EV Digest 6761
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) New Hall sensor
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Doin' the math
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Doin' the math
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Power of DC 2007 - CHARGING
by "BadFishRacing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Washington State NEV's to go FASTER
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Lithium for $0.19 / Watt Hour Is this for real?
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Doin' the math
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: Lithium for $0.19 / Watt Hour Is this for real?
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Lithium for $0.19 / Watt Hour Is this for real?
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Motor equations
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Lithium for $0.19 / Watt Hour Is this for real?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: Lithium for $0.19 / Watt Hour Is this for real? No oops.
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) To Charge or not to charge
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: GRM $2007 Challenge - Brainstorming
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Doin' the math (now Chinese products)
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: GRM $2007 Challenge - Brainstorming
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by "Patrick Robin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Honda Hydrogen Fuel Cell BOYCOTT?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Motor equations
by Steve Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I work for a company that was unhappy with the quality of the pots used
in their joysticks. Today they had a presentation on the new improved model.
They are using this chip in the new design and I was quiet impressed
with the specs. It is for the automotive industry and can act as a
analog pot, digital pot or PWM out. It is directly replaceing a 5Kohm
pot. They are actually gonna save money over the mechanical pots.
http://www.edn.com/article/CA6261028.html
http://www.melexis.com/ProdMain.aspx?nID=566
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Well, except for some of the Chinese manufacturers, which rate their cells
highly idealized rates, maybe something like the rate of the best cell
ever tested. Honesty and quality appear to be concepts that the Chinese
(as a whole) are slow to adopt.
Right. Why tell truth if it reduces sales NOW? It's just bad business
practice. When truth surfaces, change your market. Silly US companies
just don't get it - such simple way to make money making easier...
Talk to native Chinese businessman if you get chance. The more cleverly
he/she can make you believe in something (and so proceed in business),
the better businessman he is. Whether object of believing is real
is no longer really relevant (after deal is done or has potential).
Reputation is still (for most businesses there) not something tangible
you can deposit into account, and *only* account contents is indication
of business success, you know...
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
lol
:)
On May 11, 2007, at 4:43 PM, Jim Husted wrote:
Hey all
I was wondering if these waves can cause you to get
ugly, cause I've been told that alot 8^P but other
than that I've been around running motors what feels
like all my life, both AC and DC they're is almost at
least one motor running at the shop and close by.
I was at youtube today and noticed that there were
comments about this there as well. I personaly liked
the "what a moron, he'll die in a week" (or somethin
like that) comment. Anyway I just wanted to state
that besides the ugly thing, well that and the
twiching thing, I'mm jjustt, finee 8^00
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
______________________________________________________________________
______________Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here
and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim Humphrey wrote:
...
Battery $ per mile
GC's .08
> Lithium .09
> NiMH> .10
> Orbital .11
> NiCad .21
> Optima .27
What "we" really need is what Victor said years ago.... A paradigm
shift, prepaying for energy. Accept the fact that your batteries are
a very large portion of your energy cost, and not just a storage
device. A large upfront cost will pay off in the long run. Much like
solar, wind etc.
-- Stay Charged! Hump I-5, Blossvale NY
Oh, get real :-) You know how people are.
What was last time you saw a person buying a house outright
saving *a lot* in a loooong (30 years) run? People LOVE to pay 3x at the
end as long as it's low every month which seem to be only visible to
them. A house is extreme case, few have that kind of money available
but I'm sure if they would, most still would keep paying mortgages.
FWIW, NiCd option I think is in wrong place on your comparison, it's
about the cheapest cost over life of the battery.
Little problem is - who wants to wait their life time to witness that?
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey All,
I'm working on a spider box to provide all the necessary power everyone
might need for charging at the Power of DC 2007 (and beyond). At this
moment, I've got 8-20amp 120V circuits. What is the preferred connector for
anything bigger? 30A Dryer outlet (NEMA 10-30)? 50A Range outlet (NEMA
10-50)? Twistlocks (NEMA L6-30)?
Will try to accommodate all.
Darin
BadFishRacing
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 8:43 PM
Subject: Power of DC 2007
Hey All,
Here is the latest information on the 2007 Power of DC presented by
Harvey Coachworks. Thanks for everyone's interest and this year we have
opportunities for just about everyone who has an EV to compete in some
event.
