EV Digest 6859
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) AC/DC thing
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Otmar is getting rich? (was Tesla roadster motor philsophy)
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Tesla roadster motor philosophy
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Ann Arbor, MI Green Fair June 15
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) troll? Re: Otmar is getting rich? (was Tesla roadster motor philsophy)
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Tesla roadster motor philosophy
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Otmar is getting rich? (was Tesla roadster motor philsophy)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Woohoo! just finished homemade capacitive discharge spot battery
tab welder
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: An indesent proposition
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Twin Motors, forklifts and drive belts?
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Woohoo! just finished homemade capacitive discharge spot battery tab
welder
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Otmar is getting rich? (was Tesla roadster motor philsophy)
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) GM 350 crankshaft pattern
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: An indesent proposition, Too.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Battery Venting
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) AC Motors WAS Tesla roadster motor philosophy
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Chevy motor adapters
by Steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Zivan Reprogramming
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: An indesent proposition
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Chevy motor adapters
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: GM 350 crankshaft pattern
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: An indesent proposition
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) EV count
by "Jay Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: An indesent proposition
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Chevy motor adapters
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
As always, it starts and goes nowhere.
Before any meaningful discussion whether AC is better than
DC or not, "better" has to be defined better :-)
Secondly, better for what and for whom, else there is no
answer to that. It's no different than asking if
lithium is better than lead. Of course it is, but only
until YOU have to decide what to buy for YOUR money
for YOUR EV. Suddenly lead becomes better, else why everyone
still using it??
AC is better technically, everyone wants it.
But is it better for particular John Wayland to
buy it for his WZ to put on the track to improve
his 0-60 time? No. Suddenly better drive is no longer
better when decision attached to the purpose, to the
individual, and his wallet.
A 350 kW AC drive of course will become better for John
if he receives it as a gift or 100% sponsored...
Let's leave it at that and kill the thread shall we?
No one's take on the issue has changed I'm sure.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm sending this for Otmar, who is busy in his bat cave working on a green
box:
----------------------------------------------------------
I'm getting rich?! Wonderful! That's great news, My A&P/AI will be happy.
I haven't seen the original post, but in a way I am feeling rich.
When I sold my house in Kalifornia I was able to buy an airplane, get a
pilots licence and support my philanthropic Zilla building for yet another
year. It certainly made me feel rich for a while and now I can buy
hamburgers for only $100. (airplane joke) Eventually my plan is to build a
electric airplane.
So far this year Cafe has Electric had a large increase in Z2K orders. Z2Ks
have more profit built in than the Z1K models and because of that I'm able
to start a new employee to manage the business next week. (still no health
insurance for any of us, if you know of a affordable plan I'd love to hear
about it) Once again it will be a close call at the end of the year, but if
she can bring production volumes up (good chance of that since I'm spread
too thin these days) then we'll probably turn a profit this year for a
change and I'd be a much happier person. (back orders make me unhappy, since
my implicit promise is that I will supply you all with controllers) We
certainly have the backorders to pull off a profitable year and I suspect
our Z1K-LV volume would double (financially a bit of a curse
actually) of we had product in stock on the shelf.
If Dan was offering help to me (I missed that part), he fails to realize
that his offer of "help" would just mean much more work for me. People like
Lee H, Bob S, John W, Rick W, Dale G, Greg S, Arthur H, Pliskin and Putman,
My dad Hermann and many other smart and generous people that are slipping my
mind at the moment brought the Zilla to where it is now. I am very thankful
to them for their help.
Heck, back in 1991 when I started this I couldn't tell you which way current
flowed in a diode, dad helped with that! :)
But this Dan guy is a dim bulb, which wouldn't be so bad if he wasn't a
rude, immature troll. Trolls, by definition are a waste of time.
Now you all should remember the one golden rule about internet trolls. Don't
feed them, and they will go away. Whoops, I guess I've just fed him. Sorry
about that. Ignoring them is usually the best policy.
