--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the good advice. I called the fella with the lift before they took
out the motors. He was kinda reluctant to sell me the lift. I don't know if
there was salvage stuff he wanted or not, i was just tryng to save him some
time in doing the scrapping myself. I did learn that at 7 cents a lb for scrap
metal, this lift is worth 500$. So I didn't push for the lift. Sounds like the
motors are the only things really worth saving anyway.
Now, I haven't gotten the motors yet (he said call tomorrow) but at this point
im assuming they are series DC hopefully with a keyed shaft. Thats sounds
wishful though, most likely they have some kind of spline or helical cone gear
right? Can I have that machined down?
Also, after looking at other setups with twin motors I think the whole
side-by-side coupling is alot of trouble. I mean using a belt and toothed
pulleys are the best way to go it would seem abut its a far cry from just
bolting the motor to your clutch. And I have though about the independent rear
as a possible direct drive solution. Thats is my main question. Can I use both
motors direct drive at the rear wheels. Will there be enough torque? Im
guessing I deffinetely need a reduction gear. Any ideas on this. I want to keep
things simple without alot of elaborate fabrcating if I can help it.
Thanks,
Paul
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C7AC36.08AAE3E4"
Subject: RE: Twin Motors, forklifts and drive belts?
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:37:27 -0400
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Thread-Topic: Twin Motors, forklifts and drive belts?
thread-index: AcepVIjbTjCAdjLESEmImaN7tUAE4gAcaKEEAA7nonAAjMrRfA==
References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "childreypa--
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 07:46:38 -0700
From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: AC/DC thing
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hello to All,
Sometimes it might be hard to tell that Victor and I are friends...but
we are :-)
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> A 350 kW AC drive of course will become better for John
> if he receives it as a gift or 100% sponsored...
> Let's leave it at that and kill the thread shall we?
No, let's not leave it as this! Victor, perhaps unintentionally, with
the above you have just insinuated that I only do things if parts are
given to me free. This is misinformation, and misinformation gone
unchallenged, becomes fact. Time for a correction.
Let's review:
Original pair of 8 inch motors in White Zombie...bought and paid for by
me with years of sweat equity through my past NetGain association.
Though initially paid a minor consulting fee, once I teamed up with them
I put several years into that project, made several trips back east,
helped build the original NetGain dragster, educated them and Warfield
Electric about how to build a quality EV drive motor (even hand picked
com parts, brushes, field coils, frame parts, etc.) which helped launch
the Warp series motor line...that many on this list now enjoy as the
traction unit for their conversions. I didn't walk away with loads of
cash earned (ROTL), but I did get two motors as my severance pay :-) How
much is two years of my time worth? I think if you tallied up my donated
labor it would would come to a lot more than the price of two motors. I
remain good friends with all I was associated with, so I'm not
complaining here.
Hot rod electric motor design and construction...Jim Husted does all his
labor for free. He's part of the Plasma Boy racing crew, and very, very
much appreciated. On the other hand, I've helped put him on the EV map,
and his business has grown to where it now includes custom motor work
for the EV scene. I also solidified his relationship with the company I
work for, by lobbying for them to use Jim as our electric motor
rebuilder of choice when Jim first struck it out on his own. I'm sure
Jim would tell you he doesn't feel taken advantage of. Tim Brehm too,
works for free as a huge part of the Plasma Boy racing crew, but getting
to be the Zombie driver? Priceless!
Zilla Z2K controller...though deeply discounted through generous
sponsorship from my longtime friend Otmar, still a good sum of money was
paid out in cash by me. I've got more dollars stashed away for a second
Z2K, too. As Otmar has just written about (see Richard Rau's post), I've
been more than just a little involved in the early development and PR
areas of the Zilla line. How many of you purchased your Zilla because of
what I have written about them over the years, raise your hands?
PFC charging equipment...again, I'm very grateful for sponsorship from
longtime friend Rich Rudman and his company Manzanita Micro, but the
chargers have always been paid for in cash by me, yes, deeply
discounted, yes, a lot of trading and bartering along the way,too, but
he gets a lot of his orders in from folks who have read what I've
written about his great products. How many have purchased their PFC
chargers because of what I have written about them over the years, raise
your hands?
