EV Digest 6758
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Powering a power steering pump
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Powering a power steering pump
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Power of DC Ya goin'?
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by "TrotFox Greyfoot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: magnetic field in EV car?
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by "Patrick Robin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by "Patrick Robin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: GRM $2007 Challenge - Brainstorming
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: FS: never used PFC20 with buck enhancement
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: magnetic field in EV car?
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Powering a power steering pump
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) More on NiMH ... continued
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: was Comercial Contactor Controller, now drawings
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Anderson Connector Amp/V Capacity?
by Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: was Comercial Contactor Controller, now drawings
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Why I got the batteries that I did
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: was Comercial Contactor Controller, now drawings
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Washington State NEV's to go FASTER
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Motor equations
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jody,
According to my 12 volt amp and volt meter that is on the power steering
circuit, my electric steering pump (not the standard one that a engine turns
with a belt) draws about 3 amps at 12.1 volts at no load.
Turning the steering wheel at maximum while the EV is not moving, the ampere
peaks at about 15 amps for a micro second. I have the power steering unit
adjusted so it will draw minimum ampere. The turning resistance still feels
like it did with the engine driven power steering unit.
The effort to turn the standard belt driven power steering unit, plus
turning a vacuum pump, a alternator at no load, a A/C pump at no load and
the 11.5 inch main motor, a flywheel, clutch with the transmission in
neutral is only 3 inch pounds at a 60 rpm speed of a torque wrench or 1 rpm
per second which is a standard torque measurement speed.
IF I shift the transmission in 1st gear which is a 19.5:1 ratio, it only
takes 8 in lbs to move a 6860 lbs vehicle and in final gear of 5.57:1, it
takes about 25 in lbs.
The reduce resistance effect is the result of tires that have a very stiff
face, just about like a steel rim to keep the tire round very little
deflection, and very soft side walls, which takes up the deflection instead
of the face of the tire.
In choosing the correct tire for the least deflection, look at the maximum
load rating at PSI on the side of the tire. This load rating should be at
least 10 percent more than the vehicle weight on that tire.
For example, My weight on each rear tire is 2130 lbs, so the tire I have is
a 2640 lbs rating at 65 PSI. The fronts tires have a static load of 1300
lbs each, but rear to front thrust load could double that, so I air up the
fronts to 60 PSI.
I test out the front tires at 40, 50 and 60 PSI, and the motor ampere about
200 amps at 40 psi, 175 amps at 50 psi and 125 to 150 amps at 60 psi.
Therefore the steering effort and electric steering pump also has a direct
relation to this steering effort.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 6:33 AM
Subject: Powering a power steering pump
> I was thinking, a scooter motor might have enough torque to drive a
> power steering pump. I was looking at this one on ebay:
>
> 250113053349
>
> It is only 300 watt but it has an integrated speed controller.
>
>
> What do you think?
>
>
> Jody
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am going to try one of those scooter motors for my power steering
pump. If it doesn't work my next try is going to be a tilt drive motor
for a mercruiser outdrive. I know it will make enough hydraulic power
to run the power steering. They are pretty cheap on ebay.
Roland,
On your setup, are you running a pulley ratio or are you driving
it 1:1? I was thinking of taking off the pulley and using a coupler
from mcmaster carr to lessen the power loss.
Jody
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 10:07
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Powering a power steering pump
Hello Jody,
According to my 12 volt amp and volt meter that is on the power steering
circuit, my electric steering pump (not the standard one that a engine
turns with a belt) draws about 3 amps at 12.1 volts at no load.
Turning the steering wheel at maximum while the EV is not moving, the
ampere peaks at about 15 amps for a micro second. I have the power
steering unit adjusted so it will draw minimum ampere. The turning
resistance still feels like it did with the engine driven power steering
unit.
The effort to turn the standard belt driven power steering unit, plus
turning a vacuum pump, a alternator at no load, a A/C pump at no load
and the 11.5 inch main motor, a flywheel, clutch with the transmission
in neutral is only 3 inch pounds at a 60 rpm speed of a torque wrench or
1 rpm per second which is a standard torque measurement speed.
