EV Digest 6852
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Still the plasma King, a Siamese8 update
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Thundersky
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) unsubscribe
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: Still the plasma King, a Siamese8 update
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Motor Adapter plate
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Thundersky
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) My thoughts as my EV conversion nears 10k electric miles
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Still the plasma King, a Siamese8 update
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Battery Venting
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Thundersky
by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Modular Equalization?
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Power of DC, BC EV Show, & other misc. Race Stuff
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) NEDRA Featured in July Hemmings Motor News!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: High Speed Electric Winch
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: aluminum wire for EVs?
by "chad plantenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Thudersky Real World Experience
by "Peter Perkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Azure Dynamics to Supply 1,000 Electric Vehicle Systems to Electro
Autos of Mexico for Conversions
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Battery - Fuel Cell Hybrid Idea
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Last choice is Total Loss EV was Careful!! Re: Prius project
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Husted wrote:
> Had a quick minute so lets see if I can splain it a
> bit better 8^)
Sorry Jim, I'm still not getting it. I don't think your explanation is
lacking, I'm just at a disadvantage without the visuals.
> John has the front half locked not just on the sides
> with the mounting flanges but also at the end on the
> CE plate so it's mounted in 3 spots. The rear half is
> mounted by just the side flanges. This leaves about a
> 1/3 of the total length just hanging so to speak.
> What "has" to be happening is the whole housing and
> shaft is osilating in circles as they pound what must
> be close to 800 ftlbs out of the motor now.
I couldn't find a really clear picture of the motor installation on
John's site. It looks as if the motor is supported near the midpoint by
the crossmember and again at the CE of the front motor, which I suppose
is what you are describing.
Assuming there is at least one bearing supporting the shaft between the
two cases, and another at the rear DE, I still don't see how you can
possibly get the rubbing you describe simply from the rear DE wobbling
around.
If you view the motor case as a long tube and pretend the rear DE is
compeletely open, then sure, one can imagine the case/tube drooping
along its length while the shaft remains straight and rubbing would
result, with the worst of it near the rear DE. But, if the rear DE com
housing is there, then if the case/tube droops its going to force the
shaft to bend with it, and clearances between the aramture and housing
near the rear DE will be maintained.
I suppose if this case flex/wagging is going on, then the worst rubbing
might occur nearer the middle bearing end of things, but if it is side
force on the output shaft causing the shaft to flex (possibly in a
different direction from what the wagging case is doing), then the worst
rubbing would occur at the midpoint between the bearings. Of course,
it's probably more complicated than that since the armature stack will
result in that section of 'shaft' being stiffer and perhaps flexing less
than the bits that stick out between the stack and the bearings...
> The rubbing is on all 4 pole shoes and evenly around
> the whole armature body. It starts right where the
> last mount hole is located and gets worse the farther
> you go out toward the drive end. Being that end has a
> huge bearing compared to the much smaller front
> bearing and being all the journals are still tight it
> leaves the fact that the whole motor end is flexing in
> circles
This is what I just can't seem to get. If the bearing and journals are
still tight, then the rubbing shouldn't be getting worse nearer that
rear DE bearing since the shaft and housing are being held more firmly
relative to each other the nearer you get to the bearing.
I'm just thinking of all those single motor installs out there with the
motor supported only by the DE attaching to the adapter plate; what
would be the explanation for these motors not suffering from similarly
severe rubbing if it were really just a matter of the unsupported motor
case wagging around?
I could see something like this maybe happening if a serious sideways
force were exerted on the splined output shaft, causing the shaft to
bow/flex sideway in the opposite direction inside the motor as it
cantilevers through the rear DE bearing. I wonder if the unsupported
rear housing lets the splined output shaft get slightly out of alignment
with the pinion shaft (remember, the output shaft and pinion shaft have
to be perfectly parallel to cancel any vibrations as the u-joints in the
driveshaft transfer torque), and if this then subjects the output shaft
(and pinion shaft?) to some significant fraction of the torque being
transferred through the driveshaft? I suppose tying the rear DE firmly
in position could solve this issue, but might it also be an argument for
supporting the output shaft with a pair of bearings instead of just one?
The only other possibility I could think of is that with 2000A coursing
through the motor at launch, there is actually anough magnetic force
being exerted between the field poles and the armature that either the
case/poles are flexing inwards, or the armature flexes outwards, or
both.
Maybe I'll just have to wait for you to get permission to post pictures
in the Hall of Flame to back up your explaination...
Thanks,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
damon henry wrote:
Besides pricing, proper BMS is high on my list of priorities, and as
much as I hate to admit it, I'm waiting for other people to spend their
money experimenting so I don't lose mine.
