EV Digest 6840
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 95 BMW 525i conversion
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: How Controllers Make "free" amps
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Power of DC - ScooterCross
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 95 BMW 525i conversion
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Prius project
by Tom Gocze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: ISE and Altair Nano - Li-Ion Packs for Heavy-Duty Vehicles
by =?UTF-8?B?SnVra2EgSsOkcnZpbmVu?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Prius project
by "Brandon Kruger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: ISE and Altair Nano - now grid stabilization
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Careful!! Re: Prius project
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Power of DC - Intro
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Power of DC - AutoCross
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Power of DC - ScooterCross
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 95 BMW 525i conversion
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Car Trailer Rental
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: 95 BMW 525i conversion (Dmitri)
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Why is there a delay of 1 hour on my messages??
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Why is there a delay of 1 hour on my messages??
by "Brandon Kruger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Why is there a delay of 1 hour on my messages??
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Why is there a delay of 1 hour on my messages??
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: 95 BMW 525i conversion
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Why is there a delay of 1 hour on my messages??
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) More PWM questions (was: 95 BMW 525i conversion)
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Why is there a delay of 1 hour on my messages??
by Steve Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Car Trailer Rental
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Hanging with the Zilla man
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Why is there a delay of 1 hour on my messages??
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: 95 BMW 525i conversion
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: 95 BMW 525i conversion
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
...
and changing the pack to a 300V type requires lots
of smaller AGM type batteries, so the pack cost is about double, too.
John,
If you pay for amount of lead, isn't twice as small AGM *about*
twice as cheap too, so you end up paying the same amount for given
kWh pack?
I realize it's not strictly proportional, but I doubt 288V worth of
twice as small AGMs (say 26Ah) is double of price of 144V worth of
50Ah ones. This would mean 26Ah and 50 Ah cost the same to begin with,
which is certainly not the case.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Myles Twete wrote:
And this is one key selling point of a modern electronic controller versus a
contactor controller.
The contactor controller can only deliver the higher current levels safely
by splitting and paralleling the batteries in the pack.
True... but in every step where the contactor controller is not using
resistors, its efficiency and current multiplication are essentially the
same as a PWM controller.
For example, if you have a 72v system with a contactor controller, when
it is in the 36v step, the motor gets 200 amps when each battery gets
only 100 amps. That's because the pack gets configured for 36v, with two
batteries in parallel, so each delivers half the motor current.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The next event was the ScooterCross.
But first, I know folks want to see some pictures. I'm horrible at
remembering to take pictures. I bought a new digital camera that I
just picked up this past week for the event but with everything going
on and getting things set up and all the running around involved I
just never had time to take pictures.
But some folks did take pictures and we will let you all know when
they are up and when the Power of DC site is updated.
Anyway, after the SCCA folks left and we broke for a late lunch
thanks to Tracy and her trusty electric grill, Mike set up the
ScooterCross event. My 8-year old son Jake has had this event on his
mind the whole week and was excited about racing. I had just built
him a 24-volt scooter (limited to 200 watts) with spare parts laying
around the garage and finished it just in time so he had some
practice with it.
I brought an extra scooter so Mike's daughter was riding that around.
A little Razor E-100.
We set up the course in the same spot the AutoCross was but it was
less then half the distance. Mike put in some tight corners to keep
it interesting and we all did a walkthrough.
Here is the listing of folks in the ScooterCross and their place.
Again, I can't remember all the exact times and exact finishing
standings except the top three. So people who were there will need to
correct me.
ADULTS
1) Chip Gribben - Schwinn Scooter (24-volts, dual 600 watt motors)
2) Darin Gilbert - Razor E-300 (36-volts, 300 watt motor)
3) Aaron - Razor E-200 (24-volts, 200 watt motor with a 12-volt turbo
boost)
4) Bob Rice - Blade-Z (24-volts, 350 watt motor)
5) Mike Harvey - riding different scooters
KIDS
1) Jake Gribben - Z-Rider (24-volts, 200 watts, Currie controller)
2) Mallory Harvey - Riding different scooters
The ScooterCross was a blast and of course my son was at the starting
line even as Mike was planting the cones on the ground.
We all took turns. I can barely remember the times but Darin and I
were competing for first and second place. His scooter was solid on
the course and he had years of experience riding electric
motorcycles. And he had just turned a best time of 23 seconds. I can
select my scooter to run on either one 600 watt motor or two 600 watt
motors so things were close with me running just one motor. It pops
wheelies running two and is pretty dangerous but that was the only
way I felt I could overtake Darin who was running 36-volts so I
turned it up a notch and flicked on the switch to run two motors. I
was finally able to run 22 seconds. I did another 22 second run but
hit a cone a the end of the course.
