EV Digest 6760
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by "Patrick Robin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by "Patrick Robin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: EV's on Local Talk Radio
by "Will Beckett \(becketts\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: GRM $2007 Challenge - Brainstorming
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: FS: never used PFC20 with buck enhancement
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Power of DC 2007
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV digest 6759
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: PLEASE FIX YOUR EMAIL CLIENTS!
by "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: GRM $2007 Challenge - Brainstorming
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Motor equations
by Steve Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: GRM $2007 Challenge - Brainstorming
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Questions regarding an EV
by "Mark Karatovic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: magnetic field in EV car?
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Why I got the batteries that I did
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by Tim Brehm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: 1-Wire Expertise
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Doin' the math
by Rob&Amy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> The needle on the BS meter has now spun around three times and has
> flown off. :-)
>
> You are concerned about 100 milliGauss. I have personally
> worked in DC fields as high as 150,000,000 milliGauss. If 100
> milliGuass DC was at all harmful, I would be dead 1,500,000 times over!
>
> The typical MRI scan is 15,000 Gauss. (15,000,000 milliGauss)
>
> The Earth's field is about 300 milliGauss. I guess we all will die
> from that very quickly as it is 3 times the amount you are concerned
> about.
>
> Again, show me the peer-reviewed scientific studies that show that DC
> fields are harmful. There are none because DC fields are not harmful.
You sure you want to read them? They are pretty boring ;)
To get plenty of references to them and maybe not falling asleep while
reading about the subject get a copy of "Cross Currents" by Dr Robert O
Becker. In the bibliography you will have all the references you want.
And I never mentioned DC fields. Obviously the motors produce varying
fields no matter if they are AC or DC current fed. Both work of varying
magnetic fields otherwhise the motor would stand still.
No one said 100 mGauss will kill you just like smoking one cigarette will
not or sniffing VOCs once in while a wont. One the other hand, All of them
are considered stressors or toxins.
Please keep the discussion level headed. We are just asking resonable
questions.
Patrick Robin
>
> Bill Dube'
>
> At 12:15 PM 5/11/2007, you wrote:
>>I think it is the frequency (megahertz) that counts which I guess
>>maybe in the case of AC is what it is pulsed at. With DC motors I
>>don't know, they must be creating an electromagnetic field at some
>>sort of frequency. Even though DC is what is says Direct Current the
>>controller is pulsing energy to it.
>>Some studies I believe have shown certain frequencies to be worse
>>than others.
>>Anyway all motors put out emf radiation.
>>I just did a test in the shop using a TriField Meter, I tested DC
>>hand power tools, AC hand power tools, a drill press and band saw,
>>and a 3-phase industrial grinder. All of them had electromagnetic
>>fields which varied between 4 and 8 feet before dropping completely
>>off. And were well over 100milligause up close. Using the variable
>>speed trigger vs. full on with the battery hand drill created a
>>higher field.
>>I think one of the theories is that we have evolved with the magnetic
>>and frequency field of the earth and all the electrical things we
>>have created are running at different frequencies and so mess up our
>>internal electronics.
>>
>>>Don't worry about the Gauss meter reading when the BS meter is pegged.
>>
>>Yes there is controversy over this and for example: Cell Phones,
>>Chemicals in food, Genetic Engineering, Global Warming, Pollution
>>from SUV's :), Aliens, Nuclear Power, Mac's vs. PC's... the list goes
>>on. They used to spray DDT on children to kill mosquitoes.(shrug)
>>
>>I am not claiming anything... (besides my tests I mentioned in the
>>shop :)
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Tehben
>
--
Patrick Robin
http://atelierrobin.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Patrick Robin wrote:
>> Having measured many different kind of equipment myself I am most
>> curious about the motor readings since all other electronics can be
>> dealt with by shielding and positioning. But the motor is like a huge
>> rotating transfomer and is by far the largest emitter in the car
>
> I don't think you will find this to be the case with EV motors. They are
> built quite a bit differently than the normal open-frame AC motors you
> find in consumer products.
>
> An EV motor is in a very thick, strong steel case. There are very few
> ventilation holes if it's air cooled, and *none* if it's liquid cooled.
> As a consequence, the motor itself has very little external magnetic
> field.