Have fun and remember what Dale always said:
My car would be zero emissions, if the tires would quit smoking!
-Otmar
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I beg to differ! First off skin effect has nothing to do with voltage.
It has to do with changes in current. In a DC motor, even though the
PWM changes the voltage rapidly, the motor's inductance keeps the
current from changing a lot so skin effect is not very applicable.
Skin effect reduces the benefit of using thicker wire. Just where it
becomes significant is a factor of freq and wire thickness. For thicker
wire, skin effect is significant at lower freq. We are using freakish
thick wire due to the current involved thus skin effect is significant
at surprisingly low freq.
For example, at 25KHz skin depth is still 0.418mm, the max conductor
size which won't see skin effect is 20 ga! That doesn't mean 16 ga
"won't work" or won't work better than 20 ga, but the marginal gains of
increasing wire thickness drop off make a single 2 ga conductor
inadequate and trying to go to a single 0 ga or bigger is of almost no
additional value to resolve the issue. Multiple conductors are necessary.
In fact, for 2ga, the highest freq before skin effect begins to apply is
490Hz! (not KHz).
The way to avoid skin effect is multiple conductors. I know this seems
to be black magic that 10 strands would suddenly become far lower
resistance if they're individually electrically insulated from each
other in a bundle as opposed to a bundle where the strands are not
insulated from each other. But that is essentially the situation.
Don't burn me as a witch or anything.
Danny
Jeff Shanab wrote:
Ac in the armature? well kinda
As the bar passes under a brush and the coil is shorted and goes to
completely zero the direction of current in the armature coil is reversed.
This happens 4 times / rotation so at 6000rpm we are talking about
400hz. But this is equivilant to only 2 cycles so 200hz.
We need 100,000V or we need mhz freq to get worysome skin effects.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To any Mid-USA EV enthusiasts, Ann Arbor Michigan is
hosting their annual Green Fair on June 15 from 6-9pm
on Main Street. This event will include some
ElectricMotorcycles.net members with the help of Terry
Richards who has volunteered to be the POC for us.
More info is at http://www.electricmotorcycles.net
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
Isn't it about time we stopped even reading
this guy's posts? It's obvious he is all hat and no cattle
to put it nicely.
Dan, either back up your bull with your own
controller or shut up. Your ignorance about controller
design, business apparently from your posts is hugh.
So how many controllers have you built Dan?
How many EV's have you built?? This is retrorical because
I'll notread anymore of your posts, threads and hopefully
everyone else here will.
Doing an EV business isn't easy as the
volumes are low and have been forever. Otmar is doing a job
better than anyone. And his products are excellent though
way too costly, powerful for me, many want them because of
his excellent quality, reliability and no one else in the
world has built controllers bettwer than him or even come
close. Ot is respected because of what he does, you are not
respected for what you do on this list.
It's time for you to apoligise to Ot and
the list for being such an A--. And you might want to see a
mental health person as you show signs. I'm I clear?
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Otmar is getting rich? (was Tesla roadster
motor philsophy)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 03:23:14 +0200
>Rarely have I seen such asskissing : )
>do you think he will pat you on your head and say good dog?
>
>As I said to him if it's such a burden for him, why the
>strong resistance against letting others help.
>It's one thing to want to keep design secrets but please
>don't pretend it's out of idealism. because it isn't and
>only compounds it with lies
>
>Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> Man I have got to pay more attention to the EVDL.
>>
>> Otmar is getting rich building 'zillas? Way to go dude,
>> how the heck did you manage that?
>> What with the high cost of materials used and large
>> ammount of labor required for each one, I always figured
>> that you were making less per hour than I am, and I'm
>> certainly not getting rich (though some silly high school
>kid might think so since I make more than the average
>> McDonald's employee)
>>
>> I've got to admit, I'm still confused at how you can sell
>> your hand built 'zillas at 1/4 the price per watt of the
>> mass produced Curtis controllers and still make a profit.
>> Now I hear that not only are you managing to make a
>>profit, but you're getting rich.
