EV Digest 6842
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Why is there a delay of 1 hour on my messages??
by Tom Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Careful!! Re: Prius project
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) AC vs DC performance (was: 95 BMW 525i conversion)
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: ISE and Altair Nano - now grid stabilization
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Careful!! Re: Prius project
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Car Trailer Rental
by "David S" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 95 BMW 525i conversion
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Power of DC - Sunday's Pool Party (the drag race)
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) National Clean Vehicle Conference
by "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) TdS Report #2: Nancy Hazard speaks: Tour de Sol Highlights -- and Where Do
We Go from Here?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: 95 BMW 525i conversion
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) New England EAA Chapter Meeting
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) June 12th Seattle EV Meeting - Dont miss IT.
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Careful!! Re: Prius project
by "chad plantenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 95 BMW 525i conversion
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: New England EAA Chapter Meeting THIS SAT!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Careful!! Re: Prius project
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: 95 BMW 525i conversion
by "Guy Stockwell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Power of DC - Sunday's Pool Party (the drag race)
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 2007-06-04 at 23:28 -0400, David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
> I suspect that this is part of an antispam strategy, and that certain
> mysterious keywords or phrases in either an address or a message body
> raise Listproc's suspicion. Every now and then it seems to hold a message
> for a while, perhaps (guessing here) waiting to see if you send anything else
> that looks like spam; if you don't, it sends the message on through. Again
> this is pure conjecture on my part, so don't take it too seriously.
You are absolutely correct here. It's called "greylisting".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greylisting
Basically the mailserver looks at your message and if it decides that it
might be spam, it says "come back later", some time later your mail
server tries again. Nearly all spammers don't bother to try again.
The server is clever enough to authorise your address after the first
greylisting, so if a message takes a couple of hours to get through, and
you post a message saying "what gives?" the mailserver has already
decided you are not spam and lets you straight through. The
authorisation doesn't last forever, so even if you post regularly, you
will get greylisted occasionally.
A few months ago I investigated the server and have confirmed that the
server is greylisting. Unfortunatly it bounces my mail immediately
saying I'm a spammer, but doesn't tell me why it thinks that. (I resend
my mail via another server.)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I didn't catch where he is, but in California it usually means the
vehicle was "totaled" by the insurance company. My 95 grand am was
totaled by the insurance company, they gave me the check and then I
bought it back for $161.00, The salvage value. The title goes to the
insurance company then back to me as salvage without leaving my front
yard. They like to do this, repair costs are comically inflated here.
(dent to left front fender where off duty cop ran into it while it was
parked. 3 estimates from "approved" body shops were within 10$ of each
other at $3900 )
I mention this because someone's EV may end up in a similar situation
since most of us convert/recycle older vehicles.
The first time I went through this I didn't know that I could buy it
back for salvage value and lost a really good car, I wanted it fixed but
the insurance company insisted on totaling.(water damage to motor) I
later found that the shop it got towed to bought it back for salvage
value, fixed it, and resold it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been reading with interest this discussion on the merits of DC vs
AC drive systems, as I went through alot of wrestling with which to do
for my conversion too. The benefit of torque can't be discounted --
my diesel rabbit seems quite powerful (except on long hills where the
lack of horsepower shows), because it has good low end torque, even
though peak horsepower is probably about 35 - 40HP (9,000 feet
elevation and it was only rated at 52 at sea level).
My question is about the DC systems. I assume that all of these
discussions have been referring to series DC motors. What type of
characteristics can I expect from a separately excited DC motor? I've
got one of the 13" GE separately excited motors (21HP rated at 96
volts), with a base rpm of 1,000 at 96 volts. Planning on running it
at 144 or 120 volts I think. It's rated for a maximum of 144 volts I
believe.
I sort of assumed that the torque of the series motor was better for
DC applications -- otherwise why would everyone use them instead of
the shunt motors. However, I did price out a new version of my motor
and found that they are now about $6,000 from GE. So maybe it's just
the price? It must be a pretty tough design if people can get away
with (for a while at least) using aircraft generators for drive
motors, and drastically overvoltaging them, which to me seems sort of
like putting a 6" ADC in a car and jacking the voltage up to 180 volts
to overcome the fact that it really needs an 8" or 9"
FYI, the reason I went through the trouble to find a used shunt motor
was that I need regenerative brakes. Not necessarily for energy
recovery, but just to keep from burning out the mechanical brakes.
Old ICE cars with automatic trannies always smell bad by the time they
get to the bottom of the hill (the first 2 miles from my house drops
1300 feet). Which is interesting with regards to charging -- if I
completely charge, I can't use the regen. Might want a dynamic
braking resistor on there... Coming back up that hill, the torque's
going to be important. I'll probably be crawling up in 1st gear, I
imagine (my ICE truck is often only in 2nd gear doing 25 if I've got
it loaded).
Comments?
Zeke
On 6/4/07, Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
John Wayland wrote:
> So the answer is 'yes', the 300V AC system at an estimated
> 165 ft. lbs. of torque will not match the DC system at
> 300 ft. lbs. of torque, where both motors make about the same hp.
