EV Digest 6858
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Motor Adapter plate
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Tesla roadster motor philosophy
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Tesla roadster motor philsophy
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: aluminum wire for EVs?
by Marcin Ciosek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Woohoo! just finished homemade capacitive discharge spot battery tab
welder
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Tesla roadster motor philosophy
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Tesla roadster motor philosophy
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Otmar is getting rich? (was Tesla roadster motor philsophy)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) An indesent proposition
by Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Tesla roadster motor philosophy
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: An indesent proposition
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Tesla roadster motor philosophy
by Peter Eckhoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Lawless Drag Race Update Weds Night
by J Z <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Otmar is getting rich? (was Tesla roadster motor philsophy)
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Tesla roadster motor philosophy
by Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: An indesent proposition
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Tesla roadster motor philosophy
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Otmar is getting rich? (was Tesla roadster motor philsophy)
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Otmar is getting rich? (was Tesla roadster motor philsophy)
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) OJ dragster joins 125 club, gets closer to single digits
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) Re: Tesla roadster motor philosophy
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Marty.
I am no longer in a position to make them, I used to work as a
moldmaker in a plastic shop and have switched to software engineering.
I will dust off the old server today and put it on this slow
connection, it will be reminessant of dialup but I'll get it to ya.
I am going to manufacture 3phase and rebuild an old bridgport and
slowly turn my garage into a shop when I get some $, I think a Haas VF2
will fit, but powering it may be an issue. When I had qty 10 quoted by a
local machine shop, the cost came out to within a few dollars of
e-machine shop, I think the local shop was using their software to quote!.
Using 4140
Here are the steps I used. Designing around a standard taperlock
bushing may be a better long term soulution. I made it in < 2 hours.
A piece of round stock kissed diameter as ref and faced off in
lathe and the hole for the motor shaft +.001 bored in it and put the
taper on it. (leave the lathe compound set at 7 degrees)
Put this in a vee block on the mill by that ref diameter and put
in 6 1/4-20 holes
Slice off useful part (bandsaw or part off in lathe)
set face domn on grinder and clean up back(helps next step
Use press to broach keyway slot
put in vice on grinder and use cutoff wheel to make a slit
90degress or 180 degress from keyway.
The crank adapter was made from an old motor shaft from a shop
that repairs big as electric motors.
Trying to buy a small piece of 4140 for a reasonable price
proved impossible. I was lucky to get this doorstop for free.
in lathe, bore back end, tapered hole .050 deeper than bushing.
Flip it around and cut the chevy reproduction. Including the
place for the bushing. My design has that bell that pushes the motor
back from the adapter plate giving me the room for that bushing.
Put in mill and put in the holes.
I have about 8K miles on it and it was tested to over 8000rpm (see
Jim Husted's ouch gallery)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ac in the armature? well kinda
As the bar passes under a brush and the coil is shorted and goes to
completely zero the direction of current in the armature coil is reversed.
This happens 4 times / rotation so at 6000rpm we are talking about
400hz. But this is equivilant to only 2 cycles so 200hz.
We need 100,000V or we need mhz freq to get worysome skin effects.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
Hello to All,
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
John Wayland wrote:
David, there's a brand of DC controller that protects against the
above. Every single Zilla controller cannot run without and is mated
to, a Hairball interface that provides absolute protection against
the full-on runaway you describe.
John, what David meant....
Victor, the point I was making wasn't about 'what David meant'...it was
about 'what David omitted'...that being the fact that not all DC
controllers can cause an EV to run-away. He completely over-looked the
Zilla's built-in safety features that totally prevent this. You cannot
hook up a Zilla without this feature enabled.
Contactors which you ONLY rely on, are not part of Zilla controller.
It's outside, additional hardware. Without it DC controller will fail
full on. The safety you describe is overall vehicle safety with all
this hardware in place, not inherent DC controller itself topology
safety vs AC inverter's.
AC inverter does not have to have contactors or any extra devices
outside to assure no runaways. DC controller does, this is the only point.
Not to spoil it John, but as Roger usually puts it you "conveniently
forgetting" (tm) that, unlike Tesla, WZ has really two motors.