Not sure about that. Did you actually measure them. I consider them to be
similar in structure/material to industrial servo motors. Those motors are
completely enclosed in thick metal which doesn't do much to stop the
varying magnetic fields. Try measruing them and you will see.
As far as transformers, toroidal ones emit much less than others. The
fileds are contained as much as possible by the geometry of the
transformer.
Patrick Robin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Patrick.
I never actually said I was worried about it. It is an interesting
question to which I don't no the answer, either way. What I did say
was that I think what some people believe is that certain frequencies
are harmful and others like the Earths obviously are not harmful to
us (of course not, we live here. martians beware:P).
Milligauss is just the measurement of strength and since most stuff
in the electrical realm is the "supposedly" harmful frequency the
levels are measured from what is considered safe which is pretty low,
around 3 milligauss I think.
So for a DC motor, direct current is supplied to the controller which
pulses it to the motor and since the motor is spinning it is not a
static field like a magnet... right?
How does regular AC work?
And finally how about 3-phase AC?
Bill what produces 150 million milligauss DC magnetic fields? (will
it pull of your watch or glasses?)
Please correct me if I am wrong,
Cheers,
Tehben
On May 11, 2007, at 3:29 PM, Patrick Robin wrote:
The needle on the BS meter has now spun around three times and has
flown off. :-)
You are concerned about 100 milliGauss. I have personally
worked in DC fields as high as 150,000,000 milliGauss. If 100
milliGuass DC was at all harmful, I would be dead 1,500,000 times
over!
The typical MRI scan is 15,000 Gauss. (15,000,000 milliGauss)
The Earth's field is about 300 milliGauss. I guess we all will die
from that very quickly as it is 3 times the amount you are concerned
about.
Again, show me the peer-reviewed scientific studies that show that DC
fields are harmful. There are none because DC fields are not harmful.
You sure you want to read them? They are pretty boring ;)
To get plenty of references to them and maybe not falling asleep while
reading about the subject get a copy of "Cross Currents" by Dr
Robert O
Becker. In the bibliography you will have all the references you want.
And I never mentioned DC fields. Obviously the motors produce varying
fields no matter if they are AC or DC current fed. Both work of
varying
magnetic fields otherwhise the motor would stand still.
No one said 100 mGauss will kill you just like smoking one
cigarette will
not or sniffing VOCs once in while a wont. One the other hand, All
of them
are considered stressors or toxins.
Please keep the discussion level headed. We are just asking resonable
questions.
Patrick Robin
Bill Dube'
At 12:15 PM 5/11/2007, you wrote:
I think it is the frequency (megahertz) that counts which I guess
maybe in the case of AC is what it is pulsed at. With DC motors I
don't know, they must be creating an electromagnetic field at some
sort of frequency. Even though DC is what is says Direct Current the
controller is pulsing energy to it.
Some studies I believe have shown certain frequencies to be worse
than others.
Anyway all motors put out emf radiation.
I just did a test in the shop using a TriField Meter, I tested DC
hand power tools, AC hand power tools, a drill press and band saw,
and a 3-phase industrial grinder. All of them had electromagnetic
fields which varied between 4 and 8 feet before dropping completely
off. And were well over 100milligause up close. Using the variable
speed trigger vs. full on with the battery hand drill created a
higher field.
I think one of the theories is that we have evolved with the
magnetic
and frequency field of the earth and all the electrical things we
have created are running at different frequencies and so mess up our
internal electronics.
Don't worry about the Gauss meter reading when the BS meter is
pegged.
Yes there is controversy over this and for example: Cell Phones,
Chemicals in food, Genetic Engineering, Global Warming, Pollution
from SUV's :), Aliens, Nuclear Power, Mac's vs. PC's... the list
goes
on. They used to spray DDT on children to kill mosquitoes.(shrug)
I am not claiming anything... (besides my tests I mentioned in the
shop :)
Cheers,
Tehben
--
Patrick Robin
http://atelierrobin.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone able to connect live?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Willmon
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 1:41 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: EV's on Local Talk Radio
I got a spot on a local AM station here in Anchrage, 1080 KUDO, Friday May
11th appromiately 2:20 pm Alaska time. That would
3:20pm West Coast, and 6:20pm East Coast. The host is Camille Conte who has
been doing Progressive talk radio in Alaska for 20
years. Her show is called "Cutting Edge" and airs daily from 2-4pm AKST. I
could tease you and invite you to tune in :-O or you
could just log on and listen live at http://www.kudo1080.com/ .