IF I shift the transmission in 1st gear which is a 19.5:1 ratio, it only
takes 8 in lbs to move a 6860 lbs vehicle and in final gear of 5.57:1,
it takes about 25 in lbs.
The reduce resistance effect is the result of tires that have a very
stiff face, just about like a steel rim to keep the tire round very
little deflection, and very soft side walls, which takes up the
deflection instead of the face of the tire.
In choosing the correct tire for the least deflection, look at the
maximum load rating at PSI on the side of the tire. This load rating
should be at least 10 percent more than the vehicle weight on that tire.
For example, My weight on each rear tire is 2130 lbs, so the tire I have
is a 2640 lbs rating at 65 PSI. The fronts tires have a static load of
1300 lbs each, but rear to front thrust load could double that, so I air
up the fronts to 60 PSI.
I test out the front tires at 40, 50 and 60 PSI, and the motor ampere
about 200 amps at 40 psi, 175 amps at 50 psi and 125 to 150 amps at 60
psi.
Therefore the steering effort and electric steering pump also has a
direct relation to this steering effort.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 6:33 AM
Subject: Powering a power steering pump
> I was thinking, a scooter motor might have enough torque to drive a
> power steering pump. I was looking at this one on ebay:
>
> 250113053349
>
> It is only 300 watt but it has an integrated speed controller.
>
>
> What do you think?
>
>
> Jody
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dave,
Glad you plan to come out!
I've been writing up an announcement with all the latest news about
the upcoming Power of DC but I want to answer your question quickly.
On our Power of DC website there is a list of hotels and I put up a
map of the area events with the hotel locations. Hotels are off of
Dual Highway (Rt 40) and Halfway Blvd in Hagerstown. Both are within
5 to 10 minutes of the events on Saturday and Sunday.
The hotels on Halfway Blvd are right off Interstate 81 and close to
the Saturday events. This is probably convenient for people coming
from the North. The hotels on Dual Highway are 5 to 10 minutes north
of the Drag racing events on Sunday. But whatever you chose it
shouldn't be more then 10 or 15 minutes from either event.
Links to the maps and hotels are off "Welcome" page on the site so
you can quickly get there to the information.
http://www.powerofdc.com/welcome.html
If anyone has any question they can call my cell or email
Chip Gribben
Power of DC
http://www.powerofdc.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
240-687-1678
On May 11, 2007, at 10:07 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: May 10, 2007 10:37:20 PM EDT
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Power of DC Ya goin'?
--- Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Power of DC? Show of hands! Anybody ELSE going? Time is
ticking down
towards THE day.I know alota guyz will be going. Just curious.
Seeya There?
I working my butt off to get there. I should have the car legally
on the road next week. She's all
set for towing. I still have work to do on the car and look forward
to any advice you guys can
offer. I might even give it a run on the track. Anyone bringing
parts to swap?
Does anyone have recommendations for places to stay down there?
Does the dragstrip offer camping?
Is there a planned gathering Friday night?
Dave Cover
Cell # 860-965-5025
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, wouldn't the pulsed DC be from the batteries with the motor
current being a shallow sawtooth due to the freewheel diodes?
Either way, the point is moot. So long as the cables are side-by-side
their fields should cancel since one cable has current going one way
and the other is the other way.
Unless I'm wrong... It has been known to happen.
Trot, the electrically-minded, fox...
On 5/11/07, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The light bulb just went on. Since the current coming from the
batteries is DC and constant, then twisting them wouldn't be required.
In my mind I was thinking that it was pulsed so it is a form of AC so
they would need to be twisted. The pulsed DC is actually from the
controller to the motor.
--
| /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember,
| ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a
| >\_/< [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It will kind of pulse, but not nearly as much as the motor side.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of TrotFox Greyfoot
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 10:34
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: magnetic field in EV car?
Actually, wouldn't the pulsed DC be from the batteries with the motor
current being a shallow sawtooth due to the freewheel diodes?