Surely it's a fair comparison to bring up an $8000 DC drive and talk
about what it can do against, what, a $20,000 AC drive?
Here we go again. Are we discussing performance (1 Tesla motor vs. two
WZ motors), or we discussing costs and performance per dollar?
Bottom line you're comparing their non - drag racing car with your drag
racing one and saying yours is quicker. OF course, what do you expect?
A DC system based on Otmar's high performance controller & installed in
the Tesla however, would turn it on its ear blowing away its current
performance with way more power than it presently has.
John, this is useless discussion, as you seem to lock up only on
0-60 thing (per dollar) and nothing else matters. In this respect
cheaper solution is to short a motor to the battery on the drag
strip to have the same performance and avoid cost of the Zilla all
together. Knife disconnect for fool proof safety. Why don't we
discuss this if 0-60 only matters?
Would DC be the
best choice to try to warranty to picky high dollar customers who will
be out there pushing their Teslas to the top end speed limits?
What's the warranty on WZ?
With the
fireball monster always around the corner at extreme high voltage-high
DC performance levels?
What fireball? I hear about fireballing commutators on this list very
often. Never heard of any fireballs with any AC systems. Any examples?
Single one.
Probably not. AC is great. we all know this. It's
also way more expensive than DC when acceleration per dollar is figured
in. Some of us know this and openly talk about it, others act like it
doesn't exist.
I talk about it. When we discuss technical advantages, that's
one thing. When we discuss if they worth for Joe, this is other.
A wise man once said:
>if identical raw power DC and AC systems would
>cost the same, everyone in their right mind would choose AC.
Yes, I remember who that was. There is big IF. So they don't cost
the same and AC cost more for the reasons not relevant for drag
racing applications, especially on budget ones. So if you apply
AC advantages to the wrong field, they will lose.
David often speaks glowingly about his AC powered Geo Metro. What he
doesn't talk about too much, is that his car was a ridiculously priced
converted econo-car that Solectria made for the bargain price of just
$40,000!!! Who (to quote Victor) "in their right mind" pays $40,000 for
a Geo Metro that's even slower than a stock wheezer Metro? Now, getting
one used for 1/4 that price? Maybe :-)
I agree, very few. That's Solectria's pricing policy though, not
disadvantage of AC drive. If they chose to charge 80k instead of
40k, this does not make AC drive (or whole Metro for that matter)
worse - it just make their marketing department appear like
ignorant greedy idiots. Got nothing to do with AC vs DC discussion.
I do agree with Victor's statement. So Victor...where's that 350 kw AC
system for $8000 that I can replace my DC system with?
It's at the factory waiting for orders to produce them with the same
quantities as DC motors and controllers are, not build by hand.
I don't get it. Why do you expect AC system which delivers 350kW
+ so much more to cost the same as DC system which delivers
NOTHING EXTRA other than 350 kW??
Again, that extra may not be relevant for 0-60 thing, but doesn't
mean you should have it for free, does it?
You know, it's
the one installed in my steel bodied car that holds the world record for
the quickest 1/4 mile ET for a street legal car that still has doors on
it. This 2580 lb. DC car is more than a second quicker and nearly 17 mph
faster through the 1/4 mile (12.1 @ 106.5 mph)
John, John, I hear you. You're talking about drag racing which is cool
thing, but not everyone is so obsessed with idea of keep snapping their
necks on every intersection.
No one builds unsophisticated (cheap) AC inverters just to demonstrate
raw power - it's the same silicon switches inside after all. Controlling
it requires more engineering costs. As Otmar demonstrated, silicon
responsible for power is small fraction of even DC controller cost.
... than the early version
highly touted $75,000 fiberglass kit car AC powered tZero with its 13.24
@ 90 mph ET when it had lead acid batteries and was 130 lbs. lighter
than WZ at 2450 lbs. Even when fitted with 700 lbs. of exotic lithium
batteries...vehicle now priced at over $100,000 and weighing just 1950
lbs. ... the tZero's beefed up 165 kw AC system still can't
out-accelerate my 2580 lb. Datsun with its DC system powered by lead acid.
You said it well - exotic batteries are used, custom engineering was
involved and you expect it ti cost the same as components you can
find on junk yard.
