EV Digest 6740
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EVLN(Captain Awesome gets into his electric car for social good)
by Jerry McIntire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EVLN(Captain Awesome gets into his electric car for social good)
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: 1-Wire Expertise
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: DD, Cog Calcs, aero
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Jay Leno no friend of electric cars.
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Jay Leno no friend of electric cars.
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: DD, Cog Calcs, aero
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV on a dyno in CA?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Automatic or Manual?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: DD, Cog Calcs, aero
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Jay Leno no friend of electric cars.
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Jay Leno no friend of electric cars.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: DD, Cog Calcs, aero
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Jay Leno no friend of electric cars.
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Jay Leno's quote - how it really happened
by "George Swartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV on a dyno in CA?
by John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: DD, Cog Calcs, aero
by John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: 1-Wire Expertise
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: 1-Wire Expertise
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Jay Leno no friend of electric cars.
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) AGNS takes 96 volt motorcycle record
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) 1994 Toyota 2WD conversion
by "Adrian DeLeon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Those are Gizmos, aren't they? How'd they get so many?
Jerry
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry McIntire wrote:
Those are Gizmos, aren't they? How'd they get so many?
$12,000 each, buy as many as you want:
http://www.nevco-ev.com/gizmo-order.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, that's the problem--I'm not clever. Without the relays, I'm not
sure exactly what you're describing. How would the Stamp switch to and
query each cell's voltage and temp?
Bill Dennis
Danny Miller wrote:
Technically, yes that would work. However, it's pointless.
A PIC itself can measure voltage & temp for less $$$ than that 1-wire
device and far less than an array of DPDT relays! The PIC can have a
serial port output (consisting of a single wire) that works just fine
through a cheap optoisolator. If you're clever, the system can even
share a single bus.
Danny
Bill Dennis wrote:
Anybody out there have experience with 1-wire devices? Maxim makes a
nice 1-wire chip for monitoring voltage and temperature of a single
Li-ion cell. I've been looking at the possibility of putting one of
those chips on each of my tracction pack cells and monitoring them
with a Basic Stamp. In conversations with the Maxim's vendor
support, however, they told me that this plan wouldn't work, because
the chips would all need a common ground, which wouldn't happen if
each chip were on a different cell in a series string of cells. So I
was wondering if the following would work:
1) Basic Stamp is powered via an isolated 9V supply off of the 12V
system
2) Each Li-ion cell has chip on it, chip VSS tied to cell negative
and chip VDD tied to cell positive
3) When the Stamp wants to read the cell's value, it energizes a
DPDT relay that ties the chip's VSS to the Stamp's VSS, and the
chip's DQ line to a Stamp pin, with a 4.7K pull-up resistor to the
Stamp's +5V
4) The Stamp then sends the appropriate commands to the chip to read
the cell values
5) The Stamp deenergizes the relay and moves on to the next cell,
repeating the process
Will that work? I realize that this would tie the Stamp to
successive portions of the traction pack. But since the stamp is
isolated, with no attachment to the chassis, I'm hoping this won't be
a problem.
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: DD, Cog Calcs, aero
Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 12:04:12 -0700
>Hey stick to DOM tubing as you say... The Real Experts
>over on the MC chassis list where weight really matters
>and stress too, point out frequently that trellis steel,
>ala Ducati, is just as light as Aluminum twin-spar and as
>strong, or stronger. They also pooh-pooh Chrome-moly as
>having no real-world strength benefits -=they say ' any
>crash that bends the DOM steel, will destroy the bike
>anyway'
If they really wanted strength at low weight, they
would go composites! But since they are unwilling to learn
how to use it, they stick to heavier metal. So much for
their expertise!! Notice all F-1's have been composite for
yrs and they survive 200mph crashes usually.
My all composite body/chassis weighs 1/2 what a
similar strength steel body/chassis does. This allows me to
either go farther, faster with a smaller battery pack, EV
drive or some of each.
250+ lbs is quite a savings just in the body/chassis.
It saves me 250lbs in batteries plus another 50lbs in
motors, ect and why I can sell for a low cost and make very
good money. The parts for the Freedom EV only come to about
$5k. The rest is labor, overhead or profit. And I can
garrentee the profit will be very good as everything has
already been priced out.
>
>The sand rails use fabric to make skimpy little body
>panels. It looks pretty good, perhaps you've seen them? I
>am going to try it, as its ultra-light and cheap.
It's probably aircraft covering available from online
aircraft supply houses. But unless a well designed under
frame, isn't very aero.
