EV Digest 6765
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) BMS (Battery Management System (Was: 1-Wire Expertise)
by =?iso-8859-1?B?KKRQaGlspCk=?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: OT: What makes 150 kGauss?
by John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Charging timer
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: FS: never used PFC20 with buck enhancement
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Anybody done siamesed ADC 6.7"?
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Anybody done siamesed ADC 6.7"?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 1-Wire Expertise
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Plasma Podcast May 15th & other News
by Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: GRM $2007 Challenge - Brainstorming
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Motor equations
by Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Plasma Podcast May 15th & other News
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Motor equations
by Steve Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: BMS (Battery Management System (Was: 1-Wire Expertise)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Plasma Podcast May 15th & other News
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: BMS (Battery Management System (Was: 1-Wire Expertise)
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Honda Hydrogen Fuel Cell BOYCOTT?
by John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) OT: Magnetic fields (Re: magnetic field in EV car?)
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Anybody done siamesed ADC 6.7"?
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) John Wayland Interview Podcast on Vinnie's Garage
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) oops! - John Wayland Interview Podcast on Vinnie's Garage
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: OT: Magnetic fields (Re: magnetic field in EV car?)
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Seems like the right thing to do is put a little board on each battery. The
board would contain a small microcontroller with ADC, a IR LED, a monolithic
IR receiver (like those used in consumer electronics to receive remote
control signals), a high-current MOSFET and a resistor (light bulb?). The
board would only hook to (+) and (-) of each battery in the array. No data
cabling. 2 wires, that's it.
The units would all be identical, but contain a unique serial number in the
firmware. A central controller would then poll the individual units via
40khz IR signals. The units would respond the same way. The central
controller can then order the load on and off for equalization of the pack
when charging.
The IR effectively galvanically isolates the whole mess and makes it
unlikely an accident could occur. The IR would readily bounce all around
battery enclosures and make a reliable 2-way communication system with no
wires and very low cost. The IR LED/Receiver are commodity items and cost
pennies.
The little boards would thus be cheap and easy to make, and very safe with
no possibility of shorts, etc.
Open-source the firmware and PCB design. Maybe a group-buy of the little
PCBs.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: 1-Wire Expertise
Lee Hart wrote:
>> Why have a computer on every battery? If all he want to do is measure
>> each battery's voltage, all that's needed is a central "box" to
>> measure voltage (could be just a multimeter or analog meter), and the
>> relays to select which battery it measures. If you don't like
>> mechanical relays, use solid state relays.
Victor Tikhonov replied:
I suppose because entire microcomputer (controller with its I/Os, PICs
for sure) is cheaper these days than one single mechanical relay, esp.
good one.
Price doesn't matter if it's the wrong part for the job. A nail is cheaper
than a screw; but we don't put cars together with nails.
For this application, you need a way to measure an *isolated* voltage. A
1-wire chip, or a micro won't do this. The key part is whatever provides
the isolation. I think a relay is the cheapest part that can do this.
How about using a capacitor to store the voltage from any given battery?
Switch the capacitor to battery N. Disconnect it (no load, so it holds the
voltage). Switch it to your measurement circuit (which draws negligible
current so it won't load down the capacitor voltage). Disconnect it, and
switch it to battery N+1, etc.
Resistor R1 in series with the capacitor limits the peak charge/discharge
current, which will extend relay life. It also filters noise on the
battery so you won't get an instantaneous reading based on noise. You
could instead use one resistor per battery, in each battery lead, as a
fuse if you like.
Kodd K1
_______/ ________________/ ____
| | | __|__+
| Keven | | K2 ___ battery 1
| ___/ __| | ____/ ____| -
| | | | | __|__+
__________ | | R1 > | | K3 ___ battery 2
| +|___| | 100 > |__ | ___/ ____|
| central | | | > | | __|__+
| voltage | | | C1 _|_ | | K4 ___ battery 3
| monitor -|__ | __| 1uF ___ | |____/ ____| -
|__________| | | | | | __|__+
| | Kodd | | | K5 ___ battery 4
| |___/ __| |__ | ___/ ____| -
| | | __|__+
| Keven | | K6 ___ battery 5
|_______/ __|________|____/ ____| -
This circuit has exactly one SPST relay per battery, plus five for the
even/odd reversing circuit and the end of the series string of batteries.
An SPST reed relay only costs about $0.50, so that's about 50 cents per
battery for an isolated measurement.
