin, with a 4.7K pull-up
> resistor to the Stamp's +5V
> > 4) The Stamp then sends the appropriate commands
> to the chip to read
> > the cell values
> > 5) The Stamp deenergizes the relay and moves on
> to the next cell,
> > repeating the process
> >
> > Will that work? I realize that this would tie the
> Stamp to successive
> > portions of the traction pack. But since the
> stamp is isolated, with
> > no attachment to the chassis, I'm hoping this
> won't be a problem.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Bill Dennis
> >
>
>
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On May 3, 2007, at 12:35 AM, Roderick Wilde wrote:
It would be best if you read what you are posting , before posting.
This is at the end of this post as well as all ZAP generated
propaganda:
"Forward-looking statements in this release are made pursuant to
the "safe harbor" provisions of the Private Securities Litigation
Reform Act of 1995. Investors are cautioned that such forward-
looking statements involve risks and uncertainties, including,
without limitation, continued acceptance of the Company's products,
increased levels of competition for the Company, new products and
technological changes, the Company's dependence upon third-party
suppliers, intellectual property rights, and other risks detailed
from time to time in the Company's periodic reports filed with the
Securities and Exchange Commission."
Your naivety could make you eligible to join Hitler's Youth Core.
Oh, sorry, wrong decade and this statement could be construed as
political, but in this case it isn't. This post has to do with due
diligence. Learn to do the research before posting to a world wide
site. The information is all out there for anyone who can read.
Most of us have been reading ZAP press releases for years and most
of us know who these folks are.
Ouch Rod, please be clear about your feelings <g>.
I don't know how long Paul W. has been a member of this list, but
only the old timers really understand how disappointing ZAP has been
over the years.
Paul
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--- Begin Message ---
On May 3, 2007, at 8:05 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
My wife would drive this on occasion. I'm not that good at driving
without
a clutch and am guessing she wouldn't be thrilled with the idea
either. So
if this (or any other manual transmission) car turns out to be the
eventual
conversion platform it will have to have a clutch.
Driving an EV without a clutch is nothing like driving an ICE without
a clutch. An EV doesn't idle (most don't, and one without a clutch
certainly won't.) You drive an EV without a clutch like a manual with
a clutch except for a few details. First, you don't push in a clutch
to shift, just release the throttle. Second, when shifting it takes a
bit more time for it to drop into the next higher gear. Third, you
can just come to a stop and take off without releasing a clutch, most
EVers with a clutch do this too. Fourth, you shift a lot less with an
EV.
Some transmissions and transaxles take clutchless operation better
than others. The ones that take it worse can have either slower that
average shifting and/or wear issues. My wife drives my EV buggy (air
cooled Beetle transaxle.) She has no issue with the missing clutch.
Second gear is the gear of choice from 0 to 45 mph and third gear
works will from 30 to 70 mph.
Paul "neon" G.
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