Either way, the point is moot. So long as the cables are side-by-side
their fields should cancel since one cable has current going one way and
the other is the other way.
Unless I'm wrong... It has been known to happen.
Trot, the electrically-minded, fox...
On 5/11/07, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The light bulb just went on. Since the current coming from the
> batteries is DC and constant, then twisting them wouldn't be required.
> In my mind I was thinking that it was pulsed so it is a form of AC so
> they would need to be twisted. The pulsed DC is actually from the
> controller to the motor.
--
| /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember,
| ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a
| >\_/< [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Bruce for the detailed info.
I would be curious to see the actual numbers.
If anyone has measurments in Gauss or Teslas please post.
Having measured many different kind of equipment myslef I am most curious
about the motor readings since all other electronics can be dealt with by
shielding and positioning. But the motor is like a huge rotating
transfomer and is by far the largest emitter in the car (ignoring the
charging transformer) and the most difficult to shield (normal metal cases
don't help)
As far as what is safe in EMI, unfortunately, all companies still use
safety standards that were determined after world war II when science
firmly beleived the only action electro-magnetic emissions can have on
living things is by heating tissue (microwave standards are also based on
that, if it can't cook you, it can't be bad). Research as come a long way
since then . Many many pier reviewed an dpublished studies have shown the
non-thermal effects of EMI and eventually the safety standards will have
to reflect that but since this is such a huge economical, political and
dissruptive issue, standards will always lag research for business and
political reasons. In the various bio-medical studies, the common trend is
that reproducible effects start to be seen at 3 milliGauss and are
frequency dependent. More effects are seen at ELF than VLF/RF/Microwave
unless those are modulated by ELF. This is counter intuitive based on
energy/wave length alone but that is what the studies show.
Anyway, I do not want to start a debate on this subject, I am only looking
for numbers. Having measured many motors myslef, both small and large, my
main interest is what the numbers are in real life EVs, wether the metal
frame plays a role and how it compares in relation to current electronics
packed modern ICU cars. IE, is there a big difference between an EV and a
ICU car regardless of potential effects.
Thank You
Patrick Robin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, substitute ICU for ICE (internal combustion engine) in my last post.
Patrick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joel Silverman wrote:
I have been thinking about how cool it would be to enter an EV in
the Grassroots Motorsports $2007 Challenge. It is basically a
contest to see who can build the best car for $2,007 judged in
autox, drag and show. Best overall score wins.
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Sorry, but I don't see how you can do this, unless you already own
all of the parts needed for the conversion. A new set of batteries
alone will set you back close to $2000.
If you start with a beater and spend all your money on EVs parts, you
end up with an electric beater, what do you figure the odds are of
that winning anything?
Well, let's see... If the point is to win a race, not build a practical
daily driver, then cheap starting batteries will be fine. They'll supply
lots of power for a short time, but be shot after a dozen deep cycles.
That's OK -- put your "good" deep-cycle batteries in it for normal driving.
Find an old car (to be cheap) that has good suspension (to have a chance
at the autocross) and strong drive train (for the drag race). Something
that also looks good (for the show). A 1965-69 Corvair or Beetle with a
lightweight fiberglass body (Bradley GT) occurs to me, but I'm sure
there are other candidates.
Get a *big* old forklift motor, and have Jim Husted work his magic on
it. Also get an old SCR controller (can't afford a Zilla); it won't be
so good on range, but can really pound out the amps. Hit that motor with
2-3 times its nameplate voltage.
On appearance, give it the Wayland touch -- something that will make
them sit up and take notice, and *remember* you. Wild sound system
(which doesn't have to cost much), and meticulous attention to detail
(labor).
Even if you don't win, you'll sure have a heck of a lot of fun in the
process, and surprise a lot of people! :-)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 11 May 2007, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Same deal? Do you mean $1800 for 10 regs? Seems a little steep.
Oddly, this is the oldest message I sent, and it appeared just now. I
don't know why. No, what I meant was same deal in terms of using them in
the car in PA, which when I am less screwed I will explain.
