EV Digest 6845
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Quickest ET ever on lead acid
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: 95 BMW 525i conversion
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Hangin' with the Motor Dog was (RE: Hanging with the Zillaman part2)
long and mostly OT
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Quickest ET ever on lead acid
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: 95 BMW 525i conversion
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Modular Equalization?
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Another new member consulting list on a first time project
by "Deanne Mott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) EV's are less maintenance?
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Power of DC - Intro
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) GM Awards Li-Ion Contracts - SAFT and A123 OUT ???
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: GM Awards Li-Ion Contracts - SAFT and A123 OUT ???
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Thundersky
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: How increased mass affects performance (was: RE: Power of DC -
Sunday's Pool Party (the drag race))
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Car Trailer Rental
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: GM Awards Li-Ion Contracts - SAFT and A123 OUT ???
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Battery Venting
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Saft NiMH and LiIon availability?
by Nick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Contactor Controllers and Prii or is it Priuses
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: How increased mass affects performance
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Anybody tried battery switching from parallel strings to series
strings?
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Energy loss in an EV and range
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Energy loss in an EV and range
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: 95 BMW 525i conversion
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Energy loss in an EV and range
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Motor pics, was: Re: Hangin' with the Motor Dog ...etc
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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This probably goes out to Dennis and Bill but i'm trying to find out
what is the quickest 1/4 mile ET ever run on plain old lead acid
batteries? Not TMF or Inspira but plain old off the shelf bats anyone
could buy. Sort of like the quickest ever on gasoline, alchohol, etc...
I know I saw both Bill and Dennis run high tens/low elevens in Vegas.
OJ ran a 10.80. Can anyone help me out here?
Shawn Lawless
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--- Begin Message ---
No worries, I'm looking for solid advice and if my
60mi range is not realistic for this vehicle, I'll
just have to get something else! I bought this car
for a very good price and can drive it while I
convert another! Sounds like I need to focus on
2500lbs or less for curb weight! I really appreciate
all of the input!
Guy
------- Original Message -------
>From : Paul[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent : 6/5/2007 7:40:36 PM
To : ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: 95 BMW 525i conversion
On Jun 5, 2007, at 7:34 AM, John Wayland wrote:
> As a stand-alone, Roger's point on this is
partially true. The
> problem with Roger's take on this though, is that
he has
> 'conveniently' overlooked the context of this entire
> discussion...Guy's BMW conversion. In this heavy
car, to get the
> same DC torque at the wheels with the proposed AC
system, he's
> going to have to somehow, find a BMW rear gear set
in the 7:00
> ratio range. Roger, do you have a handle on the
whereabouts of
> these mythical super-low differential gears that
will fit his BMW's
> rear end? If Guy could find a set (doubtful) they'd
surely be $2000
> just for the ring and pinion...more cost, just to
justify AC. Keep
> in mind, that while Guy is shopping around for
these costly gears,
> he'll still have to now change his simple, easy,
and low cost
> flooded cell pack to a more expensive AGM pack with
25-30 BMS regs
> for each battery, too.....again, AC makes the cost
of Guy's
> conversion go through the roof.
Yea, but do you expect that 1st gear will be used
with a the proposed
144 volt system and an ADC 9 inch motor? The
suggested zilla setup
(1000 amp motor limit, 500 amp battery limit to keep
GC batteries
alive) would provide maximum torque up to around 63
motor volts. What
rpm is a 9 inch turning at 63 volts and 1000 amps? I
suspect its to
low to make 1st gear useful. With the higher revving
AC system a most
of the needed extra multiplication could be provided
by using 1st.
I'm going to take a WAG at the rpm range the proposed
system would
get full torque out of the 9 inch motor based on the
following:
1. You know the ADC 9 inch, I've never used one - you
say about 300
ft/lb. of torque (previous post in this thread) so I
will use that as
the torque at 1000 amps.
2. At 1000 amps and 63 (motor) volts the motor is
about 80% efficient
- I suspect I'm being generous.
3. The GC batteries will sag to 1.75 vpc at 500 amps
(that is my
experience.)
4. Power in will equal power out minus efficiency losses.
Conclusion: I get 300 ft/lb. of torque (1000 motor
amps) up to about
1200 rpm.