The Power of DC is June 2-3 in Hagerstown, Maryland which is in Western
Maryland.
ACCOMMODATIONS AND INFORMATION
All the info including Hotels and Maps is available on the Power of DC
website http://www.powerofdc.com. The "Welcome Page" has most of the
pertinent information with a link to a listing of hotels, map to the
events, and the event flyer. Briefly, hotels are available on Halfway
Blvd off I-81 and Dual Highway (Rt 40) North of I-70. Both are within 5
to 10 minutes of each days events.
POWER OF DC SCHEDULE
SATURDAY, JUNE 2
Location: Southend Shopping Center Parking lot - 1181 Maryland Avenue,
Hagerstown
9:00 am to 10:30 - Arrive and set up. Meet and great time.
10:30 - AutoCross (course set up and timing by the SCCA)
12:00 pm - Lunch
1:00 pm - Range Rally (8 miles)
1:00 pm - ScooterCross (All ages. Kids under 16 with parental consent)
2:30 pm - Show-n-Shine
4:00 to 5:00 pm - Awards
6:00 pm Dinner and Social (TBA)
SUNDAY, JUNE 3 - OFFICIAL NEDRA EVENT
Location: Mason-Dixon Dragway. 21344 National Pike (Rt 40) Boonsboro, MD
21713. A mile or so south of Interstate 70 and about 10 to 15 minutes
from Saturday's location.
There is an entrance fee of $25 for racers and its either $5 or $10 for
spectators.
Everyone is more then welcome to hang out in the pit area.
10:00 am - Organizers set up
11:00 am - Gates open
12:00 to 4:00 pm - Drag Racing
5:00 to 5:30 - Awards
6:00 Dinner - TBA
RAFFLES AND GIVE AWAYS
We have lots of cool stuff to give away including a custom built 6.7
motor from the EVDLs own Jim Husted. Thunderstruck Motors has donated an
Etek Motor. Plasma Boy Racing - our own John Wayland has donated some
Plasma Boy Shirts. SEVO is donating an electric mini-bike. QuickCable has
donated some really nice crimping tools. . . and more.
SPONSORS
Harvey Coachworks
Maryland Energy Administration
Clean Cities of Metropolitan Baltimore
Thunderstruck Motors
Hi-Torque Electric
KTA Services
Plasma Boy Racing
Manzanita Micro
SkooterCommuter
Quick Cable
Sierra Club, Catoctin Region
Electric Vehicle Association of Washington DC
RACERS
These are racers who confirmed or expressed interest in racing
1) West Virginia University Electric Formula 1
2) Lawless Industries and their fleet of vehicles:
a) Orange Juice Dragster
b) NEDRA record breaker, AGNS Motorcycle
c) Nash Electropolitan
3)Darrin Gilbert's upgraded Pirahna motorcycle
4) Great Mills High School is bringing something new and hot
5) Mike Harvey's awesome Cabriolet conversion
6) I think Miramar may be coming up from Florida with their Porsche
7) Central Shenandoah Regional Governor's School 240-Z
8) Joe Lado's Destiny 2000 bright yellow Fiero
9) Chip Gribben's fleet of EVs
a) 144 volt Ford Escort
b) Dual motor Schwinn Scooter
c) Custom stretched out electric cruiser bike
10) Bryan Murtha's Fleet of EVs
a) RAV-4 EV
b) Ranger EV
11) I think Bob Rice is coming down
12) Dave cover's new EV
13) Mark Hansen's new Electric Porsche, but I think he will be away.
14) SkooterCommuter's Kasea scooter
If I left anyone out please let me know
We would also sincerely like to thank those on the list who are visiting
the event.
AWARDS
We will be giving out trophies to the award winners. Hopefully some cash
will be awarded depending on how much we can raise before the event.
T-SHIRTS
Event T-Shirts will be available for sale for $20.00 each
Hope to see you all there
Chip Gribben
Power of DC
http://www.power.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
cell 240-687-1678
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database:
269.6.8/797 - Release Date: 5/10/2007 5:10 PM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fix your headline/subject... the law won't help NEVs go faster. Bumping
their controller, adding batteries, or clutching and heading downhill...
maybe then.
MEVs are different than NEVs. That's an important distinction!
I hope that all vehicles using the MEV exemption will be going safely
with the speed of traffic when in vehicle lanes, instead of delaying
traffic and spreading EV frowns.
