EV Digest 6771
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Charging timer
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Current Limit on ye-ol Curtis PMC 25
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters 400F 85-amps 5 seconds
230 amps 1 seconds
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Electro automive's 914 ev kit
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: BMS (Battery Management System)
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: My Watt-hour / mile with comments on battery cycle life and DOD
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters 400F 85-amps 5 seconds 230 amps
1 seconds
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: My Watt-hour / mile with comments on battery cycle life and DOD
by "Kip C. Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: magnetic field in EV car? Never ending story!
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Electro automive's 914 ev kit
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: BMS (Battery Management System)
by Steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Electro automive's 914 ev kit
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: ROY Can't Thank you enought
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Charging timer
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Charging timer
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Doin' the math
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: My Watt-hour / mile with comments on battery cycle life and DOD
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) $30K EVs available in Italy and Switzerland
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Orbitals vs. Optimas (was: Doin' the math)
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Current Limit on ye-ol Curtis PMC 25
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Washington State NEV's to go FASTER
by jessielectric <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Just wanted to ask cause I don't quite understand some of the electric
engineering stuff yet - I did a quick check to understand how much energy
a Farad is, and it's listed as an ampere-second. So using that, wouldn't
it take 10,000 Farads to put out a 1000 amps for 10 seconds?
Why is it the capacity goes down when they are put in series?
Thank you!
> Isn't that a cap for a 12V car system? Probably like a 16V rating or
> whatever.
>
> Now also note that 10 caps in series, with appropriate charge balancing,
> can be a 120V cap- however, the total capacitance goes down by a factor
> of 10x. So it would be an 8 Farad/120v bank.
>
> Last time we looked at audio caps, it sure wasn't enough to get far.
> Also calculate the max current in the cap (the foil plate would probably
> melt long before the 1 kiloamp range!) and the total ESR. Caps will
> also generate heat generally straight by the ESR*(I^2). At tens or
> hundreds of amps this can make a lot of heat but the case is incapable
> of dissipating much heat and they're often made of materials which won't
> sustain high temps.
>
> Danny
>
>>> Has anyone thought of using those audio capacitors to power a
>>> dragster EV? I found an 80 Farad capacitor by Pyle which in a 120Volt
>>> set up should give me about 10 seconds at 1000 amps. Five capacitors
>>> would cost about $2,500.00. They come with a warning that says they
>>> can explode. What is that about? What do you think?
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5/10/07, Chris Tromley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm looking for a timer to put on the charger's AC side. The fact
that the charger runs on a variety of input voltages and draws a
maximum of 28 amps is severely limiting my options. The only thing
I've found so far is from McMaster-Carr:
Hi Chris,
I am wondering if it's possible to stop the charger using the remote
control or regbus connector? Then you would only need a logic level
signal from your timer (or thermal switch, or AH counter) to disable
it. Such a timer would be easier to find.
Certainly it seems to be possible if you open the charger to access
the control board:
"Shorting pin 17 to ground will prevent the charger from putting out
power. This is the normal way to put the charger to sleep. The fans
will run and the lights will stay on but no power will flow."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, May 14, 2007 4:42 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Just wanted to ask cause I don't quite understand some of the electric
> engineering stuff yet - I did a quick check to understand how much energy
> a Farad is, and it's listed as an ampere-second. So using that, wouldn't
> it take 10,000 Farads to put out a 1000 amps for 10 seconds?
A farad is one ampere for one second at one volt. I should let more
knowledgeable people than myself respond to this, but I think this would
be true only if your load were able to draw a continuous 1000 amps,
regardless of the cap voltage which declines linearly during discharge. In
practice in an EV, the current from your batteries or cap bank would start
out low, approaching motor amps as you increase speed. (Horsepower, and
therefore battery current, increases with speed, assuming relatively
constant torque).
> Why is it the capacity goes down when they are put in series?