>> Since a man with your skills could make way more with a
>> converntional job, I always figured you were building
>> controllers because you loved EVs.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
AC motors don't have "one sweet spot". Well I guess they do, but that
sweet spot is so big it covers a large portion of the operating range.
This is why most commercial AC designs use a single ratio reduction, they
are so efficient over such a wide band they don't /need/ multiple gears.
>
> I was just talking with some one about AC vs DC efficiency and the
> fellow was saying DC is more efficient because you can keep the RPMs in
> the sweet spot by shifting gears where as with an AC motor there is only
> one sweet spot and you are often not at that spot. Also the AC
> electronics are not as efficient as a DC controller. Some of this can
> be made up by regenative breaking.
>
> How true is this?
>
> Peter
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Rarely have I seen such asskissing : )
> do you think he will pat you on your head and say good dog?
Does this mean that you won't build my garage for me?
Oh well, someone else to add to my auto-delete filter.
>
> As I said to him if it's such a burden for him, why the strong
> resistance against letting others help.
> It's one thing to want to keep design secrets but please don't pretend
> it's out of idealism. because it isn't and only compounds it with lies
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> Man I have got to pay more attention to the EVDL.
>>
>> Otmar is getting rich building 'zillas? Way to go dude, how the heck
>> did
>> you manage that?
>> What with the high cost of materials used and large ammount of labor
>> required for each one, I always figured that you were making less per
>> hour
>> than I am, and I'm certainly not getting rich (though some silly high
>> school kid might think so since I make more than the average McDonald's
>> employee)
>>
>> I've got to admit, I'm still confused at how you can sell your hand
>> built
>> 'zillas at 1/4 the price per watt of the mass produced Curtis
>> controllers
>> and still make a profit. Now I hear that not only are you managing to
>> make a profit, but you're getting rich.
>>
>> Since a man with your skills could make way more with a converntional
>> job,
>> I always figured you were building controllers because you loved EVs.
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The way I understand it is the transfer of heat from the weld process is
related to the speed in which it gets welded. A long, lower amp pulse
will get the same weld but transfer more heat into the cell. The vent is
right there and can get damaged, that is then all she wrote after a
fraction of the rated cycles. It won't die immediately, just sooner.
The energy of the fast weld vs the slow weld are the same, but the heat
transfer is a function of time (dQ/dt)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am forced to disagree here.
Through the development of standards and pooling of $ and
information, I think we could.
I have already researched a lot of what is needed for the AC motor,
the Reducetion gear, the chassis, BMS and battery assembly. The AC
controller is my weakest area. But if for example, The list decided on
some standardized interfaces, (protocol,electrical, and mechanical) we
could break into smaller groups and work on our areas of expertize.
Obviously there can be no privatization if we do this.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow, I am wondering if you are considering the other aspects of running
a business.
long...I hope this is not to "off topic", but I really think this is
relevant.
Liability. I think Otmar is responsible enough to care about
the safety of using his product. Both from the standpoint of reputation
and a genuine concern that someone gets hurt using one of his
controllers. I know this is a big concern of mine when I think about
building an ev for people. Also there is a financial issue if even 1
person sues, you could be shut down. this requires insurance that may be
based per unit.
Manufacturing Process. I know some of the criteria on some of the
mechanical components in the zilla. It is critical and as the saying
goes, "Precision costs".
One time when I was starting a buisness, I had an older customer that
helped me get started by buying a lot from me. He also tought me an
important lesson. Everyone has a right to make a profit. You don't want
to buy from someone who doesn't as they won't be able to afford testing,
research, or insurance. Or they will give up after a short while because
it is not worth it.
Haveing employees. Each employee costs 3 times what you pay them.
Not counting training.