Once on their website home page click any of the tabs at the top other than
the Home page. There will be an area in the top right
called "On Air Now" inviting you to "listen live". I cannot guarantee that
the schedule will be exactly at 2:20 AKST like she
told me, and if it changes I'll notify you here.
To be honest I am not so familiar with their website so I'm hoping you all
will find a way to comment back to the station.
Looking at their site the last few days though it looks like they provide a
forum, although with current content that I perused
through I may not hang out there much. I will probably answer a few
questions there, then invite those interested to our side.
Maybe others of you could do the same.
Any comments on what to say and what not to say? I've done this before for
news papers and TV, and at least 2000 individuals over
the last year. But hey talk radio is a bit different. Maybe its easier
though since you have immediate recourse if they misquote
you. Assuming its a friendly interview.
I did finally hunt down the piece of info I was looking for for just such an
interview.
The U.S. National average CO2 per Kwh from large power plants is:
Coal produced 2 lbs /Kwh
Diesel produced 1.4 lbs/Kwh
Natural Gas produced 1.0 lbs/Kwh
They way I figure it, if my 15mpg car made 19 lbs of CO2 for each gallon of
gasoline then the ICE I had made 0.8 lbs CO2 per mile.
My EV that gets ~333 Wh/Mi would only make 0.33 lbs CO2 per mile
(electricity produced from Natural Gas here in Anchorage)
To me that looks like a 2-1/2 times cleaner Carbon footprint.
Mike,
Anchorage, AK.
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5:08 PM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > Get a *big* old forklift motor, and have Jim
> Husted work his magic on
> > it.
>
> You'd have to pay him his fair market value, or
> deduct that ammount if he
> did it for free. Plus, unless you live in Oregon,
> you'd have to deduct
> the shipping costs. I'm guessing that would blow
> most of your $2007 budget
> on the motor alone.
Hey all
First off sorry I ain't been around much but I've been
at least lurking about, just no time or energy to post
8^(
I did want to at least stop on in and have a short
write. I found this thread intresting and I'd
actually love to do something like this although the
timing couldn't be more off for me this year as I'm
hip deep in 3 race projects and getting Chip a motor
for Power of DC to raffle off so my plates a bit full
at the moment8^) Gods up there sayin "Come on boy,
you said you were good", (he likes to toy with me like
that)(least it feels that way sometimes)hehe.
Now I haven't read the rules but I can't see how they
could object if I were to rebuild an old motor using
my time if lets say I entered a car. Now if a small
group got together and let's say, co-owned a car so as
owners put in their time why a lot of the time it
takes to build an EV could be looked upon as okay. If
nothing else (if batteries weren't somehow "pro
rated")(not like an ICE has to pre-buy 3 years of
gas)maybe they might be willing to adjust for that
fact.
Anyway I'm pretty tired and blathering I just wanted
to say that it'd be fun to do maybe like an "as low"
as can be done EV that someone could enter. Although
I can't help this year maybe they'll do a 2008 and
heck we'd get another buck to spend 8^P
Got to run
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________Give
spam the boot. Take control with tough spam protection in the all-new Yahoo!
Mail Beta.
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 11 May 2007, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Actually I was being a bit of a smartass and trying to get you to post how
much you wanted for the regs. Apparently it didn't work.
42.50 each shipped? (they're 2b)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all
I was wondering if these waves can cause you to get
ugly, cause I've been told that alot 8^P but other
than that I've been around running motors what feels
like all my life, both AC and DC they're is almost at
least one motor running at the shop and close by.
I was at youtube today and noticed that there were
comments about this there as well. I personaly liked
the "what a moron, he'll die in a week" (or somethin
like that) comment. Anyway I just wanted to state
that besides the ugly thing, well that and the
twiching thing, I'mm jjustt, finee 8^00
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________Boardwalk
for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's
economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey All,
Here is the latest information on the 2007 Power of DC presented by
Harvey Coachworks. Thanks for everyone's interest and this year we
have opportunities for just about everyone who has an EV to compete
in some event.
The Power of DC is June 2-3 in Hagerstown, Maryland which is in
Western Maryland.