When we try the A123 lithium pack a month from now, the sub-1900 lb.
WZ's ET will probably dip deep into the 11s, and if it does we'll
actually have NEDRA - NHRA certified time slips to back up our ET claims
(unless we get thrown off the track for lacking a roll cage for sub 11.5
second runs)...no goofy flag waving rolling starts needed. Barring any
electrical-mechanical problems, White Zombie should be able to eclipse
all validated 1/4 mile ETs for street legal electric cars...even the
'skeleton' tube frame 'thing' that's being foisted as a real car to
everyone, the Wrightspeed...all on caveman DC!
We probably have to split EVDL in two: drag racing heads and everyone
else :-)
Would WZ be quicker and faster with a 250-300 kw AC power plant capable
of spinning up to 12k rpm? Absolutely! Maybe, some day :-)
It can be today if you're willing to pay for it. But you don't, because
there is cheaper (because mass produced) alternative. Then you're right,
if you can improve your ET with less dollars, it makes sense today.
> Until then,
AC takes a back seat to DC at the track when used in a full bodied car.
Sure, key word being "at the track". What about everyone else?
They want to build very good performance car, but not the purposely
race car like yours. It's like comparing different classes.
So it's not quite apples to apples, you know.
I agree with you on this. I repeat...AC is cool, it's certainly the way
to go for production vehicles. I have no complaints about the
synchronous pm rotor AC motor in my Honda Insight, and I loved the EV1's
AC squirrel cage induction motor system. I am not, have not, and never
have been anti AC. As I've stated in a past email, I am covertly working
on a few AC projects right now....shhhhh!
In the forklift world, AC is pretty much taking over. The difference
here though, is that it's priced right in there with the DC it's
replacing and offers superior 'everything'. The newest products from
Crown are the AC powered rider pallet jacks, and the brand new stand-up
rider forklifts that replace the old DC powered RC3000 series, that have
twin AC drive motors fed by a dual inverter/controller and an AC lift
pump motor with its owner inverter..awesome machines!
So, why don't we return to this subject some years later when AC and DC
systems will be equal commodity? Until then, it will always be
individual preference, application specific decision taking into account
cost difference.
Remember, your cost for the system is what manufacturer/seller choose
to charge you, not what it cost to produce the item.
AC system hardware is not much more expensive. Manufacturers just can't
amortize development cost over so few sold unless willing to operate
at loss, and justify to set up production to build 100-200 units per
year. So they charge more that it should be worth for these reasons,
but situation will change in a few years, I can almost promise you.
See you at the track!
Victor
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What kind of corrosion issues you have in mind?
OK, I agree that aluminum wire is hard to handle (bending etc.) but if you use
Al bars that are thick and don't bend I don't see problem.
Especially for Li-Ion cell which tabs are made of aluminum and nickel (or
nicker coated metal). It's smaller potential difference than between Ni or Al
and Cu.
Marcin
On Saturday 09 June 2007 16:43:47 joe wrote:
> The real problem with aluminum wire is the expansion factor, and the effect
> it has on connections, as well as the corrosion issue.
>
> Do not even consider using aluminum wire in an EV!!!!!!
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "chad plantenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 9:44 PM
> Subject: Re: aluminum wire for EVs?
>
> > one of the reasons aluminum has fallen out of disuse in the
> > construction industry (aside from the larger guages) was bending
> > fatigue. someone may have some better knowledge - but in a vehicle
> > with constant road vibrations - i would think that aluminum would be
> > expected to have a shorter servicable life (possibly premature
> > failure?).
> > chad
> >
> > On 6/7/07, Marcin Ciosek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Sure, you can use aluminum but to compensate lower conductivity you need
> >> to
> >> increase wire thickness. I use factor of 1.4 to for replacing copper
> >> with aluminum. If you use to thin wire you will loose some of energy on
> >> heat.
> >>
> >> Marcin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What risks are there with damaging the 26650's? The current doesn't go through
the cell.
- Tony
----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2007 2:13:08 PM
Subject: Woohoo! just finished homemade capacitive discharge spot battery tab
welder
I saw the plans for this on many a website. I opted not to do this for
my project because the research showed I would damage the 26650's with it.