This is a bit of my experience for Guy. GC (golf
cart) batteries do
not add up to "good" performance in any vehicle. Even
with 1/2 the
weight of the converted car in GC batteries you will
have less than 1
horsepower available per 40 lb. of vehicle weight (a
Geo Metro is
better.) With 1/3 of the converted vehicle weight in
GC batteries
performance will be in the range of an old 36 HP
Beetle. (I've owned
2 of them, they are fine but in no way
"performance".) Sorry for
being a downer on this point; I don't want to create
false expectations.
Paul "neon" G.
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--- Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Of course I've hit them all and these guys barely >
even know what a DC motor is. They told me they >
don't see them much and they're
> not worth rebuilding.
Well you cheating motor whore! What happened to "I'm
coming to you first crap you wrote me, LMAO ;P
> So here I am waiting for Jim to call or come by. I
> can't remember if he gave me a batphone number or
> not.
Well now you know why I was feeling like I'd been had.
Who do you think got me to do that? I'll give ya 3
but you need just one guess! Yeah it was Wayland! He
called me a day ot two before the trip, said that I
should shoot you an email saying "hey lets hook up"
and then shine you on 8^o LMAO.
I'd have been to wuss
> to call anyway. So after a couple days I get an
> e-mail. "Dude I'm having so much fun, uh-hem, I
> mean, my Drill Seargent Sister
> has us on the Alaska Boot Camp schedule, and well I
> don't even have time to visit." So I figure he's
> getting the cheechako tour
> of Alaska. I bet he even drove down to visit the
> Portage Glacier, or ate at Gwennies or the Sourdough
> Mining Company. (They all
> serve coffee you know;-) But the one place I'm sure
> he didn't visit was Kaladi Brothers coffee roasting
> facility where Alaska
> roasts their own coffee bean blends. Of course thats
> where we hold our Alaska EVA meetings.
Well actually that's a pretty good take on the trip.
I wasn't in the city but the two days being the day I
got there and the day I left. Although it may not
have been a once in a lifetime trip it was my first
and I wasn't gonna hang by my puter all week waiting
for you to write me back 8^P
> But alas, no
> Jim. Next e-mail I get
> "Dude I made it home, and boy am I beat" and
> something about nine 22 hour days. Whats wrong
> Jimmy boy? Couldn't find enough
> coffee to make it the extra 2 hours each day?
Hey big city mountain man, if fishing till 3AM and
cleaning fish in the dark and getting chased out of
the hole by a bear and then a 1/2 mile walk alone at
night carrying a fish with a now startled bear close
by ain't enough for you, then you are the better man
8^) All true by the way. One day I was 10 feet away
and was what you guys must call the shoo bear guy,
lmao. That's the guy stuck on the end who trys to
look big and screams SHOO BEAR!!! at least a dozen
times. Now you big city mountain guys might be used
to that but us little town boys, well it causes
instant and sever puckering, in fact I haven't had a
hemmeroid since 8^o LMAO!
> I'm
> sure there was still plenty of sunlight the end of
> July ;-P "I couldn't do
> anything *I* wanted, my sister just whipped me all
> around on her own tour" (Jim is Cheryl older than
> you or something?)
Actually she is the middle sibling, but she's like 1/2
antilope, greener than grass, super smart, and always
active, so Darlene and I figuer she was adopted or
something 8^)
> (Cheryl if you're reading I know Jim wanted to do
> all that stuff himself) I can see it all, her
> laying it all out for little
> brother. All righty now little Jimmy, your at my
> place now. None of that EV motor stuff, you gotta
> gut some caribou, split fish,
> pick berries and rhubard to fill my freezer, raft
> the Yukon, wrestle some bears then you'll be lean
> and green enough to stay with
> me. You'll be back a sourghdough next time you stay
> with me little brother!
Actually I believe you need to take a hike with my
sister, it'd be good for ya. If you can outclimb a
mountain goat then you won't be to sore the next day,
as for me I couldn't walk the next day 8^)
Now as far as little brother stuff goes I believe you
picture my family like some fluffy cuddly bunny
family. You really should move it more toward living
in a wolf pack. Hell growing up if you didn't fight
your way into the meal when food was there you went
hungry 8^o If you back talked mom she'd chase you
with a broom and wait at the door if she didn't catch
you,LMAO. Not that that happened much 8^)
>
> So little newbie EV me gets punked by the Motor Dog.