And the PFC20, well, $1650 if you want it now.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anybody use a compass in an EV? Does it work?
Marty
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That would be funny to see! I would bet that the compass points
directly to where the motor is.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Hewes
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 11:19
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: magnetic field in EV car?
Anybody use a compass in an EV? Does it work?
Marty
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jody,
The standard engine type power steering unit has a 4 inch pulley on it and
the drive pulley off the main motor, is a 8 inch. So that is a 2:1 ratio.
For every turn of the main motor, the pump would go two turns.
As when a engine or motor turns at 500 rpm, the pump turns at about 1000 rpm
which is about right rpm for it to work.
I latter install a 1.75 hp tread mill motor that you can get from Surplus
Sales Of Nebraska. They have 1000's of these in stock. They have a high
fail rate, because the front plate that holds the bearings collapse over
time in the direction of the belt pull. Also the brush holders are not
enclose, so I had to make a brush cover which make from a 3 inch PVC pipe
that slip over the end of the motor, which also holds a 3 in. 12 volt fan
that is mounted on a mounting plate that is JB Weld to the PVC pipe.
I therefore reinforce new motors with a 1/4 aluminum plates that sandwich
this front bearing plate, also works as a mounting plate. I had no problem
with this installation.
The problem is that these thread mill motors are 130 volts at 22 amps load
which is too high rpm of 7500 at that voltage. At 90 volts, its is still
7000 rpm and at 60 volts it is 4800 rpm at about 20 amps.
I therefore install a 2.25 inch pulley on the thread mill motors and ran the
4 inch pulley on the power steering which gives me about 2700 rpm at the
power steering pump.
I was also running a alternator, A/C, and vacuum pump of this motor, so I
made the aluminum mounting plate to hold two of these motors for a total
continuous 3.5 hp or peak 6 hp. The ampere at full load of all the
accessory drives came to 26 amps per motor, which was a little too high for
a 22 amp rated motor. So I remove the power steering unit, and purchase a
electric power steering pump from EVCan.
I do not know what gear ratio they are using inside these units, but it
draws way less then the thread motors do.
These thread mill motors of this type from the surplus or other sources,
cost about $20.00 each. A better type of motor is from the Tread Mill
Doctor which have larger enclose brushes, and a reinforce bearing mounting,
which cost about $160.00 each.
I figure I could replace eight of these motors for the cost of this one at
$160.00.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 8:26 AM
Subject: RE: Powering a power steering pump
> I am going to try one of those scooter motors for my power steering
> pump. If it doesn't work my next try is going to be a tilt drive motor
> for a mercruiser outdrive. I know it will make enough hydraulic power
> to run the power steering. They are pretty cheap on ebay.
>
>
> Roland,
>
> On your setup, are you running a pulley ratio or are you driving
> it 1:1? I was thinking of taking off the pulley and using a coupler
> from mcmaster carr to lessen the power loss.
>
>
> Jody
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 10:07
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Powering a power steering pump
>
> Hello Jody,
>
> According to my 12 volt amp and volt meter that is on the power steering
> circuit, my electric steering pump (not the standard one that a engine
> turns with a belt) draws about 3 amps at 12.1 volts at no load.
>
> Turning the steering wheel at maximum while the EV is not moving, the
> ampere peaks at about 15 amps for a micro second. I have the power
> steering unit adjusted so it will draw minimum ampere. The turning
> resistance still feels like it did with the engine driven power steering
> unit.
>
> The effort to turn the standard belt driven power steering unit, plus
> turning a vacuum pump, a alternator at no load, a A/C pump at no load
> and the 11.5 inch main motor, a flywheel, clutch with the transmission
> in neutral is only 3 inch pounds at a 60 rpm speed of a torque wrench or
> 1 rpm per second which is a standard torque measurement speed.
>
> IF I shift the transmission in 1st gear which is a 19.5:1 ratio, it only
> takes 8 in lbs to move a 6860 lbs vehicle and in final gear of 5.57:1,
> it takes about 25 in lbs.