I'm well versed in all materials, I only go for
composites as it's the best in most cases.
>
>I am right with you on the steel tube bumper on the sides.
>Thats exactly what I intended too.
Better is a composite rollcage built into the skin so
in a crash, you don't get hurt hitting the metal rollcage
which because they are round, gives hard point loading as
your body hits it. Vs a composite smooth, flat way that
spreads the load over a larger area of your body reducing
injuries.
>
>PS we are going to look at a Tuk Tuk this afternoon in the
>Valley. Will post up about it on my blog probably and let
>you know.
>
>Isn't Jerry a nut? How he thinks he can sell something for
>less than the cost of materials....
Please explain? I'm too cheap to do that.
Jerry Dycus
>
>JF
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jay Leno has seen the majority of electric prototypes
being offered now. He was on a video at Hybrid
Technologies with their vehicles (before it was
removed because he was not affiliated with them). He
has had his head under the hood of the RAV-4. He was
mentioned by Steve Lough as wanting to own an EV-1 (I
believe it was the Sam Dunsky interview). He has
ridden the Prius (and jokes about it being too slow
per a blip on the Tonight Show). Through all of this
he is not convinced. He is just gonna be one of these
guys that is gonna be a hard sell about the
improvements that have occurred. It will happen all
the time with the majority of gearheads and the
automotive industry. Eventually, they will accept
some of the benefits when electric transport becomes
mainstream. The best thing to do is Just accept that
as his view and move on.
Trying to show outrage and suggest his involvement in
conspiracies (as others have mentioned in different
posts) shows how quickly some on this list can go from
praising him for driving a Baker to denouncing him.
--- Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >From the Arcane List.
>
> Posted by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> chasgould
> Date: Fri May 4, 2007 4:59 pm ((PDT))
>
> First of all, he is an enthusiast, secondly, he is
> entitled to his own
> opinion, third of all, he is a historian, and fourth
> of all, he is not too
> far off
> from the accuracy of his statements.
>
> That is the accepted opinion but it is wrong. If
> you ever drove a Rav4 & a
> Baker you will see he is way off. While the Baker
> has a little less range
> at 100 miles compared the Rav4 125 mile range the
> Rav is a real freeway
> capable vehicle with an 85mph top speed. So the
> info below is wrong. The
> Baker has a 35mph top speed.
>
> Up until very recently, electrics had
> not come very far in 100 years, with ranges, and
> speeds comparable to his
> Baker
> Electric. The incredible progress of the Tesla and
> other recent electric
> cars is nothing short of amazing, but the last
> round of electrics before
> the GM
> EV1 and other more conventional iterations were
> quite crude and had
> embarrassing performance.
>
> Still better than a Baker. If you drove many of
> these electric vehicles
> like a Baker you would get 100 miles range. It's
> the speed that eats
> electric range.
>
> And he is absolutely correct that electrics do tend
> to pass the cost, and
> pollution onto another source such as the
> manufacture, and disposal of the
> batteries and the electricity generating plants
> necessary to recharge the
> batteries.
>
> Dead wrong. Even using nasty coal the electric is
> cleaner & less expensive
> to run than gasoline. Lead Acid batteries are the
> most recycled material in
> the world. The lead is valuable & a core charge is
> levied if you don't
> bring back a battey when you buy a new one in many
> places. Don't forget
> that electrics are very efficient & use very little
> energy to go the same
> distance as ICE vehicles.
>
>
> Baker was right way back at the turn of the century,
> and now 100 years
> later, the electric shows a whole lot more promise
> and potential, but it
> ain't
> there yet,
>
> It's there. Mighty forces are against it.
> Chevron/Texaco has the NiMH
> patent & is squashing large format batteries.
> Panasonic is one of the few
> that can manufacture them & that is only for Rav4
> replacements.
>
> and it certainly ain't affordable yet,
>
> For instance my electric scooter is extremely cost
> effective not to mention
> my electric car which cost me 10k 5 years ago & is
> still running on the
> orginal batteries.
>
>
> and it doesn't really solve
> the pollution issues if you count the related power
> generation and battery
> production.
>
> I charge using solar power & grid power at night
> which is clean Hetch Hetchy
> power. As mentioned before batteries are highly
> recycled. Off peak charging
> can handle millions of electric cars. However if
> everyone charged during
> the day there might be problems on hot days when
> airconditioning is used.
> Don't forget it is easier to control one power
> source for pollution rather
> that millions of ICE cars.
