EV Digest 6782
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: oops
by "George Swartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Fallbrook CVT
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) direct drive or transmission?
by "Dustin Stern" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Fw: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) ElectraVan tow hitch available
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: belly pan plastic
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Vehicle efficiency, wh/mile - cruise control
by "Alan Gideon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: EVLN(USE BASIC WOODWORKING SKILLS TO CONSTRUCT YOUR VERY OWN EV)
by "Alan Gideon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Solectra/Azure Dynamics DMOC445 AC controller
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Vehicle efficiency, wh/mile - cruise control
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: direct drive or transmission?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) unsubscribe
by Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Zivan DC/DC
by "Tom Carpenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EVLN(USE BASIC WOODWORKING SKILLS TO CONSTRUCT YOUR VERY OWN EV)
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Dicover Batteries
by "Tom Carpenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Here are the calculations. (was: Using Audio Capacitors for
Dragsters)
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) PM VS Series
by "Brian D. Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Wood/epoxy EV, Re: EVLN(USE BASIC WOODWORKING SKILLS TO CONSTRUCT YOUR
VERY OWN EV)
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
You don't have to apologize. All costs of operating an EV including taxes
are germain to any EV discussion. Building and maintaining roads and the
funding for them are important. EV's are more than just the application of
electrical and mechanical skills
On Wed, 16 May 2007 18:55:57 +0000, Dustin Stern wrote
> I see my post was off pronounced off topic prior to sending it...I
> should have read further down to find the comment by GWMobile
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...apologies!
>
> Dustin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone know anything about the CVT made by this company:
http://www.fallbrooktech.com
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, as long as I'm on a posting roll today...
Can I solicit some comments about whether I should opt for direct drive or a
transmission in my EV project?
These are the known parameters so far:
1) Z1k controller (the 348v version) (purchased and awaiting assembly)
2) 15 to 20 Optimas, ideally 180v but I may opt for two strings of 120v.
3) Loaded weight is 2100-2200lbs including 20 optimas and driver, aprox.
4) Targeting 40+ range and powerful acceleration. Online EV computers estimate
220 watt hours per mile but I think that is much more than needed. I have not
decided my final purpose, but it would be nice to be able to use it for my
daily commute in addition to and EV events.
5) Vehicle is a streamlined 3 wheel vortex (see www.vortexplans.com). The
Vortex has one wide wheel in back and two up front.
6) Initially planning on using a Netgain Warp 9. I have checked the
performance charts available on Netgain's site and talked to a representative.
One EVer recently suggested I use two smaller motors. I would like to be able
to climb hills and still get up to 70mph on the highway, so it's been my
thinking to use a small transmission, possibly either a Harley or an MR2
tranmssions (welded on one side).
Any knowledgable comments about whether to use multiple motors (and what kind)
or multiple gears would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Dustin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Keep in mind that the power available will decline badly as you
discharge the cap.
Power = V^2 (4 * ESR)
There is not much to get when the cap starts to get below half full.
At 11:59 AM 5/16/2007, you wrote:
Seems like the solution to the linear discharge problem is to add a
boost converter (Like the Prius has) to the Controller. The
Controller would keep boosting the voltage until the Caps went
almost flat. Sure, it'll add a lot of MOSFETs or IGBTs and a
inductor to your controller, but otherwise is not fancy tech or heavy.
-Phil
----- Original Message ----- From: "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
I agree, that's my point. That pretty well shoots the ideal of
arriving at the end with the charge depleted, because you'd have to
arrive at the end with near the maximum voltage needed to turn the
motor against maximum back EMF, so you'd probably still have half
your charge, meaning you'd need to double the pack size and weight
to still have that much voltage near the end. The fact that the
discharge is linear is going to require carrying more capacity to
keep voltage up, which directly impacts energy density
calculations. Either that or you need a trick controller that
inverts the falling voltage up to a higher voltage required by the
motor as the caps voltage drops so you can use that charge.