Batteries...yes, 100% sponsored through friend Dick Brown by Enersys, to
which I am very grateful (as should all fans of EVs be).
However, there are hundreds of hours of my 'free' labor in writing
reports, wooing and successfully garnering magazine attention, newspaper
attention, talk radio attention, podcast attention, car show circuit
attention...the list can go on, and on. I've always established world
records in their name (as promised) to help bolster battery sales. The
amount of R&D that has gone into White Zombie over the past 13 years
amounts to a lot of time... one battery company has actually changed the
internal battery construction of a model, after examining the carnage I
had sent back to them. Though the batteries are free, with each change
in battery pack design, it costs me about $500 or so with all the new
materials I have to pay for.
Cabling and connectors...Yes, generous help from many, with lots of free
stuff here and there, but trust me, with every re-engineering of the car
(often three times in one year) hundreds of dollars get spent on new
connectors, contactors, etc. It's very common for me to spend $300 on a
day-before-the-race thing where I find I'm out of stuff needed to get
the car going.
Drivetrain...Yes, Dutchman Motorsports has been very generous in
sponsorship, but not too much of it, has been free. The Dutchman
himself, along with Tim Brehm and Jim Husted, spent too many hours to
add up late nights working on the custom shaft that helped create the
Siamese 8, but I paid for the material costs. The racing rear axle setup
that has proven to be so tough and rugged, was discounted, but let me
tell everyone, I still wrote a pretty good sized check for it. Other
checks have been written for brakes, an aluminum third member casting,
and multiple changes of gear ratio required more cash spent for gears
and re-setup fees.
Metal fab work...Yes, the labor and design from longtime friend Marko
Mongillo is free, but all materials are paid for by me, and they really
add up in cost. Ever price sheets of Lexan? Sheets of aluminum? Sheets
of stainless steel? I return the favor by sending countless paying EV
customers to Marko where he gets paid to make beautiful metalwork for
some of the nicest and cleanest conversions around.
Victor, you have had Marko make stuff for you, because of me.
I could go on, because this comment really lit my fuse. I pay out quite
a bit of money each year to keep White Zombie pushing the envelope,
whether in parts, trip costs, or fees here and there for all the shows
we are a part of. I do not need to have an AC power train 'given for
free' to me in order for me to use one. Telling the whole EV list that's
what it would take was incorrect. All it would take, is for an AC system
in the 300-350kw range to be available for the same price range as the ~
$10,000 price tag of a Z2K and Siamese 8 combo (including cables,
contactors, etc.), and I'd jump ship in a heartbeat and start going
quicker through the 1/4 mile. Got one for me?...I'll buy it right
now....didn't think so!! No. I wouldn't pay $20,000 (my guess, is that
it might cost as much as $30,000) for one because that would not be a
wise way to spend my racing dollars, especially when what I'm using
right now is still being improved, still setting new records, and still
making it hard for AC to establish itself as a reasonable alternative at
the drag track.
Since Otmar must be rich, I think he should work 6 months for free
designing my proposed Tri-Zilla HO inverter based on three Zilla Z2Ks,
then give it to me free. I also think Jim Husted should hand-build me a
mondo AC motor to mate to it...for free. While we're at it, I think A123
should cough-up a couple thousand cells for me to power it all with, and
Dube's BMS crew should also work for free and set me up with what I need
to keep the pack happy.
See Ya.....John Wayland
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:45:14 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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The problem here is a failure to communicate, or more specifically, a
failure to pay attention. With that observation, I am not very
confident that the following will be very effective, but, I will give
it a try.
Part of my professional duties is to design and build power supplies.
If I gave you a schematic of my power supply and you built it, the
chances of it having the same performance and reliability is near zero.
This is because the design is also physical. If you want the same
performance and reliability it has to be the same â schematically and
physically. Component lead length, lead shape, PCB trace width,
thickness, shape, spacing, even PCB material and thickness, component
proximity, just to name a few are all important in a design. You canât
get that from just a picture.