>
> It is amazing and worthwhile to pursue, but Jay Leno
> is not a hater of
> electrics, just a realist.
>
> A realist with his backward uninformed opinion.
>
>
> I would love to buy a Tesla, but I can't afford one,
> and the EV1 isn't available to me, and there are
> very few other electrics
> that I
> am attracted to at this moment.
>
> Can't argue that too much but Tesla, Ebox by AC
> Propulsion & Phoenix Motors
> with their crew cab SUT are very attractive but the
> prices start at 45k. A
> bit too rich for me.
>
> Also, the Hybrids are not an electric, they are a
> combination electric and
> internal combustion engine, and I think that the
> Hybrid hype is also
> overrated.
> It seems curious to pay a $5,000 premium to buy a
> "Green" car, especially
> when the actual mileage in regular use is
> substantially lower than the
> claims
> (which can be achieved if you really strive for an
> eggshell approach to
> driving, which is not the way we, as American's
> drive)
>
> Amen to that & my Honda Civic VX (93 to 95) gets
> over 50 mpg & qualifies for
> the Hybrid HOV sticker. It is ULEV. (to late for
> anyone with one. The 85
> thousand stickers are all gone)
>
> . I know that you can squeeze
> considerable mileage out of these hybrids, but you
> have to compare apples
> to
> apples. If you drive a conventional car as gingery
> as that, you can also
> beat the EPA figures for the conventional car too!.
> Just my two cents worth.
> Most of all, when a very visible celebrity like Jay
> Leno promotes our
> hobby,
> and the preservation of all types of old cars, I
> won't slam him, just
> because
> he has an opinion. Everyone in this group is
> certainly opinionated about
> their own preferences and dislikes. Jay has the
> right to his as well!
> Charles
>
> I agree that Jay is entilted to his opinion but when
> he is wrong I'll say
> something about it. I like the guy too. A good
> source for info on electric
> cars is the EVDL(Electric vehicle discussion list)
> An interesting
> documentary is "Who Killed the Electric Car" It
> knocks all the accepted
> myths about electric cars. Lawrence Rhodes.......
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe Jay doesn't get behind the wheel for a drive of less than a couple
hundred miles very often, or he drives mostly to play exhaust note tunes
with the gearbox on the open road, so today's EV's wouldn't sound promising.
Most days I drive between 10 and 25 miles in traffic, and the idea of
sitting in traffic in a hot rod lost it's appeal after a few years of
autocross racing, so EV's seem like a good idea. Without knowing his
driving habits, it's hard to figure out where his viewpoint is coming from.
I think his opinion that electrics haven't come very far is reasonable, if
you're comparing to ICE development. But to me that means the development
is still ahead of us, not all played out. The only thing I was disappointed
with was that he stated his opinion of the future of EV's based on the
current state of EV's, which I think is pretty shortsighted.
Marty
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Randii and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: RE: DD, Cog Calcs, aero
Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 11:42:29 -0700
>> > Jerry, it is my as-yet-vaporware trike, although the
>> > 6.7" ADC is winging its way here. FWIW, I hope to get
>> > my 3-wheeler under that weight even with my carcass in
>> it I hope so. But you have plenty to cut.
>Well, not yet. Vapor and imagination weigh surprisingly
>little. :) I have been making fat estimates, but I'll
>start dialing those back with actual reality this summer.
>It is simple for me to work in steel, and 2 pounds per foot
>of .120-wall one-and-three-quarter tubing just doesn't seem
>that much, especially with car bumpers at neck-level around
>me.
How many ft of tubing will it take? How much would
the body, floor weigh?
>> On our size built as EV's, few ever use trannies, no real
>> reason with a series motor or 2. My Ewoody on just 36vdc
>> and a 100 amp 36vdc GE Citi car motor did 60 mph with
>> terrible aero reasonably fast so you will be able to
>> keep up with traffic and beat them to at least 40 mph
>normally. Excellent -- I find that pretty reassuring, as I
>don't want to hold up traffic. What's the hold up at 40mph
>-- is it the squared math of air resistance, or just the
>one-speed tranny winding out of range?
Air drag starts to get ahold of it just as the
motor's power curve starts dropping so acceleration drops
with it's single speed. I used 1/2 field weakening to move
the torque curve up the rpm range so go to 60 mph but my use
was in town so 45 mph was fine for it with more range. It
would also go to 60 mph with a 48vdc pack instead of 36vdc
and field weakening with better acceleration.
>> Sounds so heavy!!