Randii
-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Lough [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 9:14 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR
Subject: Washington State NEV's to go FASTER
Got word last night from Steve Mayeda, of MC Electric, the ZENN dealer
here in Seattle, that our House Bill 1820 which has both passed the
State House, and Senate, will be signed into LAW Tuesday, May 15th along
with 40 other pieces of legislation.
Any one who would like to attend the signing is welcome. Get a hold of
Steve at MC Electric at: 206 226-3500 for car pool information to
Olympia.
The ONLY controversy which arose in the whole process of changing our
State low speed vehicles from 25 mph to 35 mph, was a rather nasty
letter to the Governor from Dalmer/Chrysler/GEM Legal.. just a few days
ago. Here is an excerpt:
"Based on current federal law it would be illegal for a business
to
sell the proposed Medium Speed Electric Vehicle"
And:
"...allowing the MSEV bill to become law may draw unwanted NHTSA
attention to the State of Washington."
MY 2 CENTS ?? Big companies don't want to see EV's or NEV's or MSEV's
to become any more popular than they already are ! After driving many
NEV's round at 25 mph, it is obvious that 35 mph would be far more
popular.
It is my understanding ( others can confirm ) that Montana has already
passed a similar bill some weeks ago... and I am sure OTHERS will
follow.
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--- Begin Message ---
On 5/11/07, Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The needle on the BS meter has now spun around three times and has
flown off. :-)
You are concerned about 100 milliGauss. I have personally
worked in DC fields as high as 150,000,000 milliGauss. If 100
milliGuass DC was at all harmful, I would be dead 1,500,000 times over!
Speaking of which, I took a guided tour of Lochaber aluminium smelter
and power station last year. This is a hydroelectric power station
built in the 1920s, producing nearly 100MW. The turbines are
connected to huge brushed DC generators, feeding the smelting cells.
The conductors between the cells and the turbines are about 3 foot
square, solid aluminium, carrying more than 100,000 amps. When you
are anywhere in the vicinity of those conductors, it's difficult to
hold on to anything made of steel as it tries to get away!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dc feilds have all kinds of effects of the human body.
Accelerating bone and tooth growth etc.
Electric charged braces move teeth faster.
Vertebrates cab even regrow lost limbs with artificiak dc fields applied
to their stumps.
On Fri, 11 May 2007 10:39 pm, Bill Dube wrote:
As I said "Peer Reviewed" "Scientific Studies". This book you site is
_not_ peer reviewed and is _not_ a scientific study.
You must show, via a carefully run study on lots of randomly selected
people, that folks exposed to DC magnetic fields have adverse health
effects markedly different than those that are not exposed to DC
magnetic fields. (or those exposed to a different amount of DC magnetic
fields.)
Here is a paper showing a summary of the peer-reviewed (scientific)
literature on the health effects of magnetic fields of all frequencies:
http://www.bccdc.org/content.php?item=57
Guess what, DC fields are harmless.
There has been some genuine scientific studies on bone healing
acceleration with DC fields, but it is possible that the forces on the
magnets, rather than the field in the bone, aided healing. Causality
was not well controlled. Regardless, it was a positive health effect
rather than a negative one.
At 05:29 PM 5/11/2007, you wrote:
The needle on the BS meter has now spun around three times and has
flown off. :-)
You are concerned about 100 milliGauss. I have personally
worked in DC fields as high as 150,000,000 milliGauss. If 100
milliGuass DC was at all harmful, I would be dead 1,500,000 times
over!
The typical MRI scan is 15,000 Gauss. (15,000,000 milliGauss)
The Earth's field is about 300 milliGauss. I guess we all will die
from that very quickly as it is 3 times the amount you are concerned
about.
Again, show me the peer-reviewed scientific studies that show that DC
fields are harmful. There are none because DC fields are not harmful.
You sure you want to read them? They are pretty boring ;)
To get plenty of references to them and maybe not falling asleep while
reading about the subject get a copy of "Cross Currents" by Dr Robert O
Becker. In the bibliography you will have all the references you want.
And I never mentioned DC fields. Obviously the motors produce varying
fields no matter if they are AC or DC current fed. Both work of varying
magnetic fields otherwhise the motor would stand still.
