EV Digest 6834
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) What is it?
by Don Bowen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: What is it?
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: More fun stories from the shop/Looking at a used EV tomorrow!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: new EV for me (well, a Golf Cart really...)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: ISE and Altair Nano - Li-Ion Packs for Heavy-Duty Vehicles
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: What is it?
by Don Bowen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: ISE and Altair Nano - Li-Ion Packs for Heavy-Duty Vehicles
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: ISE and Altair Nano - Li-Ion Packs for Heavy-Duty Vehicles
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: ISE and Altair Nano - Li-Ion Packs for Heavy-Duty Vehicles
by Marcin Ciosek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Controller without caps
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) What Inductance is (was: Controller without caps)
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Zilla controller insides
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: ISE and Altair Nano - Li-Ion Packs for Heavy-Duty Vehicles
by =?windows-1252?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: ISE and Altair Nano - Li-Ion Packs for Heavy-Duty Vehicles
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Car Trailer Rental
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) [Fwd: Electric Vehicle questions before my purchase]
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: ISE and Altair Nano - Li-Ion Packs for Heavy-Duty Vehicles
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Car Trailer Rental
by John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: ISE and Altair Nano - Li-Ion Packs for Heavy-Duty Vehicles
by Marcin Ciosek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Car Trailer Rental
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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At 09:24 AM 6/2/2007, Don Bowen wrote:
Can anyone tell me anything about this electric postal delivery vehicle?
http://www.braingarage.com/Dons/Travels/journal/images/electric.jpg
From the DOT code on the tires it was made in either 1980 or
1990. There are no markings other than the word "ELECTRIC." I
could not find any sort of builders plate but there may be one
under the dirt. It does have a gas heater. There does not appear
to be much room for a battery bank in the front but I could not
open the panel in the back.
I am considering taking this on as an interesting project.
It's a Comuta-Van. 72V System. 6 batteries in front, 6 in back.
Contactor controller - 3 speed (36V w/Resistor, 36V, 72V) combined
with a 3 speed transmission. Gives a fairly smooth speed control.
(You might be able to tell that I used to have one.)
I was getting about 20 mile range at up to 45MPH.
Lee Hart claims both higher speed and better range.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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If you are in N. California you might consider the Electravan in Santa Cruz.
Lawrence Rhodes.......
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Well top speed on these things is the cruise speed you are meant to floor it
all the time. 15mph isn't too fast. If mom wants to go slower put an
altrax or curtis in it. Not hard to do. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 7:26 AM
Subject: Re: new EV for me (well, a Golf Cart really...)
> At 11:17 PM 6/1/2007, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >I'd check to see if the system is really working. Many times the first
> >contactor will give out. That could account for the jerkey acceleration.
>
> I'll have to check it in detail, but I remember seeing only 1
> contactor, and it did look like a multi-tap resistor.
>
> >If you have an affair that looks like a coil spring with taps & a few
> >contactors they are very smooth when running well. It's just a way of
going
> >from 0 to 15 without burning up a big contactor. It's really best to be
in
> >the "top" contactor at all times. At any other speed you are burning
amps
> >rather than twisting the motor. So floor it with impunity.
>
> Except this is being driven mostly by my mother, and she doesn't want
> to go fast.
>
> And I wonder about the resistance of the small gauge battery
> wires. This thing is rather sluggish when going up the driveway -
> which is a gentle uphill.
>
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I was more thinking in terms of "yikes if they can handle a recharge
in ten minutes they must be some pretty tough batteries!" I think
they are also rated for a 15 or 20 year lifespan...?
Tehben
-Lithium batteries are <accent>sweeet!</accent>... but don't think
about them, its bad for your morale-
On Jun 2, 2007, at 8:18 AM, Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
I generally agree, although outlets capable of supplying the juice are
available in any industrial zone in the US and presumably also in the
rest of the developed world.
The real benefit of ten minute recharge is not one of practicality as
it is marketing. The general uninformed public still thinks they have
to be able to fill up in ten minutes, having that capability removes
an obstacle in the customers mind, whether or not they ever use it is
another matter.
And then there's the CARB 10 minute recharge requirement that seemed
to be intended to keep BEV from getting full ZEV credits.