I admit, at first, I thought that both the zilla and the PFC charger
were overpriced. But I soon learned that they are very well built and
that to have that quality available in such specialized quantities is
rare.(most buisnesses won't waste there time with something that small)
The best thing we can do is continue to buy from them to increase the
volume. Sure competition is a good thing, but it is useless when a
market is saturated,(fire sales, buisnesses close) or when market is
starved(Only a few manufacturers willing to bother)
I am not defending, ass-kissing or ass-kicking, I am stating the nature
of the pro-hobby market.
There is a jump that has to be made to get the economy of scale to work.
It is not a nice smooth linear relation.
Lets say you are selling 100 units you create a month by yourself, but
as soon as you need to get an employee you not only have to jump up to
sales of 300 or 500 to maintain same profit level(whatever it is), but
you have to be assured that this demand stays there. You can't hire,
train, produce, layoff, then repeat.
If your unit depends on other things outside your control, you are
screwed. ie, I can't sell more controllers than people are converting
cars and if the building of chargers doesn't jump up to match, my sales
may get bogged down.
The jumps are more log based ... 10, 1000, 10000, 100000
We are in that awkward space between 10 and 1000 /month.
Something that can help...standards.
If for example we all decided on the standard adoption of the chevy
350 crank pattern, one of us could take on the buisness of making the
adapter. Then many others could spring up around that making kits that
work with it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- childreypa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 1. Is buying the forklift, no matter how cheap,
> worth it? Is there really any other usable parts and
> enough cables to we work the effort of hauling and
> transporting?
I don't think I'd be into buying the whole lift but
there might be other usable motors on it besides the
drive units like the lift and steer motors for a small
fun project. As others have noted the controller will
be small voltage and not very useful to you unless
used with the pump motor for a gokart or such.
>
> 2. As I remember, both motors only have a drive
> shaft on one end. Can I have a machine shop weld an
> extention onto one motor and lathe it down. So I can
> couple the second motor behind it. Will it be strong
> enough? Can I press in a new shaft? Is it possible
> or worth it?
A lot depends on what type of motor they are, some
shafts pop right out while others won't. Sometimes
you must bore out the front half where it sits in the
commutator or you'll crush it towards the laminations
as the shaft presses out of the lams but remains tight
on the comm. If you'd like send me some pics and I'll
put an eyeball on them for you for further input.
As for shaft extentions and the like, I've seen a
couple decent ones but have also had stuff sent to me
"after" some local shop butchered an attempt first.
A lot has to do with who is going to do the repair and
then what OEM shaft is there to work with.
> 3. Can I have both motors mounted side by side
> connected with a timing belt arangement similar to a
> motorcycle drive belt and how long do you think that
> would last?
As was previously posted yep.
>
> 4. Is the 36v controller any good? Can I use this at
> low speeds and starts and then cut it out with a
> contactor and do the rest of my speed control with
> contactors arangng the batteries in series/
> parrallel?
I'd say not worth the time, but I'm the motor guy so..
Seems like a good choice for a lawnmowwer / gokart
option though, be worth grabbing up as there would be
something it "could" be used on.
> Sorry this is so many questions. They all just seem
> to come up at the same time.
> Thanks, Paul
That's what this list is for 8^)
Hopefully this helps a little ><
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks. In an effort to get a faster weld, I'm going to try clicking the foot
pedal faster. I have a foot pedal that activates the welder, and if I click it
fast, the voltage of the capacitor bank doesn't drop as much, maybe from 10V to
8V, versus all the way to below 1V if I press it for like 1/2 a second or a
second.
I ordered a 1.6F car audio cap from eBay, with a low ESR so hopefully it can
discharge faster, hopefully this will help give stronger, and safer welds.
- Tony
----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 6:27:37 AM
Subject: Re: Woohoo! just finished homemade capacitive discharge spot battery
tab welder
The way I understand it is the transfer of heat from the weld process is
related to the speed in which it gets welded. A long, lower amp pulse
will get the same weld but transfer more heat into the cell. The vent is
right there and can get damaged, that is then all she wrote after a
fraction of the rated cycles. It won't die immediately, just sooner.