Knowing which transistors are used in the Zilla is not that much of a
benefit. I am certain that Otmar does not have a semiconductor fab in
his shop so I am quite confident he is using off the shelf transistors.
You can go to Digikey.com and do a parametric search and find
transistors that will do what ever your design calls for. Knowing the
transistor part numbers used in the Zilla will not get you very far in
your quest to duplicate it.
The bottom line here is that it is not that simple. Seeing a picture,
even if you had the schematic of a Zilla, doesnât provide the means to
duplicate it.
When Otmar âreverse engineeredâ the Curtis controllers, he did not do
it by getting the pictures, schematic and / or parts list from Curtis.
That would not really have helped that much anyway. He learned how to
design the Zilla by testing Curtis controllers he had in hand and found
what conditions caused what failures. Generating a schematic by
reverse engineering a product is not to unlock the âsecretsâ of another
product. It is done as a process of examining a failure or anomaly in
its operation. Starting with a factory schematic will not help in that
regard.
Obviously, I canât speak for Otmar, but I donât think he is actively
keeping his products in tight secret. The enclosure is not sealed. It
can be opened with a simple screw driver. It just doesnât matter if
Otmar is nice or mean or what ever you want to call him, what you are
asking for wonât provide the results you say you are seeking.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 5:35 pm
Subject: Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
Jim Husted wrote:Â
> I'll start saying that having just spent time with OatÂ
> he's about as nice a guy as is out there!Â
If he is so nice howcome he strongly refuses to show even a superficial
picture of the innards of a controller when asked when he has alread
shown it off on national tv.Â
If he is so nice howcome he won't answer which transistors he uses so
others could benefit from his experience and help promote EVs.Â
If he is such a martyr making no money howcome he is so against telling
the cost of the parts so we can see the sacrifice he makes for us all.Â
Â
I do computer graphics for a living and if someone asks me how is this
done I tell them without reservation and with the intent of optimal
communication for their benefit. And last I checked the world wasn't
dying because of lack of exposure of computer graphics.Â
Â
The zilla is an interesting example of what can be done but please
don't pretend that everything he does and says is golden. That sickens
me Jim when big things are on the line here. The pettyness of this
community has surprised me. I had assumed that anyone into EVs were in
it for the idealistim since it is obviously easier to use gas cars but
that certainly wasn't the case. There is a small army of Otmar
asskissers here willing to deeply irrationally defend Otmar from any
criticism. how dare I. as if he was a god. This is not about Otmar
people.Â
For me it's about how to change this world from a combustion base into
EV based and Otmar is far from 'nice' in this respect. get your
priorities straight peopleÂ
Â
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
=0
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 07:45:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Any disadvantage to 1 big blade? (mower)
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I recently came across a 26" yazoo mower which I could
use as an updgrade to my 22" mower, though I'd
probably need to use a bigger motor compared to the
22" one. The yazoo has nice 20" rear wheels and is
pretty heavy duty compared to my 22" old sears mower
which is straining under the weight of a couple
batteries.
The question I have is the yazoo uses one 26" blade
and I'm wondering how much power I'm going to lose
turning one blade vrs say two smaller blades? When I
look at those robotic mowers they use 3 tiny blades
and I wonder if that helps them last longer on a
charge then 1 larger blade.
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:48:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Troll Removal Survey
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
FYI, it's the policy of the EVDL admin crew (such as it is ;-) to use the
morning star and mace rather sparingly. In my memory only two (or maybe
three) people have ever been shown the door, and I've been here for about 13
years.
Kudos to Otmar for handling this situation in a thoughtful manner. He's 100%
spot on : the best way to handle a person who's behaving in an anti-social
manner on a mailing list or newsgroup is to ignore him or her. Set up your
filter so the person's mail goes right to the bit bucket, or just automatically
delete every message unread.
An advantage of this format is that email filters make trolls much easier to
ignore than the jerks at the office. ;-)
David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/
Subject: Re: Chevy motor adapters
From: Steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Content-Type: text/plain
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:45:21 -0600
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hi,
> I don't know if I buy that. If all the 1986 and later motors are
> externally balanced by the flywheel because the counterweight was
> removed from the crank, that means all the aftermarket flywheels
> for 1986 and later engines are out of balance, so we can't use them
> without a lot of extra work. One of the reasons I'd think we want
> to do this is because of the variety of balanced low inertia
> flywheels that are out there.