What John is conveniently overlooking here is that it is the torque at
the wheels that is of interest, not at the 'crank'. The AC motor has a
redline about 2x that of the 9" ADC, so it can be geared for 2x the
torque multiplication and still deliver the same top speed. 2x the
torque multiplication means that either system will accelerate the car
similarly since the torque at the wheel will be the same.
Can't argue about the cost differential, but as Victor would observe,
you do get what you pay for (in this case regen, liquid-cooled brushless
motor, and more configurable controller parameters than you can shake a
stick at ;^). The same dollars spend on DC would undoubtedly yield
greater HP with fewer frills.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There's also a company in MA (I think) that is doing flow batteries
for large stationery energy storage for load leveling. 10MWH and up
sizes I think. I'll try to find out their name.
Zeke
On 6/5/07, Kaido Kert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 6/5/07, john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thats an interesting idea. Batteries look expensive until you price a gas
turbine.
> Another market might be co-generation-stabilization and emergency power.
Permitting diesel gensets is getting harder
> with the air pollution agencies, and they are notoriously unreliable due
mostly to improper maintenance and testing.
> Is anyone working on this Jukka?
>
> JF
They are doing this with flywheels, which is a much better stationary
storage unit than batteries ( almost no maintenance, no cycle life
issues, good energy & power density )
See http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/09/california_ener.html for example
similar units ( 25kwh ) can be used as fast charge stations for EVs
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, I've got one car that's been totalled twice (a deer hit once, front
end sheet metal once), I repaired it both times, and still got years more
use out of it. It doesn't take much for the insurance company to call
something totalled, and I bought it back cheap both times. What a body shop
bills an insurance company to repair a crunched car is a heck of a lot
higher than what it costs me to pick up used parts and do it myself. Often
the insurance company will be very cooperative if what they are looking for
out of the deal is a signature on a release form releasing them from future
medical bills blamed on the crash. Their concern is more the liability of a
trumped up injury case than the value of the junker.
When you hear that a friend totalled their car, ask questions quick! A
friend let a nearly new Corvette go cheap once, I'm still kicking myself.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 7:58 AM
Subject: Careful!! Re: Prius project
I didn't catch where he is, but in California it usually means the
vehicle was "totaled" by the insurance company. My 95 grand am was
totaled by the insurance company, they gave me the check and then I
bought it back for $161.00, The salvage value. The title goes to the
insurance company then back to me as salvage without leaving my front
yard. They like to do this, repair costs are comically inflated here.
(dent to left front fender where off duty cop ran into it while it was
parked. 3 estimates from "approved" body shops were within 10$ of each
other at $3900 )
I mention this because someone's EV may end up in a similar situation
since most of us convert/recycle older vehicles.
The first time I went through this I didn't know that I could buy it
back for salvage value and lost a really good car, I wanted it fixed but
the insurance company insisted on totaling.(water damage to motor) I
later found that the shop it got towed to bought it back for salvage
value, fixed it, and resold it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Having towed my share of VW related products with a tow bar.
Going forward with these is just as easy if not easier than towing a trailer.
They seem to follow your line better with a tow bar than a trailer. You still
need to make your turns a little wider but not as wide as a trailer.
AS for backing up with one NO. Don’t do it unless you have to and then only for
very short distances. The wheels in the towed car will try to turn the wrong
way.
Just try to park where you don’t have to back up and avoid those dead end
streets.
On another note it is usually easy enough to unhook the towbar and push the
towee backwards by hand then hook up again.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Willmon
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 10:37 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Car Trailer Rental
I have a question about those. Is a car dynamically stable going backwards.
If you back a car with one of those tow bars, will the front tires steer the
way you move them with the tow vehicle? In other words, when backing does it
steer just like a trailer, or is it difficult?
I've only towed big 30 ft trailers with my 1-ton. Never a car on all 4 wheels
with a tow bar. Tow rope yes, but you can't back with one of those :-O
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 5:39 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Car Trailer Rental
>
>
> How about a tow bar attached to the front of the car? Some of the ones sold
> for towing a car behind an RV fold up and
> can be left attached to the car.
>
> Bill
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
I love it when Roger and I can have a little fun...
Roger Stockton wrote:
What John is conveniently overlooking here is that it is the torque at
the wheels that is of interest, not at the 'crank'. The AC motor has a
redline about 2x that of the 9" ADC, so it can be geared for 2x the
torque multiplication and still deliver the same top speed.
I liked his adverb 'conveniently'! No Roger, I did not 'conveniently'
overlook this. I actually thought about it, but dismissed the reality
and practicality of it.
As a stand-alone, Roger's point on this is partially true. The problem
with Roger's take on this though, is that he has 'conveniently'
overlooked the context of this entire discussion...Guy's BMW conversion.
In this heavy car, to get the same DC torque at the wheels with the
proposed AC system, he's going to have to somehow, find a BMW rear gear
set in the 7:00 ratio range. Roger, do you have a handle on the
whereabouts of these mythical super-low differential gears that will fit
his BMW's rear end? If Guy could find a set (doubtful) they'd surely be
$2000 just for the ring and pinion...more cost, just to justify AC. Keep
in mind, that while Guy is shopping around for these costly gears, he'll
still have to now change his simple, easy, and low cost flooded cell
pack to a more expensive AGM pack with 25-30 BMS regs for each battery,
too.....again, AC makes the cost of Guy's conversion go through the roof.