ACCOMMODATIONS AND INFORMATION
All the info including Hotels and Maps is available on the Power of
DC website http://www.powerofdc.com. The "Welcome Page" has most of
the pertinent information with a link to a listing of hotels, map to
the events, and the event flyer. Briefly, hotels are available on
Halfway Blvd off I-81 and Dual Highway (Rt 40) North of I-70. Both
are within 5 to 10 minutes of each days events.
POWER OF DC SCHEDULE
SATURDAY, JUNE 2
Location: Southend Shopping Center Parking lot - 1181 Maryland
Avenue, Hagerstown
9:00 am to 10:30 - Arrive and set up. Meet and great time.
10:30 - AutoCross (course set up and timing by the SCCA)
12:00 pm - Lunch
1:00 pm - Range Rally (8 miles)
1:00 pm - ScooterCross (All ages. Kids under 16 with parental consent)
2:30 pm - Show-n-Shine
4:00 to 5:00 pm - Awards
6:00 pm Dinner and Social (TBA)
SUNDAY, JUNE 3 - OFFICIAL NEDRA EVENT
Location: Mason-Dixon Dragway. 21344 National Pike (Rt 40) Boonsboro,
MD 21713. A mile or so south of Interstate 70 and about 10 to 15
minutes from Saturday's location.
There is an entrance fee of $25 for racers and its either $5 or $10
for spectators.
Everyone is more then welcome to hang out in the pit area.
10:00 am - Organizers set up
11:00 am - Gates open
12:00 to 4:00 pm - Drag Racing
5:00 to 5:30 - Awards
6:00 Dinner - TBA
RAFFLES AND GIVE AWAYS
We have lots of cool stuff to give away including a custom built 6.7
motor from the EVDLs own Jim Husted. Thunderstruck Motors has donated
an Etek Motor. Plasma Boy Racing - our own John Wayland has donated
some Plasma Boy Shirts. SEVO is donating an electric mini-bike.
QuickCable has donated some really nice crimping tools. . . and more.
SPONSORS
Harvey Coachworks
Maryland Energy Administration
Clean Cities of Metropolitan Baltimore
Thunderstruck Motors
Hi-Torque Electric
KTA Services
Plasma Boy Racing
Manzanita Micro
SkooterCommuter
Quick Cable
Sierra Club, Catoctin Region
Electric Vehicle Association of Washington DC
RACERS
These are racers who confirmed or expressed interest in racing
1) West Virginia University Electric Formula 1
2) Lawless Industries and their fleet of vehicles:
a) Orange Juice Dragster
b) NEDRA record breaker, AGNS Motorcycle
c) Nash Electropolitan
3)Darrin Gilbert's upgraded Pirahna motorcycle
4) Great Mills High School is bringing something new and hot
5) Mike Harvey's awesome Cabriolet conversion
6) I think Miramar may be coming up from Florida with their Porsche
7) Central Shenandoah Regional Governor's School 240-Z
8) Joe Lado's Destiny 2000 bright yellow Fiero
9) Chip Gribben's fleet of EVs
a) 144 volt Ford Escort
b) Dual motor Schwinn Scooter
c) Custom stretched out electric cruiser bike
10) Bryan Murtha's Fleet of EVs
a) RAV-4 EV
b) Ranger EV
11) I think Bob Rice is coming down
12) Dave cover's new EV
13) Mark Hansen's new Electric Porsche, but I think he will be away.
14) SkooterCommuter's Kasea scooter
If I left anyone out please let me know
We would also sincerely like to thank those on the list who are
visiting the event.
AWARDS
We will be giving out trophies to the award winners. Hopefully some
cash will be awarded depending on how much we can raise before the
event.
T-SHIRTS
Event T-Shirts will be available for sale for $20.00 each
Hope to see you all there
Chip Gribben
Power of DC
http://www.power.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
cell 240-687-1678
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I guess we need to rewrite the NEDRA rules that you can only break
NEDRA records in one of those 1,500,000 lifetimes or every other
500,000 lifetimes or if the record occurs within .03% of the next
lifetime.
Chip
On May 11, 2007, at 6:37 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: May 11, 2007 3:06:11 PM EDT
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: magnetic field in EV car?
The needle on the BS meter has now spun around three times and has
flown off. :-)
You are concerned about 100 milliGauss. I have personally
worked in DC fields as high as 150,000,000 milliGauss. If 100
milliGuass DC was at all harmful, I would be dead 1,500,000 times
over!