I came to this same conclusion last nite, the 3" hub (used on externally
balanced engines) wont work as it indeed expects to mount an
unbalanced (by itself) flywheel. You can get racing flywheels in
the 3"/neutral balance configuration, but they tend to be pricy.
This one goes for $600 at summit racing:
Brand:
Centerforce
Product Line:
Centerforce Aluminum Flywheels
Part Type:
Flywheels
Ring Gear Tooth Quantity:
168-tooth
Rear Main Seal Style:
1-piece
Flywheel Material:
Aluminum
Maximum Disc Diameter (in):
12.000 in.
Engine Balance:
Internal
Balance Style:
Neutral
Weight:
13.1 lbs.
Replaceable Friction Surface:
Yes
Safety Rating:
SFI 1.1
Quantity:
Sold individually.
Flywheel, Aluminum, 168-Tooth, 13.1 lb., Internal Engine Balance, Chevy,
5.7L, LS1, Each
For the record, machining errors of the adaptor plate can possibly
be fixed with these offset dowel pins:
http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?N=700+303565+115+4294908216
> I've got to look at a Chevy pilot bushing installed again. I'm
> visualizing a pilot bushing set a whole lot deaper into the flywheel
> than that one is. If I'm visualizing a taper lock hub realistically
> (I've never seen one), I'm hoping the pilot bushing can fit between
There is a so-so picture of one at:
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/adaptors.shtml
> the taper lock retaining screws. Maybe even into the motor shaft
> (except that my motor shaft would need to be bored to hold the
> bushing).
The seimens motor I hope to use has a rather long shaft, with only
the front 1/3 splined. I am thinking I could cut off that 1/3 and
use a taperlock instead of the spline/retainer bolt mount:
http://www.metricmind.com/images/5135shaft.jpg
---
Steve
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 17:53:32 +0300
From: "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Tesla roadster motor philsophy plain text
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 6/11/07, John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> I find the following comments interesting, because as with most everyone
> else's pro-AC comments, it gives large credit to the AC drive for a
> vehicle's longer than average range, when in fact, it had very little to
> do with it.
There is one real world data point in going from DC to AC in the same
vehicle, with the same batteries. G-Wiz ( Reva ) did an AC upgrade (
or downgrade, depending on your point of view ) late last year. Here
are the user test drive reports:
http://gwiz.myfastforum.org/ftopic333-0.php
They mostly report better hill climbing ability, a bit better
acceleration and increased top speed.
Of course, there are no details on whether they went to bigger motor,
and actually no first-hand data on whether the range suffered or not.
They changed gear ratios however, and AC motor is running at nearly
twice the RPM, as seen from this comparison chart:
http://www.goingreen.co.uk/store/content/gwiz_techspec/
They claim longer range for AC version ( in city traffic, probably due
to regen )
The AC version G-wiz price is about £1000 higher, which of course does
not mean that it _costs_ that much more to produce. With the limited
supply in EV market, they can ask for whatever price they like for the
delivered goods, even if production costs are actually lower.
For the record, current G-Wiz run on lead-acid, with lithium upgrade
promised "sometime later this year"
just my $0.02
-kert
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
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charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: Chevy motor adapters
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:54:21 -0400
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Why would you want a racing flywheel? Just get a stock flywheel for a 1
piece rear main seal chevy. You can get a flywheel and clutch kit from
autozone for $150 easy. The only reason you would need a racing
flywheel is if you needed to pass a tech inspection for RACING. Those
flywheels are guaranteed not to fly apart at 8,000 or 9,000 rpm. For
the RPM the electric motor is turning (5500 rpm max) a stock flywheel is
perfectly fine. You can shave off the ring gear to cut down on the
weight if you want. Just pick a flywheel combo that bolts to a 350
chevy. That is neutral balanced. The standard clutch will be a 10
spline for chevy transmissions or 26 spline for a T56.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steve
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 10:45
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Chevy motor adapters
Hi,
> I don't know if I buy that. If all the 1986 and later motors are
> externally balanced by the flywheel because the counterweight was
> removed from the crank, that means all the aftermarket flywheels for
> 1986 and later engines are out of balance, so we can't use them
> without a lot of extra work. One of the reasons I'd think we want to
> do this is because of the variety of balanced low inertia flywheels
> that are out there.