I still think the promising place for caps is in a street vehicle
to provide short current peaks and protect the cheap floodies life
span, which is more like the way they are used in a hybrid.
Marty
----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Hewes
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 11:29 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
But I still haven't seen an answer to a very important question (maybe I
missed it). Halfway down the strip, when your pack is halfway discharged,
your caps have a lot less voltage output to overcome motor back EMF,
right?
Or do these Maxwells do some magic where they don't discharge linearly
like
normal caps, but instead hold a voltage plateau (more or less) until near
the end like batteries?
Marty
----- Original Message ---
You set your cap pack up, so at the end of the run it is still in
the range needed.
For example, (ficticious numbers mainly) our favorite series motors
are pretty much capped at 170volts, so we get an EHV-Zilla, set it
to max motor volts of 170, and size a cap pack that will start at
the high end of the Zilla and still be above 170 at the end of the run.
Or we get really smart and listen to the guy that has already done
the research and determined a much better solution.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
My math agrees with you on the energy density. But
you are off on the charge rates for ultracaps. My 9
cell Maxwell was 6.345 kg including cell connectors
and balancers and took 12.4 Watt-hours to charge from
11.25 to 22.5 volts (75% total energy) at 500 amps in
5.31 seconds. That agrees closely with your 2.0
Watt-hours per kg, but in half the time. I was
limited by my power supply, but believe I could have
charged at 2 to 3 times that current. Kinda beside
the point.
Question to you is would you not be faster if you
could use all (or maybe 75%) of the energy you start
with instead of just a small portion? I think I saw
where you use 500 Watt-hrs from a 4 or 5 kiloWatt-hr
pack. Yea, I know why you carry the extra 4
kiloWatt-hrs down the track. Because at the power you
are running, the energy used from the A123 pack is
more than the energy you can get from the same weight
pack of any other electrical energy storage system
available, including ultracaps.
Maybe I should stop agreeing with you. But, I'll say
it again. You're right. A123 is great for the 1/4
mile.
But give ultracaps some credit. They can do 1,000,000
deep cycles. That is a lot of 1/4 mile races. And
yea, the times would be slower.
Jeff
--- Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Your doing the math wrong. Work the problem per kg.
>
> It takes just 2.0 Watt-hours to completely fill 1.0
> kg of high-power
> ultra caps. You can do this in 10 seconds.
>
> With 1.0 kg of A123 cells, you can push in 2.0
> watt-hrs in about 4 seconds.
>
> Since you aren't completely filling the A123 cells,
> you can use the
> pulse wattage input maximum rather than the 100%
> charge input current maximum.
>
> >But realize that in your example, if all you use is
> >that 6 seconds or 2% SOC, then you carry 98% along
> for
> >the ride. What if you could use 75% SOC in 6
> seconds?
> > Then you'd have less unused mass along for the
> ride.
> >Capacitors can do that for you.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
True that! The ESR is going to be the quiet death of that idea....
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dube" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
Keep in mind that the power available will decline badly as you discharge
the cap.
Power = V^2 (4 * ESR)
There is not much to get when the cap starts to get below half
full.
At 11:59 AM 5/16/2007, you wrote:
Seems like the solution to the linear discharge problem is to add a boost
converter (Like the Prius has) to the Controller. The Controller would
keep boosting the voltage until the Caps went almost flat. Sure, it'll
add a lot of MOSFETs or IGBTs and a inductor to your controller, but
otherwise is not fancy tech or heavy.
-Phil
----- Original Message ----- From: "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
I agree, that's my point. That pretty well shoots the ideal of arriving
at the end with the charge depleted, because you'd have to arrive at the
end with near the maximum voltage needed to turn the motor against
maximum back EMF, so you'd probably still have half your charge, meaning
you'd need to double the pack size and weight to still have that much
voltage near the end. The fact that the discharge is linear is going to
require carrying more capacity to keep voltage up, which directly impacts
energy density calculations. Either that or you need a trick controller
that inverts the falling voltage up to a higher voltage required by the
motor as the caps voltage drops so you can use that charge.