The typical MRI scan is 15,000 Gauss. (15,000,000 milliGauss)
The Earth's field is about 300 milliGauss. I guess we all will die
from that very quickly as it is 3 times the amount you are
concerned about.
Again, show me the peer-reviewed scientific studies that show that
DC fields are harmful. There are none because DC fields are not
harmful.
Bill Dube'
At 12:15 PM 5/11/2007, you wrote:
I think it is the frequency (megahertz) that counts which I guess
maybe in the case of AC is what it is pulsed at. With DC motors I
don't know, they must be creating an electromagnetic field at some
sort of frequency. Even though DC is what is says Direct Current the
controller is pulsing energy to it.
Some studies I believe have shown certain frequencies to be worse
than others.
Anyway all motors put out emf radiation.
I just did a test in the shop using a TriField Meter, I tested DC
hand power tools, AC hand power tools, a drill press and band saw,
and a 3-phase industrial grinder. All of them had electromagnetic
fields which varied between 4 and 8 feet before dropping completely
off. And were well over 100milligause up close. Using the variable
speed trigger vs. full on with the battery hand drill created a
higher field.
I think one of the theories is that we have evolved with the magnetic
and frequency field of the earth and all the electrical things we
have created are running at different frequencies and so mess up our
internal electronics.
Don't worry about the Gauss meter reading when the BS meter is
pegged.
Yes there is controversy over this and for example: Cell Phones,
Chemicals in food, Genetic Engineering, Global Warming, Pollution
from SUV's :), Aliens, Nuclear Power, Mac's vs. PC's... the list goes
on. They used to spray DDT on children to kill mosquitoes.(shrug)
I am not claiming anything... (besides my tests I mentioned in the
shop :)
Cheers,
Tehben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5/11/07, Timothy Balcer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Clean, pure text -is- the conventional format for lists. It keeps the
size of emails way, way down and keeps spammy blinking images from
showing up in my Inbox :) It also prevent people from putting in
signatures that have animated gifs. I've run mailing list servers for
years, and one thing I always did was restrict to plain text.
Mainly though, it keeps the total traffic down by a LOT. I wouldn't
want the list to change it's format. I like it this way!
--T
I heard a rumor that this list is changing to the Mailman MLM
software. Mailman is smart enough to strip unwanted content from
multipart messages without sending the "REMAINDER OF MESSAGE
TRUNCATED" crap.
--
Martin Klingensmith
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As I said "Peer Reviewed" "Scientific Studies". This book you site is
_not_ peer reviewed and is _not_ a scientific study.
You must show, via a carefully run study on lots of randomly selected
people, that folks exposed to DC magnetic fields have adverse health
effects markedly different than those that are not exposed to DC
magnetic fields. (or those exposed to a different amount of DC
magnetic fields.)
Here is a paper showing a summary of the peer-reviewed (scientific)
literature on the health effects of magnetic fields of all frequencies:
http://www.bccdc.org/content.php?item=57
Guess what, DC fields are harmless.
There has been some genuine scientific studies on bone
healing acceleration with DC fields, but it is possible that the
forces on the magnets, rather than the field in the bone, aided
healing. Causality was not well controlled. Regardless, it was a
positive health effect rather than a negative one.
At 05:29 PM 5/11/2007, you wrote:
> The needle on the BS meter has now spun around three times and has
> flown off. :-)
>
> You are concerned about 100 milliGauss. I have personally
> worked in DC fields as high as 150,000,000 milliGauss. If 100
> milliGuass DC was at all harmful, I would be dead 1,500,000 times over!
>
> The typical MRI scan is 15,000 Gauss. (15,000,000 milliGauss)
>
> The Earth's field is about 300 milliGauss. I guess we all will die
> from that very quickly as it is 3 times the amount you are concerned
> about.
>
> Again, show me the peer-reviewed scientific studies that show that DC
> fields are harmful. There are none because DC fields are not harmful.
You sure you want to read them? They are pretty boring ;)
To get plenty of references to them and maybe not falling asleep while
reading about the subject get a copy of "Cross Currents" by Dr Robert O
Becker. In the bibliography you will have all the references you want.
And I never mentioned DC fields. Obviously the motors produce varying
fields no matter if they are AC or DC current fed. Both work of varying
magnetic fields otherwhise the motor would stand still.