I came to this same conclusion last nite, the 3" hub (used on externally
balanced engines) wont work as it indeed expects to mount an unbalanced
(by itself) flywheel. You can get racing flywheels in the 3"/neutral
balance configuration, but they tend to be pricy.
This one goes for $600 at summit racing:
Brand:
Centerforce
Product Line:
Centerforce Aluminum Flywheels
Part Type:
Flywheels
Ring Gear Tooth Quantity:
168-tooth
Rear Main Seal Style:
1-piece
Flywheel Material:
Aluminum
Maximum Disc Diameter (in):
12.000 in.
Engine Balance:
Internal
Balance Style:
Neutral
Weight:
13.1 lbs.
Replaceable Friction Surface:
Yes
Safety Rating:
SFI 1.1
Quantity:
Sold individually.
Flywheel, Aluminum, 168-Tooth, 13.1 lb., Internal Engine Balance, Chevy,
5.7L, LS1, Each
For the record, machining errors of the adaptor plate can possibly be
fixed with these offset dowel pins:
http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?N=700+303565+115+4294908216
> I've got to look at a Chevy pilot bushing installed again. I'm
> visualizing a pilot bushing set a whole lot deaper into the flywheel
> than that one is. If I'm visualizing a taper lock hub realistically
> (I've never seen one), I'm hoping the pilot bushing can fit between
There is a so-so picture of one at:
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/adaptors.shtml
> the taper lock retaining screws. Maybe even into the motor shaft
> (except that my motor shaft would need to be bored to hold the
> bushing).
The seimens motor I hope to use has a rather long shaft, with only the
front 1/3 splined. I am thinking I could cut off that 1/3 and use a
taperlock instead of the spline/retainer bolt mount:
http://www.metricmind.com/images/5135shaft.jpg
---
Steve
Subject: The EV cause, profit motive, the open source philosophy, and
personal choice
From: Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Content-Type: text/plain
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:06:25 -0500
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Mon, 2007-06-11 at 00:35 +0200, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> [salient snips]
> If he is so nice howcome he strongly refuses...
> If he is so nice howcome he won't answer...
> If he is such a martyr making no money howcome he is so against...
Dan, these might be good questions, except they've already been
answered.
The first of this spat that I saw (I don't know what exchanges or emails
to Zilla owners had gone on before that) was where you asked Otmar on
his blog what transistors he uses. He replied, "the good ones" -- a
smartass answer to be sure, but not at all deserving of your subsequent
response. I won't repeat the thread here again; those who are interested
can look for themselves.
I think there are 2 points that you are missing.
First, Otmar has made a choice. Despite what you'd like to believe, it's
a fairly common and valid choice even where idealistic and altruistic
issues surround the work being done. It may not be your choice. It is
also not mine. I am involved with a new EV-related business as well
(more on that later) and it is important to me that our operations are
as transparent as possible, with designs and plans shared for the
community to see and improve upon. I believe in the open-source approach
because I've seen it work.
However, I've also seen the nastiness it's brought to this corner of the
software world, where some of those who have chosen "open-source" or
"free software" almost like someone might subscribe to a religion,
subsequently hold nothing but venom and bitterness toward those who have
not chosen the same path. What they, and you, have lost sight of is
that this is a Personal Choice. Otmar's choice may be different, but
just as your personal philosophies or religion might be different from
mine, this does not make such choices less valid or give us the right to
attack others for believing differently.
Otmar believes that he should apply some common business principles to
his operation. He Has That Right. He's spent a great deal of effort and
has operated the business at a loss for years to get where he is now. He
believes that by providing the controllers to the community he is doing
the right thing, and the market will decide if his prices are fair.