The energy of the fast weld vs the slow weld are the same, but the heat
transfer is a function of time (dQ/dt)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not kick, just educate. Most of us start out not really understanding
the free market, we have been so walmartized.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 2007-06-10 at 07:09 -0700, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> Something that can help...standards.
> If for example we all decided on the standard adoption of the chevy
> 350 crank pattern, one of us could take on the buisness of making the
> adapter. Then many others could spring up around that making kits that
> work with it.
I like this idea, but I want to make sure I understand. Say for example
I have a Honda or a Subaru or even a VW, but I want to take advantage of
a cheap standardized part. I buy one of these inexpensive mass-produced
adapter hubs, and then buy an off-the-shelf clutch assembly for it,
maybe a high-performance aftermarket item, maybe just a GM part..
Then I go out and buy a clutch disk (or use the one I have) that fits
the spline on my non-GM transmission input shaft? Is this doable in
general? How standardized is the thickness and diameter of clutch
disks? (How much does it matter?)
Or am I confused?
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: An indesent proposition
I am forced to disagree here.
Through the development of standards and pooling of $ and
information, I think we could.
I have already researched a lot of what is needed for the AC motor,
the Reducetion gear, the chassis, BMS and battery assembly. The AC
controller is my weakest area. But if for example, The list decided on
some standardized interfaces, (protocol,electrical, and mechanical) we
could break into smaller groups and work on our areas of expertize.
Obviously there can be no privatization if we do this.
Hi EVerybody;
Well, we actually HAVE a few folks on the List, quietly working on
production EV's. Jerry Dycus, for one, with the Freedom EV 3 wheeler. Those
of you that did Battery Beach Burnout saw the Prototype. I speak from
experiance that it takes a hellova lot of work to bring an EV to life. EVen
just a damn conversion!
The other none other than Lee Hart. Yup! The Lee that is right here to
answer the zuillion questions on the List, and STILL have a bit of time to
give away designs for Battery managment systems. Lee and a few other of us
are trying to revive the Forgotten Solectria Sunrise design.We want to start
off with a kit car concept. Of course a turnkey thing too. But it tales time
DEEP pockets. So talk to Lee with a open checkbook, Jerry, too.
I see all this bickrering about Otmar making a fortune. Hah! How to make
a million bux with EV's is to start with TWO million. Otmar has gone beyond
the call, like Jim Husted, Victor, Rich, just to mention a few here. Rewind
to 35 years ago,or so. I remember having NO real suppliers of EV "Stuff" ya
made do with what EVer you could find! I have been in this thing since the
Electric Fuel Propulsion daze with Bob Aronson, back in the (Gasp!) late
60's. We have come along a long way, baby!
So, sorry if I "Outed" you guyz, Jerry, Lee, and I woulda anybody ELSE
actually DOING EV's here, I mean with a production thought.These guyz are to
polite to beg for money, but they write the checks to their help/suppliers
to keep things going. I would be doing these things too, if I were a better
engineer than talker, and had deeper pockets! So I send what I can, have to
settle up with the Infernal Residue Service, first.And my Town Taxes, for
starters.As a Warp motor dealer I'm not getting rich.Have sold MORE this
year than all the LAST few years! SOMEBODY is building EV's!
I just hope the Henry Ford daze aren't over, yet? That you can still
start with a dream, hard work, and a bit of support. Which we could provide
here?
-- Over to You!
Seeya at Wayland Invitational
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well - my original question was, if one can eliminate _any_ acid spray by
using a filling system. A was assuming that those systems would vent all
gases out of the battery box. The so called 'Miser Caps' are also a
possibility as they somehow manage to let the gas escape put are able to
retain most of the moisture.
Recycle caps are not really an option as they have to be removed during
equalization.
So - anyone with experience with either a floodie filling system or 'miser
caps' ?
mm./
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: Tesla roadster motor philosophy
AC motors don't have "one sweet spot". Well I guess they do, but that
sweet spot is so big it covers a large portion of the operating range.