My personal opinion is that 1 hour recharge is far more practical,
stop for lunch and fill up your car. It would keep the current at a
level that's more in line with what the batteries and associated power
systems normally would see on discharge, reducing the risk of
catastrophic failures.
On 6/1/07, Jukka Järvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
And we come again to the issue: How to get 250 kW outlets all
around for
charging ?
I would say that the commercial solutions in few years will have such
capacity that they do not need to be charged in 10 minutes.
Would you think it's already possible to make a car with 600+ mile
range ?
With 150 mile range I have extremely rarely needed any kind of fast
charging. Thou old habits are hard to get rid of. I automaticly
plug my
EVs EVery chance I get. :)
Sure.. It's nice to have pack charged in seconds. But I have no
use for
such function anymore...
-Jukka
p.s. my humble opinion...
Tehben Dean kirjoitti:
>> ISE and Altair Nanotechnologies in Joint Development Agreement for
>> Li-Ion Packs for Heavy-Duty Vehicles
>> 1 June 2007
>
> For the entire article:
> http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/06/ise_and_altair_.html#more
>
>> ISE Corporation, a developer and manufacturer of electric and
>> hybrid-electric drive systems and components for heavy-duty
vehicles,
>> and Altair Nanotechnologies (Altairnano) have entered into an
>> agreement to jointly develop and commercially supply lithium-ion
>> rechargeable battery packs for use in hybrid-electric and all-
electric
>> heavy-duty vehicles.
>>
>> Under the agreement, Altairnano will provide NanoSafe cells and
>> batteries for the battery pack based on their proprietary lithium
>> titanate electrode materials, along with data concerning the
proper
>> care and management of their cells and batteries.
>>
>> ISE will design the system utilizing its data on operating
>> environments, vehicle shock and vibration criteria, vehicle duty
>> cycles and proprietary software and control electronics. Other
>> cooperative areas will include cell equalization and packaging
of the
>> commercial product. The goal is to develop and commercially supply
>> high quality, cost-effective, lithium battery packs for heavy-duty
>> buses, trucks, military vehicles and airport ground support
equipment.
>>
>> ISE intends to continue to be a leader in the development of
>> energy storage solutions for heavy duty electric and hybrid
electric
>> vehicles. We are excited to have partnered with Altairnano and
feel
>> that Altairnano's unique nano technology yields power storage
>> solutions with high power and extremely long life that are ideally
>> suited to maximize the performance of heavy duty hybrid vehicles.
>> —David Mazaika, President and CEO of ISE Corporation
>>
>> Altairnano currently is providing a 35 kWh lithium-ion battery
pack
>> for the Phoenix Motorcars all-electric light-duty sport utility
truck.
>> (Earlier post.) Separately, AeroVironment announced that it has
tested
>> and validated Altairnano and Phoenix Motorcar's claim that the
>> Altairnano battery can be recharged in less than 10 minutes
without
>> harm to the battery.
>
> Interesting to note what AeroVironment said about recharging the
Altair
> Nano batteries:
> "...AeroVironment announced that it has tested and validated
Altairnano
> and Phoenix Motorcar's claim that the Altairnano battery can be
> recharged in less than 10 minutes without harm to the battery."
>
> I want some of those batteries :P~
>
> Tehben
> -Lithium batteries are <accent>sweeet!</accent>... but don't
think about
> them, because its bad for your morale-
>
>
>
>
--
www.electric-lemon.com
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IF we get rid of cross country freeways and rebuilt
the route 66's With charging stations every 50 miles
along the route with the Stuckee at every one with a
charge for free with a cup of coffee and have the
industrial power going to it then we would have EV
heaven
--- Peter Gabrielsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> I generally agree, although outlets capable of
> supplying the juice are
> available in any industrial zone in the US and
> presumably also in the
> rest of the developed world.
>
> The real benefit of ten minute recharge is not one
> of practicality as
> it is marketing. The general uninformed public still
> thinks they have
> to be able to fill up in ten minutes, having that
> capability removes
> an obstacle in the customers mind, whether or not
> they ever use it is
> another matter.
>
> And then there's the CARB 10 minute recharge
> requirement that seemed
> to be intended to keep BEV from getting full ZEV
> credits.