>
> The reduce resistance effect is the result of tires that have a very
> stiff face, just about like a steel rim to keep the tire round very
> little deflection, and very soft side walls, which takes up the
> deflection instead of the face of the tire.
>
> In choosing the correct tire for the least deflection, look at the
> maximum load rating at PSI on the side of the tire. This load rating
> should be at least 10 percent more than the vehicle weight on that tire.
>
> For example, My weight on each rear tire is 2130 lbs, so the tire I have
> is a 2640 lbs rating at 65 PSI. The fronts tires have a static load of
> 1300 lbs each, but rear to front thrust load could double that, so I air
> up the fronts to 60 PSI.
>
> I test out the front tires at 40, 50 and 60 PSI, and the motor ampere
> about 200 amps at 40 psi, 175 amps at 50 psi and 125 to 150 amps at 60
> psi.
>
> Therefore the steering effort and electric steering pump also has a
> direct relation to this steering effort.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 6:33 AM
> Subject: Powering a power steering pump
>
>
> > I was thinking, a scooter motor might have enough torque to drive a
> > power steering pump. I was looking at this one on ebay:
> >
> > 250113053349
> >
> > It is only 300 watt but it has an integrated speed controller.
> >
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> >
> > Jody
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK. I didn't give enough info.
I limit the discharge per string to 13 A continuous
(22 A peak) with a polyswitch in line with each
string.
I limit the charge (and at the same time any charge
current from ajacent cells) to about 1-1.2 A
continuous, peak somewhere around 2.2 A. Again with a
polyswitch in line with a diode.
So, the hookup for charge is seperate from the hookup
for discharge .... This is key, as is the charge and
discharge rate limits.
So, my 105 x 100 NiMH D cell (theoretical) EV battery:
Is limited to 13 x 100 A drain = 130 A for discharge
and each string can see no more than 1 A continuous
charge which the cells can take pretty much forever.
Voltage is regulated by the AGM pack of 10 batteries.
Small light weight ones that have a short circuit
current 600 - 1000 A. Hawker or the like. small
capacity though 5 - 7 AH only (to keep the weight
down). They buffer the high surge current and control
the max and min voltage of the string. So, the NiMH
are never fully charged and never fully discharged.
They also never see more than 1 C discharge and never
more than a C/10 charge rate. That's how you get 1000
cycles out of them. Otherwise, if you abuse them, you
will get as low as 50 - 150 cycles. I know this
because I spent years testing NiMH cells (in my former
profession). It's in the chemistry. Treat them well,
and they will last. Treat them abusively, and they
won't. You must carefully limit the min and max
voltages as well. See further details below.
I am planning to build one 24 V module ... 21 x 100
NiMH cells in parallel with 12 x 2 (or 3) parallel
strings of Hawker D cells. Total capacity is 103 AH.
Voltage is ~24 V. Expect 1000 cycles. Max surge
current = 650 + Amps.
I still need time to assemble it, but the goal is to
build, test, and prove that this works in the real
world. My initial tests show that it should work very
very well.
Think Rav4 EV battery quality available today ....
Steve
<<<<
Now on e-bay ...
200 Pcs D Size 14000mAh NiMH Rechargeable Batteries
Item number: 110110553501
$1000 for 200 pcs of 14 AH
Basically, $3700 for 735 cells.
105 * 7 = 735
120 V (actually a little higher, but the estra 5 per
string are for correct buffer with AGM), 98 AH.
So, it can be done, and that is less than the
equivilent $ for Optimas.
My car id 220 Wh / mile, so that would be a real world
53 mile range capable for 1000 charge / recharge
cycles. Thets at least 40 - 50k miles on the pack
.... Makes you think. Now how much would that cost
in Optimas ...
Steve
>>>>
What would you impliment to keep these 7 strings
balanced? Is the staed
100
cycles at high discharge rates, and how high? Each
cell needs to be
monitored,
and that's going to cost a lot, too. This is the main
on-going issue
with using
NiMH in anything beyond a single string.