>I don't think it will be, Jerry, but I will certainly post
>up my results. I'm omitting doors, windows, and such, and
>opting for a steel frame to simplify fabrication. Moving a
>bracket on steel is simple -- just burn it off and burn it
>back on, with minimal impact to the frame member.
You can find out the weight by listing all the parts,
tubing, ect and adding the weight up!! VW bug front ends
weigh 165lbs complete without tires/rims. You need height
adjuster and helper air or coilover springs if you want to
carry much battery weight on it.
>
>> > 1.) front end will likely resemble a bathtub Porsche
>> The front is great, the windshield back makes it about
>> 40-45cd! also much larger than 12sq'FA.
>I hope to improve on those numbers.
>
>> > 2.) 2f1r tadpole/tail-dragger profile should help with
>> this Not if you are a convertible or open top.
>Tonneau should assist with this -- using a shorty
>windscreen like the speedster can't hurt, either, but
>certainly there will be unavoidable turbulence.
That turbulance is THE problem, taking you from a
say .25cd to a .40-.45cd. If you want range at speed, you
need an aero roof or a hump behind you to gather the air
back together and feed it cleanly aft. It's the purpose of
the original head backrests on old racing cars, bigger than
the helmet if worn, rounded front corners and gently curving
inward to bring the air together aft of the car.
>> Bug suspension
>In the plan for the front.
>
>>...a well raked windshield with a 914 style roof that pops
>> up to get out?
>Interesting. You may have just solved the ingress/egress
>challenge I anticipated with eventually retrofitting a rain
>enclosure. Thanks!
No problem. If you want range at speed, you don't
have much choice.
>
>> Cut the frame to length to take the rear suspension, and
>> build your rollcage inside that.
>I can't visualize this, but will look at a buddy's VW
>floorpan (mid-restoration) for ideas. The parts for this
>sort of hacking would certainly be pretty cheap.
A bug frame is just a center torque tube from the
front suspension to the rear motor mount/axle. The rest just
bolts to it.
>
>> Or check out the Sea Lion EV, other 3wheelers on the
>> 3wheel car websites for inspiration. There are several
>> 3wh car lists too like vortex3wheeler.
>I wasn't able to find anything on the "Sea Lion" -- does
>anyone have a link?
I couldn't find it.
>
>I clicked through the Vortex site a few years ago... I've
>been chewing off-and-on on the 3-wheeler idea since the
>late 90's. 3-wheelers.com is a regular stop. I have never
>been able to warm up to how long the tail-section is on
>Vortex or other Riley designs that leverage a motorcycle as
>their basis. We'll see if mine is any less odd-looking.
The Vortex3wheeler list is for all 3wheelers both
ICE and EV versions. The Vortex was originally an EV and
available in both versions.
>
>> Don't forget the spoilers on the sides too!!
>I'll have to see what that looks like. A slight profile
>change may work, but I can't visualize side spoilers
>otherwise.
Just enough to break the airstream away from curving
in too far, more than 13-15deg, from breaking into
dirverging vortex's. 1/8" high is fine. You could even use
tape or the clear polyseamseal caulk ridge made between the
forefinger and thumb. Look up vortex generators too as they
can do the same job amoung others.
>
>> The exposed wheel shouldn't be a problem other than it's
>frontal area.
Since it will be in the 'wind shadow' of the
>main body of the car, I was hoping it wouldn't matter much.
The tire part above the body bottom is behind the body
but below the body is in the windstream as it parts of the
rear suspension. A fairing in front of it can cut it's drag
about 1/2 and I'm thinking of doing it on mine and maybe in
front of the front wheels too.
Jerry Dycus
>
>Randii
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Fisher, Where in central Ca? I just asked if they had one close to
fresno and I checked the "willing to manage" box.
I worked in a moldmaking shop for years. I am almost suffering withdrawal.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I couldn't of said it better, neon.
One way to bring down the rpms for a faster shift would be to put the
alternator on the aux shaft and with a load accross the alternator,
enguage the field with a switch on the clutch pedal.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> fast so you will be able to keep up with traffic and beat them to
>> at least 40 mph normally.
> Excellent -- I find that pretty reassuring, as I don't want to hold up
> traffic. What's the hold up at 40mph -- is it the squared math of air
> resistance, or just the one-speed tranny winding out of range?
Probably a combination of both. Aerodynamic drag goes up at the square of
your speed. Double your speed and you need 4 times as much power. At
around 20-30 mph aero drag becomes your predominant loss. With a single
speed transmission, you'll probably come out of current limit somewhere
around 40 mph, at that point your maximum available power starts dropping
off. So you'll be needing more and more power at a point where you have
less and less available.