No one said 100 mGauss will kill you just like smoking one cigarette
will
not or sniffing VOCs once in while a wont. One the other hand, All of
them
are considered stressors or toxins.
Please keep the discussion level headed. We are just asking resonable
questions.
Patrick Robin
Bill Dube'
At 12:15 PM 5/11/2007, you wrote:
I think it is the frequency (megahertz) that counts which I guess
maybe in the case of AC is what it is pulsed at. With DC motors I
don't know, they must be creating an electromagnetic field at some
sort of frequency. Even though DC is what is says Direct Current the
controller is pulsing energy to it.
Some studies I believe have shown certain frequencies to be worse
than others.
Anyway all motors put out emf radiation.
I just did a test in the shop using a TriField Meter, I tested DC
hand power tools, AC hand power tools, a drill press and band saw,
and a 3-phase industrial grinder. All of them had electromagnetic
fields which varied between 4 and 8 feet before dropping completely
off. And were well over 100milligause up close. Using the variable
speed trigger vs. full on with the battery hand drill created a
higher field.
I think one of the theories is that we have evolved with the magnetic
and frequency field of the earth and all the electrical things we
have created are running at different frequencies and so mess up our
internal electronics.
Don't worry about the Gauss meter reading when the BS meter is pegged.
Yes there is controversy over this and for example: Cell Phones,
Chemicals in food, Genetic Engineering, Global Warming, Pollution
from SUV's :), Aliens, Nuclear Power, Mac's vs. PC's... the list goes
on. They used to spray DDT on children to kill mosquitoes.(shrug)
I am not claiming anything... (besides my tests I mentioned in the
shop :)
Cheers,
Tehben
--
Patrick Robin
http://atelierrobin.net
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
See link below ...
http://www.batteriesandbutter.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=XL-205F&Category_Code=sa36v
This is less expensive than my flooded and look at
what you are getting. Or, are you really getting what
I think you are getting ???
XenoEnergy XL-205F D Size 3.6 Volt 19Ah Lithium
Battery $13/ea
3.6 x 19 = 68.4 Watt Hours / $13 = $0.19 / Watt Hour
Steve
____________________________________________________________________________________You
snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck
in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Got a spreadsheet? I'm new to all these calculations. It would be
>> helpful for me to examine your equations.
Steve> One is available here:
Steve> http://www.evconvert.com/batteries.zip
Steve> Also, check around his site, he has some other tools you may find
Steve> handy.
Thanks, yes. I've been mixing and matching options in the EV Calculator:
http://www.evconvert.com/tools/evcalc/
By just sort of randomly selecting options I came up with what would appear
to be the ultimate setup:
1970 Porsche 914
B and S Etek motor
Trojan SCS200 batteries
Zilla 1k controller
According to the calculator I ought to be able to get (for example) 727.1
mile range in any gear at 50mph. Not too shabby. I wonder why everyone
isn't using that setup. ;-) (I sent a note to the website's owner.)
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
"The hippies and the hipsters did some great stuff in the sixties,
but the geeks pulled their weight too." -- Billy Bragg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
These are >non rechargeable< batteries !
Cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait du volant, quel carburant choisiriez-vous
?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Powers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ev" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 1:18 PM
Subject: Lithium for $0.19 / Watt Hour Is this for real?
See link below ...
http://www.batteriesandbutter.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=XL-205F&Category_Code=sa36v
This is less expensive than my flooded and look at
what you are getting. Or, are you really getting what
I think you are getting ???
XenoEnergy XL-205F D Size 3.6 Volt 19Ah Lithium
Battery $13/ea
3.6 x 19 = 68.4 Watt Hours / $13 = $0.19 / Watt Hour
Steve
____________________________________________________________________________________You
snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck
in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't think those are rechargable?
----- Original Message ----
From: Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 4:18:49 AM
Subject: Lithium for $0.19 / Watt Hour Is this for real?
See link below ...
http://www.batteriesandbutter.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=XL-205F&Category_Code=sa36v
This is less expensive than my flooded and look at
what you are getting. Or, are you really getting what
I think you are getting ???
XenoEnergy XL-205F D Size 3.6 Volt 19Ah Lithium
Battery $13/ea
3.6 x 19 = 68.4 Watt Hours / $13 = $0.19 / Watt Hour
Steve
____________________________________________________________________________________You
snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck
in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Steve Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Motor equations
Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 19:25:28 -0700
On Fri, 2007-05-11 at 13:51 -0700, Roger Stockton wrote:
<snip>
> Some people add external blowers to give the motor more cooling
> air, especially at low speeds where the internal fan is less effective.