This is why most commercial AC designs use a single ratio reduction, they
are so efficient over such a wide band they don't /need/ multiple gears.
AC stuff, by the magic of electronics, have a sweet spot all over the
place! TGF train in France comes to mind. The Acela on our shores, too.
The 14k of POWER at the flick of a throttle, is a Zombie like joy at
takeoffs! AND throw in all that heartwarming regen, surging smoothly back
into the overhead wires(Battery, if ya will?) I think Lee said that the
DC motor is really an AC motor with mechanical(brushes) phaze control?
Correct me if I'm wrong. AC stuff is fast enough for me. I have driven
Rav-4's and EV-1's, Acelas, too. No TGV's..........Yet?!
Seeya
Bob
I was just talking with some one about AC vs DC efficiency and the
fellow was saying DC is more efficient because you can keep the RPMs in
the sweet spot by shifting gears where as with an AC motor there is only
one sweet spot and you are often not at that spot. Also the AC
electronics are not as efficient as a DC controller. Some of this can
be made up by regenative breaking.
How true is this?
Peter
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.13/842 - Release Date: 6/9/2007
10:46 AM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > Jeff Shanab said:
> > Marty.
> > I am no longer in a position to make them, I used to work as a
> > moldmaker in a plastic shop and have switched to software engineering.
> > I will dust off the old server today and put it on this slow
> > connection, it will be reminessant of dialup but I'll get it to ya.
I am converting an older corvette, and am keenly interested in this
particular flavor of adapter! I can offer a fast web site to host
drawings, etc. for access by the community. Get the raw stuff to me
and I'll handle the clean up.
Clearing up some facts:
Earlier Roland Wiench said:
> Do not use a later large crank flange where the flange is not
> completely round, which are use for the external balance engines.
It is my belief that the 'non-round' crank ends are used in the chevy
large-block line, ie. 396 ci. and up. I've never seen a non-round crank
flange on a small-block, ie. 265/283/327/350/400. Can anyone confirm
this one way or the other?
There are 'early' flanges, with a 3.5" bolt hole pattern, and 'late'
flanges with a 3" pattern. I believe that the 3.5" corresponds to
the "1st generation", aka "split seal" model, while the 3" is
the "2nd generation", aka "one piece seal" model. Confirmation?
---
Steve
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--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone figured out how to reprogram a Zivan charger
themselves? I know, in an ideal world you would just hook a cable up
to a laptop and type in the parameters desired. I know we cant do
that, but is it possible to do anything? I have shipped mine back to
Greg three times now, and I would rather have more direct control.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey Joe!
Quick answer, a jokingly "No".
There's way tons of expertise on this list but everyone would butt
heads.
The first question would be "Should we go AC or DC?" ROFL :-)
I have a funny story. I come from a family of engineers. My dad's an
Industrial Engineer and a pilot, my sister is a Mechanical Engineer,
her husband is an Electrical Engineer, my wife is a Human-Factors
engineer and my grandfather is a Chemical Engineer and of course I
ended up being an artist, who loves drawing cars. Out of all those
engineers in the family I'm the one who embarked on converting a car
to electric. Go figure.
But the funny thing is, one day our family got together and I
suggested, "With all the engineers in the family we could start a
car company. I could design the cars . . . " My sister interrupted,
laughing and said,
"Yea, Chip can design the car and we can tell him it can't be done."
Chip
On Jun 10, 2007, at 2:36 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: June 9, 2007 9:26:17 PM EDT
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: An indesent proposition
With the expertise that is on this list would it be possible for us
as a group to produce a vehicle that is similar in performance to
the TESLA? That is performance and range?