>> Sounds so heavy!!
> I don't think it will be, Jerry, but I will certainly post up my
> results. I'm omitting doors, windows, and such, and opting for a steel
> frame to simplify fabrication. Moving a bracket on steel is simple --
> just burn it off and burn it back on, with minimal impact to the frame
> member.
>
Have you read the book "How to Build a Cheap Sports Car"? It's available
from Amazon.com, or you can order it from your local book store.
This car uses a frame made from square steel tubing and the design is
light enough for the author to hold the complete frame above his head. It
also details how to build your own suspension components (Upper and lower
A frames)
I would suspect that you could modify the design for a three wheeler frame
that weighs less than 100 lbs, perhaps only 50-60 lbs.
Also, I haven't been following this thread, but have you look at R.Q.
Riley's website? www.rqriley.com
The XR-3 hybrid looks pretty cool, but one of the best parts of the site
is the free tips on how to build fiberglass-over-foam
http://www.rqriley.com/frp-foam.htm
It's heavier than molded fiberglass, but very strong and fairly easy to
build, especially if you keep the shapes simple. If you use epoxy resin,
instead of polyester, you can get away with regular styro-foam instead of
the urethan foam, but epoxy resin is harder to work with. If you go this
way, you might try building some small project to practice on.
Something I've read about, but haven't tried yet, is to use styrofoam and
paint it with latex paint. The latex paint protect the foam from the
polyester resin. If you layer the fiber glass thick enough, you can then
remove the foam (disolving it or whatever) and get results similar to
molding. You could probably leave the foam in, but I don't know how
strong the foam-latex-polyester bond is.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
WHat Jay is talking about has more to do with public opinion than it does
with nuts & bolts facts.
THe major difference (historically) between the Baker and the Rav4 EV, is
that back when the Baker was first built, 35 MPH was fast and 100 miles
was considered long range. The RAV 4 is not considered particularly fast
and 125 miles is now considered "short range". SO from a public opinion
point of view, EVs have gone BACKWARDS.
People don't buy cars based on what they need, they buy them based ion
what they WANT. THe fact is, the current US population does not WAHT a
car with the perceived limitation of an EV.
Until something changes to either improve the EVs limitations, or make
people willing to accept those limitations, EVs will NOT sell in numbers
sufficiently high to encourage mass production.
You might not like them, but Jays statements are essentially correct.
> That is the accepted opinion but it is wrong. If you ever drove a Rav4 &
> a
> Baker you will see he is way off. While the Baker has a little less range
> at 100 miles compared the Rav4 125 mile range the Rav is a real freeway
> capable vehicle with an 85mph top speed. So the info below is wrong. The
> Baker has a 35mph top speed.
>
> Up until very recently, electrics had
> not come very far in 100 years, with ranges, and speeds comparable to his
> Baker
> Electric. The incredible progress of the Tesla and other recent electric
> cars is nothing short of amazing, but the last round of electrics before
> the GM
> EV1 and other more conventional iterations were quite crude and had
> embarrassing performance.
>
> Still better than a Baker. If you drove many of these electric vehicles
> like a Baker you would get 100 miles range. It's the speed that eats
> electric range.
>
> And he is absolutely correct that electrics do tend to pass the cost, and
> pollution onto another source such as the manufacture, and disposal of the
> batteries and the electricity generating plants necessary to recharge the
> batteries.
>
> Dead wrong. Even using nasty coal the electric is cleaner & less
> expensive
> to run than gasoline. Lead Acid batteries are the most recycled material
> in
> the world. The lead is valuable & a core charge is levied if you don't
> bring back a battey when you buy a new one in many places. Don't forget
> that electrics are very efficient & use very little energy to go the same
> distance as ICE vehicles.
>
>
> Baker was right way back at the turn of the century, and now 100 years
> later, the electric shows a whole lot more promise and potential, but it
> ain't
> there yet,
>
> It's there. Mighty forces are against it. Chevron/Texaco has the NiMH
> patent & is squashing large format batteries. Panasonic is one of the few
> that can manufacture them & that is only for Rav4 replacements.
>
> and it certainly ain't affordable yet,
>
> For instance my electric scooter is extremely cost effective not to
> mention
> my electric car which cost me 10k 5 years ago & is still running on the
> orginal batteries.
>
>
> and it doesn't really solve
> the pollution issues if you count the related power generation and battery
> production.