Aaron had a cool scooter with a 12-volt turbo mode he added to his
Razor E-200. He let a few folks including Mallory ride it. Bob did
great with his Blade-Z navigating the cones
My son Jakehad a great time with a 28 second run so he took first in
the Kids.
Anyway that was a fun day.
After the ScooterCross everyone was pretty overheated so we called it
a day and decided to cancel the Road Rally. We decided that Joe was
the only one who could make it so we awarded him first place in the
Road Rally.
We went back to our Hotels and Mike went back home and we met again
later that evening at Richardson' Restaurant. It was fun talking to
everyone and hearing about their projects. I was taken aback that
people travelled pretty far to get to the event so I was hoping folks
were having a good time and it was worth their while.
Next . . . the Power of DC Pool Party on Sunday
Chip Gribben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You will, and perhaps better performance since you won't need
to switch gears. 68 kW is 68 kW, AC or DC. I guess what John is
saying, if you only feed 144V to the AC system, because it is
more current limited by design, it will be power limited too.
DC likes lower voltage and don't mind higher currents.
AC likes higher voltages and lower currents, but if you also run
it at low voltage of course you knowingly put it in
disadvantageous conditions. If you limit DC
system voltage to, say, 72V, you limit power and cripple performance
just the same as you limit AC system current. At the end, you're
limiting power in either case.
If you don't want to use higher than 144V battery, go DC.
Victor
Tehben Dean wrote:
On Jun 4, 2007, at 6:50 AM, John Wayland wrote:
Max torque will be about half that of the DC system, so even with the
full 68 kw system the 0-60 will be a lot slower, hill climbing will
be more arduous.
So are you saying that with a 300v AC system you still won't get the
performance of a 144v DC system?
Tehben Dean
-Lithium batteries are <accent>sweeet!</accent>... but don't think
about them, its bad for your morale-
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I bought an '04 Prius for my long distance runs.
Been looking over the innards of them and I really am amazed at the
construction of the transaxle, which also contains the
two electric motors. Seems like something to play with some day if
the ICE ever died.
The other reason I got a Prius is that it is a salvage vehicle,
having been in a front end accident. It is not hurt too bad and I
will spend most of my time fixing
sheet metal. And it still runs. And it was $4,900. And best yet, my
wife paid for it.
THE PERFECT WOMAN!
Now to put it back together again and make it a Plug In.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes. yes. I'm not saying it's not doable but it will not be cheap and
actually I have strong feeling that they are not even needed.
I have done my self a 100 kWh Lion pack for power leveling. Impullses up
to 1 MW were possible to take out of it.
Making it good and several units you'll get price down to $100k. So how
many would be required in a mid sized town ? 300 perhaps ?
There is thou another side of the coin. What if those stations would
work as integrated stabilization components to the grid at the same time
?? Now .. that would lower the cost since there is another payer. If the
grid fails these units could provide electricity to the nearby houses
and industry. One 20" container could hold nicely 2MWh of energy. Hm...
-Jukka
Kaido Kert kirjoitti:
On 6/2/07, Jukka Järvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
And we come again to the issue: How to get 250 kW outlets all around for
charging ?
you get it without modifying the grid, by using any stationary energy
storage system. Flywheels or a set of similar high-discharge capable
and long life batteries would fit the bill.
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are a lucky, lucky man. Wish I could find a deal like that. Is
the '04 model a Gen1 or Gen2? I believe you would have a lot more luck
converting a Gen2 Prius to plug-in than a Gen1.
--
Brandon Kruger
http://bmk789.googlepages.com
http://cafepress.com/altfuel
On 6/4/07, Tom Gocze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Well, I bought an '04 Prius for my long distance runs.
Been looking over the innards of them and I really am amazed at the
construction of the transaxle, which also contains the
two electric motors. Seems like something to play with some day if
the ICE ever died.
The other reason I got a Prius is that it is a salvage vehicle,
having been in a front end accident. It is not hurt too bad and I
will spend most of my time fixing
sheet metal. And it still runs. And it was $4,900. And best yet, my
wife paid for it.
THE PERFECT WOMAN!
Now to put it back together again and make it a Plug In.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thats an interesting idea. Batteries look expensive until you price a gas
turbine.
Another market might be co-generation-stabilization and emergency power. Permitting diesel gensets is getting harder
with the air pollution agencies, and they are notoriously unreliable due mostly to improper maintenance and testing.
Is anyone working on this Jukka?
JF
Jukka Järvinen wrote:
What if those stations would
work as integrated stabilization components to the grid at the same time
?? Now .. that would lower the cost since there is another payer. If the
grid fails these units could provide electricity to the nearby houses
and industry. One 20" container could hold nicely 2MWh of energy. Hm...