Damon,
This is OK, but if everyone would stick to such a policy, nothing ever
will get developed. Luckily, this is not the case only because many
businesses can afford (and willing to pay for) development and
experimentation while others waiting to take advantage of it.
Don't get me wrong, that is expected and perfectly fine, it's how
business works. Only businesses are surviving if they are profitable,
so don't whine if the product developed at someone's expense seem
expensive to you - they must recover their R&D cost so you can keep
taking advantage of it while sleeping well knowing you have contributed
something too.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
unsubscribe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Marty Hewes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> OK, I'm just a dumb newbie,
That's okay, I'm just the bumb motor guy 8^)
> but I can't imagine 1/8
> inch of flex or expansion.
I guess it didn't care that you couldn't imagine it
8^o I guess statements like that are why I'm the evil
twin huh, LMAO!
I've never measured it and it's probably a total of an
1/8th with a 16th airgap all around, but that's still
lots of room.
> Was that the motor that melted it's
> commutator assembly?
It was.
> Was it
> maybe shrapnel passing through the motor? Maybe
> something pulled in by the magnetic fields?
Sorry would you like to try door number 3? LMAO. Not
EVen close to the type of damage foriegn matter does
to the insides. Those produce hard small digs or
wedge between the pole shoes laminations.
Now if the motor just flexd up just the downsided
poles would have hit. If it flexed down then the
upper shoes would have hit and so on. Being all 4
were hit and just about 1/2 the length and that it
starts exactly where the mounting stops there is some
sort of flexing. You have to remember that as it
stands right now there are just 4) 5/16th bolts (via
DE / middle plate, and then the two (one per side) to
the flange so most of that half just hangs.
I'm tempted to let John and Tim strap me to the motors
as he drags like they want but I think strapping the
ass down an easier and less scarry way to go 8^P
More later, gotto jam, no time to EVen proof read.
Cya
Jim
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--- Begin Message ---
Interesting. I Emailed Electro Automotive and asked them if they could make
an Advance 9" look like a Chevy small block, so I could bolt up either a
Chevy automatic trans or a Chevy manual trans. It's probably the same thing
as one of the 90 degree V6's they list on their page. Here's the response:
"Sorry, we don't do any adaptors for automatics."
I just love a quick blow off. Note that this would be the same for either
manual or auto, it just needs to look like a Chevy. Can this be so unusual?
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Poulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Motor Adapter plate
Electro Automotive does a lot of adapter plates. They may already have
the type you need, or, if you need a custom one, they will pay to ship the
transmission to them and back, just to add the pattern to their library,
as long as you end up buying the adapter from them.
They're also active on this list.
Adapter page:
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/adaptors.shtml
Tehben Dean wrote:
What is the normal/best place/way to get/make an adapter plate to mate
the motor to the transmission?
Thanks,
Tehben
-Lithium batteries are totally <accent>sweeet!</accent>... but don't
think about them, its bad for your morale-
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The prices seem reasonable, but the dimensions seem to be a little to
much. Are the smallest batteries (40 Ah) really 190 mmx 116 mmx46mm?
Thats 1.9 x 1.16 meters and 4.6 centimeters tall?
Try 0.19 metres (7 inches) by 0.16 metres (6.3 inches) by 0.046 metres
(1.8 inches), that seems reasonable.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is my 5th EV since 1998, and I have to say the
best so far. It will roll 10k electric miles (not all
by me) within the next few weeks. So, I thought I
would share my impressions, the good, the bad, the
realistic, and the hopeful expectations.
The car:
93 Ford Festiva - converted as new
Now 99xx electric miles.
ADC 9" - original - as installed
Curtis 120 V / 550 A controller
10 x 12 V Combo Deep Cycle / Starting Marine Batteries
Power brake booster
no A/C
no heat
manual everything
Individual chargers on each battery - Smart Charger
6/12 V / 2/4/6 A
The good:
- This car rides very well. It accelerates with
traffic. It is responsive and handles very well (now
that I lightened it up by taking out the back seat and
only using 10 batteries).
- It meets my daily driving needs - 8 miles total /
day and it is fully charged (just barely finishes
though) by the time I need it the next morning.
- It was relatively easy and inexpensive to convert
and costs nearly nothing to recharge and drive each
day.
- It gets an estimated 180 - 200 Wh / mile at 30 - 40
MPH pretty flat, some stop and go.
- I was dead on right with those individiual chargers.
My charging system only cost me $125 and it works
great (that's e-bay for you). My batteries all get
charged fully. None get overcharged. They are
treated well, and it has a maintainer mode, so I can
leave it plugged in all the time when I am not using
it, which I do. Just plug and let it sit. It could
sit on the chargers for weeks and be perfectly fine.