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--- Begin Message ---
A couple resources I have found:
From the horses mouth:
http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/performance_parts/store/catalog/Category.jhtmlCATID=913.html
http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/performance_parts/store/catalog/Category.jhtmlCATID=883.html
and
http://www.nastyz28.com/sbcmenu.html
To my knowledge, before 1986, the small block 400 was the only externally
balanced small block, but I don't know about roundness of the crank end. I
think the bolt pattern is the same anyway, so that should only be relevent
if you are cutting up a crank to make an adapter. Then the big concern, I
believe, is making sure you can find a forged crank and not a cast crank to
start with. According to the third reference above, Roland is right,
although forged passenger car cranks were fairly rare, forged truck cranks
may be easier to find. Or maybe we can find a crank rebuilder that scraps
some cranks that we could cut up? Forged Chevy small block cranks are
probably the most trafficked crank in existance in the race world. There
has to be a surplus of trashed ones someplace.
I'll have to go dig around in the garage this afternoon and look at cranks,
I've got a few Chevy ones out there.
I'm in discussion with Electro Automotive. They may have the pattern
already from a previous project, or maybe be willing to do it if enough of
us express interest: http://www.electroauto.com/index.html
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 9:43 AM
Subject: Chevy motor adapters
> Jeff Shanab said:
> Marty.
> I am no longer in a position to make them, I used to work as a
> moldmaker in a plastic shop and have switched to software engineering.
> I will dust off the old server today and put it on this slow
> connection, it will be reminessant of dialup but I'll get it to ya.
I am converting an older corvette, and am keenly interested in this
particular flavor of adapter! I can offer a fast web site to host
drawings, etc. for access by the community. Get the raw stuff to me
and I'll handle the clean up.
Clearing up some facts:
Earlier Roland Wiench said:
Do not use a later large crank flange where the flange is not
completely round, which are use for the external balance engines.
It is my belief that the 'non-round' crank ends are used in the chevy
large-block line, ie. 396 ci. and up. I've never seen a non-round crank
flange on a small-block, ie. 265/283/327/350/400. Can anyone confirm
this one way or the other?
There are 'early' flanges, with a 3.5" bolt hole pattern, and 'late'
flanges with a 3" pattern. I believe that the 3.5" corresponds to
the "1st generation", aka "split seal" model, while the 3" is
the "2nd generation", aka "one piece seal" model. Confirmation?
---
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Keep in mind there are a number of Chevy crank types. The one I'm
standardizing on is the older V8 pattern, which is probably the most catered
to pattern ever in the aftermarket. Once I've got that on the motor, I can
bolt up a flywheel (stock, or off the shelf lightweight high RPM designs),
an automatic trans flex plate, or couplers to direct drive manual
transmissions or a few automatic transmissions with no clutch/converter.
It's all off the shelf bolt in stuff for the older Chevy V8 pattern. With a
Chevy motor plate and spacer, I'll be able to bolt in a huge variety of
Chevy rear wheel drive transmissions. Many of them were a fixed length, so
dirve shaft length wouldn't even need to change.
I'll let Jeff and others cover the part about furrin car adaption, he knows
more than me about that.
I wouldn't get my hopes up too much for a cheap adapter, nothing we're doing
is mass production (I don't think). It's still machined one at a time. But
at least we wouldn't have to ship crankshafts, flywheels and transmissions
around and wait for custom designs to be machined. It would probably affect
convenience and lead time (as well as saving money on flywheels) more than
the price of the hub for now at least. And if you want to go clutchless
manual or converterless auto, bolt in parts availability is nice.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 9:32 AM
Subject: GM 350 crankshaft pattern
On Sun, 2007-06-10 at 07:09 -0700, Jeff Shanab wrote:
Something that can help...standards.
If for example we all decided on the standard adoption of the chevy
350 crank pattern, one of us could take on the buisness of making the
adapter. Then many others could spring up around that making kits that
work with it.
I like this idea, but I want to make sure I understand. Say for example
I have a Honda or a Subaru or even a VW, but I want to take advantage of
a cheap standardized part. I buy one of these inexpensive mass-produced
adapter hubs, and then buy an off-the-shelf clutch assembly for it,
maybe a high-performance aftermarket item, maybe just a GM part..