>
> I charge using solar power & grid power at night which is clean Hetch
> Hetchy
> power. As mentioned before batteries are highly recycled. Off peak
> charging
> can handle millions of electric cars. However if everyone charged during
> the day there might be problems on hot days when airconditioning is used.
> Don't forget it is easier to control one power source for pollution rather
> that millions of ICE cars.
>
> It is amazing and worthwhile to pursue, but Jay Leno is not a hater of
> electrics, just a realist.
>
> A realist with his backward uninformed opinion.
>
>
> I would love to buy a Tesla, but I can't afford one,
> and the EV1 isn't available to me, and there are very few other electrics
> that I
> am attracted to at this moment.
>
> Can't argue that too much but Tesla, Ebox by AC Propulsion & Phoenix
> Motors
> with their crew cab SUT are very attractive but the prices start at 45k.
> A
> bit too rich for me.
>
> Also, the Hybrids are not an electric, they are a combination electric and
> internal combustion engine, and I think that the Hybrid hype is also
> overrated.
> It seems curious to pay a $5,000 premium to buy a "Green" car, especially
> when the actual mileage in regular use is substantially lower than the
> claims
> (which can be achieved if you really strive for an eggshell approach to
> driving, which is not the way we, as American's drive)
>
> Amen to that & my Honda Civic VX (93 to 95) gets over 50 mpg & qualifies
> for
> the Hybrid HOV sticker. It is ULEV. (to late for anyone with one. The 85
> thousand stickers are all gone)
>
> . I know that you can squeeze
> considerable mileage out of these hybrids, but you have to compare apples
> to
> apples. If you drive a conventional car as gingery as that, you can also
> beat the EPA figures for the conventional car too!.
> Just my two cents worth.
> Most of all, when a very visible celebrity like Jay Leno promotes our
> hobby,
> and the preservation of all types of old cars, I won't slam him, just
> because
> he has an opinion. Everyone in this group is certainly opinionated about
> their own preferences and dislikes. Jay has the right to his as well!
> Charles
>
> I agree that Jay is entilted to his opinion but when he is wrong I'll say
> something about it. I like the guy too. A good source for info on
> electric
> cars is the EVDL(Electric vehicle discussion list) An interesting
> documentary is "Who Killed the Electric Car" It knocks all the accepted
> myths about electric cars. Lawrence Rhodes.......
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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Lawrence> Chevron/Texaco has the NiMH patent & is squashing large format
Lawrence> batteries.
Just curious, how much longer before the key patents they hold expire?
Skip
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The whole business of building with molded fiberglass over foam and
etc is extremely well covered in boat building books.. much much
better than the small article by RQRiley. If you want to research how
to do cored foam structures that can take stress, look at those
techniques. You're looking for books on how to do 'one-off' boats in
fiberglass that are not wood core or cold molded. They'll detail how
to setup an inexpensive vacuum pump, what materials to use and not to
use, techniques, safety, and so on.
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2014
On 5/5/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Lawrence> Chevron/Texaco has the NiMH patent & is squashing large format
Lawrence> batteries.
Just curious, how much longer before the key patents they hold expire?
Skip
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Lawson, I used to know Douglas Dow, who I believe was Alexander Dow's son.
Douglas was an electric car enthusiast. He was advocating AC and hybrid
drive in the 1970's Gone now but not forgotten.
On Sat, 5 May 2007 13:25:12 EDT, OrthoH2 wrote
> Mark Grasser wrote:
>
> I read the article while flying last week. The quote is at the end
> of the article. Thomas Edison passes a note to Henry Ford at the
> dinner table. "The Electric car is dead"
>
> I would like to know the true context, was it because Edison drove
> the electric car to dinner and ran it dead to needing a charge?
> Another question, did Popular mechanics edit the article and in
> doing so inject into Leno's article how they feel about electric cars?
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The quote is way, way out of context. Something vaguely similar did
> happen at dinner and it did involve writing on a menu card, but
> like so many quotes used to express a bias, it is WAY off.
>
> Here's what really happened:
>
> Henry Ford was unknown at the time outside of Detroit. He had been
> working as an engineer at the Edison Illuminating Company. His main
> job responsibility was to keep the steam engines running that
> turned the large dynamos of the time. He was very well thought of
> within the Detroit company, but not a manager. He began his
> experiments with the automobile while at Edison Illuminating, and
> built his Quadricycle while employed there.
>
> Shortly after building the Quadricycle, Ford was invited to attend
> a convention in New York City for electrical professionals.