Google for "capacitors in series". For example, this page (the first hit)
has a good explanation:
www.play-hookey.com/dc_theory/series_capacitors.html
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I have a Curtis PMC-25 with a Prestolite motor in my Porsche 914 with 14ea
STM5-180 Ni-Cads (700lbs @ 84V). When I go into reverse coming up my 30%
grade out of my garage 5mph, the controller goes into current limit and then
I hit the bypass contactor to get up and bang, up it goes. I would like a
smoother way to exit my garage and was curious if there is a current limit
pot somewhere on this PMC-25 controller (I don't see one). I also notice
that when I get to speed it seams to do better with current limit indicating
that it may need a series choke with the motor. Isd a series choke needed,
about 100uH 300A to smooth the start pulses?
Thanks,
Mark Hanson
Roanoke, VA
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--- Begin Message ---
I've been keeping my eye on supercaps, and a recent check shows Ness has
a 400F 2.7volt, which can deliver 85amps for 5 seconds and 230 amps for
1 second. Isn't really too expensive either at $18 per 1000.
50 in series 120v, 20 in parallel, $18,000 would make a fast dragster.
But more interesting is using 50 or 100 of them for a 5-second 0-60
blast up to speed in a road car.
http://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Nesscap%20URL%20links/ESHSR-0400C0-002R7.pdf
Jack
Danny Miller wrote:
Isn't that a cap for a 12V car system? Probably like a 16V rating or
whatever.
Now also note that 10 caps in series, with appropriate charge balancing,
can be a 120V cap- however, the total capacitance goes down by a factor
of 10x. So it would be an 8 Farad/120v bank.
Last time we looked at audio caps, it sure wasn't enough to get far.
Also calculate the max current in the cap (the foil plate would probably
melt long before the 1 kiloamp range!) and the total ESR. Caps will
also generate heat generally straight by the ESR*(I^2). At tens or
hundreds of amps this can make a lot of heat but the case is incapable
of dissipating much heat and they're often made of materials which won't
sustain high temps.
Danny
Has anyone thought of using those audio capacitors to power a
dragster EV? I found an 80 Farad capacitor by Pyle which in a 120Volt
set up should give me about 10 seconds at 1000 amps. Five capacitors
would cost about $2,500.00. They come with a warning that says they
can explode. What is that about? What do you think?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just helped sombody install one of Mike Browns 914 conversion kits and have
to say how good these kits are . We did the instulation in 4 days and in the
end it looked better than any conversion I've done . We had a detailed bood to
work from and all the parts where there. Mike had all the details worked out ,
down to how long to cut each wire . This would make a great father and son
project , we worked on it non stop and had a few of those 4 am " silly boys
laughing at the moon" experances . The kit went together so will you just
couldn't stop working on it , and I only had 5 days till my plane left . Out
goal was to drive it to the air port when I let , 17 mile away . Last day was a
all nighter and at 7am we went for breafest to get a cycle on the batteries ,
back , charging , sleeping and to the air port by 1pm ,,, It ran perfect , Mike
Brown has done well and I would recomend this kit to anyone .. No welding
needed ,
Steve Clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Guys, if you want to use fiber optic data communication, I've got miles of
the stuff I garbage picked during a cable TV test lab redesign, new, still
on the spools (the spools are around 100 lbs). What is the operating
temperature range of the electronics you're considering? Some of us live in
pretty nasty thermal conditions.
Marty
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This drastic under utilization of capacity to extend life is for lead
acid for sure.
Does it apply equally across other chemistries? That could impact the
total cost of ownership/operation a bit.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Probably a naieve question, but when considering caps vs batteries, you are
considering that voltage output of a cap drops linearly with discharge,
unlike batteries? How much of that charge can you use before the voltage is
too low to do you any good?
I like the idea of using caps for a quick pulse of current, but that
discharge curve is ugly.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 7:41 AM
Subject: Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters 400F 85-amps 5 seconds 230
amps 1 seconds
I've been keeping my eye on supercaps, and a recent check shows Ness has a
400F 2.7volt, which can deliver 85amps for 5 seconds and 230 amps for 1
second. Isn't really too expensive either at $18 per 1000.
50 in series 120v, 20 in parallel, $18,000 would make a fast dragster.
But more interesting is using 50 or 100 of them for a 5-second 0-60 blast
up to speed in a road car.
http://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Nesscap%20URL%20links/ESHSR-0400C0-002R7.pdf
Jack
Danny Miller wrote:
Isn't that a cap for a 12V car system? Probably like a 16V rating or
whatever.