I still think the promising place for caps is in a street vehicle to
provide short current peaks and protect the cheap floodies life span,
which is more like the way they are used in a hybrid.
Marty
----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Hewes
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 11:29 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
But I still haven't seen an answer to a very important question (maybe I
missed it). Halfway down the strip, when your pack is halfway
discharged,
your caps have a lot less voltage output to overcome motor back EMF,
right?
Or do these Maxwells do some magic where they don't discharge linearly
like
normal caps, but instead hold a voltage plateau (more or less) until
near
the end like batteries?
Marty
----- Original Message ---
You set your cap pack up, so at the end of the run it is still in the
range needed.
For example, (ficticious numbers mainly) our favorite series motors are
pretty much capped at 170volts, so we get an EHV-Zilla, set it to max
motor volts of 170, and size a cap pack that will start at the high end
of the Zilla and still be above 170 at the end of the run.
Or we get really smart and listen to the guy that has already done the
research and determined a much better solution.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are two separate issues/limits you must concern yourself with
for the battery pack in drag racing.: Specific Power and Specific Energy.
You need to size the pack to deliver the required power AND the
required energy. One or the other will be the limitation. (With caps,
the energy is the limitation.)
The A123 pack is sized to provide the HP needed. This sets the weight
of the battery pack. There is extra energy left over at the end of
the run that we don't need, but, oh well.
Bill Dube'
At 02:24 PM 5/16/2007, you wrote:
Bill,
My math agrees with you on the energy density. But
you are off on the charge rates for ultracaps. My 9
cell Maxwell was 6.345 kg including cell connectors
and balancers and took 12.4 Watt-hours to charge from
11.25 to 22.5 volts (75% total energy) at 500 amps in
5.31 seconds. That agrees closely with your 2.0
Watt-hours per kg, but in half the time. I was
limited by my power supply, but believe I could have
charged at 2 to 3 times that current. Kinda beside
the point.
Question to you is would you not be faster if you
could use all (or maybe 75%) of the energy you start
with instead of just a small portion? I think I saw
where you use 500 Watt-hrs from a 4 or 5 kiloWatt-hr
pack. Yea, I know why you carry the extra 4
kiloWatt-hrs down the track. Because at the power you
are running, the energy used from the A123 pack is
more than the energy you can get from the same weight
pack of any other electrical energy storage system
available, including ultracaps.
Maybe I should stop agreeing with you. But, I'll say
it again. You're right. A123 is great for the 1/4
mile.
But give ultracaps some credit. They can do 1,000,000
deep cycles. That is a lot of 1/4 mile races. And
yea, the times would be slower.
Jeff
--- Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Your doing the math wrong. Work the problem per kg.
>
> It takes just 2.0 Watt-hours to completely fill 1.0
> kg of high-power
> ultra caps. You can do this in 10 seconds.
>
> With 1.0 kg of A123 cells, you can push in 2.0
> watt-hrs in about 4 seconds.
>
> Since you aren't completely filling the A123 cells,
> you can use the
> pulse wattage input maximum rather than the 100%
> charge input current maximum.
>
> >But realize that in your example, if all you use is
> >that 6 seconds or 2% SOC, then you carry 98% along
> for
> >the ride. What if you could use 75% SOC in 6
> seconds?
> > Then you'd have less unused mass along for the
> ride.
> >Capacitors can do that for you.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a hitch meant for the Subaru-based ElectraVan that fits in the
bumper-to-body connection shafts. Anyone who comes to get it can have it,
whatever you want to pay since it's just taking up space. I posted it here:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/pts/332282965.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HDPE is used to make gas tanks (that are exposed beneath the vehicle)
for ICE vehicles.