The bad:
- My batteries are terrible. Yep. You all warned me
not to get them, and you were right. They are
starting to lose capacity already after only 500
miles. All I can say is that they have a 1 year
warranty, and I will be cashing in on a new set in a
few months. I'll be lucky if the first set lasts 6
months total. I figured with my light use and only 8
miles per day I could get away with them. I was
wrong. No way, those batteries simply are no good for
this application, unless you only want to do 1/4" mile
runs at the track.
- The car has a very limited range. Even with the
original Trojan T-875's, the maximum usable range was
maybe 20 miles (13 x 8 V system) and it handled like a
brick. And, if you wanted to get any life out of them
at all, I wouldn't take it over 15 miles on a regular
basis. For the cost of those things, and a 15 mile
range, I say no way. So, batteries still are the weak
link. No matter what anyone says, I still agree that
there is no good battery solution available to the
hobbiest converter. People swear by Optimas. I've
done the math, they really aren't that great when you
consider the Rav4 EV pack and the fact that people can
actually get more than 100k miles out of a decent real
battery pack (of course only available to major auto
makers ...) I should have bought a Rav4 when they had
40k miles on them and only cost $35k. That would have
been a much much better EV and overall investment than
any conversion. This is true if you do the math on
all the batteries you will have to buy to get up to
100k miles. Then there are those who want to string
together small NiMH or Li Ion cells. Been there, Done
that, got the T shirt and everthing. There are so
many failure points and the system is so complicated
with management for each and every individual cell. I
actually built strings of NiMH and tested them in my
car, and did the same with Li Ion. Well you get the
idea. It was a disaster waiting to happen. Even if
someone gave me 5000 brand new small cells I'd be hard
pressed to justify building them into an EV pack.
Maybe something that a company like Valance wants to
do or other EV battery manufacturer, but not something
that the hobbiest should attempt.
Chargers. If your charger is 6 A, don't expect it to
put out 6 A. That is just the initial charge for a
few minutes. It tapers, and fast. My 6 A chargers
take all night to recharge about 1600 Watt Hours.
That's 10 of the 6 A smart chargers (1 per battery)
running all night and it is just barely enough to get
my 8 miles per day (at 180 - 200 WH / mile). So,
don't believe that charger rating. If you need 8
miles, the 6 A is fine. 15 miles, better go with 12
A. More than that, 20 - 25 A for sure.
What am I hopeful of. I hope that someday someone
will sell us some decent batteries. If they are rated
12 V / 100 AH, I expect to be able to get 1200 Watt -
hr out of them. I don't expect to later find out that
at EV drain rate, they are good for 20 Ah or less and
have a cycle life of 50 - 100 cycles. Nor do I expect
to find out that if you actually use them to 80 - 90 %
DOD, you only get 6 months use out of them. Real EV
batteries can't have those limitations. If your
battery does that (like mine) cross out that 80 AH and
write 15 AH on them. That's what they are actually
good for. Who will make this battery? Don't know.
But, I expect it will be soon.
Also, I am very hopeful that someone will market a
real PHEV - not some converted Prius that can do 34
MPH in EV mode for 10 miles. That's a great start and
proof of concept, but not at all what I am looking
for. For me, it has to do highway speed 65 MPH + and
do at least 20 miles all in EV mode and have the same
performance as the current car as-is. For that car at
an affordable price, I'd ditch my EV in a heartbeat.
The thing is with the limited range, you have to have
2 cars. That is 8 tires, 8 sets of brakes, 2
registrations, 2 insurance bills ... Financially, it
doesn't make sense (I've done the math on that as
well), even if gas is $5/gal. But, I don't do it for
the money. I do it to prove a point, show that it can
be done, and push the manufactures for a real electric
car or PHEV.
I'm committed to EV's. After all, I did buy 5 of
them. And, I drive one every day. Don't get me
wrong. But, I am still hopeful that something much
better than my old conversion will come along in a few
years.
Still rolling with electrons in Atlanta,
Steve
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yup seen it happen in an industrial equipment with bad
hold down. The hot motor is a bit soft and when it
gets wagged like a tail the the internals are thrown
out of kilter. I'm not a motor man by any means but I
have inspected the results from an equipment failure
mode.
--- Marty Hewes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> OK, I'm just a dumb newbie, but I can't imagine 1/8
> inch of flex or
> expansion. Was that the motor that melted it's
> commutator assembly? Was it
> maybe shrapnel passing through the motor? Maybe
> something pulled in by the
> magnetic fields?