-Jukka
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tom, Brandon and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Brandon Kruger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Prius project
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 18:43:47 -0500
>You are a lucky, lucky man. Wish I could find a deal like
>that. Is the '04 model a Gen1 or Gen2? I believe you would
>have a lot more luck converting a Gen2 Prius to plug-in
>than a Gen1.
>
>--
>Brandon Kruger
>http://bmk789.googlepages.com
>http://cafepress.com/altfuel
>
>
>On 6/4/07, Tom Gocze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Well, I bought an '04 Prius for my long distance runs.
>> Been looking over the innards of them and I really am
>> amazed at the construction of the transaxle, which also
>> contains the two electric motors. Seems like something to
>> play with some day if the ICE ever died.
>>
>> The other reason I got a Prius is that it is a salvage
>> vehicle, having been in a front end accident.
In Fla, if it has a salvage title because the
body/frame was bent, you can't use it's body in any future
car as they won't issue you a title on it.
So check your local DOT about this before putting
money down on these. I sure would like to get my hands on
a couple of those e motors.
Jerry Dycus
It is not
>> hurt too bad and I will spend most of my time fixing
>> sheet metal. And it still runs. And it was $4,900. And
>> best yet, my wife paid for it.
>> THE PERFECT WOMAN!
>>
>> Now to put it back together again and make it a Plug In.
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some folks are interested in how things went at the Power of DC. I
already sent this once, but it looks like several messages got lopped
off in the last digest so here it goes again.
We had an uninvited guest show up for the Power of DC this past
weekend. Saturday was great but Tropical Storm Barry decided to drop
in on Sunday and washed out the drag race event. Only Joe Lado's
Fiero and my Ford Escort were able to get to tech and make a run down
the track before the deluge hit. This is the first time in 7 years
the Power of DC drag race has been cancelled due to the wrath of
Mother Nature. But that is no consulation to the folks who traveled
far to race. I hope to reschedule an impromptu Power of DC drag race
later in the year if anyone is interested.
But the good news is we had a fantastic day on Saturday (thanks to
Mike Harvey and Tracy Wolfe for setting up all the arrangements). It
was scorching hot, but everything went great. We ran the AutoCross
and ScooterCross without any major catastrophies except a cone or
two. We didn't have time to run the Range Rally since our battery
packs were pretty well spent by the end of the AutoCross. But we did
award Joe Lado 1st Place for the Range Rally since his battery pack
was in better shape, capacity wise, then everyone elses at the end of
the day. Not quite the way the Tour de Sol would run things, but hey,
when you run a small event yourself you can make up the rules as you
go along :-)
I'm sure Joe and Mike, the other people who attended the event will
pipe in. But here is my recollection of what went down.
On Thursday night I discovered that my Ford Escort's CV boot was
sliced and the right side had felt a little rough in the turns so I
scurried around trying to find a shop to replace the axle, joint and
CV boot. I had a conversation with the SCCA guy the day before when
were planning the event and he mentioned they checked the joints on
the cars so I went "oh-oh." Fortunately, a shop in town was able to
replace the entire axle on Friday. I had the car all charged and
ready to go for the race but ended up using all that energy up to
drive it to the shop and back. After I got the car back I was finally
able to leave at 10:30 pm Friday night and arrived around midnight at
the hotel. It had rained on the way up there but fortunately,
everything was dry Saturday morning. Mike and his entourage were
already there Saturday morning at the Southend Shopping Center in
Hagerstown and the SCCA had set up the AutoCross Course and their
driver was testing it with his Porsche Boxter. We think he was
showing off:-) but he was really good. Tom Sigman, from PEPCO,
arrived to hook up the generator to the Spider Box with thanks to
John Wayland for sending that over.
I arrived and unloaded my 144-volt Ford Escort and dual 600 watt
motor Schwinn Scooter, the Power of DC shirts, programs, banners, the
Etek motor donated by Brian Hall and Jim Husted's fantastic electric
blue motor he donated. Joe Lado and his family was already their with
his Destiny 2000 bright yellow Fiero. Mike and Tracy were there with
his fantastic White Cabriolet. Valerie Myers drove to the event in
her bright blue Sparrow. Darin Gilbert arrived later in the morning
with his updated 96 volt Pirahna motorcycle, his 36-volt Razor E-300
scooter and a brand new spider box he built for the event. More on
that later. Bob Rice was already there and hanging out with everyone
and brought along his Blade-Z Scooter. And Dave Cover arrived with
his newly converted NiCd Porsche. My wife and kids later arrived and
my 8-year old son Jake brought his Razor E-100 and a 24-volt scooter
I had made for him with different scooter parts lying around the
shop. And the West Virginia University team led by Roy Nutter
brought their electric Formula 1 car.