If we're going to have a meaningful discussion here Roger, please try to
stay focused :-) The focus 'is' Guy's proposed BMW conversion and the
use of his 144v flooded pack. There has been no mention of his desire to
spend $2000 more for specially created rear gears and perhaps as high as
$3000 more over the cost of the 144V flooded pack for 25-30 high quality
AGM batteries and their requisite BMS. Victor has challenged my cost
estimate of an AGM pack, but remember again ...context...Guy said 144V
of T125s, that's a whopping 1500+ lbs. of batteries! Ever priced 1500
lbs. of AGMs 'and' their BMS?
I will agree, that doing the two mods of the higher voltage pack and the
ratio change, the AC system could then match DC's power
performance...gee, and at the bargain price of now at least $10,000
'MORE' over the price of the Z1K -9 inch-flooded cell pack DC system.
Guy, does this sound like a good deal to you? Is this what you had in
mind when you queried about which system to use (AC or DC)?
Again as I've already stated, I'd use AC in White Zombie in a heartbeat,
if it were even remotely affordable at the 350kw+ power levels I'm
operating at...it isn't. If it were, all our problems with chasing away
the fireball monster would be gone...we'd have even better performance
than we presently do, and the regen braking at the far end of the track
slowing down from 100+ mph would sure come in handy!
Otmar, where's that Tri-Zilla HO you promised me ? (OK, I made that
part up, but I 'have' already come up with the name of the Tri-Zilla AC
inverter based on three Zilla Z2Ks....the HO stands for High Output)
Can't argue about the cost differential
Agreed...you can't!
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shawn Lawless wrote:
I would bet that Sunday's event had the largest
turnout ever for NEDRA
Anybody have a count on the number of electric drag racin' vehicles that
showed up?
IIRC, 22 is the current record.
~~~~~~
Roy LeMeur
_________________________________________________________________
Dont miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other great prizes from Microsoft
Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0540003042mrt/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From Seattle P-I -- letters to the editor, I'm attaching an excerpt from a
longer letter. Full text at
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/318436_ltrs5.html)
Peri Hartman
(excerpt)
This fall, King County will host another first -- a national clean vehicle
conference, opening new doors for our region. The conference will showcase
many of the technological advances in low- to zero-emissions vehicles and
alternative fuels. These are just a few of the many exciting and sustainable
possibilities before us, as we begin retooling our future, starting right
here at home.
Ron Sims
King County executive
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #2: Nancy Hazard speaks: Tour de Sol Highlights -- and Where Do We
Go from Here?
In 1989 the American Tour de Sol was a competition between 5 solar powered
cars. And then it grew.
Nancy Hazard, director of the Tour de Sol for many years, will give a
presentation this Saturday evening on the
``Tour de Sol Highlights -- and Where Do We Go from Here?''
This will be part of the Awards ceremony for the 21st Century Automotive
Challenge Competition on
Saturday 9 June 2007
6:00 - 8:00 PM
at the
Fire Training and Banquet Facility
on the campus of
Burlington County Institute of Technology
695 Woodlane Road
Westampton NJ 08060
Nancy Hazard has been working in the field of energy and climate change
solutions for the past thirty years. She is the former director of the
Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA), and the Tour de Sol,
America's green car festival and competition driving toward zero carbon
emissions. Prior to joining NESEA she was self-employed as an educator,
builder, and potter.
During her 18 years at NESEA, with assistance from NESEA staff and hundreds of
volunteers, she built the Tour de Sol from a 5-car event in 1989 to an event of
international significance, whose message reached over 80 million people each
year. She also oversaw and/or ran conferences for professionals, and created
NESEA's education program, which today, through resources, workshops, and
conferences, reaches hundreds of teachers and thousands of students each year.
Her present company, WorldSustain, is committed to promoting climate change
solutions that support environmental security and justice while improving the
economy, and our quality of life. She can be reached at
NHazard at WorldSustain dot net
- - - -
The 2007 TdS Reports are actually about the "21st Century Automotive
Challenge" hosted by the The Eastern Electric Vehicle Club (EEVC).
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2007 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2007
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2007 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the "21st Century Automotive Challenge", see the web page at
http://www.EEVC.info
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am following this discussion but am getting a little confused on a
few points.
If we're going to have a meaningful discussion here Roger, please
try to stay focused :-) The focus 'is' Guy's proposed BMW
conversion and the use of his 144v flooded pack. There has been no
mention of his desire to spend $2000 more for specially created
rear gears and perhaps as high as $3000 more over the cost of the
144V flooded pack for 25-30 high quality AGM batteries and their
requisite BMS. Victor has challenged my cost estimate of an AGM
pack, but remember again ...context...Guy said 144V of T125s,
that's a whopping 1500+ lbs. of batteries! Ever priced 1500 lbs. of
AGMs 'and' their BMS?