Now you can use your micro to measure the voltage on the capacitor, and
switch all those relays. But you only need *one* of them, not one per
battery.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill I have a question. Are you talking about magnetic fields as in a
an electromagnet when you refer to "DC magnetic fields"?
There is a difference, isn't there, between electromagnets which are
static magnetic fields that attract ferrous materials and
electromagnetic fields caused by rotating motors (DC and AC) and
inverters PWM controllers etc. which do not attract ferrous materials?
The issue in an EV that is being discussed is not about magnetic
fields i.e. magnets but rather electromagnetic fields created from
pulsing electricity.
I am no expert and am only trying to make sense out of this through
what understanding I have of electricity and magnetism.
Tehben
On May 12, 2007, at 11:19 AM, Bill Dube wrote:
So what would be the effect of routine exposure to 15,000 Gauss
over many years?
I think the effect would be healthy skepticism about any ill
effects of tiny DC magnetic fields.
Bill Dube'
At 09:53 AM 5/12/2007, you wrote:
Yes,
DC and varying fields do have eccefts on living organisms. Mainly in
situations where cells are multiplicating. But the problem is that
it is
all a matter of dosage. There is a very fine line between normal cell
multiplication and abnormal one. Anything that affects cell
multiplication, be it drug molecules or EM fields can have both a
good and
controlled effect or go overboard and cause uncontrolled
multiplication.
The body works in a fine tuned way, a perfect balancing act.
Patrick Robin
> Dc feilds have all kinds of effects of the human body.
>
> Accelerating bone and tooth growth etc.
>
> Electric charged braces move teeth faster.
> Vertebrates cab even regrow lost limbs with artificiak dc fields
applied
> to their stumps.
>
>
> On Fri, 11 May 2007 10:39 pm, Bill Dube wrote:
>> As I said "Peer Reviewed" "Scientific Studies". This book you
site is
>> _not_ peer reviewed and is _not_ a scientific study.
>>
>> You must show, via a carefully run study on lots of randomly
selected
>> people, that folks exposed to DC magnetic fields have adverse
health
>> effects markedly different than those that are not exposed to DC
>> magnetic fields. (or those exposed to a different amount of DC
magnetic
>> fields.)
>>
>> Here is a paper showing a summary of the peer-reviewed
(scientific)
>> literature on the health effects of magnetic fields of all
frequencies:
>> http://www.bccdc.org/content.php?item=57
>>
>> Guess what, DC fields are harmless.
>>
>> There has been some genuine scientific studies on bone
healing
>> acceleration with DC fields, but it is possible that the forces
on the
>> magnets, rather than the field in the bone, aided healing.
Causality
>> was not well controlled. Regardless, it was a positive health
effect
>> rather than a negative one.
>>
>>
>> At 05:29 PM 5/11/2007, you wrote:
>>
>>>> The needle on the BS meter has now spun around three times
and has
>>>> flown off. :-)
>>>>
>>>> You are concerned about 100 milliGauss. I have
personally
>>>> worked in DC fields as high as 150,000,000 milliGauss. If 100
>>>> milliGuass DC was at all harmful, I would be dead 1,500,000
times
>>>> over!
>>>>
>>>> The typical MRI scan is 15,000 Gauss. (15,000,000 milliGauss)
>>>>
>>>> The Earth's field is about 300 milliGauss. I guess we all
will die
>>>> from that very quickly as it is 3 times the amount you are
concerned
>>>> about.
>>>>
>>>> Again, show me the peer-reviewed scientific studies that
show that DC
>>>> fields are harmful. There are none because DC fields are not
harmful.
>>>
>>> You sure you want to read them? They are pretty boring ;)
>>>
>>> To get plenty of references to them and maybe not falling
asleep while
>>> reading about the subject get a copy of "Cross Currents" by Dr
Robert O
>>> Becker. In the bibliography you will have all the references
you want.
>>>
>>> And I never mentioned DC fields. Obviously the motors produce
varying
>>> fields no matter if they are AC or DC current fed. Both work
of varying
>>> magnetic fields otherwhise the motor would stand still.
>>>
>>> No one said 100 mGauss will kill you just like smoking one
cigarette
>>> will
>>> not or sniffing VOCs once in while a wont. One the other hand,
All of
>>> them
>>> are considered stressors or toxins.
>>>
>>> Please keep the discussion level headed. We are just asking
resonable
>>> questions.