>
> My personal opinion is that 1 hour recharge is far
> more practical,
> stop for lunch and fill up your car. It would keep
> the current at a
> level that's more in line with what the batteries
> and associated power
> systems normally would see on discharge, reducing
> the risk of
> catastrophic failures.
>
>
>
>
>
> On 6/1/07, Jukka Järvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > And we come again to the issue: How to get 250 kW
> outlets all around for
> > charging ?
> >
> > I would say that the commercial solutions in few
> years will have such
> > capacity that they do not need to be charged in 10
> minutes.
> >
> > Would you think it's already possible to make a
> car with 600+ mile range ?
> >
> > With 150 mile range I have extremely rarely needed
> any kind of fast
> > charging. Thou old habits are hard to get rid of.
> I automaticly plug my
> > EVs EVery chance I get. :)
> >
> > Sure.. It's nice to have pack charged in seconds.
> But I have no use for
> > such function anymore...
> >
> > -Jukka
> > p.s. my humble opinion...
> >
> > Tehben Dean kirjoitti:
> > >> ISE and Altair Nanotechnologies in Joint
> Development Agreement for
> > >> Li-Ion Packs for Heavy-Duty Vehicles
> > >> 1 June 2007
> > >
> > > For the entire article:
> > >
>
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/06/ise_and_altair_.html#more
> > >
> > >> ISE Corporation, a developer and manufacturer
> of electric and
> > >> hybrid-electric drive systems and components
> for heavy-duty vehicles,
> > >> and Altair Nanotechnologies (Altairnano) have
> entered into an
> > >> agreement to jointly develop and commercially
> supply lithium-ion
> > >> rechargeable battery packs for use in
> hybrid-electric and all-electric
> > >> heavy-duty vehicles.
> > >>
> > >> Under the agreement, Altairnano will provide
> NanoSafe cells and
> > >> batteries for the battery pack based on their
> proprietary lithium
> > >> titanate electrode materials, along with data
> concerning the proper
> > >> care and management of their cells and
> batteries.
> > >>
> > >> ISE will design the system utilizing its data
> on operating
> > >> environments, vehicle shock and vibration
> criteria, vehicle duty
> > >> cycles and proprietary software and control
> electronics. Other
> > >> cooperative areas will include cell
> equalization and packaging of the
> > >> commercial product. The goal is to develop and
> commercially supply
> > >> high quality, cost-effective, lithium battery
> packs for heavy-duty
> > >> buses, trucks, military vehicles and airport
> ground support equipment.
> > >>
> > >> ISE intends to continue to be a leader in
> the development of
> > >> energy storage solutions for heavy duty
> electric and hybrid electric
> > >> vehicles. We are excited to have partnered with
> Altairnano and feel
> > >> that Altairnano's unique nano technology yields
> power storage
> > >> solutions with high power and extremely long
> life that are ideally
> > >> suited to maximize the performance of heavy
> duty hybrid vehicles.
> > >> David Mazaika, President and CEO of ISE
> Corporation
> > >>
> > >> Altairnano currently is providing a 35 kWh
> lithium-ion battery pack
> > >> for the Phoenix Motorcars all-electric
> light-duty sport utility truck.
> > >> (Earlier post.) Separately, AeroVironment
> announced that it has tested
> > >> and validated Altairnano and Phoenix Motorcar's
> claim that the
> > >> Altairnano battery can be recharged in less
> than 10 minutes without
> > >> harm to the battery.
> > >
> > > Interesting to note what AeroVironment said
> about recharging the Altair
> > > Nano batteries:
> > > "...AeroVironment announced that it has tested
> and validated Altairnano
> > > and Phoenix Motorcar's claim that the Altairnano
> battery can be
> > > recharged in less than 10 minutes without harm
> to the battery."