Considering his backlog despite the less expensive alternatives, I would
say that the indication at the moment is pretty clear. He makes the best
DC controllers in the world with nothing coming close in terms of
quality, and EVs using his controllers improve the image of EVs wherever
they're driven. I hope Otmar ends up very wealthy indeed for this
contribution, sitting on top of a high-performance EV component empire.
You might want to develop an open-source controller design (you're
certainly not the first hero to have come to our rescue with that idea)
-- but do it the right way. Don't insist that Otmar accept your
free-ideas philosophy when it comes to his intellectual property. If you
want to reverse engineer a controller as a part of your education, buy
one.
The second thing you're still missing for some reason is what's been
told to you here and on his blog, repeatedly. As Bill and others have
said, Otmar hasn't exactly been secretive about his designs. If you'd
remained cool with him instead of throwing accusations and epithets and
justifying yourself with an "I haven't educated myself or done any real
research but tell me all the answers so I can become your competitor"
strategy, you might have started a meaningful conversation. The point
here, is that you have an attitude problem. It's already won you
enemies here on an international scale, and I think it's likely to cause
you trouble elsewhere. I have had my own issues with this in my life; my
sometimes hotheaded attitude has lost me opportunities and friends, and
the introspection to realize the real source of the problem is difficult
and uncomfortable, but I think it's something you need to spend some
time on, too.
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
From: "David S" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: RE: Tesla roadster motor philsophy plain text
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:10:34 -0500
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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charset="us-ascii"
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If most of that trip 245 mile trip was on highway miles how much did the
regen actually help?
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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 2:31 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Tesla roadster motor philsophy plain text
As Victor pointed out. Focusing on 1/4 mile times as a vehicles value over
looks why we have 300 million cars and trucks on the road. Today I was
considering a 120 mile EV round trip. I did not want to wait for 3 plus
hours of
charging to make it back.
Sure you can load in enough inexpensive lead batteries to do this with a DC
drive. How much fun would that non performance vehicle be to drive
everyday?
The many lead acid packs one would have to keep buying and installing would
not be what I call an added bonus.
The TZero or Tesla with an AC drive propose is not just an ET slip. Here
is
a link to a 245 mile trip with a claim of having at least another 40 miles
left. http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/SEMAtrip2003.htm When building a
vehicle that is enjoyable to drive, regen for increase distance and
reliability
are an important requirements. AC drives are already better values if you
use
these as your performance standards.
Don Blazer
1998 S-10 NiMH
John Wayland wrote
I do agree with Victor's statement. So Victor...where's that 350 kw AC
system for $8000 that I can replace my DC system with? You know, it's
the one installed in my steel bodied car that holds the world record for
the quickest 1/4 mile ET for a street legal car that still has doors on
it. This 2580 lb. DC car is more than a second quicker and nearly 17 mph
faster through the 1/4 mile (12.1 @ 106.5 mph) than the early version
highly touted $75,000 fiberglass kit car AC powered tZero with its 13.24
@ 90 mph ET when it had lead acid batteries and was 130 lbs. lighter
than WZ at 2450 lbs. Even when fitted with 700 lbs. of exotic lithium
batteries...vehicle now priced at over $100,000 and weighing just 1950
lbs. ... the tZero's beefed up 165 kw AC system still can't
out-accelerate my 2580 lb. Datsun with its DC system powered by lead acid.
See Ya.....John Wayland
************************************** See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.
Subject: Re: Motor Adapter plate
From: Steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
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Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 09:07:52 -0600
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Hi,
On Mon, 2007-06-11 at 00:28 -0700, Electric Vehicle Discussion List
wrote:
> Can't you just get a machine shop to make an adapter?
You can, but there are many issues:
If you start from scratch with a machine shop that has never done
this particular part before, they have to have access to the engine
with installed flywheel, as well as the transmission/bellhousing
to be able to take all the measurements necessary to build the
part. This "reverse-engineering" can become the larger part
of the cost quite quickly. Add to that shipping costs
for all those parts if the shop isn't local...
We each will be using different electric motors, so that end
of the adapter will be unique to each of us, so modularity
of design is important.
A "one-off" design done by a machine-shop cant take advantage
of the knowledge gained by a group of people designing
this part from the ground up, to be usable in a variety of
different motor setups.