No one said 100 mGauss will kill you just like smoking one cigarette will
not or sniffing VOCs once in while a wont. One the other hand, All of them
are considered stressors or toxins.
Please keep the discussion level headed. We are just asking resonable
questions.
Patrick Robin
>
> Bill Dube'
>
> At 12:15 PM 5/11/2007, you wrote:
>>I think it is the frequency (megahertz) that counts which I guess
>>maybe in the case of AC is what it is pulsed at. With DC motors I
>>don't know, they must be creating an electromagnetic field at some
>>sort of frequency. Even though DC is what is says Direct Current the
>>controller is pulsing energy to it.
>>Some studies I believe have shown certain frequencies to be worse
>>than others.
>>Anyway all motors put out emf radiation.
>>I just did a test in the shop using a TriField Meter, I tested DC
>>hand power tools, AC hand power tools, a drill press and band saw,
>>and a 3-phase industrial grinder. All of them had electromagnetic
>>fields which varied between 4 and 8 feet before dropping completely
>>off. And were well over 100milligause up close. Using the variable
>>speed trigger vs. full on with the battery hand drill created a
>>higher field.
>>I think one of the theories is that we have evolved with the magnetic
>>and frequency field of the earth and all the electrical things we
>>have created are running at different frequencies and so mess up our
>>internal electronics.
>>
>>>Don't worry about the Gauss meter reading when the BS meter is pegged.
>>
>>Yes there is controversy over this and for example: Cell Phones,
>>Chemicals in food, Genetic Engineering, Global Warming, Pollution
>>from SUV's :), Aliens, Nuclear Power, Mac's vs. PC's... the list goes
>>on. They used to spray DDT on children to kill mosquitoes.(shrug)
>>
>>I am not claiming anything... (besides my tests I mentioned in the
>>shop :)
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Tehben
>
--
Patrick Robin
http://atelierrobin.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>> Get a *big* old forklift motor, and have Jim Husted work his
>>> magic on it.
>> You'd have to pay him his fair market value, or deduct that
>> amount if he did it for free. Plus, unless you live in Oregon,
>> you'd have to deduct the shipping costs.
I haven't read the rules; do they really expect shipping expenses to be
included in that $2007? That would mean no one but locals could even
participate, because you could blow your entire budget just transporting
yourself and your car there.
From: Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I found this thread intresting and I'd actually love to do
> something like this... although the timing couldn't be more off
> for me this year...
The standard approach to have a winning car is to *buy* your brains and labor.
Hire the best people and buy the best parts. But that's out of bounds for this
$2007 challenge.
But there are other approaches if you don't have money. You can be smart enough
and skilled enough yourslef, so you don't have to hire people with these skills
-- in that case it's free. Or, you can invest lots of time and do it with labor
-- that's also free if you do it yourself.
There's one more approach that's rarely used, but might work here. If you lack
the money and skills to design and build it yourself, sometimes you can inspire
othes to *donate* their talents for "the cause".
This doesn't mean (for example) getting a motor for free that should cost $1000
-- that's cheating. But it *could* mean having experts tell the team what motor
to look for, where it might be found, what changes to make in it, etc.
There is so much talent on this list that if someone were to try to build a
competitive EV for this contest, you could get a lot of good advice that would
save a lot of time and effort.
--
I would not waste my life in friction when it could be turned into momentum. --
Frances Willard
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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>> An EV motor is in a very thick, strong steel case. There are very
>> few ventilation holes if it's air cooled, and none if it's liquid
>> cooled. As a consequence, the motor itself has very little external
>> magnetic field.
From: Patrick Robin
> Did you actually measure them. I consider them to be similar in
> structure/material to industrial servo motors. Those motors are
> completely enclosed in thick metal which doesn't do much to stop
> the varying magnetic fields. Try measruing them and you will see.
If you mean a PM servomotor, I would expect them to have an external DC field
because of the large powerful magnets. Such motors will affect a compass, but
it has to get fairly close. More than a couple feet away, the motor's field
falls below that of the earth.
If you mean an external AC field, the ones from the motor itself are really
small. The connecting wires to the motor were causing 100 times the RFI of the
motor itself. The only time the motor itself generated a lot of RFI is a) a
brushed motor at high current, b) a motor operating at extremely high current,
well in excess of its ratings so that the iron was saturating.