What are you planning on using it on ?
>From what I am understanding a 2ms pulse at 12V and a couple thousand
amps to clean the zone just a few ms before the 4ms 400A pulse is how to
weld these 26650's(or 18650's) IF the pulse is half that amps and twice
as long the battery will be damaged.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> There is an additional issue though. AC drive systems are affected by
> skin effect, DC systems are not.
How do you figure that? Given that the power moving through the armature
coils on a DC motor IS AC?
If one were to build DC motors with the same RPM as a given AC motor, and
the same number of field poles, the frequency inside the armature would be
about the same.
>
> In addition to the skin effect issue, fundamentally the power is not
> moving through all the copper at the same time and this increases the
> effective resistance for a motor made of a given mass of copper. Motor
> winding resistance is a significant issue at these power levels. Well
> that's only the simplest observation of the difference in AC vs DC
> sizing and efficiency. I don't have the experience to know much more
> about the differences.
>
> I think the overriding benefit of AC remains the regen capability (if
> the controller supports it). This significantly benefits in-town driving.
>
> Danny
>
> Bill Dube wrote:
>
>> I agree with Victor on this one. An AC system is inherently much safer
>> than a DC system. A dropped wrench in the right spot can connect the
>> motor to the battery in a DC system and result in full throttle.
>> Shorted silicon will launch the car before the safety logic has a
>> chance to realize what has happened and drop out the main contactors.
>> The contactors open quickly, but far from "instantly."
>>
>> In an AC system, the controller must be 100% functional for
>> the motor to even turn.
>>
>> There is only twice the loss in the controller, not six times
>> the loss. There are indeed six switches, but the current flows through
>> just two in series. The voltage is typically twice as high as it is in
>> DC systems, so the current is half as much and thus the losses turn
>> out to be about the same. (The motors folks use in DC cars just can't
>> take the 300+ volts that the AC systems thrive on.)
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
it wasn't a DC vs AC issue. I just said AC because I figured it would
lend itself better to high rpm because it has no commutator. The real
issue was the use of higher voltage as a way to get more power out of a
smaller motor because higher voltage can mean less amps at the same
power output. less amps, less heat but same power.
I for one really like that you can hold the tesla roadster 4 second
motor in your hand. that makes it all the easier to put 4 of them in a
car. we just have to break down some notions about what things should
cost. ACP is even worse in that regard than cartel Otmar : ) 25000$ for
a set is just ridiculous. batteries not included
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Man I have got to pay more attention to the EVDL.
Otmar is getting rich building 'zillas? Way to go dude, how the heck did
you manage that?
What with the high cost of materials used and large ammount of labor
required for each one, I always figured that you were making less per hour
than I am, and I'm certainly not getting rich (though some silly high
school kid might think so since I make more than the average McDonald's
employee)
I've got to admit, I'm still confused at how you can sell your hand built
'zillas at 1/4 the price per watt of the mass produced Curtis controllers
and still make a profit. Now I hear that not only are you managing to
make a profit, but you're getting rich.
Since a man with your skills could make way more with a converntional job,
I always figured you were building controllers because you loved EVs.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With the expertise that is on this list would it be possible for us as a group
to produce a vehicle that is similar in performance to the TESLA? That is
performance and range?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> it wasn't a DC vs AC issue. I just said AC because I figured it would
> lend itself better to high rpm because it has no commutator. The real
> issue was the use of higher voltage as a way to get more power out of a
> smaller motor because higher voltage can mean less amps at the same
> power output. less amps, less heat but same power.
Yes, but higher RPM means higher windage losses and (I believe) high
magnetic losses. Add in the higher losses from the higher reduction ratio
needed to gear down the high rpms and it's pretty much a wash, maybe even
a loss.
>
> I for one really like that you can hold the tesla roadster 4 second
> motor in your hand. that makes it all the easier to put 4 of them in a
> car. we just have to break down some notions about what things should
> cost. ACP is even worse in that regard than cartel Otmar : ) 25000$ for
> a set is just ridiculous. batteries not included
What exactly are you basing this on? Just the fact that you don't like
the prices so you think they should be lower? Or do you think that people
shouldn't be paid for their work?