Visitors included Todd Dore from the Fox Valley EAA who drove down
from Illinois in his Manzanita Micro Prius conversion which was
pretty cool. Also Ken and Heidi Thomas from Texas had flown in for
the event. Dave Erb had come from Ohio. Eric Cardwell came from
Virginia, Dennis Pestka came from St Louis with some cool extra cable
to give away and friends and members of EVA/DC were there to support
the event. Also some students from a college in Pennsylvania were
there to check out the cars. They will be racing at our event next year.
So we had a pretty good crowd there Saturday. Hagerstown News Channel
25 showed up and interviewed Mike Harvey. We actually had some people
come to the drag race on Sunday after hearing about the event on News
Channel 25 Saturday evening.
With everyone there the SCCA folks were getting antsy for us to get
racing.
Next . . . The AutoCross and ScooterCross
Chip Gribben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Saturday morning the SCCA crew had set up our AutoCross course at the
Southend Shopping Center in Hagerstown. The area was about 450 feet
long by 250 feet wide. The SCCA had given us a bit of leeway in
planning the course since we were novices and for the possible
effects of the battery weight going around the turns. Mike had joined
the SCCA and had some instruction.
Around 11:00 am all the racers gathered around for a walkthrough of
the course. This is who was racing and the best I can recall about
the cars and the order they placed. I know, I need to get all the
facts straight. I just can't remember everything.
1) Dave Cover - Porsche 944 (Ni-Cd batteries, 9-inch Advanced DC
motor, Zilla controller)
2) Chip Gribben - Blue Ford Escort (144-volts, 8-inch Advanced DC
XP-1227, Optima Red Tops, Raptor 600 controller)
3) Mike Harvey - White VW Cabriolet (108 volts, flooded 6-volt
batteries, 8 inch Advanced DC motor)
4) Valerie Myers - Sparrow (156 volts, Optima Yellow Tops, 8-inch
Advanced DC motor)
5) Joe Lado - Yellow Destiny 2000 Fiero (120 volts, 9-inch Advanced
DC motor, Curtis controller)
6) West Virginia University - Formula 1 Racer (Optima Red Top batteries)
I liked how they had arranged the pointer cones which are cones that
have been placed on their sides to tell you what side of the of the
lane you should be in. In a sea of orange cones this really helps.
They also had the timing equipment installed. And they supplied the
helmets. They usually organize events up to 300 cars so this was a
breeze for them.
The SCCA folks were a little concerned about the Sparrow. It appeared
to be top heavy to them, but Valerie knew her car well and we
explained the battery placement in the car helped keep it stable. I
think she was the first to go and made it through the course with a
great time.
Mike has the times so I'm just going on total recollection now and a
sunburned brain. Joe made it through the course at about 38 seconds.
Mike made it through consistently at about 35 seconds. He said he's
going with AGMs next year.
The West Virginia Team had technical problem with their Formula car
so they couldn't run unfortunately.
Dave Cover and I had a little competition going. I can't recall all
his times but we kept going back and forth for first and second place
throughout the day. But he finally threw down the gauntlet and turned
in a 28.433 beating my best time of 29.192. I decided to throw him a
curve and let the SCCA professional driver take the wheel of my car
without Dave knowing. He screached the tires and was tearing up the
course with the car and turned in a 27 second time. As soon as he got
out of the car he had that "EV grin" on his face and said, "That was
fun!" He was impressed with how the car could take off so quickly.
Dave saw the timer and couldn't believe it. I had him going there for
a couple minutes when he finally caught on. So he let the guy drive
his Porsche and turned in a 26 second time. So he bettered both Dave
and I by 2 seconds on our best runs.
Anyway that was fun. The SCCA folks packed up their stuff around 3:00
and we put the cars on the generator.
Now it was time for the ScooterCross . . .
Chip Gribben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The next event was the ScooterCross.
But first, I know folks want to see some pictures. I'm horrible at
remembering to take pictures. I bought a new digital camera that I
just picked up this past week for the event but with everything going
on and getting things set up and all the running around involved I
just never had time to take pictures.
But some folks did take pictures and we will let you all know when
they are up and when the Power of DC site is updated.
Anyway, after the SCCA folks left and we broke for a late lunch
thanks to Tracy and her trusty electric grill, Mike set up the
ScooterCross event. My 8-year old son Jake has had this event on his
mind the whole week and was excited about racing. I had just built
him a 24-volt scooter (limited to 200 watts) with spare parts laying
around the garage and finished it just in time so he had some
practice with it.
I brought an extra scooter so Mike's daughter was riding that around.
A little Razor E-100.
We set up the course in the same spot the AutoCross was but it was
less then half the distance. Mike put in some tight corners to keep
it interesting and we all did a walkthrough.
Here is the listing of folks in the ScooterCross and their place.
Again, I can't remember all the exact times and exact finishing
standings except the top three. So people who were there will need to
correct me.