>>>
>>> Patrick Robin
>>>>
>>>> Bill Dube'
>>>>
>>>> At 12:15 PM 5/11/2007, you wrote:
>>>>> I think it is the frequency (megahertz) that counts which I
guess
>>>>> maybe in the case of AC is what it is pulsed at. With DC
motors I
>>>>> don't know, they must be creating an electromagnetic field
at some
>>>>> sort of frequency. Even though DC is what is says Direct
Current the
>>>>> controller is pulsing energy to it.
>>>>> Some studies I believe have shown certain frequencies to be
worse
>>>>> than others.
>>>>> Anyway all motors put out emf radiation.
>>>>> I just did a test in the shop using a TriField Meter, I
tested DC
>>>>> hand power tools, AC hand power tools, a drill press and
band saw,
>>>>> and a 3-phase industrial grinder. All of them had
electromagnetic
>>>>> fields which varied between 4 and 8 feet before dropping
completely
>>>>> off. And were well over 100milligause up close. Using the
variable
>>>>> speed trigger vs. full on with the battery hand drill created a
>>>>> higher field.
>>>>> I think one of the theories is that we have evolved with the
magnetic
>>>>> and frequency field of the earth and all the electrical
things we
>>>>> have created are running at different frequencies and so
mess up our
>>>>> internal electronics.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Don't worry about the Gauss meter reading when the BS meter is
>>>>>> pegged.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes there is controversy over this and for example: Cell
Phones,
>>>>> Chemicals in food, Genetic Engineering, Global Warming,
Pollution
>>>>> from SUV's :), Aliens, Nuclear Power, Mac's vs. PC's... the
list goes
>>>>> on. They used to spray DDT on children to kill mosquitoes.
(shrug)
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not claiming anything... (besides my tests I mentioned
in the
>>>>> shop :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Tehben
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Patrick Robin
>>> http://atelierrobin.net
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes,
globalwarming
> and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
>
--
Patrick Robin
http://atelierrobin.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I built a couple of MRI centers back in the day when I had a real job.
They aren't as powerful as Bill's example, but will grab a wrench or
screwdriver right out of your pocket and turn it into a missile.
But the really scary thought is for people (like racers or soldiers) who
have bits of metal inside. You might want to wear an ID bracelet if
thats you, I don't know whether they could break loose, but maybe.
MRIs, BTW are shielded by steel plate under the drywall. i don't
remember that it was very thick.
JF
Bill Dube wrote:
Bill what produces 150 million milligauss DC magnetic fields? (will
it pull of your watch or glasses?)
I worked in the Superconductors and magnetic materials Group
at NBS in Boulder for several years. We had several very large
supreconducting magnets. We had one magnet that would go up to 15 Tesla.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench wrote:
------------------
Go to Home Depot to see what timers they have for electric water heaters.
They should be rated at 4500 watt at 230 vac. I use one to preheat my hot
water heating system with commercial power about 10 minutes before I leave.
------------------
Both Home Depot and Lowes sell an Intermatic timeclock for electric
heaters. It's a little cheaper than their general purpose timeclocks.
I considered these first, but found they're made to run on a single
voltage. So if I want to opportunity charge the clock mechanism runs
on 1/2 its design voltage, with results that would have to be tested.
Also, the unit is a little clunky-looking for in-car installation.
Rich Rudman wrote:
----------------
Dip Switch #2 starts the timer on power up.. and there is no way to clear it.
This feature has been in ALL PFC chargers since day one.
Most don't use it, relying on the voltage peak to start the timer.
----------------
Right. It's just more convenient to get a proper charge every time by
starting the timer when you hit acceptance voltage.
I should clarify here and explain that the reason this caused a ruckus
on the list before was that PFC users assumed no manufacturer of EV
chargers would purposely set up the timer so it disengages if the
voltage drops (as it does in a thermal runaway event). Our assumption
was wrong. What we didn't know is that EVs are not Rich's only market
- he also sells to boat owners, who like the timer the way it is. Of
course, the assumption was irrelevant anyway - as Rich puts it:
-----------------
And.. if you fail to set a charger....anybodies charger correctly you can
start a thermal runaway event.
If one starts as you said, before the voltage peak is met.. then you are
going to have problems.
-----------------
That's the main point I wanted to make. I know of no EV chargers that
inherently protect against a thermal runaway. It's something that any
EV should be protected against, since it can occur even with a
properly set up charger. The protection should be external to the
charger.