Al wrote:
I would like to work on improving the aerodynamics of my truck. Of
course I want to keep weight to a minimum.
I am considering LDPE, HDPE, and "Lexan" in say 3/32 or 1/8 thickness.
Lexan is probably best at impact resistance. Not sure if low or high
density poly would be a good choice as it costs less than Lexan.
Thanks for any comments.
Al
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wasn't asking about the quality of the control. Rather, I was asking what
electrical value is being held constant by the constant foot pressure on the
accelerator.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 12:30 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Vehicle efficiency, wh/mile - cruise control
That would be the "Well programmed human" part of the system.
It's amazing the kind of subtle feedback a person can provide without even
realizing they are doing it.
> So what sort of "constant" function does Roland's constant accelerator
> pressure provide? Just confused.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
> Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 10:03 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Vehicle efficiency, wh/mile - cruise control
>
> Constant current on the battery side or the motor side?
>
> On the battery side you'd have trouble on hills as the vehicle slows WAY
> down. You'd end up going up the hill very slowly while the motor was
> drawing lots of current and overheating.
>
> If you maintained constant motor current, you'd slow down even more going
> up hill until you came to a stop and then fried your commutator.
>
> Constant voltage on the motor side is somewhat better as you'd maintain a
> somewhat even speed, but it might not be as efficient.
> Unless you are going to use a computer controlled system with a really
> good algorythm, your best method is to use a well programmed human to
> control the system.
>
>> So, instead of programming for a constant speed, you could program for
>> constant current, and let the speed vary as it would?
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Roland Wiench
>> Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 2:30 PM
>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Subject: Re: Vehicle efficiency, wh/mile - cruise control
>>
>> If you was on a dead level grade, cruise controls works, as it does in
>> my
>> other cars, but in hilly country while going up a grade, you can feel
>> more
>> power being added which is pushing the accelerator harder, and going
>> down
>> hill, it holds you back.
>>
>> I make more range, while holding the accelerator at a constant pressure
>> which may slow you up a bit, and let it get up to a high as a speed as
>> possible while coasting down a grade.
>>
>> At one time we did not have a speed limit, now it is 79 mph, (4 miles
>> over),
>>
>> where at times a vehicle may get up to over 85 mph going down hill,
>> which
>> I
>> therefore can roller coast up the next which slows the vehicle to about
>> 60
>> mph going up the next grade.
>>
>> I was be able to coast all the way from my work place all the way into
>> my
>> garage which was about 5 miles.
>>
>> I now have too many short runs of about 1/2 mile long with only one stop
>> at
>> the end of each run. It's like driving on a very long 3 to 5 mile long
>> connected parking lot.
>>
>> Roland
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 12:03 PM
>> Subject: Re: Vehicle efficiency, wh/mile - cruise control
>>
>>
>>> It seems like cruise control would be very easy to build into an EV
>>> controller... its all electronic.
>>> Wonder why its not done... or is it?
>>>
>>> On May 13, 2007, at 6:49 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Roland> One way I found that can reduce the AH or wh usage is if
>>> > Roland> everything else is perfect, is the amount of pressure you
>>> > Roland> maintain on the accelerator. For example, to accelerate
>>> > my EV up
>>> > Roland> to a certain speed, I just press the accelerator just
>>> > to that
>>> > Roland> point which will maintain that speed, not push it to
>>> > the floor
>>> > Roland> and then when you get to the speed you want, then let
>>> > up on the
>>> > Roland> accelerator at that point.
>>> >
>>> > Seems like cruise control would be very helpful in an EV.
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
His web site talks about some of the performance figures achieved by other
EVs, but does not say what his will do. Something smells....
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of mike golub
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 2:12 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EVLN(USE BASIC WOODWORKING SKILLS TO CONSTRUCT YOUR VERY OWN
EV)
Did anyone ever buy this?
He keeps raising the price every month.
But he doesn't answer my email questions...