>
Thanks, that clears up that aspect of the issue.
> > I'd do that, but the whole reason I started looking into this
> > is that I *do* need some confidence in the numbers at the low
> > RPM/high torque extreme because I actually need more RPM at
> > the higher torque levels if I'm going to climb some 8% grades
> > at 50 mph or so.
>
> More RPM at the same (high) torque suggests that you need to run more
> voltage than what the curves are for.
I am aware that more volts would help; however, I'm trying to determine
the *lowest* voltage pack that would work, since increasing the pack
voltage significantly will also signficantly raise my battery costs (at
least at the prices I assume I'll be paying).
> This is a problem with the
> curve-fit model used by the calculator: it may fit the motor curve you
> plug in for a specific voltage, but may not accurately reflect the
> behaviour if try to simulate the motor with a different pack voltage.
I understand. One thing I am doing is using the existing curves to try
to get a feeling for how much error is introduced when moving from one
curve to another. I know the fit won't be perfect and my experimentation
may, in the end, only convince me that an accurate enough simulation is
unobtainable.
>
> What I'd be more concerned with here is how long that 8% grade is, and
> what power for how long is required to climb it. Check the motor
> thermal specs to see if it can even sustain the required power level for
> the required time without overheating.
Have done. The best info I've obtained on the motor is that at 144v, it
will do 48.8 HP for five minutes. If anyone can give me an idea of
roughly how much I can increase that rating for a period of about two
minutes, it would help (assuming the 48.8 is realistic). (The EVParts
tech guy left me with the impression this would be no problem, but other
opinions/experiences would be valued.)
Here is one approach to get a handle on that question:
If we assume that all of the heat generated in that 5 minute power burst
goes into heating the motor, then we can have about 2 1/2 times as much heat
generation ( in watts, for example) for two minutes and get the same
temperature rise. (This is not exactly true, because the motor does lose
some heat to the air during this time, but it's a place to start.)
At 144V and 48.8 HP, ( if we assume an efficiency of 90%) the motor is
drawing 281 amps. To get 2 1/2 times the heating ( resistive losses) in the
motor, we need 1.58 times the current ( since the resistive losses are
proportional to the square of the current). So, we could have 1.58 x 281
amps, or 444 amps for 2 minutes. This would give us ( assuming the same 90%
efficiency) about 77 HP.
In real life, this would probably be a bit less for two reasons : the motor
efficiency probably drops at currents that high, and there is probably more
motor cooling during five minutes compared to two minutes. Both effects
would drop the allowable 2 minute power to something less than 77 HP.
My guess would be about 70 HP.
Phil
--Steve
_________________________________________________________________
More photos, more messages, more storageget 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe> These are >non rechargeable< batteries !
Maybe they would be good for the Grassroots Challenge. ;-)
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
"The hippies and the hipsters did some great stuff in the sixties,
but the geeks pulled their weight too." -- Billy Bragg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Please ignore. That isn't a great deal at all because
it is a primary battery good for only 1 cycle ...
Sorry about that.
Steve
> See link below ...
>
>
http://www.batteriesandbutter.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=XL-205F&Category_Code=sa36v
>
>
> This is less expensive than my flooded and look at
> what you are getting. Or, are you really getting
> what
> I think you are getting ???
>
>
> XenoEnergy XL-205F D Size 3.6 Volt 19Ah Lithium
> Battery $13/ea
>
> 3.6 x 19 = 68.4 Watt Hours / $13 = $0.19 / Watt Hour
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________You
> snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck
> in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
>
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html
>
____________________________________________________________________________________Need
a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've had my battery pack for almost a year. I've been charging my pack
almost every night. However, I rarely if ever drive more than 10 miles in a
day.
Now it seems like the pack is running down much quicker than when I first
got it. The charge starts out at a little over 130 volts and then seems to
drop like a rock.
I also note that the amp draw from a standing stop seems really high
300-400++
Should I be running or should I have run the pack down more rather than
charging it up every night
Any impute would be helpful.
Joe
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--- Begin Message ---
>>>> Get a *big* old forklift motor, and have Jim Husted work his
>>>> magic on it.