> As far as transformers, toroidal ones emit much less than others. The
> fields are contained as much as possible by the geometry of the
> transformer.
Yes, though again, a high quality conventional transformer that is avoids
saturation is pretty good. The EMI falls to very low levels just 1-2 feet away.
--
I would not waste my life in friction when it could be turned into momentum. --
Frances Willard
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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On Fri, 2007-05-11 at 13:51 -0700, Roger Stockton wrote:
<snip>
> Some people add external blowers to give the motor more cooling
> air, especially at low speeds where the internal fan is less effective.
>
Thanks, that clears up that aspect of the issue.
> > I'd do that, but the whole reason I started looking into this
> > is that I *do* need some confidence in the numbers at the low
> > RPM/high torque extreme because I actually need more RPM at
> > the higher torque levels if I'm going to climb some 8% grades
> > at 50 mph or so.
>
> More RPM at the same (high) torque suggests that you need to run more
> voltage than what the curves are for.
I am aware that more volts would help; however, I'm trying to determine
the *lowest* voltage pack that would work, since increasing the pack
voltage significantly will also signficantly raise my battery costs (at
least at the prices I assume I'll be paying).
> This is a problem with the
> curve-fit model used by the calculator: it may fit the motor curve you
> plug in for a specific voltage, but may not accurately reflect the
> behaviour if try to simulate the motor with a different pack voltage.
I understand. One thing I am doing is using the existing curves to try
to get a feeling for how much error is introduced when moving from one
curve to another. I know the fit won't be perfect and my experimentation
may, in the end, only convince me that an accurate enough simulation is
unobtainable.
>
> What I'd be more concerned with here is how long that 8% grade is, and
> what power for how long is required to climb it. Check the motor
> thermal specs to see if it can even sustain the required power level for
> the required time without overheating.
Have done. The best info I've obtained on the motor is that at 144v, it
will do 48.8 HP for five minutes. If anyone can give me an idea of
roughly how much I can increase that rating for a period of about two
minutes, it would help (assuming the 48.8 is realistic). (The EVParts
tech guy left me with the impression this would be no problem, but other
opinions/experiences would be valued.)
Right now my calcs indicate that for any car I'm likely to convert,
I'll need around 50-60 hp, maybe a little more if I need to accelerate
while I'm on the hill (there's a tight turn in the middle of it). This
depends on the gear ratios, of course, and I've thought about fiddling
with those, but for now I'm just taking stock ones as a starting point.
--Steve
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Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> People only replace their starting batteries when they can no
> longer start the car. The Winners in this race ar hitting 10's
> in the quater mile and the top 25 are in the 14's. Do you REALLY
> think you can be that competitive with batteries that are so
> worn out they won't even start a car?
I meant to use *new* starting batteries, not used ones. New SLI batteries are
probably the cheapest bang-for-the-buck you can get.
> Actually, do you even think you could do it with BRAND NEW starting
> batteries?
In 1968, the Autolite "Lead Wedge" set a record of 138.862 mph at Bonneville.
It used a plain old GE series motor, and twenty Autolite SLI lead-acid
batteries. They also toured it around the country, running at various
dragstrips. I couldn't find any times, but with that motor and pack, it could
have been wickedly fast. Here's a picture and some info:
http://www.brianharney.net/wheels/hotrod/hr692044.htm
> They had a bettle race last year. It came in near the back of
> the pack, and that was WITHOUT adding a 1/2 ton of lead.
A VW "Beetle"? How was it set up?
>> Get a *big* old forklift motor, and have Jim Husted work his
>> magic on it.
> You'd have to pay him his fair market value, or deduct that
> amount if he did it for free.
Or get his advice on what should be done, and do it yourself. That would add
very little cost.
> Plus, unless you live in Oregon, you'd have to deduct the shipping
> costs.
Are you sure they require shipping costs to be part of the price? That would
put anyone that wasn't local out of the running, because shipping *any* car and
team cross country would eat up that $2007 budget.
> If you were really lucky and stumbled on some really sweet details,
> you /might/ be able to build a car that managed last place in every
> event.
Thanks for your encouragement. :-) Makes me almost want to try to do it. Say...
the guy that bought my old ComutaVan wants to sell it...