Now also note that 10 caps in series, with appropriate charge balancing,
can be a 120V cap- however, the total capacitance goes down by a factor
of 10x. So it would be an 8 Farad/120v bank.
Last time we looked at audio caps, it sure wasn't enough to get far.
Also calculate the max current in the cap (the foil plate would probably
melt long before the 1 kiloamp range!) and the total ESR. Caps will also
generate heat generally straight by the ESR*(I^2). At tens or hundreds
of amps this can make a lot of heat but the case is incapable of
dissipating much heat and they're often made of materials which won't
sustain high temps.
Danny
Has anyone thought of using those audio capacitors to power a dragster
EV? I found an 80 Farad capacitor by Pyle which in a 120Volt set up
should give me about 10 seconds at 1000 amps. Five capacitors would
cost about $2,500.00. They come with a warning that says they can
explode. What is that about? What do you think?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "gary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 7:37 PM
Subject: RE: My Watt-hour / mile with comments on battery cycle life and DOD
- Here's a table that shows that from Deka;
typical VLRA life cycles
capacity withdrawn (%) Gel AGM
100 450 150
80 600 200
50 1000 370
25 2100 925
10 5700 3100
Putting this another way, 25% DOD will provide about 10% more capacity than
80% DOD over the life cycle of the batteries for gel cells, and as much as
44% more lifetime capacity for AGMs.
Clearly this suggests that an extra 10% for gel batteries may be worth
compromising if it meets other constraints, but AGMs provide a much stronger
argument for accurately assessing range needs.
Am I missing anything?
-
Kip
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice wrote:
There is always the possibility electric fields will have good effects!
Yeah! Maybe this thread, wire, will GO AWAY?!
I couldn't agree more Bob, I am counting 53 posts on this subject.
Good thing I use gmail, makes it easy to ignore some things.
But... maybe there are 50 more profound revelations on this subject.
You can never tell.
~~~~~~
Roy LeMeur
_________________________________________________________________
PC Magazines 2007 editors choice for best Web mailaward-winning Windows
Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just helped sombody install one of Mike Browns 914 conversion kits and have
to say how good these kits are . We did the instulation in 4 days and in the
end it looked better than any conversion I've done . We had a detailed bood to
work from and all the parts where there. Mike had all the details worked out ,
down to how long to cut each wire . This would make a great father and son
project , we worked on it non stop and had a few of those 4 am " silly boys
laughing at the moon" experances . The kit went together so will you just
couldn't stop working on it , and I only had 5 days till my plane left . Out
goal was to drive it to the air port when I let , 17 mile away . Last day was a
all nighter and at 7am we went for breafest to get a cycle on the batteries ,
back , charging , sleeping and to the air port by 1pm ,,, It ran perfect , Mike
Brown has done well and I would recomend this kit to anyone .. No welding
needed ,
Steve Clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > I personaly prefer the modified BSD license, if for nothing else,
> its
> > simplicity. I could live with GPL, especially if libraries are
> tagged
> > with LGPL (lesser GPL).
>
> Hm. Why do you prefer the BSD lisence?
simplicity: 2 paragraphs instead of 2+ pages.
freedom: it doesn't try to dictate what you can do with the code. in
particular the GPL requirement that you provide the source of
*your* proprietary code if you attach any GPL code to it.
As a former business owner that used FreeBSD for its products,
I appreciate this as we never could have gone the GPL route
that would have exposed our IP. We acted responsibly and
returned back to the community most everything we did that was
not directly part of our IP. If we GPL things, we discourage
co-operation with the small businesses out there who are
struggling to build a business. If our efforts end up in
their products we are building a standard infrastructure,
allowing more compatibility of systems. If they feel they
have to avoid our "products" to protect their IP, we end up
with dis-array.
---
Steve
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the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
steve> I just helped sombody install one of Mike Browns 914 conversion
steve> kits and have to say how good these kits are.
This good to hear. I have a 914/6 which won't be converted to EV (too
valuable as-is), but 914/4s are plentiful and I'm overall fairly familiar
with the beast at this point. Hmmm...