>
>>> You'd have to pay him his fair market value, or deduct that
>>> amount if he did it for free. Plus, unless you live in Oregon,
>>> you'd have to deduct the shipping costs.
>
> I haven't read the rules; do they really expect shipping expenses to be
> included in that $2007? That would mean no one but locals could even
> participate, because you could blow your entire budget just transporting
> yourself and your car there.
They do say transportation costs count, but I got the impression they
meant shipping costs on parts, engines etc. and not the cost of shipping
the vehicle to the race.
> There's one more approach that's rarely used, but might work here. If you
> lack the money and skills to design and build it yourself, sometimes you
> can inspire othes to *donate* their talents for "the cause".
The rules cover "donated" parts and labor, you have to deduct their fair
market value.
However, your own labor is free.
>
> This doesn't mean (for example) getting a motor for free that should cost
> $1000 -- that's cheating. But it *could* mean having experts tell the team
> what motor to look for, where it might be found, what changes to make in
> it, etc.
Advice /probably/ doesn't count as a cost, after all free advice is always
worth what you paid for it.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've got some perspective in this area. I own a business that imports
clocks from China. I've also got a test engineering and quality control
backround. I've been to the sweat shops, sat down and designed products
with them, put my name on them, and troubleshot the failures.
The Chinese make some good stuff, and they make some crap. It's up to the
importer that is outsourcing to set standards and enforce them.
Unfortunately, all too many companies that outsource from China, go there
asking "How cheap can you make this?". That's why they are outsourcing,
right? So they tend to sell on price. It doesn't help that they have a
real shortage of engineers and quality control people. I went to a lunch
put on by a Government backed business development project. They have built
a bunch of business buildings, they have inexpensive labor, they are trying
to get foreign businesses to send over engineering and quality people to set
up manufacturing and employ their people.
So if you are looking at Chinese made products, the question is, who's
policing the quality and specifications? Many Chinese companies will brag
about how many foreign design and quality control engineers they have on
staff.
I do agree that in consumer products, the Asian market tends toward cheap
flashy junk. I blame this as much on the Japanese, who are a large consumer
of Chinese made products. At least in clocks, if you look at what they are
currently producing, you see a lot of what we would consider silly, chrome
plated, gadgety junk, for very low prices. In talking with their sales and
marketing people, they are surprised by our conservative taste, we are not
like much of their current customer base. Also, the Chinese tend to be a
superstitious lot, with no FTC enforcing claims made about products. You
wouldn't believe how many products they have that will guarantee you a long
and prosperous life :). Making outrageous claims is standard operating
procedure for consumer goods, apparently it's assumed.
So the bottom line is, if you are going to import batteries from China, plan
on being the quality control department if you don't know for a fact that
someone is handling it over there. You also have to be aware of any patents
you may be violating.
That being said, maybe I should start looking for sources. I know a lot
about importing, but next to nothing about batteries.
Marty
P.S. Regarding the comments about Chinese business men, and the value of
reputation, they aren't all bad. They are all over the map, just like
American business men. And like American business men, the ones you are
probably most likely to meet are the ones that are in your face trying to
score a quick buck. You have to look for the good ones. There are also a
lot of smoke and mirror operations out there. There are a huge number of
traders in Hong Kong and Taiwan that take orders from westerners and have
stuff made in factories in China (which they invariably call "their" factory
even though they are not). Many of these operations are looking for a quick
buck and couldn't care less if you ever come back a second time. Telling
which ones can be your trusted representative, and which ones are con men is
very tough, they look the same from here.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Well, except for some of the Chinese manufacturers, which rate their
cells
highly idealized rates, maybe something like the rate of the best cell
ever tested. Honesty and quality appear to be concepts that the Chinese
(as a whole) are slow to adopt.
Right. Why tell truth if it reduces sales NOW? It's just bad business
practice. When truth surfaces, change your market. Silly US companies
just don't get it - such simple way to make money making easier...
Talk to native Chinese businessman if you get chance. The more cleverly
he/she can make you believe in something (and so proceed in business),
the better businessman he is. Whether object of believing is real
is no longer really relevant (after deal is done or has potential).
Reputation is still (for most businesses there) not something tangible you
can deposit into account, and *only* account contents is indication
of business success, you know...