> Alexander Dow, head of Edison Illuminating in Detroit had invited
> Ford. While there, a special dinner was held in Manhattan Beach for
> the top managers in the Edison Company. Ford was not slated to be
> there, as he was not a manager, but somehow Ford did manage to get
> a last minute seat far down the table from Thomas Edison.
>
> Among the topics discussed at dinner were the problems associated
> with charging storage batteries for electric cars. During a break
> in the conversation Alexander Dow said "that young fellow there has
> built a gas powered car", and pointed to Ford. All attention turned
> to Ford as he was asked to explain how he go the car up and
> running. Edison, hard of hearing, asked Ford to come up to the head
> of the table and began to ask no end of questions. He was
> especially interested in how an electric spark was used to ignite
> the gas in the cylinder, so Ford used the back of a menu card to
> draw his system.
>
> When Ford was finished explaining his designs, Edison was
> extraordinarily impressed. Edison himself had been thinking of ways
> to make cars more useable, and had investigated gasoline powered
> vehicles. He (Edison) brought his fist down on the table with a
> bang and said:
>
> "Young man, that's the thing; you have it. Keep at it! Electric cars
> must keep near to power stations. The storage battery is too heavy.
> Steam cars won't do it either, for they have to carry a boiler and
> fire. Your car is self contained - it carries its own power plant -
> no fire, no boiler, no smoke, no steam. You have the thing. Keep at
> it."
>
> Later Edison asked Ford to accompany him on the train back to New
> York City and they forged the beginning of a lifetime friendship.
>
> Ford later said that Edison's encouragement gave him the impetus to
> move forward with his "invention". Many around the Detroit area had
> been scoffing and laughing at Ford for his "contraption"; but when
> Edison, the worlds best known and most prolific inventor encouraged
> Ford to keep going, it inspired him like no other event in his life.
>
> Before anyone disparages Jay Leno too rapidly, we need to remember
> that he had an EV-1 and at the time spoke very favorably of his
> experiences with the car. If I recall, he tried to purchase the car
> from GM.
>
> More recently Jay collaborated with GM on the design and building of
> the "Eco-Jet", a bio-diesel fueled turbine powered concept car, and
> may feel that biofuels have more of a future than electicity.
>
> Jay Leno has a great love for the automobile and has done much to
> record and restore information that would otherwise have been lost
> to posterity. As batteries improve and he sees the advantages in
> electric transportation, he'll likely be among the first to
> champion the idea once again, of the electric car.
>
> Lawson Huntley
>
> ************************************** See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.
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I live in Santa Barbara. Been talking about shared workshop space for
years, never done anything about it.
In this town it's probably hopeless due to cost of space, but its fun to
dream. It would work great down in the Valley though, not that that
would help me.
JF
Jeff Shanab wrote:
John Fisher, Where in central Ca? I just asked if they had one close to
fresno and I checked the "willing to manage" box.
I worked in a moldmaking shop for years. I am almost suffering withdrawal.
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<red-faced > sorry Jerry, that was supposed to be a private mail. I mean
I do think you are nuts, its true, but I also think its great that you
are actually building something. Its also true that I am still an
armchair green-car driver at this point. So I apologize for being, well,
an ass.
And I don't want to argue about your particular project publicly or
privately, 'cause if I am wrong, its a waste of your time, and if I am
right you'll figure it out and change your plans to suit soon enough.
sorry
JF
jerryd wrote:
Isn't Jerry a nut? How he thinks he can sell something for
less than the cost of materials....
Please explain? I'm too cheap to do that.
Jerry Dycus
JF
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Bill Dennis wrote:
Maxim 1-wire chip... Maxim's vendor support told me the chips
all need a common ground, which wouldn't happen if each chip were
on a different cell in a series string of cells.
That is correct. "One-wire" is a misnomer -- they are really 2-wire
chips (i.e. the same as every other bidirectional serial communication
network).
So I was wondering if the following would work:
1) Basic Stamp powered via isolated 9V supply off the 12V system.
2) Each Li-ion cell has chip on it, chip VSS tied to cell negative
and chip VDD tied to cell positive.
3) to read a cell's value, energize a DPDT relay that ties the
chip's VSS to the Stamp's VSS, and the chip's DQ line to a Stamp
pin, with a 4.7K pull-up resistor to the Stamp's +5V.
4) Stamp sends appropriate commands to the chip to read cell values.
5) The Stamp deenergizes the relay and moves on to the next cell,
repeating the process.
Will that work?