Guy said:
"I'm considering a 144 volt DC system (24 T125's), but am wondering
if an AC
system is a better choice. I need a 60mi+ range and would appreciate any
suggestions?"
I think it should be said that, Guy for and AC system you will need
at least a 300v pack of preferably AGM batteries. That would be
between 25 and 27 batteries which could be smaller then the batteries
in a 144v pack. When measuring the amount of total energy there is a
ah and volt tradeoff i.e. more volts less ah and more capacity lower
volts... something like that anyway
All you experts please correct me.
I will agree, that doing the two mods of the higher voltage pack
and the ratio change, the AC system could then match DC's power
performance...gee, and at the bargain price of now at least $10,000
'MORE' over the price of the Z1K -9 inch-flooded cell pack DC
system. Guy, does this sound like a good deal to you? Is this what
you had in mind when you queried about which system to use (AC or DC)?
So you are saying that even with the AC system (whenever you talk
about the AC and compare it to DC are you assuming the AC system is
300v?) he still won't have the amount of torque as his old ICE? When
his 3-phase AC motor is revved up around 9,000rpm's and it is
coupled to the transmission, surely there is going to be some serious
torque at the wheels...?? am I wrong?
Tehben Dean
-Lithium batteries are totally <accent>sweeet!</accent>... but
don't think about them, its bad for your morale-
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVerybody;
Summer is upon us! Time for our monthly meeting at my place in CT. We'll
have the grill going as usual, a few EV's to show up. The Jetta SHOULD be
ready. Doing the new rear springs today, AND all the Other Stuff ya find
when you take an old car apart; new shocks, new brake slave cylinder, shoes
are tired, get THEM, too.
Usual time about 2 pm. Plenty of outlets for EV's! 120 and 240 volt
flavors.
So come on down as the guy sez on TV!!
Seeya?
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a friendly reminder.
This is one of the last chances to sign up for Our big Summer EV-ent.
"Gasless on Greenwood 2007" The Greenwood Av. Hot Rod Show, is one of
the largest in the Pacific NW. Saturday June 23rd.
http://www.greenwoodsummerevents.com/carshow/
I will be filling out our hard-copy entry forms at the meeting for us
all, and John Frost !! Bring the SEVA Treasury Report and Check Book...
Since the Greenwood/Phinney Ridge folks backed their price point BACK to
$35. per car, looks like we (SEVA) will be able to pay for everyone who
wishes to enter an EV or Hybrid, under our SEVA banner. And don't
forget our Annual SEVA Pic-Nic at my place after the Show...
We will have a prominent role to play this year. Other Alt.Fuel folks
are teaming up with us to co-ordinate our Informational Assault on all
the Gear Heads and Gas Burners ...and our displays will be concurrent.
We have all been to many EV car shows this year, were we are
"Preaching to the Quire" i.e. surrounded by Solar Panels and Earth
Friendly folks. This show is where we go IN to the Lions Den... so to
speak. Most of these folks would drive their 454's and their Hemie's if
gas cost $5/a gal. But the Tide is Turning...
There are several other car shows we have been invited to attend this
summer and fall as well:
June 9th, VEVA, Vancouver BC, REV 2007
July 4th Parade in Burien
Aug. 11, EV Awareness Day, Portland OR.
Sep. 8th in Edmonds
Sep 15th in Lacy......
Lots to talk about, not to mention all the New Members with all their
questions and enthusiasm.. And other EV-ents which have taken place over
the last month.
See you all there....
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
a couple of notes:
i suspect that there is more than just one dented fender to the prius.
since insurance 'totals' a vehicle when estimated repair cost (of
course the inflated estimates) is greater than estimated value of the
car - i also had a car totaled for the reason (again, a deer) and
'salvaged' it so i could keep it (i think mine cost me $50 to buy
back. of course i got the $2000 insurance check and i fixed it for
less the $500, so i decided to get a nice paint job with the rest of
the money). that being said, i imagine a 04 prius is not going for
somewhere down near 2-$4000. so i imagine that there was quite a bit
more damage. (maybe he can share with us)
second note - i know here in cali you also only get to 'salvage' one
'vehicle' 3 times. after the third time, if it is considered a total
loss again by insurance, it is a mandatory off the road. thought i
would just throw that out for the common good.
On 6/5/07, Marty Hewes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Yeah, I've got one car that's been totalled twice (a deer hit once, front
end sheet metal once), I repaired it both times, and still got years more
use out of it. It doesn't take much for the insurance company to call
something totalled, and I bought it back cheap both times. What a body shop
bills an insurance company to repair a crunched car is a heck of a lot
higher than what it costs me to pick up used parts and do it myself. Often
the insurance company will be very cooperative if what they are looking for
out of the deal is a signature on a release form releasing them from future
medical bills blamed on the crash. Their concern is more the liability of a
trumped up injury case than the value of the junker.
