EV Digest 6770
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Noodling Lithium prices and batteries
by "Jay Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Noodling Lithium prices and batteries
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EMF in EVs (and how to mitigate it)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Lectra controller blown
by Jim Dempsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Noodling Lithium prices and batteries
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Vehicle efficiency, wh/mile - cruise control
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Charging timer
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Noodling Lithium prices and batteries
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by "Patrick Robin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by "Patrick Robin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: My Watt-hour / mile with comments on battery cycle life and DOD
by "gary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: How does a 48v motor handle higher voltages?
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EMF in EVs (and how to mitigate it)
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: BMS (Battery Management System)
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: magnetic field in EV car? Never ending story!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Honda Hydrogen Fuel Cell BOYCOTT?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Lectra controller blown
by Jim Dempsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: BMS (Battery Management System (Was: 1-Wire Expertise)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: article: ZAP (OTC BB: ZAAP) Reinvents the Wheel with
Advanced Electric Wheel Motor Technology Partner
by Justin Southam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
11/58 = 14/74 , without math degree.
----------
reminds me of the old joke, guy at a fancy store folds and pins and turns a
piece of plain ribbon into a ladies' hat right in front of the customer, the
customer loves it, he says $200, the customer complains it's too expensive,
it was just a piece of old ribbon, so he pulls out a pin, gives it a big
yank, turns it back into a ribbon, hands it to her, "Madam, the ribbon is
free."
----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: Noodling Lithium prices and batteries
> On 5/13/07, Jay Caplan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Math correction
> >
> > > $2.75/lb. The amount
> > > of lithium metal in lithium carbonate is about 11/58. So that brings
> > > the Lithium metal cost to about $80 per lb (per 453.59 g).
> >
> > Li2CO3 is mol wt 74. The Li2 is 14 mol wt
> >
> > So, the fraction is 14/74 of lithium as fraction of lithium carbonate
> >
> > $2.75 divided by 14 x 74 = $14.5/lb of lithium metal, not $80
> >
> > > So, a 50AH Lithium cell has ~15g of Lithium metal in it. Which comes
> > > out to about $2.65.
> >
> > 15 divided by 453 x $14.50 = $0.48 of lithium in the 50AH battery, not
$2.65
> >
> > JLC
> Thanks muchly. Well, I got the 11/58 from a US resources report that
> said that for 58 million metric tons of Lithium Carbonate there was a
> yield of 11 million metric tons of Lithium metal. Perhaps they are
> accounting for processing losses?
>
> Also.. I can't believe I made that math error! Well.. I suppose
> arithmetic is the first to go when you have a Math degree ;)
>
> The good news is that I made the mistake in the bad direction.. the
> actual price is LOWER. :)
>
> Interesting, no?
>
> --T
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I ran into an interesting situation years back. Cobalt was a protected
mineral in the united states because of it's use in military ordinance.
This made anything with colbalt in it to expensive to make in the US. In
my case it was a BLDC motor with Samarium-cobalt magnets I was trying to
get a quote on. I couldn't understand why I was getting the run around.
They wanted some kind of commitment to buy before they would give me a
quote(like my boss was gonna let that happen) Eventually I wriggled a
quote out of them 17,000 dollars! LOL. I informed them that was over 5
times other quotes and was informed it was because there was 11K in
magnets. This was less than 2500 from a company in france, or britain,
or austraila, or korea. This apparently effected lithium-colbalt
batteries in the US also. it is not just the lithium in the cost.
<soapbox>
We as a country repeatedly screw our selfs, and then complain about it.
I have witnessed this with Plastics, Materials needed for batteries and
motors, Jobs moved enmass off shore because they are pushed out, by
other gready americans. We have to stop blaming others. Here is a
thought, maybe it is downright un-american to "buy american". If we are
about a free market economy and want american companies to step up to
the plate, we need to buy on value, period. Now if we can just figure
out how to prevent the abuse of the system, Government bailouts,
subsidys, etc.
I consider this list a special group of people who are starting to turn
this around.
</soapbox>
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--- Begin Message ---
I saw an Porsche 914 EV conversion a few years back and the front
battery wiring had been passed through the rocker boxes on either
side of the passenger compartment. One wire on each side! That
turns the passenger compartment into a huge air-core inductor!
Not quite. Placing a closed iron loop around a wire is how you build a
toroidal inductor! The iron significantly increases the inductance of
the wire.