> > >
> > > I want some of those batteries :P~
> > >
> > > Tehben
> > > -Lithium batteries are
> <accent>sweeet!</accent>... but don't think about
> > > them, because its bad for your morale-
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> www.electric-lemon.com
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469
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--- Begin Message ---
Bruce suggested:
_____________________________________________________
IF we get rid of cross country freeways and rebuilt
the route 66's With charging stations every 50 miles
along the route with the Stuckee at every one with a
charge for free with a cup of coffee and have the
industrial power going to it then we would have EV
heaven
______________________________________________________
Yeah...or better still, drop slots in the lanes with contacts on either side
with 110 or 220vac and we can all add full size slotcar swingarms to our
cars to charge underway...
-MT
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--- Begin Message ---
Everything seem to be like a dream for us, EV makers/users (beside a price, of
course) but fast charging with such huge current will make BMSes useless for
balancing and if we take your scenario (charging every 50 miles) with only
one weak battery in our pack will cause capacity loss every charge an you
could not reach next charging station.
So, everything is good from marketing point of view, but real life is not so
simple.
Marcin
On Saturday 02 June 2007 20:02:39 Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
> IF we get rid of cross country freeways and rebuilt
> the route 66's With charging stations every 50 miles
> along the route with the Stuckee at every one with a
> charge for free with a cup of coffee and have the
> industrial power going to it then we would have EV
> heaven
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
just an idea, can a controller work without caps? is there some
electronics reason why it would kill the controller to not have
capacitors?
Dale Ulan replied:
Depends on the type of controller and the speed of the switching
devices. Without those caps, though, it can be a bit hard on the
battery. Obviously a contactor controller doesn't need them. SCR
controllers may or may not need them but modern MOSFET and IGBT
controllers do. The ringing from switching the MOSFET or IGBT on and
off quickly will eventually damage the devices without those caps.
Also, the batteries would prefer to see an average current draw
rather than lots of spikes. Finally, EMI constraints (not thrashing
every AM radio within blocks) is important too.
The traditional EV motor controller is a simple, basic hard-switched
DC/DC converter. They are all derivitives of the buck, boost, and
buck-boost converters, which have exactly one switch, one diode, one
capacitor, and one inductor. DC controllers have one such converter. Ac
controllers usually have 6 such converters. And of course, you might
parallel many small devices for economic reasons rather than use a
single large part.
In these converters, the capacitors are a necessary component. When
designers try to leave them out (by using the battery as a capacitor,
for example), performance and efficiency suffer. So, it is penny-wise
and pound-foolish to leave them out.
However, there are other converter circuits. Though more complicated,
they improve performance and efficiency. More significantly, they reduce
the total size and cost of the components needed. Almost all other
modern switching power supplies use at least some of these techniques.
For example, if you use the motor as your inductor, then you are limited
to low switching frequencies. Even 15 KHz is really too high for the
solid iron case and relatively thick laminations in the armature and
field. Most switchmode converters use much higher frequencies, which
drastically reduces the size of capacitors and inductors needed. These
parts are then optimized for the operating frequency, which increases
efficiency.
Another example are "soft-switched" circuits. Rather than slamming the
switches on and off at full voltage and current, they use additional
inductors and capacitors to shape the voltage and current waveforms.
Look at ZVS (zero voltage switching), ZCS (zero current switching), and
resonant converter circuits.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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No modern ones can. Destruction of your switching transistors will result.
This even happens when the caps get weak!
You could build one specifically to work without them, but that's like
asking "can you build an EV without rubber tires?"
Inductance is the property of electricity that is somewhat like inertia,
once electricity is flowing in a large coil (i.e. a motor) it wants to KEEP
flowing. You can witness this just with a motor, 2 wires, and a battery.
Connect the motor, and once running, pull one of the wires off the battery.
You will usually see a nice arc jump across the gap between the battery
terminal and motor lead as you pull it off. If you do it slow, the effect
is very pronounced! This current flow wants to keep going, even though
there is a high-resistance air gap suddenly introduced. It will quickly
build up a high voltage as the magnetic flux collapses in the motor parts
and ionize the air in the gap. Then once it hits the breakdown voltage, an
arc will form. This voltage can be much higher than your battery voltage!!!