> I knew I shouldn't have wasted 9 days of leave
> waiting up for Jim :-O
Now the really funny thing is why you'd be so into
getting a visit from some crusty old motor guy whos
only talent is being a list troll and being James
Masseys seperated at birth evil twin? Hell at least
Otmar's fun and witty to be around 8^)
> (kidding) At least Wayland let me visit him at his
> place of business (for 20 minutes) while he was up
> here. He even touched my
> truck, woo hoo. (try to sell it on e-bay I will)
> Thats why Jim, I want you to sign my motors when you
> are done with them. You
> ever come up here and don't stop by to drink my
> coffee like you threatened, I'll put those babies
> up on e-bay with an sell them
> to the first $1 bid I get. (OK well, maybe a little
> more than that, but you see where I'm going)
Let me know, hell I might make a bid on them 8^P I'll
buy now for 5 bucks, if you offer that option! Bout
all their worth as I have them scattered throughout
the shop in about as small of pieces as can be done
8^) I ought to climb to the ceiling and take a shop
wide pic and we can all play find Mikes motor pieces,
kinda like the Waldo thing 8^o Hey and we can give it
to the first one to find all the pieces, LMAO
> Sure wish Otmar would come visit me ;-) We have
> more bike trails than Oregon. They're EVen
> interactive. Better be in good shape
> to outrun the moose though. Don't even try to
> outrun the bears on your bike. Better to crawl
> under it and write it off.
Sorry to bum ya here Mike but your the only one not
invited to Otmars open house, LMAO!
As for the bear thing I found standing like you're
scared shitless and holding your ground worked pretty
good 8^
>
> But hey, the coffee pots done brewin', I better get
> back to work on the Pinto so it'll be ready when my
> motors show up from Jim
> ;-P BTW Jim, thanx for the pics of the motors.
> Looks like they're begining their new life with a
> proper Hi-Torque boot camp.
Thanks, all I've done so far is wack off the hair.
Boot camp, HA! They ain't even got thier kakis yet.
> Just don't make fun of they're crusty shafts. I
> can't afford hi-test chromium shanks.
Hey man you really need to get some counciling about
that shaft envy issue or get over it, not EVery man
gets a perfect shaft 8^o
Anyway I don't want to hear anymore crap from you
about how I got worked by my sis last year. I'll tell
ya what, you race her up a mountain of your choice.
If she wins I get your 9's, what do ya say? hell she's
only a 90 lb girl 8^P Yeah didn't think so 8^o
Had fun
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
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Again, I appreciate the advice! I was originally
looking for a 3 series and grabbed the 5 without the
appropriate analysis. Emotional decisions are great!
------- Original Message -------
>From : Jim Waite[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent : 6/5/2007 2:40:16 PM
To : ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: 95 BMW 525i conversion
Hi Guy & All,
---<you wrote>---
I really appreciate the information and spirited
debate, but let me weigh in.... I just don't know
which system will give me the best range for a
vehicle of this weight and what range I should
expect...., I am hoping to get at least 60 miles on a
charge. Does this sound reasonable?
--<snip>--
In short: NO
In a more lenghty answer, I should apologize for not
chiming in earlier, especially since your stated goal
for range was THE very first thing I noticed and I
wanted comment on. Frankly I wanted to stay out of
the way of what I guessed was going to be a lenghthy
(if not lively) discussion from others:-) Even though
The List has gone down the AC versus DC road MANY
times before, it's none-the-less enjoyable to see a
brief udate now & then, especially from those who
walk-thetalk, and for that, I thank you guys (John,
Victor, Roger, Paul, et al, thanks again!).
If I can offer any usable advise (and I beleive my
3-Series conversion, as well as the ~10 other
3-Series B'mers that followed, can serve as
examples), the number of batteries & weight you're
considering to put into a 5-Series will absolutely
result in you're vehicle being an utter
dissappointment at least, and a slow-moving freeway
target at best!
As has already been stated, unless you have a large
EV project bank account & can afford bleeding-edge
battery, you're MUCH better to start with a DC system
(in my humble opinion)and a reasonable number (say 10
or 12) affordable (and newbie-forgivable) flooded
batteries(or if you REALLY want to add some further
challenges to your project, sealed/AGM's) with the
result of a VERY drivable (read: safe & able to get
on & off the freeway) with with decent performance.