However, the iron in this case is pretty thin compared to the current in
the wire. You would have significant inductance up to the current that
saturated the iron in the sheet metal rocker panel. Above that, the iron
saturates, and the inductance drops to what it would have been without
the iron.
The capacitors failed in his Curtis in short order and cooked the
controller, and he didn't believe that routing the battery wires in
such a way could have caused the problem, despite my insistence.
It certainly would increase the stress on the capacitors. They usually
under-size the capacitors in controllers to save money. The design
depends on the batteries themselves to handle a good share of the ripple
current. With inductance in series with the batteries, the capacitors
are forced to carry more.
But how much more? I don't know. You'd have to measure the inductance of
those wires.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
On 5/13/07, Jay Caplan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
11/58 = 14/74 , without math degree.
----------
reminds me of the old joke, guy at a fancy store folds and pins and turns a
piece of plain ribbon into a ladies' hat right in front of the customer, the
customer loves it, he says $200, the customer complains it's too expensive,
it was just a piece of old ribbon, so he pulls out a pin, gives it a big
yank, turns it back into a ribbon, hands it to her, "Madam, the ribbon is
free."
:-)
Well I realize that 11/58 and 14/74 are -very- close :) My error was
in inverting the proportion!
And I love that story.
As far as markets.. don't get me started! Markets need to be free but
they also need to be -fair-. The Japanese government, for example,
props up their auto manufacturing industry by giving 0 - 1 percent
loans on value to the big makers there. Japan also has national health
care, of a sort. Hospitals must, by law, operate as not-for-profit
entities. And so on. This means american makers have a horrible time
competing in Japan, and are effectively shut out of the market. China
is far worse, with direct government intvestment at huge proportions
into their fledgling industries and a slash-and-burn style of business
that ignores patents and liabilities. I mean.. who are you gonna sue?
The Chinese government?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 13 May 2007 at 10:03, Tehben Dean wrote:
> It seems like cruise control would be very easy to build into an EV
> controller... its all electronic.
> Wonder why its not done... or is it?
Brusa AMC-series (200/300/220/320/325) induction motor controllers had built-
in "tempomat," essentially a cruise control function. All you had to do was
connect two momentary switches to the appropriate points on the controller.
AFAIK, the switches were seldom fitted by EV builders. I suppose that was
because cruise isn't really of that much use in a vehicle with a range of
less than 80 miles.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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On 12 May 2007 at 16:31, Chris Tromley wrote:
> I know of no EV chargers that
> inherently protect against a thermal runaway.
Brusa chargers monitor the temp sensors in the battery. If the battery
exceeds a user-specified temperature, the charger can take a user-specified
action. Typically, it will throttle the charge current to some lower value
until the battery temperature falls sufficiently.
I would think that most other chargers which have temperature compensation
would implement something similar. It would be trivial to add it to the
firmware.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 13 May 2007 at 18:59, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> We as a country ...
Let's stick to discussing EVs, please, and forgo the political commentary.
If you'd like to respond to Jeff's off topic thoughts, please do so in a
PRIVATE mail message to him. Please don't post your response on the EVDL.
While I'm at it, I'd like to ask that we be circumspect in the discussion
about EM fields. This is one of those subjects which tends to generate more
heat than light. I strongly recommend taking it to private mail, too.
Thanks.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
> What study is this?
>
> Most of those studies which have found a significant effect did so by
> using absurdly high field strengths. Fairly close to putting the lab
> rats a microwave oven. While I'm sure this is an interesting case for
> someone, it's not likely to be applicable to everyday use.
>
> Danny
>
I don't have time to type a complete list but here are a few, A Google
search can produce more if you are truly interested. There are good and
serious mailing lists and conferences and scientific Journals on the topic
of bioelectromagnetics for those with a genuine interest this is a start
http://www.bioelectromagnetics.org
Bawin S and Adey, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 1976:
Frist report of ELF fields producing calcium efflux from nerve cells
Blackman CF et al. Bioelectromagnetics 6 1985 Ca++ efflux with ELF fields
Jafary et al Journal of Biological Physics 1983 First report of nuclear
magnetic resonance accelerating growth
And all the studies around the topic of cyclotron resonance in the context
of living organisms:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2164850&dopt=Abstract
Journal of Biological Physics 13 1985 Theory of cyclotron resonance.
Thomas JR Schrot et al Bioelectromagnetics 7 1986, Production of passive
behavior in mice by means of lithium cyclotron resonance.