>
> Marty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 5:45 PM
> Subject: Re: Still the plasma King, a Siamese8
> update
>
>
> Front sides awesome, almost unused, lol. The gap's
> about an 1/8th an inch so I'm talking a good wag 8^P
> Once you see the pics you'll see better what I'm
> talking about and that it has to be the cause as
> nothing else would cause the rubbing in the areas
> it's
> hitting. Not EVen hitting the whole length of the
> shoe or arm body, just past the last mounting point.
> Cya
> Jim
> --- Marty Hewes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > How tight are the clearances in there? I don't
> > suppose the armature gets
> > hot and expands enough to hit the poll pieces?
> Does
> > the armature get
> > significantly hotter than the outer tube (causing
> it
> > to expand more)?
> >
> > Marty
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 5:23 PM
> > Subject: RE: Still the plasma King, a Siamese8
> > update
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Jim Husted wrote:
> > >
> > > > Flashing forward a bit I was able to pull the
> > > motor
> > > > apart and low and behold are massive rub marks
> > on
> > > the
> > > > rear output side 8^o What's been happening is
> > the
> > > > rear end of the motor has been waggling around
> > in
> > > > circles like a dog sniffing an ass crack as it
> > > pumped
> > > > out what must be getting close to 800 ft.lbs.
> > The
> > > > front side being mounted at the end is in
> > awesome
> > > > shape.
> > >
> > > Could you explain this a bit more when you have
> a
> > > chance?
> >
> >
> > Hey Rodger, all
> >
> > Had a quick minute so lets see if I can splain it
> a
> > bit better 8^)
> >
> > John has the front half locked not just on the
> sides
> > with the mounting flanges but also at the end on
> the
> > CE plate so it's mounted in 3 spots. The rear
> half
> > is
> > mounted by just the side flanges. This leaves
> about
> > a
> > 1/3 of the total length just hanging so to speak.
> > What "has" to be happening is the whole housing
> and
> > shaft is osilating in circles as they pound what
> > must
> > be close to 800 ftlbs out of the motor now.
> >
> > The rubbing is on all 4 pole shoes and evenly
> around
> > the whole armature body. It starts right where
> the
> > last mount hole is located and gets worse the
> > farther
> > you go out toward the drive end. Being that end
> has
> > a
> > huge bearing compared to the much smaller front
> > bearing and being all the journals are still tight
> > it
> > leaves the fact that the whole motor end is
> flexing
> > in
> > circles and is what Tim felt and thought the shaft
> > had
> > spun. I had seen a hint after the Woodburn
> > flashover
> > and was very dilegent in informing both John and
> > Tim,
> > but as you know I'm just the stupid motor guy 8^)
> > Anyway if they tie that ass end down and keep it
> > from
> > flexing he should get that tenth of a second he's
> > wanting almost free of charge so to speak.
> >
> > I saw a rub on one of Bills motors also so I
> believe
> > there is more side thrust than most would think is
> > happening. Anyway I'll get pics up as soon as I
> can
> > get a minute (takes me a while to upload and add
> > subtitles 8^) Hopefully this adds some info that
> > makes sense. Like I stated before if we were to
> > film
> > this as it raced you'd see it wagging it's tail
> like
> > a
> > dog sniffing an ass crack 8^o or a happy EV motor
> > looking forward to kicking some gas ass 8^)
> >
> > Furthermore as for John goes (I can't be sure but)
> > I'd
> > be willing to bet that EVerytime it's had a
> > flashover
> > he's probably hit the shoes causing extra friction
> > and
> > heat and at least partially causing that half to
> > flashover. The only time the front has flashed is
> > when old Bobble head tried his hand at field
> > weakening, LMAO! Anyway John swears he'll tie
> it's
> > ass down... we'll see 8^o
> >
> > On a fun note the shaft is true as an arrow still
> so
> > I'm EVen more impressed with Dutchmans shaft being
> > it's been wagging for 2 years now 8^)
> >
> > On a fun note John and I were debating something
> > before his trip over yesterday (well actually I
> was
> > trying to tell John how it was, hehe) At one
> point
> > I
> > said "John I'm possitive about this!" He says
> "Well
> > I've been doing this for 20 years!" Finally I
> said
> > I'll bet you 10 bucks, no make that a hundred 8^)
> > He
> > said I'll bet a thousand! I said I'm all in I'll
> > put
> > up my Datsun 1200 against yours BITCH 8^o To bad
> we
> > didn't shake on it or I'd be the WZ's owner 8^(
> > Damn!
> > Maybe he'll listen to me more hehehe! I won't
> hold
> > my
> > breath though 8^)
> > Had fun but I got to go before Hump yells at me
> > again!
> > 8^P
> >
> > Hope this helps
> > Cya
> > Jim Husted
> > Hi-Torque Electric
> > >
> > > I'm not really clear how it is possible for this
> > > sort of rubbing to
> > > occur if the shaft is held by a bearing at each
> > end
> > > of the housing.