If you're really married to that 5-Series, so be
it. But candidly, I think you'd find a 3-Series to
provide many of the same features (power-assist
disc-brakes, usable passenger seating, limited albeit
usable trunk space), but w/o the added performance
deprivation you would suffer from the excessive added
weight which the 5-Series brings.
I hope this helps.
Best regards,
Jim Waite
http://austinev.org/evalbum/021.html
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Hi folks,
The subject of modular charging (one charger per battery) has come up
again and again on the EVDL, but I wanted to ask about it one more
time. My 6 month old Deka 8G31 gels are not doing a good job of
staying in synch, even though my Zivan NG5 has been properly
programmed to match them with the latest pulse-equalization
routine. (No, I am not using regulators or PowerCheq equalizers as
they weren't supposed to be needed.)
I recently installed a PakTrakr battery monitor and have been logging
the data to a laptop. It shows considerable voltage
variation. Capacity wise, the batteries all seem pretty close, but
since they never all end up equally charged, I am very concerned
about they long term survival. After reviewing a number of the
Soneil charger equipped EVs in the EV Album, I decided to look into
buying a set. When I contacted my local battery supplier, he
mentioned they carried another potentially useful charger called the
Battery Doc. There is info on the web about it at:
http://www.batterydoc.com Spec wise, it looks fairly similar to the
Soneils, except the max current is only 2 Amps. My concept is to
retain the existing Zivan NG5 but switch it off when the current has
fallen to about 2 Amps and let the Battery Doc units finish the
job. That way each battery gets just what it needs without over
charging, and the total charge time will not be affected.
My question is, has anyone any experience with these chargers, and
what do you think of the overall concept?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
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> - *all* leaks *will* be found
Sorry to chime in late here - but I will post a resounding Yes vote to
a convertible conversion. I'm driving an '85 Cabriolet and it's loads
of fun here in NC. Mostly my problem is HOT weather but I manage to
deal with it :-) I've had convertibles before, and yes - all
convertibles tops leak including mine, a little bit into the trunk
area and on top of the battery box, but I bought a cheap car cover (no
garage) and I open the trunk whenever it does get wet and it dries
fast. I plan to take it to a top place soon and get it repaired,
perhaps when we get a week in the 100's and I can drive my stinker
truck (with AC) around for a few days.
AFAIK all convertibles are heavier because of extra cross bracing in
the bottom. Mine is a bit sluggish, but I manage to drive it daily on
the interstate without getting run off the road.
The other day, I was out doing errands - it was about 75 degrees, top
down, radio on, and driving past all these gas stations. It doesn't
get any better than that!
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I sure hope so. I -hope- that what I'm experiencing is bad luck combined
with some minor design flaws.
I bought my E-Beetle for $2500 with a dead pack. I paid $1100 for the new
batts. A couple weeks later the charger went schizo on me because rainwater
was seeping in through a vent so I bought a new one for $950 and sealed up
the vent. A month ago, the day before I departed for military duty I was
jinxed by a blown Curtis controller. I had it rebuilt for $500.00. I am NOT
including the couple hundred I spent on new tires because that's not EV
related.
The controller -seemed- to be quite old. The car has been an EV since '92.
There was no heatsink, mounted to it probably because the builder lived in
Alaska. I mounted a nice one on it 2 weeks before it died. What great
timing. I will say though, that Flight Systems in Pennsylvania did a first
class job rebuilding it. I'm back on the road now and hoping that now I'll
get to enjoy that famous easy-maintenance EV life I keep reading about.
Wish me luck,
Rich A.
Maryland
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Hey all
First off sorry to hear about the rain, kind of a
bummer. At least it only affected those stupid
annoying 1/4 mile guys 8^o
Joe Lado gave me a write. Kinda cute asking if it'll
power some hummer sized project LMAO! Being a
hi-Torque 6.7 doesn't make it a Warp 11 now, hehe.
Guess maybe he was thinking he'd just roar in, roll
over "your car" and there'd be no competition next
year hehehe. Kind of a take that Mr. Chip 8^o
Anyway it sounds a bit like the Joliet trip in that
you just got more time to play in the puddles like
when we were kids. Although back then the security
guard would chase us off the premises not stop and
watch for the WZ vs Joule Injected run at the Wallmart
8^o
EVen though it got rained out, I have such fond
memories of Joliet, I really do, Hopefully you all
went home with those same feelings. It's got to be a
bummer to not have EVerything go as planned being you
worked so darn hard to plan it though huh?!