This is where the destruction comes in. Basically in a modern switching
transistor (MOSFET/IGBT), to get the efficiency up (low loss) they
effectively use very thin "insulation" between the semiconducting compounds
in the transistor. Such so that a voltage too high will jump across or
"breakdown" the switching are in the transistor. This can cause it to
conduct, and usually only partially, so high currents flow through small
areas which result in rapid damage. This is about the time you let the
blue smoke out! Normally there are Diodes or other transistors
(synchronous rectification) in the controller that safely shunt this current
back into the motor, so the large motor inductance is dealt with.
Here's another example. Take a large coil spring and compress it. Then
suddenly let go. All the stored energy in the spring is suddenly released,
and violently so. If you are near it when it happens, at the very least
it's going to scare the crap out of you, and you might even sustain serious
injury! Now add a "shock absorber". It will let the spring out slowly so
there is no violent pop. It acts as a buffer. This is similar to what the
capacitors (and diodes) do in a controller.
We covered the inductance with the motor, but what about the other side?
There is unavoidable inductance in the battery side too!
The transistors are switching the power from battery to the motor on and off
at pretty high speeds (sometimes 20,000 times per second!) When you wire up
a bunch of cells and batteries to form a pack, you get basically a big loop.
Starts on one end and makes it's way back to the other. Even this single
loop has a enough inductance to generate voltages over the breakdown rating
of the transistor junction. If you were to put in beefy transistors that
could handle the voltage spikes, they would have higher on-resistance and
therefore be not nearly as efficient. You'd need a lot more of them to
handle the current, and your controller would make more heat. Why do this
when you can add capacitors?
The battery loop inductance also works against you both ways, not only does
it want to keep going once on, it also resists getting started. You have to
create a magnetic field in your giant air-cored battery/inductor before you
get useful work flowing to your motor. This is a waste, as you want all
your magnetic fields in the motor, not in your battery box or wiring! The
capacitors also help here, providing quick "local" current for the motor
when the transistors suddenly turn on, and then the batteries refill the
capacitors and "catch up" until end of the cycle when the transistors switch
off.
Hope this helps explain some of this "magic"....
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 5:00 PM
Subject: Controller without caps
just an idea, can a controller work without caps? is there some
electronics reason why it would kill the controller to not have
capacitors?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You might as well start over. By the time you pull off all the parts from
the PCB (a non-trivial task) and make a new PCB, resolder all the parts plus
the new transistors, what are you saving?
I guess you are reusing the housing and mechanical package. Still....
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: Zilla controller insides
Lee Hart wrote:
You can replace the parts, but can't do anything about
the basic board spacings.
Could the board be stripped down and sent out for an "upsized" version
of the same layout for higher voltage/current carrying capacity?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If such is required by legislation or by marketing guys.. It's another
story.
But.. Do you remember the times when you were virgin EV enthustiast ?
The day you first heard about such thing and started to eat your way
through the EV related books or perhaps already surfed through the
"internet" ?
My first thoughts were same "what ? how in earth anyone can manage with
6 hour charging time ?" and "21 kW power for 3000 lbs van ? Someone has
hit his head badly while the design was done ..."
And after few years of using EV thoughts are quite opposite.
"how in earth anyone has patience to seek the cheapest gasoline from
pumps. Always thinking where to buy it cheapest. I charge while I sleep.
How slick is that !." and "ridiculous! no one needs more than 21 kw in
city traffic. All You need is 500 Nm torq and wide enough tires..."
I think many of us has forgotten how we got through the first months
after the revelation. I believe most normal human beings gets here with
similar steps.
Astonishment - doubts - even more astonishment - acceptance - first own
ev - nedra memebership :) - EVerlasting grin
Some day we have 1000 Wh in kg and briefcase battery. Change it in 30
seconds and get another 150 miles of driving. Normal charging as we do
it today.
-Jukka
Peter Gabrielsson kirjoitti:
I generally agree, although outlets capable of supplying the juice are
available in any industrial zone in the US and presumably also in the
rest of the developed world.
The real benefit of ten minute recharge is not one of practicality as
it is marketing. The general uninformed public still thinks they have
to be able to fill up in ten minutes, having that capability removes
an obstacle in the customers mind, whether or not they ever use it is
another matter.
And then there's the CARB 10 minute recharge requirement that seemed
to be intended to keep BEV from getting full ZEV credits.