Thanks
Mike
--- bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> EVLN(USE BASIC WOODWORKING SKILLS TO CONSTRUCT YOUR
> VERY OWN EV)
> [The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public
> EV
> informational purposes. Contact publication for
> reprint rights.]
> --- {EVangel}
>
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_vie
w&newsId=20070305005564&newsLang=en
> March 05, 2007 06:26 AM Eastern Time
> Jeffrey Automotive Introduces Brand New Plan for a
> DIY Electric
> Car
>
> Plans Are for a DIY Electric Car That Can Be Built
> in the Garage
> or Workshop Using Basic Woodworking and Engineering
> Skills
>
> CORNWALL, United Kingdom--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Jeffrey
> Automotive is
> proud to introduce plans for a build-it-yourself,
> electric car.
> The car can be built for $5,000 or cheaper, with
> running costs of
> less than 3 cents a mile and no garage service
> bills. An
> excellent vehicle for doing the shopping, commuting
> to work or
> just for plain fun, all this, and drivers will be
> helping the
> environment in the bargain.
>
> The vehicle is a two-seater, powered by a 72volt DC
> motor with an
> anticipated top speed of 60 mph and a range of 50/60
> miles on one
> charge from six 12v deep cycle lead/acid batteries.
>
> The plans and the instruction manual are extremely
> detailed with
> photographs and drawings throughout to help the
> builder at every
> stage of construction. Further help and back-up is
> available
> through the web site.
>
> The car was designed to meet the growing demand from
> drivers
> concerned about global warming who are looking for a
> fossil-fuel-free, environmentally-friendly vehicle
> that doesn't
> cost the earth.
>
> George Jeffrey was well known back in the 70s as a
> designer and
> builder of sports and racing cars in Britain. The
> best known was
> the J5, a two-seater, open-top sports car, described
> by the press
> as a curvaceous driver's car.
>
> For additional information contact George Jeffrey or
> visit
> www.electric-cars-plans.com.
>
> Contacts Jeffrey Automotive George Jeffrey,
> +44(0)1579345255
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.electric-cars-plans.com
> -
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
>
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> ===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> Looking for earth-friendly autos?
> Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos'
> Green Center.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who
knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Emailed again: no response
>> Called again: asked for my email address and promised a response
>> within the week. No response
>>
>> I gave up.
> Was this contacting Solectra or Electro Automotive?
Solectra, this was before EA was selling their products. I've been
oversea to much recently to do much work on my EV projects.
Ill be back home at the end of summer so I'll try again with EA.
> It seems like a lot of people have been warning me about tech support
> with the Solectra/Azure system.
> When did Azure actually buy Solectra? Azures website says that they
> pride themselves with their customer support: http://
> www.azuredynamics.com/product_support.htm
As I said, I was dealing with Solectra. Perhaps Azure has replaced these
folks or done something to encourage them to respond to requests. I don't
know.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You missed the point. NOTHING IS BEING HELD CONSTANT
The human is reacting to local variations, possibly without even realizing
it.
> I wasn't asking about the quality of the control. Rather, I was asking
> what
> electrical value is being held constant by the constant foot pressure on
> the
> accelerator.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 12:30 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Vehicle efficiency, wh/mile - cruise control
>
> That would be the "Well programmed human" part of the system.
>
> It's amazing the kind of subtle feedback a person can provide without even
> realizing they are doing it.
>
>> So what sort of "constant" function does Roland's constant accelerator
>> pressure provide? Just confused.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
>> Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 10:03 PM
>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Subject: RE: Vehicle efficiency, wh/mile - cruise control
>>
>> Constant current on the battery side or the motor side?
>>
>> On the battery side you'd have trouble on hills as the vehicle slows WAY
>> down. You'd end up going up the hill very slowly while the motor was
>> drawing lots of current and overheating.
>>
>> If you maintained constant motor current, you'd slow down even more
>> going
>> up hill until you came to a stop and then fried your commutator.