____________________________________________________________________________________Sick
sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's
Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5/8/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The other problem is archival. EVDL posts are archived. You can look at
one of my bad old ASCII schematics posted 10 years ago, and it looks the
same today. But if I had used a graphics program, the odds of you being
able to read it today are almost zero. What was a hot new program then
is out of business and obsolete today. Likewise, the formats that
today's OpenOffice produces will be unreadable ancient history in 10 years.
This might not be terribly helpful, but one method I've used for
sending schematics by email list (back in the days of fidonet) is
simple GIF graphics files, uuencoded. I find it easier to draw or
modify schematics in a simple program like 'paint' than use ascii, and
the results can be clearer. They *do* take a bit more space, but they
would be available in the archive.
uuencode and uudecode and the GIF format have been around forever, and
will probably never go away (I recently bought a new mac and much to
my surprise those utilities are included by default!)
So here's a little bit of schematic, as an experiment..
begin 0666 untitled.gif
M1TE&.#=AL@'B`(@``/___P```"P`````L@'B```"_X2/J<OM#Z,*LC**\-&V
M[P!RWDB6YHFFF\JV[CN*,"#6\Q*"]\[W?O8+"H>[EMAIL PROTECTED],F(S&9SZ8Q*)=#6
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`
end
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What would a 350A Anderson be adequate as a continuous rating- not
sure? The Andersons go from 350 and then jump to 700. I know I will
not be drawing the 1000A most likely, not if I want to keep the
transmission. When I drove the Scion e-box a week ago which has the
same curb weight as my car and the same trans and most likely the
same gross weight as my car with one rider (more passenger weight
that day) the wheels were breaking loose at 35+ wide open. Then
there are those long SF hills..
Mark
On May 11, 2007, at 3:46 AM, Cor van de Water wrote:
Yes, you are almost never drawing 1000 Amp from the batteries
and if you do occasionally, then certainly not for long.
Think about it - depending on your pack voltage - you would
be applying somewhere in the area of 200 to 300 hp and in
your small Yaris, how long does that take you to reach speed limit?
Useful part of the Z1k is allowing 1000 motor Amps, when a
motor is low speed this translates into a decent startup
torque at low voltage, so low battery amps due to the hi-low
voltage conversion in the controller.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Dutko
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 3:36 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Anderson Connector Amp/V Capacity?
I am looking for a manual pack disconnect and have seen some use the
Anderson connectors but they only go to 350A continuous, except for
the
SBE700 which is hard to find and most likely very expensive. So how
are
people using the 350A connector when using the full power of a
Zilla 1K/
Warp with and a large pack voltage. Is this due to the short term
high-current demand? I would like to do this to disconnect
sections of the
pack or a packaged box for servicing. Any suggestions or experience
for high
demand but not racing use.
Thanks
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, May 11, 2007 10:42 am, Evan Tuer wrote:
> So here's a little bit of schematic, as an experiment..
>
> begin 0666 untitled.gif
> M1TE&.#=AL@'B`(@``/___P```"P`````L@'B```"_X2/J<OM#Z,*LC**\-&V
>...
I guess listproc isn't smart enough to recognize attachments using the old
uuencode method. My local mail client (Evolution) recognized the
attachment perfectly; I was able to just click "View Inline" and I saw the
diagram. In my webmail client SquirrelMail however (from which I'm now
replying), I just saw the uuencoded data, and would have to copy and
decode by hand, a lot less convenient.
Another problem with this approach is the bandwidth it requires of the
list server, which has to copy the data to all recipients. Also, when
replying (especially those who top-post as I often do), folks may not have
the presence of mind to delete the data at the end of the original post,
thus propagating the image over and over.
Though it's obviously less permanent, it's probably better to stick the
image somewhere and post a link.