Regards,
Patrick Robin
The fact is that very many studies are done each year in the field of
bioelectromagnetics. Many published scientists study the subject and
discuss it in scirntific journals. It is a full time job just to keep up
with the topic. No one can clame absolute knowledge of this field. Our
undestanding of living systems and their reactions to EM fields is
elementary to say the least.
> Patrick Robin wrote:
>
>>There are more sublte
>>effects like cell membrane permeability to various ions. That one is
>>easily reproducible. If one really pays interest to this field, one can
>>find literaly hundreds of recent studies that show sublte effect of EM
>>fields on animals and cell cultures. And the power content of the EM
>> field
>>most often has nothing to do with the measurable effect. Like you said
>>before, frequency has more effect than the power level.
>>
>>If we ever find such terrible link between em fields and cancer. It will
>>be extremely difficult if not impossible to back track our usage of those
>>fields. We will have to look at the cost/benefit ratio just like we do
>>when we decide to drive a car and assume the risk of an accident.
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>
>>
>
--
Patrick Robin
http://atelierrobin.net
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--- Begin Message ---
> What study is this?
>
> Most of those studies which have found a significant effect did so by
using absurdly high field strengths. Fairly close to putting the lab
rats a microwave oven. While I'm sure this is an interesting case for
someone, it's not likely to be applicable to everyday use.
>
> Danny
>
Forgot this one on the cyclotron resonance topic:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16457719&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_docsum
There are more on pubmed.
Regards
--
Patrick Robin
http://atelierrobin.net
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A car designed for 40 miles (absolute max and you are
killing the pack), don't regurarly take over 20 miles
unless you want to replace your batte every year.
That's where it seems that nearly everyone, especially
people new to EV's go wrong. Oh, I have a 40 mile
range, I'll do that every day. A few months later,
the pack is totally dead. Why? It wasn't designed
fot that kind of abuse.
If you need 20 miles, design for 60 miles. If you
need 40 miles, Design for 100 miles. If you need 50 -
60 miles, you are going to be buying a lot of
batteries and often.
- very well said!
- Here's a table that shows that from Deka;
typical VLRA life cycles
capacity withdrawn (%) Gel AGM
100 450 150
80 600 200
50 1000 370
25 2100 925
10 5700 3100
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Actualy most studies have found more effect when using subtle field
strengths.
Cells are more affected by field strengths they are used to operating
in.
On Sun, 13 May 2007 7:06 pm, Danny Miller wrote:
What study is this?
Most of those studies which have found a significant effect did so by
using absurdly high field strengths. Fairly close to putting the lab
rats a microwave oven. While I'm sure this is an interesting case for
someone, it's not likely to be applicable to everyday use. Danny
Patrick Robin wrote:
There are more sublte
effects like cell membrane permeability to various ions. That one is
easily reproducible. If one really pays interest to this field, one can
find literaly hundreds of recent studies that show sublte effect of EM
fields on animals and cell cultures. And the power content of the EM
field
most often has nothing to do with the measurable effect. Like you said
before, frequency has more effect than the power level.
If we ever find such terrible link between em fields and cancer. It
will
be extremely difficult if not impossible to back track our usage of
those
fields. We will have to look at the cost/benefit ratio just like we do
when we decide to drive a car and assume the risk of an accident.
Best Regards,
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, assuming stall load of EV at 96v.... On a Series-wound forklift
motor, if you keep it cool you'll be ok as there is nothing to demagnetize.
It's total energy that matters; Watts. Of course you aren't going to get
more amps without more volts. The more the mechanical load, the more the
amps for a given voltage.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: How does a 48v motor handle higher voltages?
I believe you might be confusing voltage and current.
Too much curent is what over heats motors and demagnetises magnets.
Raising the voltage just makes the motor spin faster, if you pay attention
to the current and keep it in specs. Of course you also have to pay
attention to the RPM to prevent the motor from flying apart.
You have to pay attention to the current anyway, it's possible to pump to
much current through a 48V motor even if you are only running 36V.
Oh, I forgot to say, the reason I said non-PM is because if you overdrive
a
PM motor, you can actually demagnetize or depolarize the magnets!
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: How does a 48v motor handle higher voltages?
Typically a 48v motor (non-PM) can withstand 96v for short durations.
Keep it cool and you can do a lot of abusing! Too high of power and you
may fry the brushgear/commutator though.