>>
>> Constant voltage on the motor side is somewhat better as you'd maintain
>> a
>> somewhat even speed, but it might not be as efficient.
>> Unless you are going to use a computer controlled system with a really
>> good algorythm, your best method is to use a well programmed human to
>> control the system.
>>
>>> So, instead of programming for a constant speed, you could program for
>>> constant current, and let the speed vary as it would?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>> Behalf Of Roland Wiench
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 2:30 PM
>>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>> Subject: Re: Vehicle efficiency, wh/mile - cruise control
>>>
>>> If you was on a dead level grade, cruise controls works, as it does in
>>> my
>>> other cars, but in hilly country while going up a grade, you can feel
>>> more
>>> power being added which is pushing the accelerator harder, and going
>>> down
>>> hill, it holds you back.
>>>
>>> I make more range, while holding the accelerator at a constant pressure
>>> which may slow you up a bit, and let it get up to a high as a speed as
>>> possible while coasting down a grade.
>>>
>>> At one time we did not have a speed limit, now it is 79 mph, (4 miles
>>> over),
>>>
>>> where at times a vehicle may get up to over 85 mph going down hill,
>>> which
>>> I
>>> therefore can roller coast up the next which slows the vehicle to about
>>> 60
>>> mph going up the next grade.
>>>
>>> I was be able to coast all the way from my work place all the way into
>>> my
>>> garage which was about 5 miles.
>>>
>>> I now have too many short runs of about 1/2 mile long with only one
>>> stop
>>> at
>>> the end of each run. It's like driving on a very long 3 to 5 mile long
>>> connected parking lot.
>>>
>>> Roland
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 12:03 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Vehicle efficiency, wh/mile - cruise control
>>>
>>>
>>>> It seems like cruise control would be very easy to build into an EV
>>>> controller... its all electronic.
>>>> Wonder why its not done... or is it?
>>>>
>>>> On May 13, 2007, at 6:49 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > Roland> One way I found that can reduce the AH or wh usage is if
>>>> > Roland> everything else is perfect, is the amount of pressure
>>>> you
>>>> > Roland> maintain on the accelerator. For example, to accelerate
>>>> > my EV up
>>>> > Roland> to a certain speed, I just press the accelerator just
>>>> > to that
>>>> > Roland> point which will maintain that speed, not push it to
>>>> > the floor
>>>> > Roland> and then when you get to the speed you want, then let
>>>> > up on the
>>>> > Roland> accelerator at that point.
>>>> >
>>>> > Seems like cruise control would be very helpful in an EV.
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
>> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever
>> I
>> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
>> legalistic signature is void.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 60 mph, the wheels on your vehicle will be turning at less than 1,000
RPM. That is way to slow for your proposed motor. You will need at least
a single speed transmission. A multispeed will improve your performance
and efficiency.
Direct drive requires motors specially built to operate at low RPM.
>
> Well, as long as I'm on a posting roll today...
>
> Can I solicit some comments about whether I should opt for direct drive or
> a transmission in my EV project?
>
> These are the known parameters so far:
> 1) Z1k controller (the 348v version) (purchased and awaiting assembly)
> 2) 15 to 20 Optimas, ideally 180v but I may opt for two strings of 120v.
> 3) Loaded weight is 2100-2200lbs including 20 optimas and driver, aprox.
> 4) Targeting 40+ range and powerful acceleration. Online EV computers
> estimate 220 watt hours per mile but I think that is much more than
> needed. I have not decided my final purpose, but it would be nice to be
> able to use it for my daily commute in addition to and EV events.
> 5) Vehicle is a streamlined 3 wheel vortex (see www.vortexplans.com). The
> Vortex has one wide wheel in back and two up front.
> 6) Initially planning on using a Netgain Warp 9. I have checked the
> performance charts available on Netgain's site and talked to a
> representative.