I assume from your comments that you think that Otmar should work for free
and charge less for the 'zilla that it costs him for the parts?
If this is your work ethic, then I'd like to hire you to build my new
garage/workshop. I'd be happy to pay you nothing and I'll even let YOU
pay for the materials. In fact, to sweeten the deal, if you pay for the
cost of materials for my workshop, I'll buy you a new 'zilla. What do you
say?
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nope. It's not possible for the list, as a group, to produce much of
anything. This is pretty much true of any large group.
Now pick and choose a few individuals, and you'd have no problem.
Assuming you could find someone to fund the effort.
> With the expertise that is on this list would it be possible for us as a
> group to produce a vehicle that is similar in performance to the TESLA?
> That is performance and range?
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello All,
I was just talking with some one about AC vs DC efficiency and the
fellow was saying DC is more efficient because you can keep the RPMs in
the sweet spot by shifting gears where as with an AC motor there is only
one sweet spot and you are often not at that spot. Also the AC
electronics are not as efficient as a DC controller. Some of this can
be made up by regenative breaking.
How true is this?
Peter
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--- Begin Message ---
Rarely have I seen such asskissing : )
do you think he will pat you on your head and say good dog?
As I said to him if it's such a burden for him, why the strong
resistance against letting others help.
It's one thing to want to keep design secrets but please don't pretend
it's out of idealism. because it isn't and only compounds it with lies
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Man I have got to pay more attention to the EVDL.
Otmar is getting rich building 'zillas? Way to go dude, how the heck did
you manage that?
What with the high cost of materials used and large ammount of labor
required for each one, I always figured that you were making less per hour
than I am, and I'm certainly not getting rich (though some silly high
school kid might think so since I make more than the average McDonald's
employee)
I've got to admit, I'm still confused at how you can sell your hand built
'zillas at 1/4 the price per watt of the mass produced Curtis controllers
and still make a profit. Now I hear that not only are you managing to
make a profit, but you're getting rich.
Since a man with your skills could make way more with a converntional job,
I always figured you were building controllers because you loved EVs.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: Tesla roadster motor philosophy
<snip>
> I for one really like that you can hold the tesla roadster 4 second
> motor in your hand. that makes it all the easier to put 4 of them in a
> car. we just have to break down some notions about what things should
> cost. ACP is even worse in that regard than cartel Otmar : ) 25000$ for
<snip>
>
What is going on with this thread? Tesla's blog says that their
motor weighs 70 lbs and that while a strong man might carry it in
a back pack, they don't recommend it. This is quite different from
saying that you could hold it in your hand. Has this thread become
one large methane generating pit?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nope. It's not possible for the list, as a group, to produce much of
anything. This is pretty much true of any large group.
LOL :)
With the expertise that is on this list would it be possible for
us as a
group to produce a vehicle that is similar in performance to the
TESLA?
That is performance and range?
There is a pretty heated discussion on ac vs. dc at the moment.
Watching that thread I'm sure John W could make you one for cheap...
oops forgot about the range :^}
No offense,
Tehben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It started out that way. Consider the source, who's idea of how the EV market
should be run borders on socialistic. Tesla's motor "philosophy" is prbably
based on free market economics and its decision to use AC motors was more a
decision of marketability to their target audience. If Tesla was building
dragsters they would most likely be DC machines. But what do I know, this is
all to philosophical to me.
> Dave wrote:
>
> What is going on with this thread? Tesla's blog says that their
> motor weighs 70 lbs and that while a strong man might carry it in
> a back pack, they don't recommend it. This is quite different from
> saying that you could hold it in your hand. Has this thread become
> one large methane generating pit?
>
>
> > Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> >
> > I for one really like that you can hold the tesla roadster 4 second
> > motor in your hand. that makes it all the easier to put 4 of them in a
> > car. we just have to break down some notions about what things should
> > cost. ACP is even worse in that regard than cartel Otmar : ) 25000$ for
> <snip>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, Dan, if you can do a better job than Otmar at
creating high quality controls that withstand the
abuse of John Wayland and Bill Dube have at it!!!
He's not making big bucks doing controls based on my
experience in creating them in the commercial market.