Rich again:
-----------------
To trap this you need a Power on timer, and a peak detect timer.. and you
have to program them so one catches the other.. and you should have a
thermal feed back sensor in the battery pack... preferably on every
battery... to trap a thermal event..
-----------------
I think the simplest way to handle this is to have a basic total-time
timer upstream of the charger and continue to use the
start-on-acceptance timer mode in the PFC. You still get proper
charging every time. You set the AC-in timer for something longer
than your maximum charge time (determined experimentally). If a
thermal runaway occurs it will be stopped before any significant
damage can be done.
I'm going to get the McMaster-Carr mechanical timer. It's the only
one I've found that doesn't care what voltage goes through it and can
handle the current draw. BTW, this timer has contacts rated at 28 A.
According to the Manzanita Micro website, even a non-buck-enhanced
PFC20 can draw 29 A from a 208 VAC line. Rich, any data on the buck
enhanced version? I'm not averse to running something a little past
its ratings, but I need to know how far I'm going over the line.
If this timer works out I'll post a report. Maybe find a cheaper
source once I know who manufacturers it.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Derrick Brashear wrote:
----------------
I got the PFC20 when I thought dealing with Pennsylvania motor vehicle
code was going to be simpler; turned into a pain.
So I have a new unused never installed buck-enhanced PFC20 for $1800; Let
me know if you're interested.
----------------
Hi Derrick,
I don't know if I really want to ask this because I fear it will lead
to a tragic tale of bureaucratic idiocy. But here goes anyway - what
possible concern would the Pennsylvania vehicle code have concerning
your PFC20 with buck enhancement? I ask this because my Lectric
Leopard, with buck enhanced PFC20 charger, is titled, registered and
insured in Pennsylvania. I seriously doubt there is any mention of
battery chargers for on-road vehicles in the vehicle code. EVs aren't
on Pennsylvania's radar.
Maybe my car skated by because it technically isn't a conversion.
When you key in my VIN in the PA database (even though I bought the
car "new" from the original dealer in Delaware), the manufacturer
field comes up as US Electricar, not Renault. Maybe a conversion
invites more scrutiny.
I suspect you came up against some bureaucrat or state trooper who is
essentially winging it without the faintest clue about how EVs work.
It might be worth your while to start the process over at a different
location that ensures you deal with different people. Or if it's just
the guy at the garage where you got it inspected, go to a different
garage. This shouldn't be an issue. Feel free to discuss with me off
list if you like.
Chris
"I don't have a problem with anger, I have a problem with idiots!"
Hank Hill (one of my personal heroes), "King of the Hill"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anybody tried siamesed ADC L91-4003 6.7" motors? It looks to me like twin
L91-4003s in a series/parallel setup would put out WarP 11 torque at near 9"
motor cost and weight. 300 Ft/Lbs at 750 amps for under $2000 with low
rotational mass? That is a bargain.
Can anyone here set two of these up for me inline and make it bolt to a
chevy trans?
Thanks,
Marty
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Marty Hewes wrote:
Anybody tried siamesed ADC L91-4003 6.7" motors? I
Yes. Jim Husted has a nifty one sitting in his shop he put together.
It's beautiful!
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Why have a computer on every battery?
Victor Tikhonov replied: I suppose because entire microcomputer
(controller with its I/Os, PICs for sure) is cheaper these days than
one single mechanical relay, esp. good one.
Mike Bianchi here.
The 1999 Vermont Technical College Tour de Sol entrant had a novel
approach that had both one-PIC-processor per battery block _and_
excellent isolation. See the Tour de Sol Report for MooRocco in 1999.
http://www.foveal.com/ATdS_Report_1999.html#Report45
Jared Harvey told me about the battery monitoring system they have
built. "Our batteries, 10 in the back, 6 in the front, are monitored
by what we call our Bottle Cap PIC Project. We have these (plastic)
bottle caps with an little circuit board inside. We have a PIC (a
_very_ small and limited microprocessor) in each bottle cap with two
connectors connected across the terminals of each battery. It checks
the voltage across the battery and the temperatures of the two leads.
That way if your battery terminal is a little bit loose and it starts
to heat up, we can see that. They communicate with a "Boss PIC"
through fiber-optic cable, so we don't have to worry about the battery
voltages leaking -- it keeps everything separate and isolated." They
have heard of terminals getting very hot and causing problems, so they
figure their system can warn them long before a loose terminal
overheats and starts a fire. The Boss PIC communicates with an
onboard PC and over ham radio to the chase vehicle.