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Electric
Vehicle Discussion List RCVR" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 10:44 PM
Subject: ROY Can't Thank you enought
> This is a WONDERFUL interview..... and one which should be POSted on
> the EVDL as well. ( excuse me if it has already been done..)
>
> Thank You to Roy LeMure for forwarding this to ME, and hope others will
> enjoy it. John Wayland has a gift of EV Gab... second to NONE
>
> (even me).................
>
> And John..... BOY you did a wonderful job.... First Class....
>
> For those who have 20 minutes to drule over EV stuff:
> 36MB MP3 here-
>
> http://www.vinnysgarage.com/VG19.mp3
>
> Hi EVerybody;
I FINALLY got there! Wouldn't up or download here, but did , FINALLY!
this AM. Great interview, John! Plasma Boy at his finast!And Vinnie was
good, too. Asked good questions. I'm preaching to the choir here, but we
have come a long way, Baby, since the Electric Fuel Propulsion and Citti Car
daze!!!
Now if and when the American Sheeple will join in? We hafta keep
hammering on, until there is more of a chrisis, beyond " Evil people flying
airplanes into buildings" as John sez.When there just ISN'T gas to be bought
at ANY price, at your friendly gas station,or rationing? Will Joe Sixpack
have to SEE a EV run at a Nascar track, beating out the gassers? A
Cannonball run? Would be fun, though. About as far out as a TGV train on the
NYC Chicago run, the 21st Century Limited? Three hours flat? Sorry, Jet
Blue, you're so Ninties! I'm NOT OT, it's electric!!! No high security. Just
go down stairs to track 14 , at NYC's Penn Station and GET ON!All we need is
a NEW RR line! For what we have spent in Iraq we could have one with
platinum, or Titanium Rails, costs more than mere gold!By the time Jet Blue
loads and taxis out to the runway and actually takes off, TGV could be
halfway through Penns slow mania! EV grins here!
At some time we will face an Electric World in transportation. Like the
EV it's HERE. Now!The EV's issues arent technical, but Political.
OK Flame suit on. Have at it<g>!But as David sez Off Line<g>!
Seeya SOMEHOW if Jetta is totally ready, at Power of DC
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes there are good effects, take the vibrator industry. This is where
the discussion would be more appropriate. On the Vibrator List.
Some folks here are freaking out over motors and wires placed several
feet away. With vibrators you just take all that good stuff and stick
it . . . nevermind. You can't get any closer to a motor then that.
Whew! Talk about your Eddy Currents.
That's one thing they didn't do on the show "Big". A giant vibrator.
Chip
On May 14, 2007, at 5:13 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: magnetic field in EV car?
There is always the possibility electric fields will have good
effects!
Yeah! Maybe this thread, wire, will GO AWAY?!
For Heaven's sakes! Electricity has been in common use for OVER
100 years,
doesn't seem to effect us too much? Look at the rise in population,
nowadays!?Well, you COULD make a point with all the nutty people
out there.
The Best Govt Oil Money can Buy, comes to mind. No names here<g>!
Also perhpas a strong magnetic field in the car would serve to
disrupt
the huge amounts of radio waves all around us now and basically keep
them away!
Could be good.
Ah! Yeah! My radio NEVER worked worth a shit in the EV anyhow.
But I
don't feel at any loss as my Cassette Victrola record tapes work
just FINE.
I guess CD's work too, but haven't made any yet. They say you can BUY
them,nowadaze, IF there was anything I would WANT to buy?
Manmade electrical fields? Gees! Any OTHER kinds? Other than a
good
lightning strike as scene on You Tube if ya surf about enough.Great
train
stuff, too!
My two Teslas worth.
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Joseph,
Those audio caps are not going to do the job. But
ultracapacitors can. BYU has a dragster powered by
Maxwell ultracaps. See
http://www.earthtoys.com/emagazine.php?issue_number=04.04.01&article=dragster
You can find more about them. Try searching if
interested.
Jeff
--- Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Has anyone thought of using those audio capacitors
> to power a dragster EV? I found an 80 Farad
> capacitor by Pyle which in a 120Volt set up should
> give me about 10 seconds at 1000 amps. Five
> capacitors would cost about $2,500.00. They come
> with a warning that says they can explode. What is
> that about? What do you think?