> Can someone point me to where I can learn more about how
> exactly an
> adapter works and what parts there are to it.
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/adapter.htm
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/adaptors.shtml
---
Steve
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:19:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non EV Rewind info
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
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Mark,
Even though it is a stator, not rotating, the wires
may move with the magnetic forces, so it should be
"varnished". I'd suggest a polyester or expoxy reisn
made for this purpose. Dipped and baked. Maybe
twice. Some places will even vacuum impregnate to
suck the stuff up into the slots.
We did some work on oil cooled stators and found some
materials will desolve in the hot oil, some did not.
You might want to make a test batch before dipping the
real thing.
Supplier---EIS, Electrical Insulation Suppliers, Inc.,
Atlanta, GA, 404-355-1651
Sorry, I don't remember the product name we went with.
Jeff
--- Mark Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> All:
>
> I'm about halfway through a stator rewind for a
> Suzuki bike.
>
> There are NO motor rewind shops in the Wash DC area
> that will talk to me.
>
> I've found a source for magnet wire, and rewound the
> stator, but I'm
> wondering about how necessary the epoxy overcoating
> is, since it's pretty
> hard to find the real stuff. McMaster Carr sells an
> official 3M epoxy for
> $32/2oz!
>
> A: Since it's a stator, and doesn't rotate, do I
> need to epoxy or varnish
> the windings at all? I thought the varnish/epoxy
> coat served to strengthen
> the windings on aan armature, and allow it to reach
> higher RPM.
>
> B: Might the epoxy/varnish help in cooling the
> turns? The stator is in an
> oil bath (THAT was a surprise when I took off the
> cover!) and is probably
> getting fairly good cooling (well, 240 deg. F
> anyway).
>
> C: If I do need to coat the turns, would plain old
> varnish work? I've cooked
> a test coil at 300 F for four hours and it didn't
> char, though the stator
> would probably get hotter than that.
>
> Thanks for your time.
>
> Mark
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Dont miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other
> great prizes from Microsoft
> Office Live
>
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>
>
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Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Tesla roadster motor philsophy/E-box
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:19:56 -0700
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
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I drove the AC Propulsion E- Box (Scion XB) recently with three
passengers up hill in San Francisco and I can say the car is PLENTY
powerful, in fact wide open the front tires started to break loose at
30 (trans locked into one gear permanently) There is a small slider
on the dash to control the regen and I had it on full which would
bring the car to an impressive stop with the full load of passengers
(3600 lbs approx) on a steep hill, and even with a small lead pack in
the car I can't see how it would not have better range in SF based on
the regen alone. Yes- you can coast at times but in this city if you
drive around there is much hard stop and go that can't be avoided. So
as a city car with even a 30 mile range I would guess you could pull
an easy extra 5-6 miles from regen alone. As a percentage that seems
significant to me.
I remember that they hand build their system and they are looking to
mass produce it, Inverter, 100A DC/DC, Motor, Charger, all for about
12K. Not bad for the performance, weight and features. The brakes on
my last Toyota in the city lasted 12K miles due to our hills... But
of course I will be using a 9" DC due to cost and the Siemens systems
won't fit and are a bit under powered.
M
On Jun 11, 2007, at 7:53 AM, Kaido Kert wrote:
> On 6/11/07, John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hello to All,
>>
>> I find the following comments interesting, because as with most
>> everyone
>> else's pro-AC comments, it gives large credit to the AC drive for a
>> vehicle's longer than average range, when in fact, it had very
>> little to
>> do with it.
>
> There is one real world data point in going from DC to AC in the same
> vehicle, with the same batteries. G-Wiz ( Reva ) did an AC upgrade (
> or downgrade, depending on your point of view ) late last year. Here
> are the user test drive reports:
> http://gwiz.myfastforum.org/ftopic333-0.php
> They mostly report better hill climbing ability, a bit better
> acceleration and increased top speed.
> Of course, there are no details on whether they went to bigger motor,
> and actually no first-hand data on whether the range suffered or not.