I've even heard of people sealing the motors up and immersing them in
oil.... You'll get friction from the oil shear, but if you have an oil
cooler, it's definitely going to say cool!
Some large truck and bus alternators are cooled in this way also.
The Prius uses oil-cooled motors, and they are tiny! 600 volts!
Tell him you are going to add oil cooling.... =)
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "childreypa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 10:08 AM
Subject: How does a 48v motor handle higher voltages?
I've been calling some forklift places trying to find an old motor that
I can use to get my project going. I am looking for a large forklift
motor at 48v. I mentioned that this was for an electric vehicle running
greater than 96v. The man said I couldn't do this. A 48v motor can only
handle 48v. This makes perfect sense but I know people use them in
EV's.
Is it the better cooling these motors receive in a car? Advancing the
brushes? Maybe the motor has to be rewound? Maybe the life is severely
deminished? How do I answer an oldtimer who knows plenty more than me
about motors that I want to use a 48v motor in an EV?
Thanks,
Paul
--
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Yeah, it would be a hard one to calc. You could induce eddy currents in the
rockers with complex effects. It's also really thin metal, so that may
change the dynamics too....
Either way, it's bad. Should have kept the wires twisted in one side only
as you mentioned. The less Looping the better!
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: EMF in EVs (and how to mitigate it)
I saw an Porsche 914 EV conversion a few years back and the front battery
wiring had been passed through the rocker boxes on either side of the
passenger compartment. One wire on each side! That turns the passenger
compartment into a huge air-core inductor! The capacitors failed in his
Curtis in short order and cooked the controller, and he didn't believe
that
routing the battery wires in such a way could have caused the problem,
despite my insistence.
Did you ever calculate the inductance of this "huge air-core inductor"?
Assuming the cables were 0000 ga and approx 3 meters long, I get 3.7uH
inductance in each wire. That is ignoring the metal enclosure. If we
assume the rocker panels act as a ground plane, then we get about 0.1uH
The effect on inductance of two such wires spaced over a meter and a half
apart and running through magnetically shielded tunnels is beyond my
knowledge to calculate, but I'd estimate it to be so small as to have no
real effect.
The problem here is simply the self inductance of the wires. Running the
two wires through the same rocker panel would be better, because the two
wires will (mostly) cancel out each others inductance as well as adding a
bit of capacitance (which is good in this application)
FYI: Whenever you run battery or motor wiring, try to keep the wires as
close as possible to each other, even twist them if possible. If they
run
through the passenger compartment, run them in a metallic conduit.
Whatever
you do, Don't run each wire through it's own conduit! You can end up
inducing a large eddy current in the conduits...
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "JS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 8:28 AM
Subject: RE: EMF in EVs
Everything old is new again:
About 1959 I was involved in a bio-magnetic research project.
We found an obscure research project IIRC by Thompson about 1906.
He studied workers around large transformers in the power industry,
and found no effects.
EV's were popular in that time frame.
John in Sylmar, CA
PV EV
--
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--- Begin Message ---
I was trying to point out that in our case, the experts already exist
as members of the EV list. There are many "evangelists" among them
who would love to participate, but lack the programming skills to build
the infrastructure. But they *will* need to be involved in the
selection of CAD tools, etc.
Of course! I meant evangelists of the -method- though. That is to say,
a few folks who love the idea of the OpenEV project in general.
I personaly prefer the modified BSD license, if for nothing else, its
simplicity. I could live with GPL, especially if libraries are tagged
with LGPL (lesser GPL).
Hm. Why do you prefer the BSD lisence?
Eventually, the "project" would have to own any domain used to
house itself. Would you be willing to transfer "OpenEV.org"
once the project was incorporated as a non-profit?
I didn't register it to Hijack it mate, just to snatch it up before
someone else thought of it ;) I'd very much like to chat with you
offline about specifics. Drop me a line!
Cheers!
--T
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There is always the possibility electric fields will have good effects!
Also perhpas a strong magnetic field in the car would serve to disrupt
the huge amounts of radio waves all around us now and basically keep
them away!
Could be good.
On Sun, 13 May 2007 5:36 pm, Patrick Robin wrote:
Thank you for actually reading my posts Tehben
No problem ;)
Again I personally have not come to a conclusion either way as to the
safety of manmade electromagnetic fields.
Me neither.