My personal opinion is that 1 hour recharge is far more practical,
stop for lunch and fill up your car. It would keep the current at a
level that's more in line with what the batteries and associated power
systems normally would see on discharge, reducing the risk of
catastrophic failures.
On 6/1/07, Jukka Järvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
And we come again to the issue: How to get 250 kW outlets all around for
charging ?
I would say that the commercial solutions in few years will have such
capacity that they do not need to be charged in 10 minutes.
Would you think it's already possible to make a car with 600+ mile
range ?
With 150 mile range I have extremely rarely needed any kind of fast
charging. Thou old habits are hard to get rid of. I automaticly plug my
EVs EVery chance I get. :)
Sure.. It's nice to have pack charged in seconds. But I have no use for
such function anymore...
-Jukka
p.s. my humble opinion...
Tehben Dean kirjoitti:
>> ISE and Altair Nanotechnologies in Joint Development Agreement for
>> Li-Ion Packs for Heavy-Duty Vehicles
>> 1 June 2007
>
> For the entire article:
> http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/06/ise_and_altair_.html#more
>
>> ISE Corporation, a developer and manufacturer of electric and
>> hybrid-electric drive systems and components for heavy-duty vehicles,
>> and Altair Nanotechnologies (Altairnano) have entered into an
>> agreement to jointly develop and commercially supply lithium-ion
>> rechargeable battery packs for use in hybrid-electric and all-electric
>> heavy-duty vehicles.
>>
>> Under the agreement, Altairnano will provide NanoSafe cells and
>> batteries for the battery pack based on their proprietary lithium
>> titanate electrode materials, along with data concerning the proper
>> care and management of their cells and batteries.
>>
>> ISE will design the system utilizing its data on operating
>> environments, vehicle shock and vibration criteria, vehicle duty
>> cycles and proprietary software and control electronics. Other
>> cooperative areas will include cell equalization and packaging of the
>> commercial product. The goal is to develop and commercially supply
>> high quality, cost-effective, lithium battery packs for heavy-duty
>> buses, trucks, military vehicles and airport ground support equipment.
>>
>> ISE intends to continue to be a leader in the development of
>> energy storage solutions for heavy duty electric and hybrid electric
>> vehicles. We are excited to have partnered with Altairnano and feel
>> that Altairnano's unique nano technology yields power storage
>> solutions with high power and extremely long life that are ideally
>> suited to maximize the performance of heavy duty hybrid vehicles.
>> —David Mazaika, President and CEO of ISE Corporation
>>
>> Altairnano currently is providing a 35 kWh lithium-ion battery pack
>> for the Phoenix Motorcars all-electric light-duty sport utility truck.
>> (Earlier post.) Separately, AeroVironment announced that it has tested
>> and validated Altairnano and Phoenix Motorcar's claim that the
>> Altairnano battery can be recharged in less than 10 minutes without
>> harm to the battery.
>
> Interesting to note what AeroVironment said about recharging the Altair
> Nano batteries:
> "...AeroVironment announced that it has tested and validated Altairnano
> and Phoenix Motorcar's claim that the Altairnano battery can be
> recharged in less than 10 minutes without harm to the battery."
>
> I want some of those batteries :P~
>
> Tehben
> -Lithium batteries are <accent>sweeet!</accent>... but don't think
about
> them, because its bad for your morale-
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Depends how a BMS is designed. 10 min recharge is indeed good rather
for marketing purposes then practical (and then, of course naysayers
will demand "make it happen with my 120VAC outlet at home, *then* we'll
consider EVs as practical...), but if you require more reasonable 1 hour
recharge, the BMS coping with this is straight forward. Similar upgrade
needed as when you go from weaker to more powerful motor controller.
Beefier power stage with the same control stage.
Normally such a system should be designed so that say 90% of charge is
there in one hour (no balancing), so you can drive away if you have to,
but the bulk of balancing activity happens during charging of remaining
10% of capacity which must happen at lower rate anyway. Perfect
balancing is not necessary on every single cycle, only preventing
overcharge is.
Victor
Marcin Ciosek wrote:
Everything seem to be like a dream for us, EV makers/users (beside a price, of
course) but fast charging with such huge current will make BMSes useless for
balancing and if we take your scenario (charging every 50 miles) with only
one weak battery in our pack will cause capacity loss every charge an you
could not reach next charging station.