Then I go out and buy a clutch disk (or use the one I have) that fits
the spline on my non-GM transmission input shaft? Is this doable in
general? How standardized is the thickness and diameter of clutch
disks? (How much does it matter?)
Or am I confused?
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
LOL
Search the Archives for "Shep the charger" and the open source controller.
Those were earlier (failed) projects trying to decide on standard, open
source, products. Nothing ever came out of them or the dozen or so other
"standards" folks have tried to establish on this list.
About the only "standard" that sort of stuck, was using 14-50 plugs and
outlets, and even that is only used by few folks (here in the USA), mostly
those that have other EVers around.
> I am forced to disagree here.
> Through the development of standards and pooling of $ and
> information, I think we could.
> I have already researched a lot of what is needed for the AC motor,
> the Reducetion gear, the chassis, BMS and battery assembly. The AC
> controller is my weakest area. But if for example, The list decided on
> some standardized interfaces, (protocol,electrical, and mechanical) we
> could break into smaller groups and work on our areas of expertize.
> Obviously there can be no privatization if we do this.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there an estimate of how many EVs are in daily (or near daily) use in the
USA?
JLC
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oops, sorry. I meant the EV-64 charger. Shep the charger was an offshoot
of that. Come to think of it, I think I was the one to coin that term.
> LOL
>
> Search the Archives for "Shep the charger" and the open source controller.
>
> Those were earlier (failed) projects trying to decide on standard, open
> source, products. Nothing ever came out of them or the dozen or so other
> "standards" folks have tried to establish on this list.
>
> About the only "standard" that sort of stuck, was using 14-50 plugs and
> outlets, and even that is only used by few folks (here in the USA), mostly
> those that have other EVers around.
>
>> I am forced to disagree here.
>> Through the development of standards and pooling of $ and
>> information, I think we could.
>> I have already researched a lot of what is needed for the AC motor,
>> the Reducetion gear, the chassis, BMS and battery assembly. The AC
>> controller is my weakest area. But if for example, The list decided on
>> some standardized interfaces, (protocol,electrical, and mechanical) we
>> could break into smaller groups and work on our areas of expertize.
>> Obviously there can be no privatization if we do this.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In finding a steel forge crank with a round flange for a internal balance
engine, I went to my machinist that just does engine rebuilding which is
four blocks away, most of the cranks he had was for a external balance
engine. These are cast iron and does not have a round crank flange.
some of these cranks were the 80's style 350 cu.in. engines
He had only one crank left in stock that was for a 56 Chevy V-8 that was
forge steel with a round flange. He cried when I told him I going to cut
off the flange for a motor adapter. These type of cranks are rare and fetch
a price more than a new crank.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 8:43 AM
Subject: Chevy motor adapters
> > > Jeff Shanab said:
> > > Marty.
> > > I am no longer in a position to make them, I used to work as a
> > > moldmaker in a plastic shop and have switched to software engineering.
> > > I will dust off the old server today and put it on this slow
> > > connection, it will be reminessant of dialup but I'll get it to ya.
>
> I am converting an older corvette, and am keenly interested in this
> particular flavor of adapter! I can offer a fast web site to host
> drawings, etc. for access by the community. Get the raw stuff to me
> and I'll handle the clean up.
>
> Clearing up some facts:
>
> Earlier Roland Wiench said:
> > Do not use a later large crank flange where the flange is not
> > completely round, which are use for the external balance engines.
>
> It is my belief that the 'non-round' crank ends are used in the chevy
> large-block line, ie. 396 ci. and up. I've never seen a non-round crank
> flange on a small-block, ie. 265/283/327/350/400. Can anyone confirm
> this one way or the other?
>
> There are 'early' flanges, with a 3.5" bolt hole pattern, and 'late'
> flanges with a 3" pattern. I believe that the 3.5" corresponds to
> the "1st generation", aka "split seal" model, while the 3" is
> the "2nd generation", aka "one piece seal" model. Confirmation?
>
> ---
> Steve
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