Software-wise, I don't think a BASIC Stamp will be effective at
reading/writing the Maxim one-wire protocol. It is clumsy at handling
serial protocols that are different from what the built-in serial I/O
routines expect.
Hardware-wise, it would work. However, it takes a lot of parts. If
you're going to use relays, you might as well have a single normal A/D
converter at the Stamp, and connect it via the relays to each battery in
turn. There are serial A/D converters that the Stamp software *was*
designed to read. And, you don't need any hardware at all at each battery.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Thanks, Lee. Actually, the single A/D converter was my original plan,
until I got enamored with the 1-wire stuff. Oddly enough, it was the
instructions for my Basic Stamp 2p that got me looking at 1-wire in the
first place, since PBASIC 2.5 now has OWIN and OWOUT commands that are
designed to read and write 1-wire devices specifically.
Bill Dennis
Lee Hart wrote:
Bill Dennis wrote:
Maxim 1-wire chip... Maxim's vendor support told me the chips
all need a common ground, which wouldn't happen if each chip were on
a different cell in a series string of cells.
That is correct. "One-wire" is a misnomer -- they are really 2-wire
chips (i.e. the same as every other bidirectional serial communication
network).
So I was wondering if the following would work:
1) Basic Stamp powered via isolated 9V supply off the 12V system.
2) Each Li-ion cell has chip on it, chip VSS tied to cell negative
and chip VDD tied to cell positive.
3) to read a cell's value, energize a DPDT relay that ties the
chip's VSS to the Stamp's VSS, and the chip's DQ line to a Stamp
pin, with a 4.7K pull-up resistor to the Stamp's +5V.
4) Stamp sends appropriate commands to the chip to read cell values.
5) The Stamp deenergizes the relay and moves on to the next cell,
repeating the process.
Will that work?
Software-wise, I don't think a BASIC Stamp will be effective at
reading/writing the Maxim one-wire protocol. It is clumsy at handling
serial protocols that are different from what the built-in serial I/O
routines expect.
Hardware-wise, it would work. However, it takes a lot of parts. If
you're going to use relays, you might as well have a single normal A/D
converter at the Stamp, and connect it via the relays to each battery
in turn. There are serial A/D converters that the Stamp software *was*
designed to read. And, you don't need any hardware at all at each
battery.
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> If you ever drove a Rav4 & a Baker you will see he is way off.
> While the Baker has a little less range at 100 miles compared
> the Rav4 125 mile range the Rav is a real freeway capable vehicle
> with an 85mph top speed.
Would someone PLEASE contact Leno and offer to take him for a spin in
their eRAV4? Hell, better yet, I'll put $100 bucks towards gas to get
the White Zombie down for a smoke show. Leno seems to be a reasonable
guy -- a gearhead -- and someone we can reach out to.
Speaking here is kinda preaching to the choir. Don't get me wrong -- I
sing a mean note or two of that same tune, and I'm all for practicing
and expanding my repertoire here, but I'm aware that this particular
soapbox, as valuable as it is for information, has limited reach.
Jay Leno has a soapbox with better reach...
Randii
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On another blustery 58 degree day at Thompson Raceway, Ohio the Lawless
Industries AGNS bike captured a second NEDRA motorcycle record with an
1/8th mile performance of 8.66 seconds at 78.16 MPH backed by a (less
than 1% different) time of 8.718 at 76.30 MPH.
Extreme winds coming at the track at a 45 degree headwind forced track
officials to relegate all remaining runs to 1/8th mile after our first
1/4 mile run but even so AGNS with Denis on board managed a 13.66 at
95.22 MPH. Given a second shot at the 100 mph mark we may have made it
even running against the wind but we ended the day happy to have
achieved what we came for. I gave a copy of the NEDRA home page that
Chip recently edited to track officials and they were elated. They
thanked US for coming out to the track. Funny thing though, all of the
street bikes are starting to find other folks to line up against. We
had to run against a couple of snowmobiles. Oh well, they can't hide
for long. Next stop, 120 volts on Wednesday night. 100+ MPH if we're
on the mark...
Shawn Lawless
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
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Frank John (John Frank?),
What is your battery layout going to look like? What type of battery?
I'm just starting a '93 Toyota (22RE) conversion and am still working on
battery type/placement. My goal is 26 T-105/125/145 OR 25 Group 31 AGMs.
Insulated boxes are a bonus..
So far I've had the upholstery fixed, upgraded to a speedo cluster WITH
tach, and I'm working on the tilt bed thing. A passenger side mirror may
be next.
Adrian
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