>
> One EVer recently suggested I use two smaller motors. I would like to be
> able to climb hills and still get up to 70mph on the highway, so it's been
> my thinking to use a small transmission, possibly either a Harley or an
> MR2 tranmssions (welded on one side).
>
> Any knowledgable comments about whether to use multiple motors (and what
> kind) or multiple gears would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Dustin
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Al
I am using a zivan ng1 and it seems to be working out great. I am using a
small garden tractor battery with the zivan hooked to it to keep it charge.
So far has been over a year and 7,000 miles of no problem
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Al" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 10:06 PM
Subject: Zivan DC/DC
Anyone have experience with the Zivan NG1 DC/DC ?
Looks like a beefy unit, 55amp continuous!
Thanks, Al
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database:
269.7.0/804 - Release Date: 5/14/2007 4:46 PM
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--- Begin Message ---
No pictures of a finished unit that I could find either, wouldn't you put
one up? The smell is getting worse. And the three cars at the bottom of
the front page that he seems to imply are his designs, one looks like a
pretty typical Lotus 7 clone (which, by the way, would be an awesome EV),
one looks like a pretty typical SCCA Formula V racer (notice the VW front
suspension uprights and skinny wheels), and the third looks like a homebuilt
mess roughly based on the Lotus 7 :).
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Gideon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 4:26 PM
Subject: RE: EVLN(USE BASIC WOODWORKING SKILLS TO CONSTRUCT YOUR VERY OWN
EV)
His web site talks about some of the performance figures achieved by other
EVs, but does not say what his will do. Something smells....
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look, bill, all was fine until you made some crack about not knowing
about drag racing, that is insulting, you are better than that.
I see that indeed the A123 cells are more powerful per kg than the 400F
Ness caps I provided a link to. But lets also acknowledge that the
A123 cells are a recent significant improvement in batteries, and that
caps will continue to advance as well.
So making a statement that caps aren't the best choice for drag racing
isn't something I would go on record with. If you take into account
that the lifetime of A123 cells at these 30C discharge rates compared to
currently available caps, then using even todays caps might very well be
the "best" choice if not the ultimate in performance, and it may very
well be the best choice to boost performance in a road car, if they
allow you to avoid the life-killing high discharge rates used with the
batteries to accelerate.
Jack Murray
Bill Dube wrote:
I went to the Ness website and browsed the ultra capacitors to see where
the current specs were these days.
Under very gentle discharge, ultra caps have a specific energy in the
range of 2 to 5 Watt-hours/kg. (This will be much lower under high
discharge. You won't get even half of that at max power.) Here are a few
comparisons:
AGM lead-acid ~ 30 W-hr/kg
NiCads ~ 45 W-hr/kg
Li-Ion FePo ~ 110 W-hr/kg
Now you are getting a glimpse at the problem. (This is why the folks
using caps pushed the car to the starting line, by the way.)
It takes at least 500 Watt-hours to get the KillaCycle to make a fast
run down the strip. This is about how much energy it takes to get a 619
lb bike with a 135 lb driver to cover the 1/4 mile in the 8's. This does
not include the burn out, the trip to the starting line, or the trip
back to the pits. This weight assumes your ultra caps weigh just 161 lbs.
If you use the least-powerful ultra caps that have the most energy per
kg, and you (incorrectly) assume that you will be able to extract the
total maximum specific energy from them, the pack will weigh a minimum
of 100 kg = 220 lbs. This is about 60 lbs heavier than the present pack.
Oops! The bike goes much slower because it weighs more AND is has much
less available HP. Let's fix the HP problem.
If you were to select capacitors that are more powerful, (on par with
A123 cells) the specific energy would drop to 2 (or less.) This boosts
the cap pack weight to 500/2 = 250 kg = 550 lbs! Oops! The bike goes
even slower, not faster.