ADULTS
1) Chip Gribben - Schwinn Scooter (24-volts, dual 600 watt motors)
2) Darin Gilbert - Razor E-300 (36-volts, 300 watt motor)
3) Aaron - Razor E-200 (24-volts, 200 watt motor with a 12-volt turbo
boost)
4) Bob Rice - Blade-Z (24-volts, 350 watt motor)
5) Mike Harvey - riding different scooters
KIDS
1) Jake Gribben - Z-Rider (24-volts, 200 watts, Currie controller)
2) Mallory Harvey - Riding different scooters
The ScooterCross was a blast and of course my son was at the starting
line even as Mike was planting the cones on the ground.
We all took turns. I can barely remember the times but Darin and I
were competing for first and second place. His scooter was solid on
the course and he had years of experience riding electric
motorcycles. And he had just turned a best time of 23 seconds. I can
select my scooter to run on either one 600 watt motor or two 600 watt
motors so things were close with me running just one motor. It pops
wheelies running two and is pretty dangerous but that was the only
way I felt I could overtake Darin who was running 36-volts so I
turned it up a notch and flicked on the switch to run two motors. I
was finally able to run 22 seconds. I did another 22 second run but
hit a cone a the end of the course.
Aaron had a cool scooter with a 12-volt turbo mode he added to his
Razor E-200. He let a few folks including Mallory ride it. Bob did
great with his Blade-Z navigating the cones
My son Jakehad a great time with a 28 second run so he took first in
the Kids.
Anyway that was a fun day.
After the ScooterCross everyone was pretty overheated so we called it
a day and decided to cancel the Road Rally. We decided that Joe was
the only one who could make it so we awarded him first place in the
Road Rally.
We went back to our Hotels and Mike went back home and we met again
later that evening at Richardson' Restaurant. It was fun talking to
everyone and hearing about their projects. I was taken aback that
people travelled pretty far to get to the event so I was hoping folks
were having a good time and it was worth their while.
Next . . . the Power of DC Pool Party on Sunday
Chip Gribben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dale Ulan wrote:
So are you saying that with a 300v AC system you still won't get the
performance of a 144v DC system?
Performance has little to do with whether a vehicle is AC or DC, or
whether its pack voltage is 144v or 300v. The key point is how much
power the controller+motor can draw from the pack at various speeds. A
100kw drive will beat a 50kw drive, regardless of voltage or AC/DC.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about a tow bar attached to the front of the car? Some of the ones sold
for towing a car behind an RV fold up and can be left attached to the car.
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dmitri wrote:
Check out this page http://www.4qdtec.com/pwm-01.html
Quote: "You should see from the above that, if the drive MOSFET is on
for a 50% duty cycle, motor voltage is 50% of battery voltage and,
because battery current only flows when the MOSFET is on, battery
current is only flowing for 50% of the time so the average battery
current is only 50% of the motor current!"
thanks but that seems more like a conclusion than an explanation to me.
is it the inductance in the motor it runs off in the off time? or how is
it 'seen' the the motor current is double.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
what gives..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would most likely suspect a bandwidth bottleneck on the SJSU
servers, but I don't really know how the list's servers are organized.
Maybe David can shine some light on the situation.
Brandon Kruger
http://bmk789.googlepages.com
http://cafepress.com/altfuel
On 6/4/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
what gives..
--
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Because it got tangled up with all these things going on the Internet
commercially. They want to deliver vast amounts of information over the
Internet. And again, the Internet is not something you just dump
something on. It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes. And if you
don't understand those tubes can be filled and if they are filled, when
you put your message in, it gets in line and it's going to be delayed by
anyone that puts into that tube enormous amounts of material, enormous
amounts of material.
Danny
Brandon Kruger wrote:
I would most likely suspect a bandwidth bottleneck on the SJSU
servers, but I don't really know how the list's servers are organized.
Maybe David can shine some light on the situation.
Brandon Kruger
http://bmk789.googlepages.com
http://cafepress.com/altfuel
On 6/4/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
what gives..
--
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But they arrive out of sequence.
ironically though my request to know why there was a delay arrived
instantly. my previous message certainly did not though
and again, arrive out of sequence so can't be a simple bottleneck situation
Brandon Kruger skrev:
I would most likely suspect a bandwidth bottleneck on the SJSU
servers, but I don't really know how the list's servers are organized.
Maybe David can shine some light on the situation.
Brandon Kruger
http://bmk789.googlepages.com
http://cafepress.com/altfuel
On 6/4/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
what gives..
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That burnout was without battery in the car at all.
Victor
Dale Ulan wrote:
Wrightspeed X1, Tesla, and AC Propulsion's TZero are all AC and
they perform pretty well. Expensive, but fast. I recall seeing
an impressive burnout with Victor's ACRX....