Thankfully he is doing this for his commitment to the
EV market. Looking at your previous posts I realize
you don't have experience in how much it costs to make
a control like Otmar offers. If you have something to
offer I would say 'bring it on' referencing our C'mdr
in chief that has little to bring on!
Rod
--- Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Rarely have I seen such asskissing : )
> do you think he will pat you on your head and say
> good dog?
>
> As I said to him if it's such a burden for him, why
> the strong
> resistance against letting others help.
> It's one thing to want to keep design secrets but
> please don't pretend
> it's out of idealism. because it isn't and only
> compounds it with lies
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > Man I have got to pay more attention to the EVDL.
> >
> > Otmar is getting rich building 'zillas? Way to go
> dude, how the heck did
> > you manage that?
> > What with the high cost of materials used and
> large ammount of labor
> > required for each one, I always figured that you
> were making less per hour
> > than I am, and I'm certainly not getting rich
> (though some silly high
> > school kid might think so since I make more than
> the average McDonald's
> > employee)
> >
> > I've got to admit, I'm still confused at how you
> can sell your hand built
> > 'zillas at 1/4 the price per watt of the mass
> produced Curtis controllers
> > and still make a profit. Now I hear that not only
> are you managing to
> > make a profit, but you're getting rich.
> >
> > Since a man with your skills could make way more
> with a converntional job,
> > I always figured you were building controllers
> because you loved EVs.
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Man I have got to pay more attention to the EVDL.
>
> Otmar is getting rich building 'zillas? Way to go
> dude, how the heck did
> you manage that?
Hey Peter all
At the risk of being accused an ass kisser and or
upgraded from evil twin to full blown list troll 8^o
I'd like to add some thoughts that I tend to keep
private.
I'll start saying that having just spent time with Oat
he's about as nice a guy as is out there! So if
nothing else it hurts to hear others talking about him
like some tabloid magazine! No wonder he doesn't
"make" time to contribute here at the EVDL any longer.
In general (if I can be butally honest here) EV'ers
can be a real thankless lot! Being the big billion
dollar companies haven't yet stepped up we all plod
along building home brewed convertions (at least the
rich do as I can not afford to build one yet myself
8^o I do not begrudge them for being able to though!
Now people like Otmar and Rich Rudman, Victor and
others stepped up and at great risk I'm sure founded
companies targeting the EV niche. If they become rich
and successful, AWESOME! Far better than the others
who came, did good things, and failed don't you think?
Please don't begrudge a fellow EVer for making a
living while providing a very useful products. As for
me, when I hear it, it sickens my heart!
I've been around long enough to know there are doer's
and there are talkers. I ask what do you all "do" to
promote EV's? DO you drive one? do you attend
meetings and EVent? do you talk to your neighbor (and
little old ladies walking down the street) about EV's?
Or do you bitch and whine how GM, bid oil, and now
maybe EVen Otmar, Rich, and Victor, (me?) screw you
out of your perfect EV by laughing our way to the bank
from oil company sized profits? LMAO!
It seems that EV'rs are a passionant lot, it's why we
are EVer's it's in the blood. This is mostly a good
thing but sometimes gets in the way of helping our
cause with time spent bickering over trivial details
stalling our progress.
Anyway thats my two rants worth. It is a simple
question though, are you a doer or are you waiting for
others to do it first? If the later don't bitch if
they make a buck.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
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--- Begin Message ---
Uh huh, at less than 1 cent per watt it's a miracle Otmar is still in
business. I work for a company that doesn't produce anything for less
than $2.50 per watt, and we're frequently charging $5-$10 per watt.
Only computer power supplies get close to what Ot is charging and
they're produced in millions.
If Otmar is getting rich on top of this he is a financial genius and
deserves every penny.
Isn't it time we kick this Dan troll?
On 6/9/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Rarely have I seen such asskissing : )
do you think he will pat you on your head and say good dog?
As I said to him if it's such a burden for him, why the strong
resistance against letting others help.
It's one thing to want to keep design secrets but please don't pretend
it's out of idealism. because it isn't and only compounds it with lies
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Man I have got to pay more attention to the EVDL.
>
> Otmar is getting rich building 'zillas? Way to go dude, how the heck did
> you manage that?