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I meant to use *new* starting batteries, not used ones. New SLI batteries
> are probably the cheapest bang-for-the-buck you can get.
Ah, well the original poster mentioned *used* SLI batteries.
So anyway, New batteries eat up 1/4 of your budget.
>> Actually, do you even think you could do it with BRAND NEW starting
>> batteries?
>
> In 1968, the Autolite "Lead Wedge" set a record of 138.862 mph at
> Bonneville.
> It used a plain old GE series motor, and twenty Autolite SLI
> lead-acid batteries.
Look how long it took John et al to get below 14 seconds using high power
Hawkers and 300+ volts. Even the white zombie can't match the leaders in
this race. Last years winner posted a 10.4 in the quarter.
>> Plus, unless you live in Oregon, you'd have to deduct the shipping
>> costs.
>
> Are you sure they require shipping costs to be part of the price? That
> would put anyone that wasn't local out of the running, because shipping
> *any* car and team cross country would eat up that $2007 budget.
The rules say "transportation costs" but they are listed in the section
about building the car and buying parts, so I'm pretty sure they are just
talking about transporting the parts.
>> If you were really lucky and stumbled on some really sweet details,
>> you /might/ be able to build a car that managed last place in every
>> event.
>
> Thanks for your encouragement. :-) Makes me almost want to try to do it.
> Say... the guy that bought my old ComutaVan wants to sell it...
These guys are going wicked fast in cheap cars. Even expensive EVs would
have trouble competing. None of the current crop of EV door slammer drag
racers can match the best drag race times.
I drawing a blank here, who's the guy with the LiPol powered autocross
car? He might stand a chance in the autocross, but that car costs more
than 50 times the limit.
If you didn't bother trying to be competitive in the drag race or
autocross, you might be able to do well in the concorse event, but that is
worth very little in the over all scoring.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tehben , I think your reply bellow is intended for someone elses post.
And you are correct about the motors field. It is not like a static
magnet. It is varying.
Thanks
Patrick
> Thanks Patrick.
>
> I never actually said I was worried about it. It is an interesting
> question to which I don't no the answer, either way. What I did say
> was that I think what some people believe is that certain frequencies
> are harmful and others like the Earths obviously are not harmful to
> us (of course not, we live here. martians beware:P).
>
> Milligauss is just the measurement of strength and since most stuff
> in the electrical realm is the "supposedly" harmful frequency the
> levels are measured from what is considered safe which is pretty low,
> around 3 milligauss I think.
>
>
> So for a DC motor, direct current is supplied to the controller which
> pulses it to the motor and since the motor is spinning it is not a
> static field like a magnet... right?
> How does regular AC work?
> And finally how about 3-phase AC?
>
> Bill what produces 150 million milligauss DC magnetic fields? (will
> it pull of your watch or glasses?)
>
> Please correct me if I am wrong,
>
> Cheers,
> Tehben
>
>
> On May 11, 2007, at 3:29 PM, Patrick Robin wrote:
>
>>
>>> The needle on the BS meter has now spun around three times and has
>>> flown off. :-)
>>>
>>> You are concerned about 100 milliGauss. I have personally
>>> worked in DC fields as high as 150,000,000 milliGauss. If 100
>>> milliGuass DC was at all harmful, I would be dead 1,500,000 times
>>> over!
>>>
>>> The typical MRI scan is 15,000 Gauss. (15,000,000 milliGauss)
>>>
>>> The Earth's field is about 300 milliGauss. I guess we all will die
>>> from that very quickly as it is 3 times the amount you are concerned
>>> about.
>>>
>>> Again, show me the peer-reviewed scientific studies that show that DC
>>> fields are harmful. There are none because DC fields are not harmful.
>>
>> You sure you want to read them? They are pretty boring ;)
>>
>> To get plenty of references to them and maybe not falling asleep while
>> reading about the subject get a copy of "Cross Currents" by Dr
>> Robert O
>> Becker. In the bibliography you will have all the references you want.
>>
>> And I never mentioned DC fields. Obviously the motors produce varying
>> fields no matter if they are AC or DC current fed. Both work of
>> varying
>> magnetic fields otherwhise the motor would stand still.
>>
>> No one said 100 mGauss will kill you just like smoking one
>> cigarette will
>> not or sniffing VOCs once in while a wont. One the other hand, All
>> of them
>> are considered stressors or toxins.