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________Get
the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware
protection.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Tromley wrote:
I know of no EV chargers that inherently protect against a thermal
runaway.
Any charger using an external temperature sensor can do it. A
temperature increase causes the voltage to drop (if the charger is in
constant current mode), or the current to rise (if it's in constant
voltage mode). All it takes is enough "brains" in the charger to
recognize that this means there is a problem, so it shuts off.
Any charger using the dv/dt algorithm will also do it. This includes
almost all large industrial EV chargers, some higher-end Lester
chargers, and a number of smaller chargers.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Evan Tuer wronte:
>"Shorting pin 17 to ground will prevent the charger from putting out
power.
Evan, on a PFC-20 or PFC-30, you can easily turn off the charger output by
putting around 4.5V on pin 2 of the external regbus connector. Something
like this (Rich, correct me if I'm wrong here):
Pin 1 (+5V)---+
|
\ SW1
|
>
> R1 1K
>
|
Pin 2---------+
|
>
> R2 10K
>
|
Pin 4 (Gnd)---+
Close SW1, and pin 2 sees over 4.5V. This is the same as the regbus
telling the charger to go into thermal cutback.
Bill Dennis
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Like David, I also did the calc's some time ago..
I put "my" in quotes to indicate the old YMMV type disclaimer.... our numbers
differ so greatly because my numbers included my local cost for electricity of
$.13/kwhr. That is not just a battery amortization, it's my total cost, to
compare it to the total cost for my ICE powered vehicle. I probably should've
explained that, I can be an idiot like that sometimes.
JerryD asked why the difference for Optima's and Orbitals. I too was suprised
by that. It's been awhile since I did the sheet and I didn't take very good
notes; but the numbers I picked at that time showed the Orb's to be less
expensive to purchase and have a higher life expectancy.
Most of my data entries came from an accumulation of many years of EVDL lurking
and not independant testing.
For example, the difference between the Orb's and Optimas. I believe, I based
the Orb's number of life-cycles on Ed Ang's Sparrow pack; at the time he was
developing a battery management system and was showing remarkable life from his
Orb's. The Optima life-cycle chart posted on commutercars.com is what I used
for the Optima's. The numbers I used were 350 cycles for the Orbs and 220 for
the Optimas, for 80% DoD. It's really not a fair comparison of those two, but
it does indicate a general range for those types. I.E. expect a "spiral wound
lead type" group 34 buddy pair to deliver about 220-350 cycles.
If someone wants to cough up $250,000, I'll gladly do the specific research and
report "real, tested, numbers for differing types."
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of David Roden
> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 12:39 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Doin' the math
>
> On 10 May 2007 at 9:51, Tim Humphrey wrote:
>
>> Out to 150,000 miles or more "my" estimated cost goes; from least to
> most....
>> (fixed width font)
>>
>> Battery $ per mile
>>
>> GC's .08
>> Lithium .09
>> NiMH .10
>> Orbital .11
>> NiCad .21
>> Optima .27
>
> I did this calculation many years ago, so the numbers differ now since
> materials costs have risen and the dollar has fallen relative to other
> currencies. My predictions reflect just about perfect maintenance, and
> use
> of each battery within its own specifications and limits, so note well
> that
> in a given application not all of the batteries listed below would be
> appropriate. (The "mule" for this situation was my own Solectria Force,
> and
>
> all the batteries listed except the golf car batteries [USBMC 2200] would
> have been appropriate.)
>
> FYI, a very good and valid way of designing an EV is to begin by deciding
> what battery suits your needs, then designing the rest of the EV around
> the
> battery.
>
> All that said, here are my figures :
>
> USBMC US2200 - 2 cents per mile
>
> Saft STM5-100MR - 4 cents per mile
>
> Trojan 27TMH - 8 cents per mile
>
> Optima G31 - 14 cents per mile
>
> East Penn 8G27 - 20 cents per mile
>
> Most of my costs are a fraction of Tim's. I'm sure that reflects both
> different calculation metods and different costs. However, it's
> interesting
>
> that many of the relationships among types are similar.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
--- End Message ---
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Jeff Shanab wrote:
This drastic under utilization of capacity to extend life is for lead
acid for sure.