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I don't know, but you're not the only one. Listproc apparently gets in a snit
now and then. For example, I might send 3 posts in one smtp transaction.
Two might cross the list within 5-10 minutes, and the other might take hours.
(Of course this doesn't always happen, but it HAS happened a couple of
times.)
I suspect that this is part of an antispam strategy, and that certain
mysterious keywords or phrases in either an address or a message body
raise Listproc's suspicion. Every now and then it seems to hold a message
for a while, perhaps (guessing here) waiting to see if you send anything else
that looks like spam; if you don't, it sends the message on through. Again
this is pure conjecture on my part, so don't take it too seriously.
Remember, gang, Listproc is on its way out at SJSU. Patience. Soon we'll
dispense with all of Listproc's bugs and discover a whole new set of Mailman
bugs. ;-)
David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/
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Look at his diagram. There are 2 states for his PWM switch. One is battery
to motor, as you'd expect, the other state is motor to motor (motor short).
The inductance of the motor keeps current flowing in the motor during the
off time when the motor is "shorted". Keep in mind the PWM is switching
back and forth about 20,000 times per second. The duty cycle between the
modes is varied over time to get the speed control. At 1/4 speed setting,
the Battery to motor switch is on 25% of the time and the motor short is on
75% of the time. When you bring the demand speed ("throttle") down fast,
the kinetic energy is still high, and motor current begins to rise rapidly,
so when the battery switch closes a bunch of power rushes back into the
batteries, which is regen current. If you leave the motor short switch on
100% of the time, that's not regen, it's going to just make heat in the
motor windings. His controllers will not switch out of a minimum duty cycle
until regen current falls to a low threshold value.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: 95 BMW 525i conversion (Dmitri)
Dmitri wrote:
Check out this page http://www.4qdtec.com/pwm-01.html
Quote: "You should see from the above that, if the drive MOSFET is on for
a 50% duty cycle, motor voltage is 50% of battery voltage and, because
battery current only flows when the MOSFET is on, battery current is only
flowing for 50% of the time so the average battery current is only 50% of
the motor current!"
thanks but that seems more like a conclusion than an explanation to me. is
it the inductance in the motor it runs off in the off time? or how is it
'seen' the the motor current is double.
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On Mon, 2007-06-04 at 23:28 -0400, David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
>
> Remember, gang, Listproc is on its way out at SJSU. Patience. Soon we'll
> dispense with all of Listproc's bugs and discover a whole new set of Mailman
> bugs. ;-)
>
Well, we've been hearing about this for long enough that I have to ask
(tongue in cheek): Will we get Mailman before or after Lithium batteries
become affordable? :-)
--Steve
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I have a question about those. Is a car dynamically stable going backwards.
If you back a car with one of those tow bars, will the front tires steer the
way you move them with the tow vehicle? In other words, when backing does it
steer just like a trailer, or is it difficult?
I've only towed big 30 ft trailers with my 1-ton. Never a car on all 4 wheels
with a tow bar. Tow rope yes, but you can't back with one of those :-O
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 5:39 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Car Trailer Rental
>
>
> How about a tow bar attached to the front of the car? Some of the ones sold
> for towing a car behind an RV fold up and
> can be left attached to the car.
>
> Bill
>
>
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Hey everyone
Figured I'd get you all the poop on how much freaking
fun I had with Otmar last Saturday 8^)
As this was out of the blue for me I was pretty stoked
(as if a planned visit would be less). Anyway I guess
it's not always bad being the "motor guy" although
having a big old truck to haul bikes and who lives
close to the airport can't hurt, LMAO. See I'm
keeping it real but it does sound cool, "hey gotta run
Otmars calling me" 8^) Nothing wrong with not
pointing out that I was just a glorified taxi or in
fact the only EV related person in the area 8^P
Having told Otmar, "no problem" I scrambled my ass
off looking for someone to watch my daughter Kayla for
the day. I'm like, sis, it's Otmar!... Please!
She's like "what the hells an Otmar?" LMAO!
After the usual brother sister negotiations (I
threatened to smother her with a pillow like when we
we're kids)(I'm oldest, LMAO) she eagerly agreed and
adjusted her schedule 8^) Thanks sis.
I couldn't fall asleep that night like that kid on the
Disney commercial.. I'm to excited to sleep. On top
of the controller status thing, this is a guy who got
to destroy motors for ADC okay, so he's like my wet
dream, LMAO. I finally drifted off counting fuzzy
white little "what if" questions I'd want to talk
about 3 AM 8^)
I thought that he'd said he'd be taking off about 9 AM
with a flight time of about 45 minutes. I was up
bright and early 4AM and after 37 cups of coffee went
and hosed out my nasty work truck at least to the
point they wouldn't vomit getting in, 8^o hehe.