They intend to do the same thing, monitoring the brush temperatures in
the DC motor.
Inside the cabin there are the usual Volts, Amps, and E-Meter
displays.
--
Mike Bianchi
Foveal Systems
973 822-2085 call to arrange Fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com
http://www.FovealMounts.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On May 12, 2007, at 9:40 AM, John Wayland wrote:
Whew, have the PR floodgates been opened! The Car and Driver
magazine exposure has really raised EV awareness.
Great article too! That is certainly a way to get noticed.
[snip]
The Plasma Boy Racing web page is receiving on average, 11,059 hits
a day. The stats page shows hits coming in from countless gasser
type web sites, such as Cobra sites, Mustang sites, Import tuner
sites, drag racing sites...the list goes on.
You have a nicely put together site. Its a good read and the awesome
photo collection has been helpful too.
[snip]
One last tantalizing bit. I've given birth to a new name... 'Tri-
Zilla'! It's green, and about the size of three Z1Ks stacked end-to-
end.
#1 is under the aluminum hood of a Honda Insight and is being
tested on the streets of Oregon as I write this.
Oh fun - does Honda know about this :-)
More nefarious EV testing being foisted on unsuspecting Portlanders.
If you keep getting all this media attention they are gonna catch on!
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Coming in last place, or in the back of the pack, isn't going to surprise
or impress many people, if any.
The White Zombie and a few others turn in respectable times. They are
quicker than your average joe's DIY drag racer, and much faster than 99%
of production vehicles. People notice this and can appreciate it.
Now a EV race using budget cars, THAT has merit, at least in my opinion.
I still think you'd want a slightly higher budget though.
> Don't worry about beating the gas cars, we all know EVs can't be cost
> competitive particularly at the bottom of the cost spectrum, but isn't
> the point to surprise people and have them take notice?
> Isn't that the point of the endless promotion of White Zombie when that
> car is REALLY SLOW compared to a gas race car?
>
> Frankly, I'd like to see a budget-based EV-only competition, and make it
> real with wagers on who will win with a claim rule to keep it honest,
> but I know it will not happen. Maybe do a PINKs episode on EV racers?
> You know, lose the race, lose your ride. I'd put up a $2,000 car for
> that deal if there was a claimer that anyone can buy your entry for
> $2,000 to keep it an honest budget competition. But it ain't gonna
> happen, always a lot of talkers, very rare are doers.
>
> Jack Murray
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>>>I meant to use *new* starting batteries, not used ones. New SLI
>>> batteries
>>>are probably the cheapest bang-for-the-buck you can get.
>>
>>
>> Ah, well the original poster mentioned *used* SLI batteries.
>> So anyway, New batteries eat up 1/4 of your budget.
>>
>>
>>>>Actually, do you even think you could do it with BRAND NEW starting
>>>>batteries?
>>>
>>>In 1968, the Autolite "Lead Wedge" set a record of 138.862 mph at
>>>Bonneville.
>>>It used a plain old GE series motor, and twenty Autolite SLI
>>>lead-acid batteries.
>>
>>
>> Look how long it took John et al to get below 14 seconds using high
>> power
>> Hawkers and 300+ volts. Even the white zombie can't match the leaders
>> in
>> this race. Last years winner posted a 10.4 in the quarter.
>>
>>
>>>>Plus, unless you live in Oregon, you'd have to deduct the shipping
>>>>costs.
>>>
>>>Are you sure they require shipping costs to be part of the price? That
>>>would put anyone that wasn't local out of the running, because shipping
>>>*any* car and team cross country would eat up that $2007 budget.
>>
>>
>> The rules say "transportation costs" but they are listed in the section
>> about building the car and buying parts, so I'm pretty sure they are
>> just
>> talking about transporting the parts.
>>
>>
>>>>If you were really lucky and stumbled on some really sweet details,
>>>>you /might/ be able to build a car that managed last place in every
>>>>event.
>>>
>>>Thanks for your encouragement. :-) Makes me almost want to try to do it.
>>>Say... the guy that bought my old ComutaVan wants to sell it...
>>
>>
>> These guys are going wicked fast in cheap cars. Even expensive EVs
>> would
>> have trouble competing. None of the current crop of EV door slammer
>> drag
>> racers can match the best drag race times.
>> I drawing a blank here, who's the guy with the LiPol powered autocross
>> car? He might stand a chance in the autocross, but that car costs more
>> than 50 times the limit.