When you hear that a friend totalled their car, ask questions quick! A
friend let a nearly new Corvette go cheap once, I'm still kicking myself.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 7:58 AM
Subject: Careful!! Re: Prius project
>I didn't catch where he is, but in California it usually means the
> vehicle was "totaled" by the insurance company. My 95 grand am was
> totaled by the insurance company, they gave me the check and then I
> bought it back for $161.00, The salvage value. The title goes to the
> insurance company then back to me as salvage without leaving my front
> yard. They like to do this, repair costs are comically inflated here.
> (dent to left front fender where off duty cop ran into it while it was
> parked. 3 estimates from "approved" body shops were within 10$ of each
> other at $3900 )
>
> I mention this because someone's EV may end up in a similar situation
> since most of us convert/recycle older vehicles.
> The first time I went through this I didn't know that I could buy it
> back for salvage value and lost a really good car, I wanted it fixed but
> the insurance company insisted on totaling.(water damage to motor) I
> later found that the shop it got towed to bought it back for salvage
> value, fixed it, and resold it.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: 95 BMW 525i conversion
I am following this discussion but am getting a little confused on a few
points.
Hi EV erybody;
Seems like this sort of questions pop up alot, of late. Newbees that want
to go right off the Deep End with their FIRST EV. Like buying a bike and
popping for the meanist Street Machine they can buy, and they haven't EVen
gone for the Bike endorsment on their drivers license<g>! Not wanting to
rain on their parade. But as pointed out you better have a darn FAT
checkbook or deep pockets! Maybe a set of training wheels here? A basic
truk or car, 9 inch motor small Zilla, shitload of Golf Cart batteries? Get
a feel for the EV thing? I think of it this way; You are making a Statement
here, by driving an EV. OK so your conversion isn't state of the art, or as
perfect as Wayland's stuff. You are saying "Electric Cars problems arent
technical, but Political. Sheeple SEE you driving right past the gas
station in something you built, or cobbled together yourself. This is a
great satisfaction, at least to me.SOME people may think;" Gees! If Bob
Rice can do a workable ev, I see him out EVery day, why can't General
Murders come up with one?" "That movie he was babbling about, I saw at the
Library, I'll go borrow it?" Wait til he sees the " Donated by Bob Rice and
the New England Electric Auto Assoc." and the E mail address, sticker
inside, the box. You mean you HAVEN'T donated a few copies of WKtEV around?
Bottom line here; Maybe the hy performing car will be along in a few
years. Tesla? White Star, Cunard line<g>!?? That sort of thing? In the
meantime we'll do with our crappy conversions, for now and hope for better
times. But yur conversion doesn't HAVE to be crappy.But compared to an EV-1
or Toyota Rav;. I saw a bunch of nice clean ones at PoDC, last weakend! Just
do something nice and clean, inside and out as you will be doing alota
show-and-tell<g>! EVen around here although everybody around here I'm just
"The Electric Car Guy"
OK down from my battery box(soap) Just thought I'd add a bit to this
thread.
Seeya Sat?
Bob
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 12:14 PM
Subject: New England EAA Chapter Meeting
Hi EVerybody;
Correct it again, this coming SAT! Duh! Missed that on the first post!
Summer is upon us! Time for our monthly meeting at my place in CT.Second
Sat of each month! We'll have the grill going as usual, a few EV's to show
up. The Jetta SHOULD be ready. Doing the new rear springs today, AND all
the Other Stuff ya find when you take an old car apart; new shocks, new
brake slave cylinder, shoes are tired, get THEM, too.
Usual time about 2 pm. Plenty of outlets for EV's! 120 and 240 volt
flavors.
So come on down as the guy sez on TV!!
Seeya?
Bob
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No virus found in this incoming message.
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--- Begin Message ---
I wonder if the air bags had deployed. I've never dealt with that, but I
hear that if a car's air bags have deployed, it is almost always totalled
due to the cost of replacing them. Personally, if the car has belts, and
it's for my own use, I wouldn't bother.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "chad plantenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: Careful!! Re: Prius project
a couple of notes:
i suspect that there is more than just one dented fender to the prius.
since insurance 'totals' a vehicle when estimated repair cost (of
course the inflated estimates) is greater than estimated value of the
car - i also had a car totaled for the reason (again, a deer) and
'salvaged' it so i could keep it (i think mine cost me $50 to buy
back. of course i got the $2000 insurance check and i fixed it for
less the $500, so i decided to get a nice paint job with the rest of
the money). that being said, i imagine a 04 prius is not going for
somewhere down near 2-$4000. so i imagine that there was quite a bit
more damage. (maybe he can share with us)
second note - i know here in cali you also only get to 'salvage' one
'vehicle' 3 times. after the third time, if it is considered a total
loss again by insurance, it is a mandatory off the road. thought i
would just throw that out for the common good.
On 6/5/07, Marty Hewes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Yeah, I've got one car that's been totalled twice (a deer hit once, front
end sheet metal once), I repaired it both times, and still got years more
use out of it. It doesn't take much for the insurance company to call
something totalled, and I bought it back cheap both times. What a body
shop
bills an insurance company to repair a crunched car is a heck of a lot
higher than what it costs me to pick up used parts and do it myself.
Often
the insurance company will be very cooperative if what they are looking
for
out of the deal is a signature on a release form releasing them from
future
medical bills blamed on the crash. Their concern is more the liability
of a
trumped up injury case than the value of the junker.