> > > That is, how does the shaft wiggle enough to rub
> > > unless the bearing is
> > > shot?
> > >
> > > The only thing I can come up with is if enough
> > > sideways force were
>
=== message truncated ===
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Michaela,
The Zivan doing a finishing stage each time it charges is part
of its charger design. According to
http://www.usbattery.com/pages/usbspecs.htm
Lead acid batteries should be brought up to full charge at the
earliest opportunity. Avoid continuously operating batteries in a
partially charged condition. This will shorten their life and
reduce their capacity.
My Zivan charger experience is with K2, NG3, and NG5 models.
Their finishing charge stage are not at a high enough current
level to cause a large enough amount of acid spray to be
concerned about.
Generally a Zivan's final (aka balancing) charge stage is
about 4 amps for about 4 hours.
Any minor amount of acid spray that vented from the caps is
easily neutralized when during my monthly pack maintenance, I
clean the tops of my pack before and after watering the cells.
I use a Windex type glass cleaner and paper towels with the
caps on.
You might be looking for a solution to the symptom rather than
resolving the cause. I fear your Zivan charger is not set
correctly.
See http://www.zapiinc.com/curves.html
for Zivan charge curves. It might be the T3 stage of your Zivan
charger has its I2 current at too high a setting for your pack.
Please consider using a current meter to measure the final
stage charge current level and at what surface voltage is.
Also, look at the cells with the cap off. If it is bubbling
rapidly, that is wrong. If small bubbles are occasionally
coming up, that is normal.
Good Luck.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
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. EV List Editor & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
: MEPIS Linux & WiFi powered :
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--- Begin Message ---
On 08/06/2007, at 4:59 AM, George Swartz wrote:
Steve and Daniel, yes the prices I was quoted are considerably
less and as
follows:
LFP160AHA $255 160ah at 3.2v 5600grams per cell
LFP200AHA $320 200ah at 3.2v 7600grams per cell\
LFP400AHA $640 400ah at 3.2v 13.6kg
40 cells of the LFP400 would weigh approx 1200lb and would provide
144 mile
range and cost about $25,600. Prices are not bad if you are
looking at
powering a small bike.
Don't forget the different Peukerts of lithium batteries - and they
are rated at 1C not C20 like lead. (i.e in an EV encironment you'll
get almost 60% more range from equivalent nameplate capacity batteries!)
Plus (supposedly) you should get 4x the cycle life with LFPs compared
to lead.. time will tell here.
On 08/06/2007, at 3:57 AM, Kaido Kert wrote:
On 6/7/07, damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I expect all my EV's will be lithium some day, just not yet
Thundersky aint the only large-format cell supplier from asia. try
LFPs from www.phet.com.tw for instance, there are others.
Interesting, haven't heard of PHET, I might have to get in touch with
them. So far TS are the only (affordable) manufacturer I've come
across who'll rate their LFPs up to <= 10C discharge. Liteway.cn is
another one who seem pretty good, but only rate to 3C.
If only AltairNano's cells were (a) several times cheaper (b)
actually available to the public! 100C discharge and 50C charge, oh
yeah.. :)
-Ian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark wrote:
Are some of the gels upright, while others are on
their sides? If so, the capacity of the one's on their
sides would likely be about 10% less then the upright
ones according to the Deka/East Penn tech manual.
Yes, four flat, nine on end. Since I discharge very shallow, seldom
using more than about 20-25%, the reduced capacity is probably a non-issue.
One thought was to check the Paktrakr indicated
voltages with a handheld voltmeter to verify the
Paktrakr's accuracy if you haven't already done so.
Yes, it is a little of, and the resolution isn't as high as I would
like, but it is a pretty good guide. On the other hand, either my
Auburn controller and 8" motor in the Civic is very big on creating
electrical noise, or the Paktrakr is very sensitive to it. The data
going to the laptop is great what stationary or charging, but under
power it is pretty useless. All kinds of spurious readings. Anyone
have any ideas on filtering it out a bit?
If the Batterydoc chargers meet the gel batts charging
requirements, then they might be worth a try. The
gel's charging voltage limits are lower then AGMs.
The BatteryDocs are rated 13.75 Volts output, so it doesn't look like
overcharging should be an issue.
Unmodified, Soneil chargers would likely overcharge
the gels. It might be worth a call to Soneil to
inquire whether they'd be willing and able to sell you
a set of chargers that were adjusted to properly
charge the gels.