So, everything is good from marketing point of view, but real life is not so
simple.
Marcin
On Saturday 02 June 2007 20:02:39 Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
IF we get rid of cross country freeways and rebuilt
the route 66's With charging stations every 50 miles
along the route with the Stuckee at every one with a
charge for free with a cup of coffee and have the
industrial power going to it then we would have EV
heaven
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anybody rented a car trailer to move an EV lately? The prices I'm
getting at the big boys like U-haul, Budget and Penske for one-way
rentals are all close to $1000, and I was hoping for something cheaper.
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found the 1981 Jet Electrica description on the internet, and bought
it sight-unseen
after becoming e-mail friends.
Here is the e-mail list made of my EV requirements and questions one
year ago.
I bought the car and trailered it from Nowhere Nevada. A delightful
experience.
After 4000 miles I am even happier!
*******************************
I live in the San Fernando Valley (Los Angeles).
My need is transporting my granddaughter to and from school.
Two trips a day, level 10 miles each way, a 20 mile round trip with 5
hours charge time after each trip. No night-time or rainy weather driving.
Air conditioning, heater, power steering, and radio are not necessary.
I have 3.6 KW solar, with excess unused capacity.
1. Will a childs (6 year old) seat fit in a rear seat?
2. Can the car be towed? Is Transmission lubrication a problem while towing?
3. Is the car currently registered? Where?
4. Is the car currently drivable?
5. What kind of batteries does it use? Battery make and model? Age?
6. Is there room to replace the batteries with Trojan T105 6 volt golf
cart deep cycle batteries? (LWH=10 1/4, 7 1/8, 11 1/8)
7. Power steering?
8. Power brakes? ABS braking?
9. Mileage on car - total, and under electric drive?
10. Documentation? Instruction manuals, etc.
11. Manual Transmission? How many speeds.
12. Instrumentation. Original? How modified.
13. Heater?
14. Air conditioning?
15. Charger?
16. Exterior condition: Body dents? Rust?
17. Interior condition?
18. Driver head room?
19. Asking price?
20. Can you send me additional pictures?
John, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In Sylmar, San Fernando CA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Or the cells are balanced in a way that after certain amount of cycles
they are almost alike. Then you can have dozens of cycles with out
balancing at all. Lithium cells age in predictable way. As long as we
know (measured and logged) all required parameters.
-Jukka
Victor Tikhonov kirjoitti:
Depends how a BMS is designed. 10 min recharge is indeed good rather
for marketing purposes then practical (and then, of course naysayers
will demand "make it happen with my 120VAC outlet at home, *then* we'll
consider EVs as practical...), but if you require more reasonable 1 hour
recharge, the BMS coping with this is straight forward. Similar upgrade
needed as when you go from weaker to more powerful motor controller.
Beefier power stage with the same control stage.
Normally such a system should be designed so that say 90% of charge is
there in one hour (no balancing), so you can drive away if you have to,
but the bulk of balancing activity happens during charging of remaining
10% of capacity which must happen at lower rate anyway. Perfect
balancing is not necessary on every single cycle, only preventing
overcharge is.
Victor
Marcin Ciosek wrote:
Everything seem to be like a dream for us, EV makers/users (beside a
price, of course) but fast charging with such huge current will make
BMSes useless for balancing and if we take your scenario (charging
every 50 miles) with only one weak battery in our pack will cause
capacity loss every charge an you could not reach next charging station.
So, everything is good from marketing point of view, but real life is
not so simple.
Marcin
On Saturday 02 June 2007 20:02:39 Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
IF we get rid of cross country freeways and rebuilt
the route 66's With charging stations every 50 miles
along the route with the Stuckee at every one with a
charge for free with a cup of coffee and have the
industrial power going to it then we would have EV
heaven
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yowsa! thats ridiculous. You can buy a trailer for that.
try getting a trailer-dolly that just holds the front wheels, or renting
two-way, or both.
You might need to disconnect the driveshaft if you use the dolly.
JF
Bill Dennis wrote:
Anybody rented a car trailer to move an EV lately? The prices I'm
getting at the big boys like U-haul, Budget and Penske for one-way
rentals are all close to $1000, and I was hoping for something cheaper.