>>
>> If you didn't bother trying to be competitive in the drag race or
>> autocross, you might be able to do well in the concorse event, but that
>> is
>> worth very little in the over all scoring.
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On May 11, 2007, at 7:25 PM, Steve Peterson wrote:
Have done. The best info I've obtained on the motor is that at
144v, it
will do 48.8 HP for five minutes. If anyone can give me an idea of
roughly how much I can increase that rating for a period of about two
minutes, it would help (assuming the 48.8 is realistic). (The EVParts
tech guy left me with the impression this would be no problem, but
other
opinions/experiences would be valued.)
So it will handle around 24 HP for 5 minutes at 72 volts.
Actually, what you need is to know how many amps it will handle for 2
minutes. Then remember that the actual number of amps will drop
slightly as the voltage goes down (motor will be turning slower - the
fan will be turning slower.) Those amps and the actual pack voltage
(not the nominal voltage) will give you an idea of how much power you
can put out for a given length of time.
Also, unless you are at full throttle and the rpm is high enough that
you are above the controller current limit, the motor amps will be
greater than the battery amps.
The 9 inch motor makes quite a bit of torque per amp, but that means
less rpm per volt. I don't think it would be very suitable for an on-
road EV under 96 volts.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> One last tantalizing bit. I've given birth to a
> new name... 'Tri-Zilla'!
...and an obvious progression going forward.
Sing along with me:
"Oh no, There goes Tokyo, go, go, Quad-Zilla..."
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 2007-05-12 at 14:53 -0700, Paul wrote:
> The 9 inch motor makes quite a bit of torque per amp, but that means
> less rpm per volt. I don't think it would be very suitable for an on-
> road EV under 96 volts.
I'm pretty sure it won't work for me at much less than 144. What I'm
trying to determine is whether I would need to run higher than that. If
it turned out I could get by with a pack between 120 and 144 that would
be icing on the cake, but I'm not counting on it.
--Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
(¤Phil¤) wrote:
Seems like the right thing to do is put a little board on each battery.
The board would contain a small microcontroller with ADC, a IR LED, a
monolithic IR receiver (like those used in consumer electronics to
receive remote control signals), a high-current MOSFET and a resistor
(light bulb?). The board would only hook to (+) and (-) of each battery
in the array. No data cabling. 2 wires, that's it.
The units would all be identical, but contain a unique serial number in
the firmware. A central controller would then poll the individual units
via 40khz IR signals. The units would respond the same way. The
central controller can then order the load on and off for equalization
of the pack when charging.
The IR effectively galvanically isolates the whole mess and makes it
unlikely an accident could occur. The IR would readily bounce all
around battery enclosures and make a reliable 2-way communication system
with no wires and very low cost. The IR LED/Receiver are commodity
items and cost pennies.
The little boards would thus be cheap and easy to make, and very safe
with no possibility of shorts, etc.
Open-source the firmware and PCB design. Maybe a group-buy of the
little PCBs.
This is a good idea, Phil. I've used visible light in a battery box, and
it worked pretty well. The box had white styrofoam lining it, and the
light bounced around nicely, so a single sensor could see the light from
any sender.
I wonder about the cost, though. The IR receivers I see cost dollars,
not pennies. Do you have any examples in mind? Also, the micro may need
to be more powerful than you think; network protocols often require a
large amount of computing resources.
An open source project is a worthy goal, but too often people use the
name to mean, "I want somebody else to develop it for me for free." I'm
not sure how to inspire a group of people to work together on such a
project.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dual Z2k's would be a ..... Quad-Zilla :-)
BUt then three Z2k's would be a....Six Pac O'Juice :-)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Randy Burleson
> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 2:06 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Plasma Podcast May 15th & other News
>
>
> > One last tantalizing bit. I've given birth to a
> > new name... 'Tri-Zilla'!
>
> ...and an obvious progression going forward.
>
> Sing along with me:
> "Oh no, There goes Tokyo, go, go, Quad-Zilla..."
>
> Randii
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I used the TSOP1740 in a project a few years ago. I think I bought 100 of
them for about 40 cents each. Pretty cheap!
http://www.vishay.com/docs/82030/82030.pdf
You may be thinking of FastIR/IRDA or similar. Too costly, and no need to
invoke the complex protocols.
The Micros can be very small/low power. The protocol is very simple
because of the low data rate requirement. I can do it in a few hundred
lines of assembly code, and run it on a ring-clocked low power micro.