> What with the high cost of materials used and large ammount of labor
> required for each one, I always figured that you were making less per hour
> than I am, and I'm certainly not getting rich (though some silly high
> school kid might think so since I make more than the average McDonald's
> employee)
>
> I've got to admit, I'm still confused at how you can sell your hand built
> 'zillas at 1/4 the price per watt of the mass produced Curtis controllers
> and still make a profit. Now I hear that not only are you managing to
> make a profit, but you're getting rich.
>
> Since a man with your skills could make way more with a converntional job,
> I always figured you were building controllers because you loved EVs.
>
--
www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After being rained out at PODC and having a wheel hub problem on
Wednesday night, the Orange Juice racing team was anxious to get to the
track Friday night to find out just what this car would do with it's
new Lmc brush timing and Deka AGM batteries. Severe storms cancelled
our Friday run but we snuck out to the newly reopened Quaker City
Raceway in Salem, Oh today and managed to get in three runs within
three hrs. Traction was no problem today. The hot sun and well
manicured surface instantly cured our "up in smoke" ills. In fact we
had so much traction we couldn't keep the front end on the ground until
after 100+ ft. Second time driver Eric Stanislaw did an awesome job at
manhandling the torque and was rewarded on the third run with a 10.41
at 127 MPH. Not bad for 240 volts of AGM. He had to lift only once on
the third run to bring it back down, which was much better than his
first two ( 10.72 @ 123 and 10.57 @ 125). We were contemplating one
more run, cranking it up and just letting the front end do what it
wanted but we decided to end on a good note. The run for single digits
on 240 volts is going to be soooooo close. I think a trip back to
Mason Dixon and the hot Maryland sun may be in order. It would be
great to hit the 9's in Chip's backyard. Funny, all it took to get OJ
off her lazy rear end was to pay a little attention to a bike named
AGNS.
Shawn
________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter Eckhoff wrote:
Hello All,
I was just talking with some one about AC vs DC efficiency and the
fellow was saying DC is more efficient because you can keep the RPMs in
the sweet spot by shifting gears where as with an AC motor there is only
one sweet spot and you are often not at that spot. Also the AC
electronics are not as efficient as a DC controller. Some of this can
be made up by regenative breaking.
How true is this?
It isn't.
Peter
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wonderful speech Jim! You are fine man. My hat's off.
Victor
Jim Husted wrote:
Hey Peter all
At the risk of being accused an ass kisser and or
upgraded from evil twin to full blown list troll 8^o
I'd like to add some thoughts that I tend to keep
private.
I'll start saying that having just spent time with Oat
he's about as nice a guy as is out there! So if
nothing else it hurts to hear others talking about him
like some tabloid magazine! No wonder he doesn't
"make" time to contribute here at the EVDL any longer.
In general (if I can be butally honest here) EV'ers
can be a real thankless lot! Being the big billion
dollar companies haven't yet stepped up we all plod
along building home brewed convertions (at least the
rich do as I can not afford to build one yet myself
8^o I do not begrudge them for being able to though!
Now people like Otmar and Rich Rudman, Victor and
others stepped up and at great risk I'm sure founded
companies targeting the EV niche. If they become rich
and successful, AWESOME! Far better than the others
who came, did good things, and failed don't you think?
Please don't begrudge a fellow EVer for making a
living while providing a very useful products. As for
me, when I hear it, it sickens my heart!
I've been around long enough to know there are doer's
and there are talkers. I ask what do you all "do" to
promote EV's? DO you drive one? do you attend
meetings and EVent? do you talk to your neighbor (and
little old ladies walking down the street) about EV's?
Or do you bitch and whine how GM, bid oil, and now
maybe EVen Otmar, Rich, and Victor, (me?) screw you
out of your perfect EV by laughing our way to the bank
from oil company sized profits? LMAO!
It seems that EV'rs are a passionant lot, it's why we
are EVer's it's in the blood. This is mostly a good
thing but sometimes gets in the way of helping our
cause with time spent bickering over trivial details
stalling our progress.
Anyway thats my two rants worth. It is a simple
question though, are you a doer or are you waiting for
others to do it first? If the later don't bitch if
they make a buck.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing.
http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php
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