About 11AM I'm thinking that Wayland must have chumped
me, either by having Ot place the call, or, by hearing
that he was coming to see me, "created" some issue
where he needed Otmar, crashing my party, LMAO!
Being I had just razzed John pretty hard it's
something I could easily see, almost expect. In fact
by 11:30 I was pissed I had fell for it and having not
seen it from the start! Freaking Wayland!
Having never actually activated my "Bat phone" I was
unsure of protocol. I decided after much discussion
with myself that I would give him a call! I mean
screw it, I'm not gonna wait around all day for
nothing, hell him and John are probably kicking it at
his house laughing their asses off. Entering in the
secret code I half expected to have Pizza Hut answer
the phone.
As the phone begins to ring, I start having doubt's,
what if this was the Zilla masters number! (the guy
who sold it to me for 10 bucks said it was real,
LMAO). I started thing, ohhh man, he's right in the
middle of something. By ring four I'm ready to hang
up, but then I'd be the guy who made him stop and then
hung up on him, LMAO! He'd just auto-dial back to
find the chump just to see what was so important it
couldn't wait, at least long enough for him to get to
the phone! I've heard of black lists, ohh God! what
have I done! Ohh crap!
By ring 5 I'm returning to the fact that Wayland's got
me good, I'll come back to the list and pony up to my
dorkdom 8^(
Hello?
Ohh crap, Um, is this Otmar?
Yeah, is this Jim?
Yeah.. umm...I just thought I'd check in and..
I was going to give ya a call, but I'm in pre-flight
right now. (ohh crap, he was busy 8^o ) We'll be
leaving in 15 with a 45 minute flight.
Alright then see you in an hour. It's now noon.
I got an hour to kill, no wife, no kids, and a brain
about to explode, LMAO. I play a little free chip
poker now and then so I got on and lost 17000 chips in
10 minutes, just kidding.
As 1PM approached I decided I better mosie on over to
the Zilla lair and pick up the scaled one 8^) Didn't
know he has a Redmond lair or that Mapquest actually
lists it, anyway 8^)
Unauthorized to actually enter I waited patiently
outside. As I waited I went back to my thoughts of
Wayland and Ot laughing their guts out right now as
they have further duped me! OMG this is gonna be the
all time best EV punked joke ever! And I'm the guest
of honor! (serves me right for the happy birthday
Princess prank I pulled on Wayland in Joliet, but
still, this was going to be so much better!) Being I
was hip deep already I decided to hang out till John
called me or Otmar showed up!
Being long I've decided to make it two parts
cya there
Hope you enjoyed
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/
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David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
I suspect that this is part of an antispam strategy,
I think you are right. the single line message where I asked why it is
delayed got through right away where as a reply to a previous post was
delayed.
There is a nasty tendency for spam to be used as an excuse to exercise
very poor judgment on filtering strategies. Idiot after idiot more than
happy to cause all kinds of havoc in the name of spam fighting. An email
based forum is slow enough as it is without an unelievably unwarranted 1
hour delay at random.
Is any one in control of these policies or has it taken on a life of its
own?
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: 95 BMW 525i conversion
That burnout was without battery in the car at all.
Victor
And no 'stench cord ether! Done on Caps!Capaciters! Really. It blew us
speck- taters away. Who'd a thunk it!At Woodburn a few years ago. I THINK
I have it on Vidio?Gotta dig around.
Bob
Dale Ulan wrote:
Wrightspeed X1, Tesla, and AC Propulsion's TZero are all AC and
they perform pretty well. Expensive, but fast. I recall seeing
an impressive burnout with Victor's ACRX....
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database:
269.8.7/830 - Release Date: 6/3/2007 12:47 PM
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Hello to Dale and All,
Dale Ulan wrote:
So are you saying that with a 300v AC system you still won't get the
performance of a 144v DC system?
In the context of the very heavy conversion vehicle the thread was based
on, yes. Both of the systems I wrote about were essentially the same
horsepower, but the DC system that pumps 1000 torque-producing amps
through the gutsy series-wound DC motor (known for its awesome low end
torque) offers nearly twice the torque as the AC system...twice! When
your vehicle is in the 4000+ lb. range, you 'need' torque to get all
that mass moving, to pull hills, or to pass effectively. So the answer
is 'yes', the 300V AC system at an estimated 165 ft. lbs. of torque will
not match the DC system at 300 ft. lbs. of torque, where both motors
make about the same hp.
Wrightspeed X1, Tesla, and AC Propulsion's TZero are all AC and
they perform pretty well. Expensive, but fast.
This has been brought up many times before, that is, folks looking to
bolster AC performance use the above very expensive high end cars as an
example.