I picked up one BatteryDoc for testing. After 24 hours on a fully
charged battery the voltage was steady at about 13.67 according to my
DMM. I am gogin to do more extensive testing this weekend, I want to
capture the actual charge curve. I assume using a smaller 17 AH
battery will still get me accurate results without taking all the
time a 100 AH unit would require. FWIW, the BatteryDoc looks
extremely well made. The Kill-a-Watt meter reported it pulling only
.07 Amps while floating the test battery.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
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Hello to All,
Man...sorry to hear that the drag race portion of the BIG two day Power
of DC EVent was a wash-out! Been there, done that!
From Chip Gribben:
>We had an uninvited guest show up for the Power of DC this past
weekend...Tropical Storm Barry decided to drop in on Sunday...the
>deluge hit and washed out the drag race event...canceled due to the
wrath of Mother Nature. Kind of reminded me of the Joliet event >that
got canceled in May 2006...Yea, the anti-EV Vortex has reared it's ugly
ahead again...Maybe we'll plan next year's race before >hurricane season.
I feel bad for all those who traveled so far only to not be able to
race. The l-o-n-g trek cross-country from the left coast in Oregon
across the Rockies, through the great plains states and into Illinois
(repeat backwards), all the while being stuck in a tight truck cab with
two insane people...all this to arrive at what I deemed the 'Anti-EV
Vortex'...and to have the race canceled...is still making me tired.
Roger Stockton wrote:
John, it is always a pleasure! There isn't any chance that you will be
in Vancouver (BC) this weekend (VEVA EV show) to continue it in person,
is there? You've got a place to stay if you need it.
Thanks, but unfortunately, not this year :-( There's just too much
going on down here.
June-through August will be non-stop for us. Besides, White Zombie's
motor is still in pieces and the blue car is still not yet fully running
as well...transition time here at the Wayland EV Juice Bar. In the next
couple of weeks, I've got a PBS TV special I'm involved with, the
rebuilding of White Zombie in preparation for June 22nd drag races, I'm
still working with the LA TV show guys, and the BIG news...the Wall
Street Journal coming to capture those races. In July, we have the
Wayland Invitational III and our chance to try a 175 lb. lithium pack in
the car....Yeah! A sub-1900 lb. car with ~ 300 hp on tap sounds like
fun! Bill tells me the Discovery Channel will be here to catch the
excitement of his Bike possibly breaking into the 7s. Hmmmm, maybe
they'll turn a camera or two around to get a little Tim Brehm/White
Zombie action as well?
Mods to the Siamese 8 are coming along nicely. The big change is my
decision to go from 10 degrees advance to 15 degrees for more top end hp
and much greater arc-fighting capability. A new rear motor cross-bracing
aluminum mount is planned to help securely keep the motor's output end
from 'wagging'. With a more advanced timing on the motor sections, we'll
probably loose a bit of off-line power, but we've got an abundance of
that as it is :-) I predict the timing advance alone will be good for 3
more mph through the traps, and an 11.8-11.9 @110 mph without turning up
the pack past the 1000 battery amps that we ran at in March, when the
car ran a couple of 12.1 ETs at near 107 mph. Once an 11-anything is in
the bag, the battery amps will get tweaked up to 1200 amps and we'll see
what happens :-)
Of course, bigger changes are in store for July's Wayland Invitational
III. Barring any motor problems to deal with after the June 22nd runs,
the car gets torn down again in preparation for the loaner lithium pack.
The mighty Genesis pack will be lovingly removed and mounts created in
the sunken trunk floor battery well, to accept Bill's 'spare' A123
pack....must be tough to only have one spare lithium pack! The steel
case Ford 9 inch diff. comes out, as do the 4:11 gears, to be replaced
with the Strange Engineering aluminum diff. fitted with new 3:70 gears.
While the diff. is being set up, the heavy drum brakes in back get
removed and the super light weight twin piston caliper Wilwood racing
discs go in. Custom quick-mount...quick-dismount wheelie bars are
planned to be installed as well. With a whopping 700 lbs. less weight to
get moving off line, the motor digging in against taller rear gears,
1400 full battery amps, and with no battery weight ahead of the rear
axle (where most of the pack weight is normally placed), if the drag
radials can stick (???), in a now ~1870 lb. car the normal 4-6 inch
lofting of the front tires would be replaced by an out of control wheel
stand that 'could' be dangerous...wheelie bars mandatory per Plasma Boy!!
Gotta get all the above accomplished before Mean Mikey and his badass
Pinto arrive on the scene. Now 'that's' going to be one hell of an
electric drag car! Even though his car starts off heavier than mine,
with twin 9s and the way he pays attention to the details, White Zombie
could be relegated to merely being the world's second quickest electric
door slammer!