When you hear that a friend totalled their car, ask questions quick! A
friend let a nearly new Corvette go cheap once, I'm still kicking myself.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 7:58 AM
Subject: Careful!! Re: Prius project
>I didn't catch where he is, but in California it usually means the
> vehicle was "totaled" by the insurance company. My 95 grand am was
> totaled by the insurance company, they gave me the check and then I
> bought it back for $161.00, The salvage value. The title goes to the
> insurance company then back to me as salvage without leaving my front
> yard. They like to do this, repair costs are comically inflated here.
> (dent to left front fender where off duty cop ran into it while it was
> parked. 3 estimates from "approved" body shops were within 10$ of each
> other at $3900 )
>
> I mention this because someone's EV may end up in a similar situation
> since most of us convert/recycle older vehicles.
> The first time I went through this I didn't know that I could buy it
> back for salvage value and lost a really good car, I wanted it fixed
> but
> the insurance company insisted on totaling.(water damage to motor) I
> later found that the shop it got towed to bought it back for salvage
> value, fixed it, and resold it.
>
>
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I really appreciate the information and spirited debate, but let me weigh in
on my perceived Deep End dive. I purchased my BMW because it fit the budget
and it is a car I'd like to drive. Granted it is a little heavier than I
originally was looking for. I just don't know which system will give me the
best range for a vehicle of this weight and what range I should expect.
Based on my limited research, having purchased several recommended books, I
am hoping to get at least 60 miles on a charge. Does this sound reasonable?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Wayland
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 10:34 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: 95 BMW 525i conversion
Hello to All,
I love it when Roger and I can have a little fun...
Roger Stockton wrote:
>What John is conveniently overlooking here is that it is the torque at
>the wheels that is of interest, not at the 'crank'. The AC motor has a
>redline about 2x that of the 9" ADC, so it can be geared for 2x the
>torque multiplication and still deliver the same top speed.
>
I liked his adverb 'conveniently'! No Roger, I did not 'conveniently'
overlook this. I actually thought about it, but dismissed the reality
and practicality of it.
As a stand-alone, Roger's point on this is partially true. The problem
with Roger's take on this though, is that he has 'conveniently'
overlooked the context of this entire discussion...Guy's BMW conversion.
In this heavy car, to get the same DC torque at the wheels with the
proposed AC system, he's going to have to somehow, find a BMW rear gear
set in the 7:00 ratio range. Roger, do you have a handle on the
whereabouts of these mythical super-low differential gears that will fit
his BMW's rear end? If Guy could find a set (doubtful) they'd surely be
$2000 just for the ring and pinion...more cost, just to justify AC. Keep
in mind, that while Guy is shopping around for these costly gears, he'll
still have to now change his simple, easy, and low cost flooded cell
pack to a more expensive AGM pack with 25-30 BMS regs for each battery,
too.....again, AC makes the cost of Guy's conversion go through the roof.
If we're going to have a meaningful discussion here Roger, please try to
stay focused :-) The focus 'is' Guy's proposed BMW conversion and the
use of his 144v flooded pack. There has been no mention of his desire to
spend $2000 more for specially created rear gears and perhaps as high as
$3000 more over the cost of the 144V flooded pack for 25-30 high quality
AGM batteries and their requisite BMS. Victor has challenged my cost
estimate of an AGM pack, but remember again ...context...Guy said 144V
of T125s, that's a whopping 1500+ lbs. of batteries! Ever priced 1500
lbs. of AGMs 'and' their BMS?
I will agree, that doing the two mods of the higher voltage pack and the
ratio change, the AC system could then match DC's power
performance...gee, and at the bargain price of now at least $10,000
'MORE' over the price of the Z1K -9 inch-flooded cell pack DC system.
Guy, does this sound like a good deal to you? Is this what you had in
mind when you queried about which system to use (AC or DC)?
Again as I've already stated, I'd use AC in White Zombie in a heartbeat,
if it were even remotely affordable at the 350kw+ power levels I'm
operating at...it isn't. If it were, all our problems with chasing away
the fireball monster would be gone...we'd have even better performance
than we presently do, and the regen braking at the far end of the track
slowing down from 100+ mph would sure come in handy!
Otmar, where's that Tri-Zilla HO you promised me ? (OK, I made that
part up, but I 'have' already come up with the name of the Tri-Zilla AC
inverter based on three Zilla Z2Ks....the HO stands for High Output)
>Can't argue about the cost differential
>
Agreed...you can't!
See Ya......John Wayland
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Does anyone have the simple formula for how much energy it takes to
accelerate an extra ten pounds to 60 mph ignoring air friction and
drivetrain friction?
Is it just f=mxa ?