As we discussed in a previous note, you can't get all the available
energy out of a pack of caps at the drag strip because the drag racing
discharge curve is "upside down" from what the caps are able to deliver.
You need about _twice_ the weight in caps to deliver some sort of HP at
least half-way down the track. This pushes the pack weight up even more!
As the pack weight grows, this boosts the vehicle weight, which boosts
the HP and energy requirements in proportion. It is a losing
proposition. It just won't work.
Ultra caps are not the best choice for drag racing. This is obvious if
you just do a few simple calculations. You don't even need to do the
more detailed calculations because the numbers are so bad, even making
wildly optimistic assumptions.
Bill Dube'
"Nuff said"?
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Hi Mike and All,
Looking at it and that he built a wooden
airplane I'd think it would work and about what I'd do if I
designed a 4wh 2 seat wood/epoxy EV. It's just that for a 2
seater, a 3wheeler makes a better EV, vehicle.
It's not that hard to design, build your
own in wood/epoxy.
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EVLN(USE BASIC WOODWORKING SKILLS TO CONSTRUCT
YOUR VERY OWN EV)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 11:12:00 -0700 (PDT)
>Did anyone ever buy this?
>He keeps raising the price every month.
>But he doesn't answer my email questions...
>
>Thanks
>
>Mike
>--- bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> EVLN(USE BASIC WOODWORKING SKILLS TO CONSTRUCT YOUR
>> VERY OWN EV)
>> [The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public
>> EV
>> informational purposes. Contact publication for
>> reprint rights.]
>> --- {EVangel}
>>
>http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20070305005564&newsLang=en
>> March 05, 2007 06:26 AM Eastern Time
>> Jeffrey Automotive Introduces Brand New Plan for a
>> DIY Electric
>> Car
>>
>> Plans Are for a DIY Electric Car That Can Be Built
>> in the Garage
>> or Workshop Using Basic Woodworking and Engineering
>> Skills
>>
>> CORNWALL, United Kingdom--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Jeffrey
>> Automotive is
>> proud to introduce plans for a build-it-yourself,
>> electric car.
>> The car can be built for $5,000 or cheaper, with
>> running costs of
>> less than 3 cents a mile and no garage service
>> bills. An
>> excellent vehicle for doing the shopping, commuting
>> to work or
>> just for plain fun, all this, and drivers will be
>> helping the
>> environment in the bargain.
>>
>> The vehicle is a two-seater, powered by a 72volt DC
>> motor with an
>> anticipated top speed of 60 mph and a range of 50/60
>> miles on one
>> charge from six 12v deep cycle lead/acid batteries.
>>
>> The plans and the instruction manual are extremely
>> detailed with
>> photographs and drawings throughout to help the
>> builder at every
>> stage of construction. Further help and back-up is
>> available
>> through the web site.
>>
>> The car was designed to meet the growing demand from
>> drivers
>> concerned about global warming who are looking for a
>> fossil-fuel-free, environmentally-friendly vehicle
>> that doesn't
>> cost the earth.
>>
>> George Jeffrey was well known back in the 70s as a
>> designer and
>> builder of sports and racing cars in Britain. The
>> best known was
>> the J5, a two-seater, open-top sports car, described
>> by the press
>> as a curvaceous driver's car.
>>
>> For additional information contact George Jeffrey or
>> visit
>> www.electric-cars-plans.com.
>>
>> Contacts Jeffrey Automotive George Jeffrey,
>> +44(0)1579345255
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> http://www.electric-cars-plans.com
>> -
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
>>
>> ' ____
>> ~/__|o\__
>> '@----- @'---(=
>> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
>> . EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
>> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
>> ===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
>>
>>
>>
>>
>___________________________________________________________
>> _________________________ Looking for earth-friendly
>> autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo!
>> Autos' Green Center.
>> http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>___________________________________________________________
>_________________________Be a better Globetrotter. Get
>better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo!
>Answers - Check it out.
>http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469
>
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