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rob&Amy Smith wrote:
Don't underestimate the impact of Peukert Effect and Internal
Resistance/Voltage Sag. Here are some example calcs from my design
spreadsheet:
Example 1:
Trojan 24TMX 12V FLA, pack of 2x12 (1128 lbs)
C/20 85AH, at 200A = 30.1Ah
65mph -> 208A @ 139V -> 22.2mi range
Example 2:
Deka Intimidator 9A34 VRLA AGM, pack of 2x12 (984 lbs)
C20 55Ah, at 200A = 45.7Ah
65mph -> 200.5A @ 142.2V -> 29.45mi range
So In this case the AGMs give 32% more range, weigh less, and cost about
$109 each at online pricing.
Even if you don't need the range you have to take into account the
effect your reduced range will have on the life of your batteries. The
more of your capacity you burn everyday, the sooner you'll be having to
replace the pack.
Take the following example chart from Concorde AGMs:
http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/conlife.gif borrowed from
http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/carfaq11.htm
Using this chart and assuming a 10 mile round trip daily commute would
give the following:
Design Range Est %DOD Cycles Lifetime
12.5mi 80% 500 2yr
20mi 50% 1000 4yr
40mi 25% 2000 8yr
I used Concordes AGMs in my EV, and did design for a 40-mile range, and
did drive it 10 miles on average between charges. And the batteries are
now 8 years old. At this point, two have died and been replaced, and the
rest of the pack soldiers on with about half their original capacity.
So, your estimation is pretty close to correct!
However, one needs to have a situation where the pack is still useful
even with half its original capacity to make use of this extended life.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have measured my Ford Escape Hybrid and it had levels above what I
was happy with in the rear seat (all vehicles I have measured have
high levels in the front seats. I would guess from the alternator) on
the left hand side where the motor cables connect to the battery. The
funny thing is that I tracked it down to the battery fan wire and the
fuel pump wire! yes you heard right 'the fuel pump wire"!
It is hard to tell what is coming from the motor because of all the
electronics in the front of the car. I figure the alternator has a
large magnetic field. Also power windows have high readings while
they are being operated.
When I get my pickup converted I would be happy to take readings. If
you want specific numbers on the Escape for now, let me know.
Large batteries I have measured have a field a few inches above the
case but it drops off pretty quick.
Tehben
On May 11, 2007, at 7:06 AM, Patrick Robin wrote:
Thanks Bruce for the detailed info.
I would be curious to see the actual numbers.
If anyone has measurments in Gauss or Teslas please post.
Having measured many different kind of equipment myslef I am most
curious
about the motor readings since all other electronics can be dealt
with by
shielding and positioning. But the motor is like a huge rotating
transfomer and is by far the largest emitter in the car (ignoring the
charging transformer) and the most difficult to shield (normal
metal cases
don't help)
As far as what is safe in EMI, unfortunately, all companies still use
safety standards that were determined after world war II when science
firmly beleived the only action electro-magnetic emissions can have on
living things is by heating tissue (microwave standards are also
based on
that, if it can't cook you, it can't be bad). Research as come a
long way
since then . Many many pier reviewed an dpublished studies have
shown the
non-thermal effects of EMI and eventually the safety standards will
have
to reflect that but since this is such a huge economical, political
and
dissruptive issue, standards will always lag research for business and
political reasons. In the various bio-medical studies, the common
trend is
that reproducible effects start to be seen at 3 milliGauss and are
frequency dependent. More effects are seen at ELF than VLF/RF/
Microwave
unless those are modulated by ELF. This is counter intuitive based on
energy/wave length alone but that is what the studies show.
Anyway, I do not want to start a debate on this subject, I am only
looking
for numbers. Having measured many motors myslef, both small and
large, my
main interest is what the numbers are in real life EVs, wether the
metal
frame plays a role and how it compares in relation to current
electronics
packed modern ICU cars. IE, is there a big difference between an EV
and a
ICU car regardless of potential effects.
Thank You
Patrick Robin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5/11/07, Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Though it's obviously less permanent, it's probably better to stick the
image somewhere and post a link.
Yes, I just checked the charter and it actually says "don't send
binary attachments" so I won't do it again, but it was interesting to
see that it worked :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Got word last night from Steve Mayeda, of MC Electric, the ZENN dealer
here in Seattle, that our House Bill 1820 which has both passed the
State House, and Senate, will be signed into LAW Tuesday, May 15th along
with 40 other pieces of legislation.