Does it apply equally across other chemistries? That could impact the
total cost of ownership/operation a bit.
It applies to all chemistries, though the amount of the derating varies.
It's just that lead-acid has been around for so long that we have ample
data to demonstrate the effect of depth of discharge on cycle life. With
most other chemistries, no one has done the tests except on an informal
or anecdotal basis, or have kept the data private.
For example, Toyota keeps the nimh batteries in their hybrids between
40% and 80% SOC (i.e. uses less than half their capacity). Presumably
this is to insure long life, but they don't publish the data.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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hey,
It appears that the diminuitive Fiat Panda, highly successful litttle
car in Europe and especially on narrow streets of mediterranean cities
of southern europe has gotten a electric makeover.
see
http://www.e-mobile.ch/index.php?pid=de,2,21
Four doors, 120kmh top speed, range reportedly even up to ~150 km.
There is a discussion thread going on over at G-Wiz owners forum
http://gwiz.myfastforum.org/ftopic640-0-asc-0.php
Its apparently "just a conversion" by MES-DEA, and commands a high
price premium over its diesel and gas counterparts, but interesting
development nevertheless.
I wonder what the price would be if built straight in Fiat factories ?
-kert
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There are significant natural electrical fields.
Additionally very recently within the last few decades the earth's
magnetic poles have begun to dramatically diminish to the point
navigation equipment must take it into account. (Periodically earths
poles flip.)
Also it is interesting that all life on earth with a brain has evolved a
primary brain frequency similiar to the primary range of the schuman
resonance around 7 to 8 hz - not surprising since all life evolved in
this field.
A description from the net.
What is a Schumann Resonance?
Believe it or not, the Earth behaves like an enormous electric circuit.
The atmosphere is actually a weak conductor and if there were no sources
of charge, its existing electric charge would diffuse away in about 10
minutes. There is a 'cavity 'defined by the surface of the Earth and the
inner edge of the ionosphere 55 kilometers up. At any moment, the total
charge residing in this cavity is 500,000 Coulombs. There is a vertical
current flow between the ground and the ionosphere of 1 - 3 x 10^-12
Amperes per square meter. The resistance of the atmosphere is 200 Ohms.
The voltage potential is 200,000 Volts. There are about 1000 lightning
storms at any given moment worldwide. Each produces 0.5 to 1 Ampere and
these collectively account for the measured current flow in the Earth's
'electromagnetic' cavity.
The Schumann Resonances are quasi standing wave electromagnetic waves
that exist in this cavity. Like waves on a spring, they are not present
all the time, but have to be 'excited' to be observed. They are not
caused by anything internal to the Earth, its crust or its core. They
seem to be related to electrical activity in the atmosphere,
particularly during times of intense lightning activity. They occur at
several frequencies between 6 and 50 cycles per second; specifically
7.8, 14, 20, 26, 33, 39 and 45 Hertz, with a daily variation of about
+/- 0.5 Hertz. So long as the properties of Earth's electromagnetic
cavity remains about the same, these frequencies remain the same.
Presumably there is some change due to the solar sunspot cycle as the
Earth's ionosphere changes in response to the 11-year cycle of solar
activity. Schumann resonances are most easily seen between 2000 and 2200
UT.
Given that the earth's atmosphere carries a charge, a current and a
voltage, it is not surprising to find such electromagnetic waves. The
resonant properties of this terrestrial cavity were first predicted by
the German physicist W. O. Schumann between 1952 and 1957, and first
detected by Schumann and Konig in 1954. The first spectral
representation of this phenomenon was prepared by Balser and Wagner in
1960. Much of the research in the last 20 years has been conducted by
the Department of the Navy who investigate Extremely Low Frequency
communication with submarines.
For more information, see: "Handbook of Atmospheric Electrodynamics,
vol. I", by Hans Volland, 1995 published by the CRC Press. Chapter 11 is
entirely on Schumann Resonances and is written by Davis Campbell at the
Geophysical Institute, University of Alaska, Fairbanks AK, 99775. There
is also a history of this research and an extensive bibliography.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
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One of the most obvious differences is that Orbitals have a separate
valve for each cell. Optimas have two valves for a common head space
for all of the cells.