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hym, I have opposite experience with high capacity cells. It's very hard to
produce them equal - after 100cycles or so they can differ even 5-8% in
capacity. It means one or more will reach charging cut-off voltage sooner
than rest, while rest will reach low lever faster (due to less amount of
energy accumulated) during discharging. And every cycle situation will repeat
getting higher difference.
With this situation, when you have all cells connected in series and single
charger you won't reach high enough voltage to switch from CC to Constant
Voltage mode.
Marcin
On Saturday 02 June 2007 22:15:33 Jukka Järvinen wrote:
> Or the cells are balanced in a way that after certain amount of cycles
> they are almost alike. Then you can have dozens of cycles with out
> balancing at all. Lithium cells age in predictable way. As long as we
> know (measured and logged) all required parameters.
>
> -Jukka
>
> Victor Tikhonov kirjoitti:
> > Depends how a BMS is designed. 10 min recharge is indeed good rather
> > for marketing purposes then practical (and then, of course naysayers
> > will demand "make it happen with my 120VAC outlet at home, *then* we'll
> > consider EVs as practical...), but if you require more reasonable 1 hour
> > recharge, the BMS coping with this is straight forward. Similar upgrade
> > needed as when you go from weaker to more powerful motor controller.
> > Beefier power stage with the same control stage.
> >
> > Normally such a system should be designed so that say 90% of charge is
> > there in one hour (no balancing), so you can drive away if you have to,
> > but the bulk of balancing activity happens during charging of remaining
> > 10% of capacity which must happen at lower rate anyway. Perfect
> > balancing is not necessary on every single cycle, only preventing
> > overcharge is.
> >
> > Victor
> >
> > Marcin Ciosek wrote:
> >> Everything seem to be like a dream for us, EV makers/users (beside a
> >> price, of course) but fast charging with such huge current will make
> >> BMSes useless for balancing and if we take your scenario (charging
> >> every 50 miles) with only one weak battery in our pack will cause
> >> capacity loss every charge an you could not reach next charging station.
> >>
> >> So, everything is good from marketing point of view, but real life is
> >> not so simple.
> >>
> >> Marcin
> >>
> >> On Saturday 02 June 2007 20:02:39 Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
> >>> IF we get rid of cross country freeways and rebuilt
> >>> the route 66's With charging stations every 50 miles
> >>> along the route with the Stuckee at every one with a
> >>> charge for free with a cup of coffee and have the
> >>> industrial power going to it then we would have EV
> >>> heaven
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, you can assemble a vehicle dolly the you can get from a trailer parts
dealer.
Way back in 1976, I need to haul a EV call Transformer I from Detroit to
Montana. I first call the national center for U-Haul for one of those large
U-Haul trucks. They reserved me a truck in Detroit and made the choice to
pay the dealer in Detroit instead paying the national center over the phone
with a credit card.
The cost the national U-haul center gave me was about $500.00 for a distance
of about 3000 miles. When I went to the dealer, the dealer would not accept
any credit cards, checks or money orders, only cash only. And when he saw
what I was going to transport, he said for me it will cost $1000.00.
I call the U-Haul center and paid them $500.00 by credit card and went to
another dealer. This place look like a rip off place any way. A lot of
funny work was done in the back room.
I drove the U-Haul truck to the EV place which has one of those full type
lifts that you can drive up on. It then raises to the level of the truck
floor bed and drive right in.
Chuck all the wheels on all sides with stack 2x4's nail to the floor. At
home, I use a concrete drive off ramp that they have at some truck lines or
even business's.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: Car Trailer Rental
> Yowsa! thats ridiculous. You can buy a trailer for that.
> try getting a trailer-dolly that just holds the front wheels, or renting
> two-way, or both.
> You might need to disconnect the driveshaft if you use the dolly.
> JF
>
> Bill Dennis wrote:
> > Anybody rented a car trailer to move an EV lately? The prices I'm
> > getting at the big boys like U-haul, Budget and Penske for one-way
> > rentals are all close to $1000, and I was hoping for something cheaper.
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Bill Dennis
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