If nothing else you get a little rest now before you
have to start running around like a chicken on a
Rudman load bank again 8^o Okay breaks over, you got
those Wayland invite shirts done yet 8^P
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
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Just over the WIRE:
I was under the impression that SAFT and A123Systems were in the Front
Running for the GM contracts for Li-Ion Batteries... This news seems
to contradict. Any one have any corroborating evidence ??
GM awards advanced development battery contracts
http://www.easier.com/view/News/Motoring/Chevrolet/article-120412.html
And who in the HECK are Compact Power, Inc., based in Troy, Mich., a
subsidiary of Korean battery manufacturer LG Chem. And Frankfurt,
Germany based Continental Automotive Systems, a division of Continental A.G.
Why can't these guys do biz. with US American Companies ??? Like
AltairNano, or A123Systems ??
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
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That report seems different from these:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/06/05/breaking-gm-awards-two-battery-development-contracts-for-chevy/
http://www.gm-volt.com/
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Wasn't that 2000 cycles to %80 DOD
and 3000 cycles to %70 dod.
Rich Rudman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manzanita Micro
360-297-7383,
Cell 360-620-6266
Production shop 360-297-1660
FAX at Metal shop 1-360-297-3311
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: Thundersky
> John wrote -
>
> > So, that's about $86/cell?
> >
>
> That's what I get also.
>
> At the website it says 3C rate, and good for 1000 cycles to 80% DOD.
>
> And you have to add on a BMS for the pack.
>
> Still expensive compared to lead acids.
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
> www.TEVA2.com
> www.Airphibian.com
>
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GWMobile asks:
> Does anyone have the simple formula for how much energy it takes to
> accelerate an extra ten pounds to 60 mph ignoring air friction and
> drivetrain friction?
>
> Is it just f=mxa ?
Ignoring all losses, you can use the kinetic energy formula: E = 1/2 m V^2
Working in the devil's own metric system, rather than with rods to the hogshead
(obscure "The Simpsons" reference), your example works out as:
m = 10 lbs = 4.5 kilograms
V = 60mph = 26.8 metres per second
E = 0.5 * 4.5 * 26.8 * 26.8 =~ 1616 Joules (divide by 3,600 to get =~ 0.45
watt-hours)
So, every extra 10 lbs on your vehicle will take an additional 0.45 watt-hrs of
energy (excluding all losses) to accelerate it from 0 to 60mph, regardless of
the time it takes to get there... assuming no goofs in the math and conversions.
Keep in mind, depending on what you are ultimately trying to calculate, you may
need to adjust this estimate to take into account the losses in the drive-train
and controller, as well as considering the impact of the increased weight on
rolling resistance and on hill-climbing performance and consumption.
Cheers,
Claudio
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Yes, but make sure the tow bar is attached to the frame. I had a
"professional" build a tow bar for my Mazda. I got from MD to just the other
side of Omaha. A trucker radioed I was about to lose my car. I stopped,
touched the bumper, and the whole rig fell off. It seems the bumper brackets
had broken in half.
BTW, if you are looking at several hundred bucks to rent, why not just buy a
trailer? Locally you can get one for around $1200 in good condition... then
sell it again. My friend did this. Granted he had to repack the wheel
bearings and replace a couple tires, but he ended up making $300 on the rig
after expenses. (He got a good buy.) Otherwise check around with one of the
local car hauling companies. I had a rig (about 10 years ago) hauled for
about $1 a mile, down the I-5 corridor.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: Car Trailer Rental
> How about a tow bar attached to the front of the car? Some of the ones
sold for towing a car behind an RV fold up and can be left attached to the
car.
>
> Bill
>
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It says Continental Automotive Systems will provide lithium ion cells provided
by A123 Systems....
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Steven Lough
> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 6:17 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR; Bill Moore
> Subject: GM Awards Li-Ion Contracts - SAFT and A123 OUT ???
>
>
> Just over the WIRE:
>
> I was under the impression that SAFT and A123Systems were in the Front
> Running for the GM contracts for Li-Ion Batteries... This news seems
> to contradict. Any one have any corroborating evidence ??