It's probably easier, cheaper, and more reliable to use IR rather than
visible. The components ate cheap, and the modulated IR will bounce better
and not suffer as many from problems from interference. They work fine even
in the presence of sunlight.
If I build it, I will open-source it. Hurray if others want to build them
using my code! If more DIY EV'ers had a BMS, we'd save a lot of batteries!
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 2:26 AM
Subject: Re: BMS (Battery Management System (Was: 1-Wire Expertise)
This is a good idea, Phil. I've used visible light in a battery box, and
it worked pretty well. The box had white styrofoam lining it, and the
light bounced around nicely, so a single sensor could see the light from
any sender.
I wonder about the cost, though. The IR receivers I see cost dollars, not
pennies. Do you have any examples in mind? Also, the micro may need to be
more powerful than you think; network protocols often require a large
amount of computing resources.
An open source project is a worthy goal, but too often people use the name
to mean, "I want somebody else to develop it for me for free." I'm not
sure how to inspire a group of people to work together on such a project.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
(¤Phil¤) wrote:
Seems like the right thing to do is put a little board on each battery.
The board would contain a small microcontroller with ADC, a IR LED, a
monolithic IR receiver (like those used in consumer electronics to
receive remote control signals), a high-current MOSFET and a resistor
(light bulb?). The board would only hook to (+) and (-) of each battery
in the array. No data cabling. 2 wires, that's it.
The units would all be identical, but contain a unique serial number in
the firmware. A central controller would then poll the individual units
via 40khz IR signals. The units would respond the same way. The central
controller can then order the load on and off for equalization of the
pack when charging.
The IR effectively galvanically isolates the whole mess and makes it
unlikely an accident could occur. The IR would readily bounce all around
battery enclosures and make a reliable 2-way communication system with no
wires and very low cost. The IR LED/Receiver are commodity items and
cost pennies.
The little boards would thus be cheap and easy to make, and very safe
with no possibility of shorts, etc.
Open-source the firmware and PCB design. Maybe a group-buy of the little
PCBs.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Boycotting clean cars seems a bit off the rails?
Its quite a nice little car the FCX. Uses super-capacitors as a
buffer-storage.
Since it will be sold in the same market as BEVs and pluggable hybrids,
the market will probably determine which technology works best. Or what
I think will actually happen, we'll see a number of differing partially
successful solutions for a long time, from human-power to
hydrocarbon-based fuels and H2 and electricity from nukes, not to
mention a lot of fuel and electricity from coal, too.
H2 storage is currently possible via super-high compression; liquid H2 ;
metal hydrides; and a very long shot chemicals like ammonia.
So IMO the farmer and cowboy can be friends, fuel cells and batteries
can co-exist happily in the market. Lets focus on the real enemies,
greenhouse gases, high energy use and over-population.
Just my 2 cents.
JF
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Honda has plans to develop and sell a fuel cell car by 2010. It is the
accepted fact now that hydrogen is a poor energy carrier. All commercial
sources of hydrogen will come from fossil fuel. (Hydrogen from water using
electricity is painfully inefficient but possible) That means zero pollution
at the vehicle & more pollution at the source compared to battery electric
vehicles. Should there be active protests against the fuel cell & hydrogen.
I suspect the price of hydrogen will be either subsidised to keep it on par
with other dino fuels or the real price will be charged. If it is
subsidised the real price will come later. If it is not there will be no
acceptance of the product. If Honda makes good on it's promise of a 25k fuel
cell car what will we do. Buy it or protest? Lawrence Rhodes. BTW Why
not an energy efficiency "race". The car to finish the "race" using the
least amount of energy wins.............
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--- Begin Message ---
Magnetic fields are the same no matter how you produce them. The
field produced by a superconducting magnet in persistent mode is
indistinguishable from a permanent magnet.
If you change the direction of the flow of current periodically in an
electromagnet, you produce an AC (alternating current) magnetic
field. The faster you change the current direction, the higher the
frequency of the AC magnetic field.
If you change it fast enough, you get radio waves. Go even faster,
you get micro waves. Faster yet, you get infrared light. Faster yet,
you get visible light. Boost the frequency even more, you get ultra
violet light, then x-rays.
The reason I get so annoyed about these magnetic field fear mongers
is that they group all frequencies of magnetic fields in the same
basket. All magnetic fields are "bad".