The Wrightspeed X1 is perhaps the most irritating, because it is
anything but representative of a real car...it has no doors, no roof,
and is essentially a motorcycle with four wheels. Yes, it's very quick
'and' fast, but not because it has an AC system in it. It's fast because
it only weighs 1536 lbs., it has a healthy 236 hp with 182 ft. lbs. of
torque, and it has the exotic high end batteries that can supply the
power without being too heavy...whether AC or DC, that's a lot of power
for something that only weighs a pinch over 1500 lbs. and it's easy to
be that light when you omit most of the parts of a real car to get there
and have such a light pack. Take that same vehicle with the same battery
pack and drop in White Zombie's Zilla Z2K and its Siamese 8 DC motor
that make ~300 horsepower and a staggering 772 ft. lbs. of torque and
see what happens! Better still, take the AC system out of this 'skeleton
car' and put it in a 2580 lb. car, like White Zombie with its 840 lbs.
of lead acid batteries, and watch the performance drop! The Wrightspeed
doesn't do anything to show off an AC system, if anything, it hurts the
whole electric car performance argument by implying that the only way
for an EV to have killer performance, is to strip the vehicle to nothing
more than a tube frame with wheels...not too impressive.
Until the ridiculous Wrightspeed showed up, the tZero was the car that
held the title for all the above stated reasons...minimalist,
non-functioning hop-over doors, questionable build quality, and again,
an ultra-high price with the most exotic batteries around. Quick and
fast? You bet. But, remove the AC drive and drop in a DC drive with more
horsepower and gobs more torque, and the performance would jump to a
much higher level. When the tZero had lead acid batteries and weighed
about 140 lbs. 'less' than White Zombie, its best 1/4 mile ET was 13.24
seconds...compare that to White Zombie's DC system that pushes a full
bodied steel car 140 lbs. heavier, to a 12.1 ET. Also consider that the
tZero lead acid version was priced at around $75,000...White Zombie?
About $16,000!
Now...the Tesla at least, has a real full functioning body and it is
absolutely, a real car. It's performance is less spectacular than the
above minimalist machines (rumor has it, that the 0-60 is presently
closer to 5 seconds than their target of 4 seconds) but it's still very
respectable, and for me, it's the best argument for AC. Again though, it
performs well because it has a good power-to-weight ratio and very
strong batteries, not because it has an AC drive system. I do think,
that the AC drive is more appropriate than a DC drive for a high priced
sports car designed to go head to head with other high cost sports cars,
because of the motor's simplicity and brushless-commutator-less
features, and that wonderful regen. It's a hard sell to offer an exotic
high dollar sports car with scream'n performance with the accompanying
warning, "Be careful at 135 mph that you don't fireball the motor or
over-rev it and disintegrate the com." :-)
I recall seeing
an impressive burnout with Victor's ACRX....
Yeah...I was the one that egged him on to do that...on capacitors with
not a single battery on board! Yes, the AC drive lit 'em up pretty bad,
too. In spite of the fact that Victor and I often disagree on the AC-DC
stuff, he and I are friends and we respect each other's viewpoint.
Victor has a very well deserved good reputation in the EV business and
he's a done us all a great service by making affordable AC drives
available. If he could only supply me with a 350 kw AC drive for
$10,000, I'd remove my DC system in a heartbeat and enjoy arc-less
commutation, high revs, and a far more efficient drive system (at drag
racing high levels of power) that would certainly produce even quicker
1/4 mile ETs. Of course, no such AC system is available at 2 or even 3
times the price :-(
I'm not saying AC can't perform...I've never said that. What I have
consistently said, is that dollar for dollar, at least for the present
time, AC cannot even begin to match DC in terms of raw performance. Give
me $10,000 for either an AC drive or a DC drive with the goal of making
the most hp 'and' torque, and I'll take the DC system every time!
I did not intend for my response to spark the AC-DC wars again, it was
only an honest assessment of Guy's choices for either AC or DC for his
proposed BMW conversion. He specifically stated he was going to use a
144V pack of flooded batteries, then asked which system he should
consider (AC or DC) for his heavy conversion. I feel he is best off
using a DC system that will make substantial torque to offset his hp
limitations that come with the voltage ceiling of 144V...even Victor
agreed with me on this:
>I guess what John is saying, if you only feed 144V to the AC system,
because it is
>more current limited by design, it will be power limited too. DC likes
lower voltage and don't mind higher currents.
>AC likes higher voltages and lower currents, but if you also run it at
low voltage of course you knowingly put it in
>disadvantageous conditions. If you don't want to use higher than 144V
battery, go DC.
I would add, that even if the AC system was run at its more optimal 300V
area in this proposed BMW conversion, its sub 200 ft. lbs. of torque
compared to the DC's 300 ft. lbs. of torque, would still have the car at
a performance disadvantage considering the 4000+ lbs. of weight it would
have to move around. And don't forget, the DC system will cost half as much.
See Ya.....John Wayland
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