>>
>> Please keep the discussion level headed. We are just asking resonable
>> questions.
>>
>> Patrick Robin
>>>
>>> Bill Dube'
>>>
>>> At 12:15 PM 5/11/2007, you wrote:
>>>> I think it is the frequency (megahertz) that counts which I guess
>>>> maybe in the case of AC is what it is pulsed at. With DC motors I
>>>> don't know, they must be creating an electromagnetic field at some
>>>> sort of frequency. Even though DC is what is says Direct Current the
>>>> controller is pulsing energy to it.
>>>> Some studies I believe have shown certain frequencies to be worse
>>>> than others.
>>>> Anyway all motors put out emf radiation.
>>>> I just did a test in the shop using a TriField Meter, I tested DC
>>>> hand power tools, AC hand power tools, a drill press and band saw,
>>>> and a 3-phase industrial grinder. All of them had electromagnetic
>>>> fields which varied between 4 and 8 feet before dropping completely
>>>> off. And were well over 100milligause up close. Using the variable
>>>> speed trigger vs. full on with the battery hand drill created a
>>>> higher field.
>>>> I think one of the theories is that we have evolved with the
>>>> magnetic
>>>> and frequency field of the earth and all the electrical things we
>>>> have created are running at different frequencies and so mess up our
>>>> internal electronics.
>>>>
>>>>> Don't worry about the Gauss meter reading when the BS meter is
>>>>> pegged.
>>>>
>>>> Yes there is controversy over this and for example: Cell Phones,
>>>> Chemicals in food, Genetic Engineering, Global Warming, Pollution
>>>> from SUV's :), Aliens, Nuclear Power, Mac's vs. PC's... the list
>>>> goes
>>>> on. They used to spray DDT on children to kill mosquitoes.(shrug)
>>>>
>>>> I am not claiming anything... (besides my tests I mentioned in the
>>>> shop :)
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Tehben
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Patrick Robin
>> http://atelierrobin.net
>>
>
--
Patrick Robin
http://atelierrobin.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Honda has plans to develop and sell a fuel cell car by 2010. It is the
accepted fact now that hydrogen is a poor energy carrier. All commercial
sources of hydrogen will come from fossil fuel. (Hydrogen from water using
electricity is painfully inefficient but possible) That means zero pollution
at the vehicle & more pollution at the source compared to battery electric
vehicles. Should there be active protests against the fuel cell & hydrogen.
I suspect the price of hydrogen will be either subsidised to keep it on par
with other dino fuels or the real price will be charged. If it is
subsidised the real price will come later. If it is not there will be no
acceptance of the product. If Honda makes good on it's promise of a 25k fuel
cell car what will we do. Buy it or protest? Lawrence Rhodes. BTW Why
not an energy efficiency "race". The car to finish the "race" using the
least amount of energy wins.............
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 2007-05-12 at 08:20 -0400, Phil Marino wrote:
> >The best info I've obtained on the motor is that at 144v, it
> >will do 48.8 HP for five minutes. If anyone can give me an idea of
> >roughly how much I can increase that rating for a period of about two
> >minutes, it would help (assuming the 48.8 is realistic).
>
> Here is one approach to get a handle on that question:
>
> If we assume that all of the heat generated in that 5 minute power burst
> goes into heating the motor, then we can have about 2 1/2 times as much heat
> generation ( in watts, for example) for two minutes and get the same
> temperature rise. (This is not exactly true, because the motor does lose
> some heat to the air during this time, but it's a place to start.)
>
> At 144V and 48.8 HP, ( if we assume an efficiency of 90%) the motor is
> drawing 281 amps. To get 2 1/2 times the heating ( resistive losses) in the
> motor, we need 1.58 times the current ( since the resistive losses are
> proportional to the square of the current). So, we could have 1.58 x 281
> amps, or 444 amps for 2 minutes. This would give us ( assuming the same 90%
> efficiency) about 77 HP.
>
> In real life, this would probably be a bit less for two reasons : the motor
> efficiency probably drops at currents that high, and there is probably more
> motor cooling during five minutes compared to two minutes. Both effects
> would drop the allowable 2 minute power to something less than 77 HP.
>
> My guess would be about 70 HP.
>
> Phil
>
Good idea -- thanks. And I like that number (70 hp) :-)
--Steve
--- End Message ---