The magnetic fields in the passenger compartment of an EV are mostly
DC fields. These have been proven to be completely and utterly
harmless to people. There are folks that claim that DC fields are
harmful, but they offer no scientific, peer reviewed, controlled
studies to show proof that there is some sort of harm. They offer no
sound theory as to how exactly DC fields would harm you. The
scientific studies that have been done show that DC fields are harmless.
Bill Dube'
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey,
Don't be giving my motor away. I've been drooling over that one ever since
I first saw it. I've been holding out pretending like I don't want it
seeing if I can get Jim down to a reasonable price :-) What do you say Jim,
at $125 a piece plus a generous $50 for your labor I can have them for $300
right? rofl
Actually, a siamese 6.7 is where I think I will end up on my truck one day,
but for now I'm just installing the one that we built over Spring Break. I
figure after I have played with this setup a while and I'm ready to upgrade,
I can find a suitable donor and extend mine. Then I won't have to redo the
adapter plate.
Of course you didn't mention the dual 7's he's got 3/4 of the way done
sitting on his shop floor. I think those would be a much more suitable
choice for anyone except me :-)
damon
From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Anybody done siamesed ADC 6.7"?
Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 14:18:52 -0700
Hello to All,
Marty Hewes wrote:
Anybody tried siamesed ADC L91-4003 6.7" motors? I
Yes. Jim Husted has a nifty one sitting in his shop he put together. It's
beautiful!
See Ya....John Wayland
_________________________________________________________________
PC Magazines 2007 editors choice for best Web mailaward-winning Windows
Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Knowing that many folks on this list do not regularly monitor the EVDL, I
thought this should be posted here.
Subject is electric drag racing and interview is about 30 minutes long.
Interview begins at about the 10 minute mark into the segment.
36MB MP3 here-
http://www.vinnysgarage.com/VG19.mp3
Enjoy!
~~~~~~
Roy LeMeur
_________________________________________________________________
Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? Youll love Windows Live
Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_outlook_0507
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry folks, this was intended for the SEVA and OEVA lists
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Knowing that many folks on this list do not monitor the EVDL, I thought this
should be posted here.
Subject is electric drag racing and interview is about 30 minutes long.
Interview begins at about the 10 minute mark into the segment.
36MB MP3 here-
http://www.vinnysgarage.com/VG19.mp3
Enjoy!
~~~~~~
Roy LeMeur
_________________________________________________________________
PC Magazines 2007 editors choice for best Web mailaward-winning Windows
Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On May 12, 2007, at 2:49 PM, Bill Dube wrote:
Magnetic fields are the same no matter how you produce them. The
field produced by a superconducting magnet in persistent mode is
indistinguishable from a permanent magnet.
If you change the direction of the flow of current periodically in
an electromagnet, you produce an AC (alternating current) magnetic
field. The faster you change the current direction, the higher the
frequency of the AC magnetic field.
If you change it fast enough, you get radio waves. Go even faster,
you get micro waves. Faster yet, you get infrared light. Faster
yet, you get visible light. Boost the frequency even more, you get
ultra violet light, then x-rays.
The reason I get so annoyed about these magnetic field fear
mongers is that they group all frequencies of magnetic fields in
the same basket. All magnetic fields are "bad".
All the theories on electromagnetic fields being harmful that I have
heard are only for specific frequencies. Obviously visible light and
the earths magnetic field are not harmful to Humans.
and for instance you agree that x-rays are harmful... don't you?
The magnetic fields in the passenger compartment of an EV are
mostly DC fields. These have been proven to be completely and
utterly harmless to people. There are folks that claim that DC
fields are harmful, but they offer no scientific, peer reviewed,
controlled studies to show proof that there is some sort of harm.
They offer no sound theory as to how exactly DC fields would harm
you. The scientific studies that have been done show that DC fields
are harmless.
Bill a DC magnetic field is a persistent magnetic field and is not
relevant to an EV because motors and controllers/inverters create
alternating electromagnetic fields at different frequencies.
DC motors spin because the current is constantly reversed or alternated.
This is something from Wikipedia on how a DC motor works:
"When the armature becomes horizontally aligned, the commutator
reverses the direction of current through the coil, reversing the
magnetic field. The process then repeats."
That sound like an alternating field to me.
So the electromagnetic fields in question in this debate are not DC
(static) fields, but rather alternating fields.
If there are any mistakes in what I have said someone correct me. -
I'm sure someone will ;)-
I hope this clears things up.
Tehben
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