The common manifold on an Optima allows the possibility of
water transfer between cells. Cells that reverse or heat up can
evaporate water while cooler surrounding cells can condense this
water. Cells that charge up early take the brunt of the load to
pressurize the entire head space, thus losing more water than the
other, slower to charge, cells.
Especially under abusive conditions, the separately-valved
cells should, in theory, offer a cycle life advantage. I would guess
that this could be at least part of the explanation for greater cycle
life of Orbitals in EV applications.
Bill Dube'
At 09:26 AM 5/14/2007, you wrote:
Like David, I also did the calc's some time ago..
I put "my" in quotes to indicate the old YMMV type
disclaimer.... our numbers differ so greatly because my numbers
included my local cost for electricity of $.13/kwhr. That is not
just a battery amortization, it's my total cost, to compare it to
the total cost for my ICE powered vehicle. I probably should've
explained that, I can be an idiot like that sometimes.
JerryD asked why the difference for Optima's and Orbitals. I too was
suprised by that. It's been awhile since I did the sheet and I
didn't take very good notes; but the numbers I picked at that time
showed the Orb's to be less expensive to purchase and have a higher
life expectancy.
Most of my data entries came from an accumulation of many years of
EVDL lurking and not independant testing.
For example, the difference between the Orb's and Optimas. I
believe, I based the Orb's number of life-cycles on Ed Ang's Sparrow
pack; at the time he was developing a battery management system and
was showing remarkable life from his Orb's. The Optima life-cycle
chart posted on commutercars.com is what I used for the Optima's.
The numbers I used were 350 cycles for the Orbs and 220 for the
Optimas, for 80% DoD. It's really not a fair comparison of those
two, but it does indicate a general range for those types. I.E.
expect a "spiral wound lead type" group 34 buddy pair to deliver
about 220-350 cycles.
If someone wants to cough up $250,000, I'll gladly do the specific
research and report "real, tested, numbers for differing types."
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of David Roden
> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 12:39 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Doin' the math
>
> On 10 May 2007 at 9:51, Tim Humphrey wrote:
>
>> Out to 150,000 miles or more "my" estimated cost goes; from least to
> most....
>> (fixed width font)
>>
>> Battery $ per mile
>>
>> GC's .08
>> Lithium .09
>> NiMH .10
>> Orbital .11
>> NiCad .21
>> Optima .27
>
> I did this calculation many years ago, so the numbers differ now since
> materials costs have risen and the dollar has fallen relative to other
> currencies. My predictions reflect just about perfect maintenance, and
> use
> of each battery within its own specifications and limits, so note well
> that
> in a given application not all of the batteries listed below would be
> appropriate. (The "mule" for this situation was my own Solectria Force,
> and
>
> all the batteries listed except the golf car batteries [USBMC 2200] would
> have been appropriate.)
>
> FYI, a very good and valid way of designing an EV is to begin by deciding
> what battery suits your needs, then designing the rest of the EV around
> the
> battery.
>
> All that said, here are my figures :
>
> USBMC US2200 - 2 cents per mile
>
> Saft STM5-100MR - 4 cents per mile
>
> Trojan 27TMH - 8 cents per mile
>
> Optima G31 - 14 cents per mile
>
> East Penn 8G27 - 20 cents per mile
>
> Most of my costs are a fraction of Tim's. I'm sure that reflects both
> different calculation metods and different costs. However, it's
> interesting
>
> that many of the relationships among types are similar.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
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> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
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On 14 May 2007 at 7:38, Mark Hanson wrote:
> I have a Curtis PMC-25 with a Prestolite motor in my Porsche 914 with 14ea
> STM5-180 Ni-Cads (700lbs @ 84V).
Isn't 84 volts a bit low for that controller? Maybe it's going into low
battery
limit.
I might be remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure the PMC-25 was a 96 -
120 volt model. I had one that I used at 96 and 108 volts. At 96 volts it
would go into low battery limit if I had even one stinker in the pack.
The PMC-21 was the 72 - 96 volt controller, IIRC.
Shari Prange might remember this one better. They probably sold a bunch of
those controllers. The power stages were pretty nearly bulletproof - mine
never got more than slightly warm - but the logic board power supply tended
to flake out periodically.
David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/help/
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