Roger, say hello to everyone for me up north, and thanks for the
invite...the BC EVent has always been my favorite EV show show, though
the Gasless on Greenwood SEVA thing is way cool, too. Maybe we can
return to Canada next year?
See Ya...John
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Hello to All,
So I'm at work, in my forklift wrench mode, and walking past an army of
heavy lifting equipment, when one of the warehouseman guys says to me,
"Hey, nice write-up on you guys in Hemmings!" I of course, know nothing
about what he's talking about, so it comes at me out of left field. The
next day, he brings in his July copy of the 3/4 inch thick 'bible' to
all gearheads and lovers of collectible cars, and there in living color
(a big detailed screen capture of the NEDRA home page takes up a good
portion of the page) is a wonderfully written full page story by Mike
McNessor, all about the NEDRA web site and electric drag racers entitled
'Fast As Lightning', with the sub-title caption 'National Electric Drag
Racing Association's site deserves a plug'
It's surprisingly upbeat and accurate in the details, with well-deserved
Kudos to Chip Gribben (though he's not mentioned in name) for the site
being 'nicely constructed with professional-looking graphics and logical
navigation'. They were jazzed about Killacycle's 8.16 ET, as well as
Current Eliminator IV's 8.8 ET. They take the time to info everyone,
'they prefer to be known as ampheads instead of gearheads'. Their only
gripe was the 'just two' photos of racing machines currently listed
under the photo gallery...they're hungry for more!
They gave the NEDRA web site a four star rating, and the four red stars
look impressive even if I don't know how many stars one can earn :-)
Word is getting out!
See Ya.....John Wayland
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What about these types of motors on eBay?
250125996676
I've got a similar motor that's 600 watts on my bike. I believe you can drive
these with 36V too for more power. Built in controller!
----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2007 8:13:35 PM
Subject: High Speed Electric Winch
Well, you know 9hp does the job.
In general 3 electric HP does as much as 5 gas HP. (some say 3:1
ratio, but I assume you are running that ICE Wide Open?)
or 1hp = 746Watts
9hp = 6.714kw @144V = 46Amps.
Wow, This seems very do-able.
Now the tricky part, 8 hours of operation. If it really pulled 46Amps
@144V for 8 hours that is 53Kwh. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Maybe we say you only run 25% duty? gotta pull the cable out and we come
in a lot faster than go out.
Now the amps,ah's and benefit of having the weight anyway says lead
acid floddies. (24 6V golfcart 100Ah batteries. )
Jim Husted can probably chime in here on the best motor. 6"???
What do you guys think, This to me sounds like an application that
should avoid a series wound motor. The load can very and the inertia is
low and we don't want to rip the guys arm off or overspeed the motor
when airborn. This should probably be a shunt wound or compound wound motor.
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one of the reasons aluminum has fallen out of disuse in the
construction industry (aside from the larger guages) was bending
fatigue. someone may have some better knowledge - but in a vehicle
with constant road vibrations - i would think that aluminum would be
expected to have a shorter servicable life (possibly premature
failure?).
chad
On 6/7/07, Marcin Ciosek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Sure, you can use aluminum but to compensate lower conductivity you need to
increase wire thickness. I use factor of 1.4 to for replacing copper with
aluminum. If you use to thin wire you will loose some of energy on heat.
Marcin
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It's been a while since I posted an update on the older TS 200ah cells, but
with the recent discussion on the list, here is what my real world EV
experience over 20,000 miles tells me.
1) I bought 30x200ah TS cells in August 2003 (Nearly four years ago)
2) I use them in my pure EV van at www.solarvan.co.uk
3) Initially I used all 30 cells in a 108v DC drive setup.
4) 2 years ago I changed to a 28 cell 96v AC regen drive. (I have two spare
cells now)
5) The cells have worked absolutely fine over this time.
6) They are rugged and easy to link together (unlike Kokam), and do not
require a complicated BMS. I use Cedric Lynch's simple cell protectors, and
a Zivan NG3 IUa charger.
http://agnimotors.com/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27&Item
id=39
7) They do not burst into flame or explode at the drop of a hat, a switch
fault a while ago meant my cell protectors became disconnected during a
charge cycle, the zivan charger just completed it's normal cycle and
switched itself off with no harm done. (It was adjusted initially to provide
about the right pack end voltage though)
8) They are ageing of course, and this manifests itself as higher internal
resistance rather than reduced capacity. This means it is more difficult to
charge or discharge them quickly, as the voltage rises too high or drops too
low at high currents, and they heat up more quickly.
9) They do not like cold weather, and need to be at a minimum 20C+ to work
effectively now. 25C-35C is better. (I keep them in a heated insulated box)
10) The voltage sag under load is increasing as they age, especially at low
temp. A fully charged cell at 20C will still supply 300A+ but the voltage
will drop from 4.2v to <2.5v under load. I try to keep to <200A max
discharge current. When warm at 30C+ voltage sag is much less.