>
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Hello:
My Zivan charger insists on balancing the pack after _every_ charge. That
causes a lot of acid spray to end up on top of the batteries. I was
wondering, if 'Water Miser' caps or even an a 'pro-fill' watering system
would reduce the spillage? Where does the 'Pro-Fill' system vent the gas?
Ciao
mm./
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Does anyone know if the Saft NiMH (NHE) and LiIon (VLE) electric vehicle
sized batteries listed on their website are actually available?
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Tom Gocze wrote:
Hey Guys,
I am very familiar with rebuildables and have done at least a half
dozen. This one (the Prius) is a little different and will be
interesting.
Yes, it does need airbags ($$) and some tweaking, but I know when to
get help (with the repairs, ;^} that is). It is a little more than a
simple bolt together
but I am going to have fun. BTW, the bags run over $1300, plus new or
rebuilt controller plus seatbelts.
Sorry to start something that is slightly off topic, I will stop it here.
I don't think how to get a good deal and how to fix up a donor car is
off topic. don't apologize.
I would be interested in seeing the prius and I think others would too.
could you perhaps put a few photos on your web?
Dan
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I think what he's looking for is just
E=(1/2)*m*v^2
That's kinetic energy stored in the mass.
Units used take awhile to sort out. Need joules from lbs and mph^2.
I suggest you convert mass and velocity to metric first.
Danny
Myles Twete wrote:
Well, yes, Force=mA.
But Power = F * V .
And for constant accel, V = Accel * t
And Energy = Integral(Power), or Int(F*v) , or
E = sum(F1*V1*dt + F2*V2*dt + ....) = sum(Pt * dt)
Using your example: Say the base mass is 2000# and that you have a 10#
increase in mass.
Force change:
Fo = 2000*accel
Finc = (Mo + Minc)*accel = (2000 + 10) * accel
i.e. for a given acceleration requirement, the force required increases by
Minc*accel.
This also means that your torque requirement increases proportionally, in
this example, by 0.5%.
Power change:
Po = Fo * veloc = 2000 * (accel)^2 * t
Pinc = Finc * veloc = 2010 * (accel)^2 * t
i.e. the power also will increase by 0.5% (10/2000) for accel and time held
constant.
Energy (and range):
Since power requirement for the same acceleration (and time) increased by
0.5%, the energy required similarly increased.
So your range will decrease by the same 0.5% IF all you did was accelerate.
But the fact is that you don't just accelerate. Once you reach a given
speed and you're cruising on the flat, the impact of extra mass is much less
significant and only plays out in increased bearing, wheel and perhaps gear
friction. And so for cruising, the impact of added mass is not as
significant. However, for hills, the added mass plays in again and so for
either hilly or high stop-n-go profiles, mass increase can significantly
impact your range. One extra passenger for example will increase the mass
nearly 10% in this example and can therefore impact range up to probably
half this amount, or 5%.
Is that enough to worry about? You call it.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of GWMobile
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 8:51 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Power of DC - Sunday's Pool Party (the drag race)
Does anyone have the simple formula for how much energy it takes to
accelerate an extra ten pounds to 60 mph ignoring air friction and
drivetrain friction?
Is it just f=mxa ?
I just would like a simple number that says an extra 10 pounds of weight
in your car will cost you x amount in worse power/mileage assuming stop
and go traffic of 2 stop and goes per minute from 0 to 40 mph . At an
acceleration of 0 to 40 in 10 seconds. ( I am thinking those are typical
city driving conditions )
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....
Normally a controller operates in 'continuous conduction mode' which is
to say that the motor current ramps UP during the switch-on time, and
ramps DOWN during the switch-off time. The PWM frequency is chosen to
maintain the ripple current at a reasonable amount. So the pulse widths
being relatively short should be fine. A freewheeling diode maintains
the current through the motor with the MOSFET off.
For motor vs. battery current limiting, you normally would set the
motor current to some maximum (say, 1000 amps so you don't fireball
the thing), and then limit battery current to some value so you
don't cook that end of things. The current setpoint will be set to
the lower of:
a. Motor maximum current
b. Battery maximum current / duty cycle
So if the controller is running a 30% duty cycle and your battery current
limit is 500A, the maximum allowed motor current from the battery current
limitation function will be 500A / 0.300 = 1666 amps. If the motor current
limit is 1000 amps, then the controller will current limit at 1000 amps.