Any one who would like to attend the signing is welcome. Get a hold of
Steve at MC Electric at: 206 226-3500 for car pool information to Olympia.
The ONLY controversy which arose in the whole process of changing our
State low speed vehicles from 25 mph to 35 mph, was a rather nasty
letter to the Governor from Dalmer/Chrysler/GEM Legal.. just a few days
ago. Here is an excerpt:
"Based on current federal law it would be illegal for a business to
sell the proposed Medium Speed Electric Vehicle"
And:
"...allowing the MSEV bill to become law may draw unwanted NHTSA
attention to the State of Washington."
MY 2 CENTS ?? Big companies don't want to see EV's or NEV's or MSEV's
to become any more popular than they already are ! After driving many
NEV's round at 25 mph, it is obvious that 35 mph would be far more popular.
It is my understanding ( others can confirm ) that Montana has already
passed a similar bill some weeks ago... and I am sure OTHERS will follow.
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Marty Hewes wrote:
when you pull away from a stop at your chosen current limit, your
torque is more or less constant, until you reach the voltage and RPM
on the curve
Correct. You will be accelerating at a roughly constant rate. The rate
depends on your motor current and gear ratio.
With most EV controllers, you get a constant motor current at something
less than its full current limit. For example, at 25% throttle you might
get 100 amps from a 400 amp controller. In 2nd gear, you might
accelerate like this:
time speed
0 sec 0 mph
1 sec 5 mph
2 sec 10 mph
3 sec 15 mph
4 sec 20 mph, etc.
It will keep accelerating like this until the controller is fully on,
and motor voltage equals pack voltage. From that point and up, motor
current is falling, so acceleration rate falls until the speed
stabilizes. Let's say this happens at 20 mph; then above this:
5 sec 24 mph
6 sec 27 mph
7 sec 29 mph
8 sec 30 mph
9 sec 30 mph (our stable speed at this throttle setting)
but what accelerates you is HP (watts)? which is relative to that
torque and whatever RPM your drivetrain allows, right?
Right. Torque is constant, speed is increasing, so horsepower is increasing.
So the only point you would actually get the HP on the curve is at
the point the controller hits the voltage specified in the graph
(where you reach the RPM on the graph)?
Right.
I'm confused... I'm struggling with the idea that HP is directly
related to watts... It kinda sounds like at zero RPM, you'd have no HP,
draw no watts (thus no current), produce no torque, and go nowhere.
The mistake is that at zero speed, the RPM may be zero; but the
*current* (and thus torque), and thus acceleration) are not zero!
electrical => mechanical
0 volts => 0 RPM
1000 amps => 1000 ft.lbs torque
0v x 1000a = 0 watts => 0 RPM x 1000 ft.lbs = 0 horsepower
If you had a magical controller or transmission that could have an
infinite ratio between input and output, you could have a constant
*watts=>horsepower* drive instead of constant current=>torque. Instead
of constant acceleration, such a drive would have an exponential
acceleration. Such a drive produces a violent *lurch* from a dead stop
as if the car was hit from behind by a big hammer, followed by a rapidly
decreasing rate of acceleration.
The same 100 amps I used in the above example would become *battery*
amps, not motor amps, and the acceleration would be like this:
time speed
0 sec 0 mph
1 sec 15 mph
2 sec 20 mph (above this, controller is fully on as before)
3 sec 24 mph
4 sec 27 mph
5 sec 29 mph
6 sec 30 mph
7 sec 30 mph (our stable speed at this throttle setting)
Notice the violent start -- most people would find it uncomfortable to
go from 0-15 mph in 1 second; that's the G-force of a dragster that goes
from 0-60 mph in 4 seconds. Also, the forces on the drive train are so
high during that start that you're likely to spin the tires or break
something. And all this happens at a very low throttle setting!
So, we don't build things this way. It is hard to do, uncomfortable to
drive, and it breaks things.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