11) When regen is operating, partly charged cells will still accept charge
currents of upto 100A, so long as the cell temp is at least 25C.
12) The limiting factor in their life in my vehicle will be the internal
resistance build up to the point they cannot deliver the currents required
without damage/overheating. I estimate at the current resistance increase
rate they may last another 3 years in my EV application. This gives me a
useful life of 7 years. Range is not my limiting factor as my work commute
is 26 miles a day total.
13) They may well still be ok as a standby power pack, or ev charge dump
pack when EV life is over. I certainly won't be skiping them anytime soon.
14) Would I buy them again? Yes, and I would never go back to lead again.
Once you have been spoilt by Li-Ion range/capacity you just can't put up
with anything less.
In conclusion I would buy TS cells again tommorrow, I recommend 200ah cells
as the mimimum size for most systems, the newer TS 200ah cells are 1.5x
heavier than the ones I bought, and I understand have lower internal
resistance, and can deliver higher currents. Technology marches on, and I
expect their performance will continue to improve. You could wait forever
for the EV battery holy grail, and be dead before it arrives, I and the
other early adopters of these TS cells took a big gamble. For me it paid off
and I have been very happy with them. Good luck.
Peter
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.11/838 - Release Date: 6/7/2007
2:21 PM
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On 7 Jun 2007 at 12:36, Jeff Major wrote:
> I never heard of Azure messing with any DC motor.
In their early days, Solectria built a few cars with brushless DC motors
coupled to the factory Geo Metro transmission.
(I'm tempted to say something like "s/brush/gut/p")
The pricing for this AC outfit sounds attractive enough, though I don't have
a clue what the individual components are. I suppose anyone could get the
same price if he were to order a thousand of them.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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It's not efficient, there's no reason to deliberately increase hydrogen
production. You will lose a huge amount of energy in the cycle.
Since fuel cells are expensive, generating power from H2 is expensive.
Giving the right amount of water back to each cell is a trick. In fact,
I mean if you had a really practical way to automatically refill each
cell from a volume of water, then who cares if it's the water that came
out of the fuel cell? That would be hella useful for people running
flooded plate or flooded NiCd who otherwise have to manually water over
100 cells individually on a regular schedule.
As one of the central problems with fuel cell vehicles, H2 is not very
dense to store. At standard pressure, like just a gas bag, there's
nowhere near enough volume in the entire vehicle to make a useful
range. Compressing it in a high pressure tank takes quite a bit of
energy, and even still, the volume of say a standard SCUBA tank at over
2000 psi is around 80 cu ft of gas, and that's less than 1/2 lb of
hydrogen fuel. The energy density's not that great and 1/2 lb of H2
ain't gonna get you far.
BTW, there is a funny product called "Hydrocaps" if I recall correctly.
One separate one stuck in place of the cap on each cell. The have a
catalyst (I think a bit of fine platinum wool) and recombine the
generated hydrogen and oxygen. They can get hot too since it's burning it.
Danny
Mark Freidberg wrote:
Check out my idea:
1. Manufacture battery to *maximize* generation of
Hydrogen when cycling, instead of maximizing
recombination as SLAs do.
2. Route the Hydrogen to the fuel cell side of the
device, which then generates more power.
3. Route waste water from fuel cell back into battery.
4. Charge battery with any excess electrical output
from fuel cell (like when's there's no other
application demand on fuel cell). Of course also
charge battery from wall as needed.
Thoughts?
Mark
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Hello Tony
Yes it is a Gecko lizard. So we stay on topic here. Remember the talking
gecko lizard is not trying to pay out so total losses vehicles become good EV
conversions. His ads states he can save you money on your insurance policy. He
never states he will pay off like jackpot when you make an insurance claim.
Insurance companies are not in the business of giving away money. The
following research shows no reason to believe different.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gecko
Here is talking lizard on eBay
200116455972
I have no association with the above auction. I do not recommend buying
wrecked vehicles for EV conversions. Better option would be a vehicle that
needs
a motor or AT transmission replacement.
Don Blazer
In a message dated 6/7/2007 3:17:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
many insurance companies are making record profits? " And in 2006 --- with
no
major disasters -- the industry made $60 billion in profits."
_http://www.wtov9.com/news/10697983/detail.html_
(http://www.wtov9.com/news/10697983/detail.html) This does not happen by
insurance companies giving away money. The
lizard advertises he can save you money. Do you see that lizard giving out
wads
of cash to happy collision centers?
Isn't it a Gecko? :)
- Tony
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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