But I think that looking for a cancer link is the extreme and
catastrophic
case. Lets put it this way, does it really have to cause cancer to
start
taking the other studies seriously. As far as I am concerned, I read
all
the studies that come my way that talk about measurable effects on
biological systems due to EM field, good or bad. I find it very
interesting to see how living systems are affected in whatever way by
electromagnetic fields. I don't necessarily think and wait for
catastrophic findings to keep up my interest. There are more sublte
effects like cell membrane permeability to various ions. That one is
easily reproducible. If one really pays interest to this field, one can
find literaly hundreds of recent studies that show sublte effect of EM
fields on animals and cell cultures. And the power content of the EM
field
most often has nothing to do with the measurable effect. Like you said
before, frequency has more effect than the power level.
If we ever find such terrible link between em fields and cancer. It
will
be extremely difficult if not impossible to back track our usage of
those
fields. We will have to look at the cost/benefit ratio just like we do
when we decide to drive a car and assume the risk of an accident.
Best Regards,
--
Patrick Robin
http://atelierrobin.net
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
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----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: magnetic field in EV car?
> There is always the possibility electric fields will have good effects!
> Yeah! Maybe this thread, wire, will GO AWAY?!
For Heaven's sakes! Electricity has been in common use for OVER 100 years,
doesn't seem to effect us too much? Look at the rise in population,
nowadays!?Well, you COULD make a point with all the nutty people out there.
The Best Govt Oil Money can Buy, comes to mind. No names here<g>!
> Also perhpas a strong magnetic field in the car would serve to disrupt
> the huge amounts of radio waves all around us now and basically keep
> them away!
> Could be good.
> Ah! Yeah! My radio NEVER worked worth a shit in the EV anyhow. But I
don't feel at any loss as my Cassette Victrola record tapes work just FINE.
I guess CD's work too, but haven't made any yet. They say you can BUY
them,nowadaze, IF there was anything I would WANT to buy?
Manmade electrical fields? Gees! Any OTHER kinds? Other than a good
lightning strike as scene on You Tube if ya surf about enough.Great train
stuff, too!
My two Teslas worth.
Bob
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This blows my mind. What kind of plant? Nuclear? Lawrence Rhodes...
Posted by: "chuckkharrl" [EMAIL PROTECTED] chuckkharrl
Date: Sat May 12, 2007 10:06 pm ((PDT))
I work in the utility industry and there are power plants that
produce hydrogen as a by-product of the radiolytic decomposition of
water at ~ 2500 cubic feet per minute (1.3 billion cubic feet per
year per plant). These plants purchase pure oxygen to mix with all
of this hydrogen "waste" and run them through paladium to get an
exothermic reaction.....in short they burn hydrogen as waste. These
plants could be converted to harvest this hydrogen and perhaps
design them to produce even more hydrogen "waste". There are things
going on behind the scenes that the lay person does not know. Trust
in american ingenuity and don't fear the unknown.
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Doesn't the Earth's magnetic field protect us from solar radiation?
The EV's magnetic field might be able to protect us from the radio
signals the Dept of Homeland Security try to beam into our heads.
Danny
GWMobile wrote:
There is always the possibility electric fields will have good effects!
Also perhpas a strong magnetic field in the car would serve to
disrupt the huge amounts of radio waves all around us now and
basically keep them away!
Could be good.
On Sun, 13 May 2007 5:36 pm, Patrick Robin wrote:
Thank you for actually reading my posts Tehben
No problem ;)
Again I personally have not come to a conclusion either way as to the
safety of manmade electromagnetic fields.
Me neither.
But I think that looking for a cancer link is the extreme and
catastrophic
case. Lets put it this way, does it really have to cause cancer to start
taking the other studies seriously. As far as I am concerned, I read all
the studies that come my way that talk about measurable effects on
biological systems due to EM field, good or bad. I find it very
interesting to see how living systems are affected in whatever way by
electromagnetic fields. I don't necessarily think and wait for
catastrophic findings to keep up my interest. There are more sublte
effects like cell membrane permeability to various ions. That one is
easily reproducible. If one really pays interest to this field, one can
find literaly hundreds of recent studies that show sublte effect of EM
fields on animals and cell cultures. And the power content of the EM
field
most often has nothing to do with the measurable effect. Like you said
before, frequency has more effect than the power level.
If we ever find such terrible link between em fields and cancer. It will
be extremely difficult if not impossible to back track our usage of
those
fields. We will have to look at the cost/benefit ratio just like we do
when we decide to drive a car and assume the risk of an accident.