--
I would not waste my life in friction when it could be turned into momentum. --
Frances Willard
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Hey,
I was thinking of going to the next demo that the AEVA have to at
least see what people did, and hopefully learn from it. At this stage
I looked at the meetings and didn't think I would be able to attend
those due to the time (unfortunately due to my money earning job).
Well the fact that a local person can make the plates sounds
encouraging to say the least. One contact is always good.
On the other note it seems complex to desing a controller, but I guess
when your designing for safety it will be. A controller gone wrong
could be quite dangerous if it just open circuits, or cuts out without
warning. I would like to see a circuit of one actually running, would
give me some idea. Oh well, can be done later.
Thanks everyone.
On 5/11/07, Claudio Natoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello Mark,
> There may be someone local that may be able to do something in
> regards to it, need to go to a demo somewhere. I will take a
> look at that site in the hope of getting an idea on the plates.
Adaptor plates can be made by local machine shops. I had mine made by David
Probin from Prolec Engineering in Castle Hill.
> BTW I live in Western Sydney.
You might like to come along to a meeting of Sydney AEVA. See here for future
meeting details, and also links to some local suppliers:
http://sydneyaeva.googlepages.com
Cheers,
Claudio
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Hey it could be worse for you Jim,
You could build high voltage chargers
and suffer from the dreaded chroming of the dome, syndrone.
Look what those EV rays did to me. I don't even build chargers
or motors. All I did was just build an EV, and now I have to wear a hat to
keep my head warm in the winter. ;-P
Mike
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Jim Husted
> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 4:44 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: magnetic field in EV car?
>
>
> Hey all
>
> I was wondering if these waves can cause you to get
> ugly, cause I've been told that alot 8^P but other
> than that I've been around running motors what feels
> like all my life, both AC and DC they're is almost at
> least one motor running at the shop and close by.
>
> I was at youtube today and noticed that there were
> comments about this there as well. I personaly liked
> the "what a moron, he'll die in a week" (or somethin
> like that) comment. Anyway I just wanted to state
> that besides the ugly thing, well that and the
> twiching thing, I'mm jjustt, finee 8^00
>
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________Boardwalk
> for $500? In 2007? Ha!
> Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
> http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
>
>
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Lee,
What do you think of Universal Power Group batteries?
I used Concordes AGMs in my EV, and did design for a 40-mile range, and
did drive it 10 miles on average between charges. And the batteries are
now 8 years old. At this point, two have died and been replaced, and the
rest of the pack soldiers on with about half their original capacity.
So, your estimation is pretty close to correct!
However, one needs to have a situation where the pack is still useful
even with half its original capacity to make use of this extended life.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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I suppose because entire microcomputer (controller with its I/Os, PICs
for sure) is cheaper these days than one single mechanical relay, esp.
good one.
If you look in Digikey catalog, you may find a small
PIC processor (containing tens of thousands transistors if you think of
it) for less than 5 pin PCB header which is just 5 short hard wires
molded into a piece of plastic. It's explainable, but isn't it amazing?
Victor
Lee Hart wrote:
...
Why have a computer on every battery? If all he want to do is measure
each battery's voltage, all that's needed is a central "box" to measure
voltage (could be just a multimeter or analog meter), and the relays to
select which battery it measures. If you don't like mechanical relays,
use solid state relays.
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Like he said :-)
I do have my own spreadsheet version, but its almost all based on Bob
Brant's book, with help from the web based calculators of Uve, and
Jerry Halstead. I would highly recommend running some numbers, it
can be very informative. I did my own because I wanted to be able to
customize, see graphs, and be able to save results. Someday I'll get
it cleaned up enough that I can share it, right now it would be way
to confusing to try and tell anyone how to use it.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/8679/evcalc.html
http://www.evconvert.com/tools/evcalc/
Uve's calc also has a page with helpful info on the equations:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/8679/equations.html
Rob
On May 11, 2007, at 1:25 PM, Steve Peterson wrote:
On Fri, 2007-05-11 at 14:19 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Rob> Here are my numbers if anyone's interested.
Got a spreadsheet? I'm new to all these calculations. It would
be helpful
for me to examine your equations.
Thx,
One is available here:
http://www.evconvert.com/batteries.zip
Also, check around his site, he has some other tools you may find
handy.
--Steve
Amy Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Birth Doula
Childbirth Educator
602-277-1572
602-405-3744
"Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire" -
Yeats
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