I just would like a simple number that says an extra 10 pounds of weight
in your car will cost you x amount in worse power/mileage assuming stop
and go traffic of 2 stop and goes per minute from 0 to 40 mph . At an
acceleration of 0 to 40 in 10 seconds. ( I am thinking those are typical
city driving conditions )
On Tue, 5 Jun 2007 7:11 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Chip,
Regardless of the rain it was still worth the trip to get a shot at the
Power of DC event. I would bet that Sunday's event had the largest
turnout ever for NEDRA. Thanks for all your hard work (and everyone
else's) putting it together. I'm still bummed out that we couldn't run
but if the rain clears in Ohio by tomorrow we will have a sudo PODC at
Thompson Raceway on Wednesday night with all 3 of our vehicles. Darin,
can you make it down from MI? The rain gave us time to eat blue crabs,
drink beer, and discuss new bike designs. Not a good idea. We started
laying out chassis designs for AGNS's new big brother ANGUS on the
brown table paper. Six wheel motors and a smoking steer head triple
tree are part of the plan. A little show to go with the go this time.
Thank for taking a spin on AGNS. That was the highlight of my day as
well! Perhaps we can get together at Mason-Dixon in the fall like we
did a few years ago.
Shawn Lawless
-----Original Message-----
From: Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EV Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 5:33 am
Subject: Power of DC - Sunday's Pool Party (the drag race)
Well, as you know the drag race ended up being a washout. I was hoping
the rain would hold off a few hours and it did for awhile in the
morning but after the gates opened at 11:00 am it started sprinkling.
It stopped for about an hour so the track decided to race. I put off
setting up the Power of DC stuff and concentrated on getting the car
off the trailer and into tech before it started to rain again. I went
around to all the racers in the pits and told them we should all get to
tech ASAP so we could at least get a couple runs in. Since this was a
Test and Tune we were sharing the track with the gassers and the
turnout for them was pretty light, maybe 12 cars at the most. Most
stayed home because of the weather.
Darin was busy hooking up the new spider box he made to the generator.
He did a great job building this work of art. He had a circuit breaker
panel in the middle mounted on a board. On the right side of the panel
were 8 120 volt outlets and on the left side were 2 240 volt outlets
and 4 big cables coming out to attach to the generator. He also had a
tool box filled with several different 240 volt outlets and plugs so we
could adapt to the specific needs of the 240 volt folks. It hooked up
flawlesly. The mid-Atlantic coast now has it's own Spider Box. Before
he left he handed the panel over to me and said "Here you go" Thanks
Darin!!! I tell you the EV community really pulls together.
For those who don't know. We've been shipping "Big Blue", the blue
spider box (distribution panel for the generator) across the country
for the NEDRA events for at least 3 years now. It's been traversing
back and forth to Chicago, Florida, Maryland, and Oregon. John Wayland
had it stowed in his garage so he sent it out to our event so we used
it on Saturday and used Darin's new box on Sunday. But now "Big Blue"
can stay home for awhile now.
Shawn Lawless was there with two trailers. One carrying the OJ dragster
and the AGNuS motorcycle and the other carrying the Nash
Electropolitan. Shawn actually left for Hong Kong this past Wednesday
and arrived home Saturday night. As soon as he got home he went to his
shop to finish putting the vehicles together and loaded everything up
and didn't get home till 3:00 am then they left Ohio for Maryland at
6:30 am for the 5 hour drive to the track. Talk about cutting it
close.
Shawn was anxious to try out all the new mods. He put new batteries in
OJ. The Nash got a new driveshaft to replace the broken one from the
previous week's record attempt. And AGNuS got a new battery pack. Get
this, 36 28-volt Milwaukee V-28 battery packs stacked in three tiers in
the bike's frame. Brings back memories from last year's Monster Garage
episode. Thick copper bus bars attaching all the battery packs
together. A Zilla with a hairball and two permanent magnet motors
directly mounted on either side of a go-kart tire slick. A work of art.
Shawn was going to try for the NEDRA 168 volt Motorcycle record. And
wanted to get back the 96 volt record with the Nash. I believe OJ was
running at 240 volts.
Dave Cover arrived and set up his tent and got his 944 Porsche ready.
I'm hoping he can tell more folks about it. I was really wanting to see
his car drag race since he did so well in the AutoCross.
Larry Jarboe arrived with the Great Mills Green Hornet MR2. The kids
were really anxious to race and telling me all the mods they made to
the car from the previous year.
Darin Gilbert had set up his tent and the Pirahna motorcycle was
sporting a new wheelie bar. The bike looked great. Darin had really
refined this machine. I know he was anxious to try it out at 96 volts.
The West Virginia University team arrived but they left the car in the
trailer since it was still not running. Roy Nutter suspects the motor
could be the problem and the students are still figuring it out. So it
wasn't going to run at all this weekend.
My car. well I haven' done anything to it in a few years. Although it
has an XP-1227, 55s all around and I race it with Optima Red Tops the
Raptor 600 is limiting the speed. So I need to think about an upgrade
at some point. I never did get a chance to fully charge the car after
the AutoCross Saturday because "Big Blue's" 4 120 volt outlets were
taken up most of the day. So my batteries were sitting at 12.36 volts.
Not good. The car had plenty of energy to get through the AutoCross,
but it needed a bit more capacity to make sustained 1/4 mile passes.
Other EVA/DCers were Joe Lado with his Fiero and Mike Harvey who
decided to leave his car on the trailer due to the rain.