As the speed builds up, the duty cycle will ramp up to maintain the current
at 1000 amps. Once the duty cycle exceeds 50%, the motor current will then
drop off. At a 60% duty cycle, the desired motor current will be 500A /
0.600
= 833 amps. Since this value is lower than the motor current limit of 1000A,
the controller will current limit at 833 amps. You can measure battery and
motor voltage and achieve the same result - depends how the controller
designer
wanted to do it.
Note that the peaks of the current waveform (from the battery) are at 833
amps
but since the current draw is combined with times where there is no current
flowing, then the averaged current will be 500 amps.
At the high end, when the duty cycle is equal to 100%, the motor takes only
what it can from the battery - the controller is not current limiting
any more. At this point, motor back-emf controls current.
The same trick is used in quite a few of the current-controlling circuits
that I get to design.
-Dale
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this might have been covered many times before here but I was talking
energy loss with my (filthy gas car owning :) friend the other day and
we arrived at the conclusion that loss through rolling resistance (and
thus car wieght) was insignificant at highway speeds compared to the
wind resistance. as little as 1 percent.
Assuming this is not entirely wrong, wouldn't this mean that a very
heavy yet small wind profile car could go just as long on a given
battery amount. and that further this high weight could be used for many
more batteries...
in other words that some elongated vehicle with a normal car windprofile
could be loaded up with a lot of lead acid and thus achieve well past
100 mile range?
not only that but benefit further from the lower internal loss of the
battery because the discharge rate is less per battery
that perhaps some sleek estate car could be made to break the 200mile
barrier on lead acid : )
volvo, bmw, audi might have some estates with a nice wind profile
or even just a regular long but narrow sedan since you probably wont
need to stack them so high that you need the estate boot anyway.
it would have to be a 2 seater only then but wouldn't it be an
interesting challenge? : )
it presumably wouldn't be a great dragster but we don't really need drag
racing as much as range.
lead acids are so relatively cheap that it should be doable. and there
are batteries outthere that claim over 50Wh/kg but don't really know if
they are lying or not
Dan
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Dan Frederiksen says:
> we arrived at the conclusion that loss through rolling
> resistance (and thus car wieght) was insignificant at
> highway speeds compared to the wind resistance. as little as 1 percent.
Typically, this isn't true.
Consider what is takes to hand push a very efficient EV on the flat... around
12 lbs of force?
Let's round that off to 50 Newtons. At, say 25 metres per second, that works
out to be 1.25 kW -- which is going to be a significant fraction of the total
steady power required to maintain that speed -- certainly considerably more
than 1% -- and even more so for a streamlined vehicle as you proposed.
Of course, you could try get the rolling resistance even lower, but that would
be difficult while simulatenously increasing the weight of the vehicle with
additional batteries, as you indicated.
Consider too, what happens when the proposed vehicle encounters a hill, or
needs to accelerate.
Cheers,
Claudio
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Guy,
Your range is mainly a function of the amount of Wh stored
on board (weight of the lead in your case). Double the weight =
double Wh and almost double the range (almost - because
heavier vehicle will spend more Wh per mile, but nowhere
near twice as much).
As far as performance, I'll stay away from this debate because
of course my opinion is biased. Go with DC for low voltage pack.
If you'll have chance, visit Cliff Rassweiler in Florida,
have a ride in his Electric Imp and then call me.
If you'll ever get an AC system matching with your car/battery well,
you will never go back to DC, but it's mainly a matter of cost.
There is no doubt AC systems are superior for application than
DC ones, it's just may not worth it or be affordable for
many individuals.
Simple proof: if identical raw power DC and AC systems would
cost the same, everyone in their right mind would choose AC.
So it's only money talk really.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
No worries, I'm looking for solid advice and if my
60mi range is not realistic for this vehicle, I'll
just have to get something else! I bought this car
for a very good price and can drive it while I
convert another! Sounds like I need to focus on
2500lbs or less for curb weight! I really appreciate
all of the input!