Best Regards,
--
Patrick Robin
http://atelierrobin.net
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
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I am approaching this from the other direction:
use as simple as possible electronics (a handfull
of resistors, opamp, powerFET and opto-coupler
to achieve the following functions:
- low voltage detect
(so driver can reduce battery current and avoid reversal)
- high voltage detect
(point where charger needs throttle back)
- current bypassing for equalization
The latter two are interconnected: high detect enables the
current bypassing.
Since I prefer a simple display on the dash, I will use
3 LEDs:
- red: low voltage on one or more batteries
- yellow: high voltage on one or more batteries
- green: high voltage on all batteries (end of charge)
The low voltage detect is somewhere around 10.3V at the moment,
the high voltage detect is 14.1V at room temp and compensated,
in the afternoon sun it drops to 13.9V (around 40 deg C) while
in the evening breeze it rises to 14.6V (between 10 and 15 deg C)
This temp profile follows the data I found from Bill Dube' about
Optima AGM charging voltages.
I plan to feed the "yellow" signal to my charger to make it
throttle back from its 10A to about 2A, which it then can hold
for a long time to finish charging and add 8% overcharge.
I will post a link to the schematic as soon as I have drawn
it, I just finished testing the breadboard.
Parts were cheap - I think I payed around $30 for the quad
opamps (one opamp per 2 batteries) plus opto-couplers, FETs,
some transistors, 2.5V voltage references, zeners, LEDs.
I did not include the cost of PCB, wires, resistors or
connectors, as I had all those in my inventory of parts from
other projects.
The way this regulator is setup is that it has a central board
with all the voltage comparators and opto-couplers, while the
power FET to bypass current sits on each battery + terminal
and can be controlled on/off with a single wire.
This makes the wiring mess become bearable, as each intersection
of two batteries needs a wire, plus the ends, so 27 wires
for my 26 batteries, plus the 26 Gate-drive signals for the FETs.
Each FET has a 1/2 Amp current limit transistor in its Source
circuit, to allow the gate drive to be on/off control.
That requires a grand total of 4 resistors and 1 transistor
next to each power FET. The FET bolts to a piece of copper
plate, which sits on the terminal and bolts down with the nut
that holds the cable lug (on the other side of the terminal).
The FET is the cheapest P50N06 I could find and dissipates
about 7W into the battery terminal.
(Rather low, but I did not want to overheat the terminal)
I really need to post some pictures...
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 7:23 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: BMS (Battery Management System (Was: 1-Wire Expertise)
I am dieing to get started on this project, but have almost no money (the
good part is, for that reason, I have the time).
Does anyone have a PIC explorer16 board and ICD they want to part with
cheap?
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Wow, they actually sell a 80 farad cap? How physically large is it?
I'm assuming they are just large aluminum electrolytics. If you heat them
up with too much charge or discharge current, they will let the blue smoke
out, literally and violently! I had a decent size one go recently and the
dielectric exploded into these little brown fuzzies shat covered the entire
room!
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lado" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 8:08 PM
Subject: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
Has anyone thought of using those audio capacitors to power a dragster EV?
I found an 80 Farad capacitor by Pyle which in a 120Volt set up should
give me about 10 seconds at 1000 amps. Five capacitors would cost about
$2,500.00. They come with a warning that says they can explode. What is
that about? What do you think?
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Maybe they just sold the one car 90,000 times. :-)
At 22:38 03-05-07 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Apparantly they have sold 90,000 cars so far???? To 75
>countries?!?!
>
>That's a figure I find very difficult to believe...
>
>
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Isn't that a cap for a 12V car system? Probably like a 16V rating or
whatever.
Now also note that 10 caps in series, with appropriate charge balancing,
can be a 120V cap- however, the total capacitance goes down by a factor
of 10x. So it would be an 8 Farad/120v bank.
Last time we looked at audio caps, it sure wasn't enough to get far.
Also calculate the max current in the cap (the foil plate would probably
melt long before the 1 kiloamp range!) and the total ESR. Caps will
also generate heat generally straight by the ESR*(I^2). At tens or
hundreds of amps this can make a lot of heat but the case is incapable
of dissipating much heat and they're often made of materials which won't
sustain high temps.
Danny
Has anyone thought of using those audio capacitors to power a
dragster EV? I found an 80 Farad capacitor by Pyle which in a 120Volt
set up should give me about 10 seconds at 1000 amps. Five capacitors
would cost about $2,500.00. They come with a warning that says they
can explode. What is that about? What do you think?
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