Most of our visitors from the previous day were there. Dennis Pestka
had traveled from St Louis and arrived on Sunday. He had brought 36
feet of 4/0 Carol Super Vu-Tron wire to give away.
A reporter from the Washington Post was there. He talked to all the
drivers. But he didn't have a photographer with him. There actually
wasn't much to write about since the event was pretty much going to be
a wash out and I didn't see anything in Monday's Post. Getting our
story bumped isn't unusual anyway. Last year the Washington Post was
going to do an article on the race for their Style section and they did
the interviews but the reporter ran her article on a Woman who owned a
Hummer instead. Arggh!! She told me it was the Editor's decision. It is
a disapointment, but I'm getting used to it. What's really
disappointing is they come to us first. So we get our hopes up. Then
we're bumped.
This happened twice with the Great Mills Team this year. The Discovery
Channel called in February to do a story on our race. They even took me
out to lunch to discuss the project. I suggested they do something on
the Great Mills new car they were planning to build. Everything was
planned until the management shakeup at Discovery and the project was
cancelled a week before filming was to begin. Then later in February a
producer from the History Channel calls. He wanted to do something
similar. So we arrange the same thing again with the Great Mills Team
but before the filming begins the History Channel pulls the project.
The upper management at the History Channel, which includes the owners
son is apparently a big Baja racing enthusiast and electrics just
aren't that exciting to him. Whatever. So after being burned by two
cable networks, the kids at Great Mills decided to document the
conversion themselves. More power to them. Like I mentioned before,
they approach us then pull the rug out at the last minute.
But at least Channel 25 was there the day before so that was cool.
I guess we had had our day in the sun when the Canadian Discovery
Channel show, The Daily Planet filmed the race in 2005. The planets
were all aligned that day.
Anyway back to the race before the flood.
Joe Lado's Fiero was the first to get inspected so I hurridly got my
car up to the inspection line and was the 4th in line behind a couple
Mustangs. As usual, the electrics were a curiosity. The inspector guy
remembered my car from the previous year's races so I quickly got
passed through inspection and went back to the pits to wait for us to
be called. They called us once already but alot of folks were still
setting up.
At that point my daughter was getting bored so my wife Monica took her
to the Outlet Mall in town. My son Jake camped out in the truck playing
video games after being yelled at by the track troll for riding his
scooter in the pits. He's still angry about it.
The track officials called us again so I rushed up to the staging
lanes. Joe was already there. There are 6 staging lanes and the track
lets us line up in the first 2. They let a few gassers go and it was
our turn.
Joe lined up in the left lane and I lined up in the right. This was
Joe's first time drag racing so that was quite a thrill for him. We
took off and that was the only run the electrics made that day.
I went back to charge the car and that is when it started to rain
again. After an hour the track cancelled racing for the day. The track
was too saturated to dry off at this point.
All the gassers packed up and left so it was just us left at track. I
think the track owners even left so we had the whole place to
ourselves.
The rain slowed for a bit so Shawn and Darin decided to do some
burnouts in the pits. OJ's driver go suited up and did some cool
burnouts and short runs in the pits. Darin did a cool burnout with his
Pirahna. Kind of reminded me of the Joliet event that got cancelled in
May 2006. We just relocated to a Pep Boys parking lot and hung out
there and the guys did burnouts in the parking lot.
The highlight of the day for me was when Shawn called me over and asked
if I wanted to try out AGNuS. Now, this was the motorcycle that had
done 106 mph two weeks before and has 4 consecutive NEDRA records and
has a new set of V-28 batteries on board that hasn't even been tested
yet on the track so I was like "Wow!" Being an electric scooter guy I
recognized the throttle on the bike was a Magura which I use all the
time so I that was familiar and Shawn said the bike was solid and
predictable so I suited up and rode the bike around the pits. I opened
it up on one stretch of the pits and the bike felt great. It's really
low to the ground and actually did feel more in control at the higher
speeds. So that was a real treat for me. Then he let me drive the Nash
around the pits. That was cool.
It started to rain harder so we put some of the tents together to make
a larger area for people to congregate under while we held the raffles
and thanked everyone for coming out. Thanks to Jim Husted for building
that beautiful motor we gave away. Joe Lado won it.
As we were just about ready to leave the track, Bryan Murtha, who owns
a RAV-4 EV pulled up. He had hoped to make it for the event but had a
wedding to go to and decided at the last minute to come up after the
wedding. He had just driven the RAV-4 80 miles from Southern Maryland
to the event and needed a quick charge to get back home. So we got him
hooked up. Bob Rice wired up the outlet to the generator and we cranked
it up. Satisfied that the RAV was taking a charge we headed out to our
usual haunt, Ledo's Pizza, to have dinner and dry out. Bob Rice was
there, as well as my family, the Lado family, Dave Davidson, Bryan
Murtha and Big John, one of our EVA/DC members and a train engine
mechanic.
Thanks for everyone coming out. Maybe we'll plan next year's race
before hurricane season. In retrospect, we went 6 years without a rain
delay or cancellation.
We'll get pictures up as soon as we can.
Chip Gribben
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