Guy
------- Original Message -------
From : Paul[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent : 6/5/2007 7:40:36 PM
To : ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: 95 BMW 525i conversion
On Jun 5, 2007, at 7:34 AM, John Wayland wrote:
As a stand-alone, Roger's point on this is
partially true. The
problem with Roger's take on this though, is that
he has
'conveniently' overlooked the context of this entire
discussion...Guy's BMW conversion. In this heavy
car, to get the
same DC torque at the wheels with the proposed AC
system, he's
going to have to somehow, find a BMW rear gear set
in the 7:00
ratio range. Roger, do you have a handle on the
whereabouts of
these mythical super-low differential gears that
will fit his BMW's
rear end? If Guy could find a set (doubtful) they'd
surely be $2000
just for the ring and pinion...more cost, just to
justify AC. Keep
in mind, that while Guy is shopping around for
these costly gears,
he'll still have to now change his simple, easy,
and low cost
flooded cell pack to a more expensive AGM pack with
25-30 BMS regs
for each battery, too.....again, AC makes the cost
of Guy's
conversion go through the roof.
Yea, but do you expect that 1st gear will be used
with a the proposed
144 volt system and an ADC 9 inch motor? The
suggested zilla setup
(1000 amp motor limit, 500 amp battery limit to keep
GC batteries
alive) would provide maximum torque up to around 63
motor volts. What
rpm is a 9 inch turning at 63 volts and 1000 amps? I
suspect its to
low to make 1st gear useful. With the higher revving
AC system a most
of the needed extra multiplication could be provided
by using 1st.
I'm going to take a WAG at the rpm range the proposed
system would
get full torque out of the 9 inch motor based on the
following:
1. You know the ADC 9 inch, I've never used one - you
say about 300
ft/lb. of torque (previous post in this thread) so I
will use that as
the torque at 1000 amps.
2. At 1000 amps and 63 (motor) volts the motor is
about 80% efficient
- I suspect I'm being generous.
3. The GC batteries will sag to 1.75 vpc at 500 amps
(that is my
experience.)
4. Power in will equal power out minus efficiency losses.
Conclusion: I get 300 ft/lb. of torque (1000 motor
amps) up to about
1200 rpm.
This is a bit of my experience for Guy. GC (golf
cart) batteries do
not add up to "good" performance in any vehicle. Even
with 1/2 the
weight of the converted car in GC batteries you will
have less than 1
horsepower available per 40 lb. of vehicle weight (a
Geo Metro is
better.) With 1/3 of the converted vehicle weight in
GC batteries
performance will be in the range of an old 36 HP
Beetle. (I've owned
2 of them, they are fine but in no way
"performance".) Sorry for
being a downer on this point; I don't want to create
false expectations.
Paul "neon" G.
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Claudio Natoli wrote:
Typically, this isn't true.
give me a rough estimate of the percentage for a sedan at 65mph
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At 05:21 PM 5/06/07 -0700, Jim wrote:
some crusty old motor guy whos
only talent is being a list troll and being James
Masseys seperated at birth evil twin?
G'day Jim, All
The good twin has been busy, motor isn't finished yet, but some pics up at:
http://jcmassey.gallery.netspace.net.au/Electric-vehicle-pics click the
Maritime College album.
This is a sponsorship motor for a student project for the Australian
Maritime College, to go into a long, narrow hull that started as a 1/20th
scale hull model of a high speed ferry.
The motor started life as a 3-terminal, 2-speed, single direction motor,
non-vetilated.
Mods:
* Cleaned up body tube O.D., cut a recess around the brush windows to
locate window covers, two of which to have blower ports.
* DE plate vents cut in.
* Brought out both ends of each field pair of pole windings, allowing 4 in
series, 2+2 or 4 in parallel.
* Bunch of thermocouples (so the students can look at temp rise in
different parts, effectiveness of cooling, etc)
* Two thermocouples onto rotor, with thermocouple rings (rings made of
thermocouple wire) so they can stop the motor during dyno tests and probe
the rings to get the rotor temps.
* Back of comm stepped and the step filled with Devcon Titanium putty as
insulator. A steel clamping ring is planned, to be held in place by a nut
threaded onto the shaft between the comm and the bearing. This is to try
and protect against over-reving if they go over a wave and put air through
the jet.
* Brought out armature connections (yet to be finished)
* Brush gear cross bars (done, but not yet insulated)
* Thermocouples on two brush holders (pockets in place, not yet finished)
* Brush gear adjustment system (new mounting ring, machined the CE plate,
clamps to lock down from the outside, movement ring) (not yet finished)
As always, comments welcome.
Regards
[Technik] James
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