> They changed gear ratios however, and AC motor is running at nearly
> twice the RPM, as seen from this comparison chart:
> http://www.goingreen.co.uk/store/content/gwiz_techspec/
> They claim longer range for AC version ( in city traffic, probably due
> to regen )
>
> The AC version G-wiz price is about £1000 higher, which of course does
> not mean that it _costs_ that much more to produce. With the limited
> supply in EV market, they can ask for whatever price they like for the
> delivered goods, even if production costs are actually lower.
>
> For the record, current G-Wiz run on lead-acid, with lithium upgrade
> promised "sometime later this year"
>
> just my $0.02
> -kert
>
>
From: Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: New Zillch Controller
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 07:37:14 -0700 (PDT)
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Chip Gribben writes:
>
> I'm new to EVs. My name is Dan Crankenstein.
Chip,
Have you ever heard the saying "Don't feed the trolls"? You just dumped
troll growth hormone onto the EVDL...
Ralph
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 17:21:30 +0200
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
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Jim Husted wrote:
> A very wise man once coined the phrase friends are
> friends and business is business!
I don't agree. If you are only nice when it suits you then you are not nice.
We are getting out in some value debates of which the ultimate is well
beyond most here. You brought it up but I will be blamed for it.
The rest of your points are similar, trying to mix good and bad. That
you do things out of idealism is good. that you use the iniquity of
others to excuse iniquity is not. it's very simple; good is good, bad is
bad. saying 'I have to make good money because others do' is just an
excuse. I don't greatly mind people making good money but I certainly do
mind when they pretend their actions are out of idealism. and attack me
for pointing out the obvious.
Otmar is not an idealist first. he's a talented guy who made a good
product that costs too much for EVs to make any dent in the combustion
world. It's not Otmar's duty to save the world but don't pretend he is
trying his best. He's making a business first and any good that would
come as a result is a bonus. not the main goal.
I see a few here hinting at their agreement that the zillas are too
pricy for them to matter but too afraid to really stand up for it. we
can't ffs bow to fear of truth if we are going to make something happen!
I'm trying a little to learn EE so that I might be able to design an
open source controller that is so simple and inexpensive that 'everyone'
can make it both for themselves and in series production. preferably
with charger and 12v DCDC built in because we need those too in an EV.
so we can make somethings happen.
there are some on this list that have serious EE and controller building
experience, why aren't you guys doing this?
doing it russian style instead of nasa style. keep it simple stupid. and
cheap. and if machined nickel plated copper is very expensive do it some
other way.
and we don't actually need 2000amps to save the world. I know this comes
as a shock to some people. my still tentative EE knowledge tell me far
less will make a great car if the voltage can be high enough to supply
your typical dc motor up to 90mph.
one of the few details I have been able to pry out of Otmar (and it's
still not about him, he's just made a product we can learn from) is that
the transistors in a zilla1k cost him around 160$ and we don't need 1000
amps. there is also caps etc but what if (perhaps with the help of some
EEs here) we could hash out a 300V 500A highway capable controller diy
plan for less than 500$ worth of parts? maybe even much less. how many
would be more inclined to put that together as a fun project than pay
2550$ just for one part among several needed to make en EV. people could
even make more than one and sell them...
the same with the DCDC and charger. even bms eventually. heck someone
might do something similar on the motor side.
some of you could hash out a first working prototype in a few hours if
I'm not mistaken. is that not worth doing?
some of you have built more than one controller for industrial projects.
imagine if someone took that design and foxconned it. is the potential
not worth a few hours of your time?
-Dan
> As I can only
> relate things from my own experiences (as we all do) I
> thought I'd throw a little more bread.
>
> As for me I really try to be an open book sharing what
> has taken me decades to learn. Do you think this
> helps me personally? I'd hope not! It does to a
> certain extent in that it shows I do quality work and
> know what I'm doing. After that though it becomes
> better for the world but worse for me personally!
> Pretty easy to follow 2 minus 2 is zero, ya with me?
>
> As someone who runs a small shop and who "chooses" to
> be open about it, as I am someone who feels the good
> of the many out weight the good of the one or the few.
> I will tell you that bill collectors don't give a rats
> ass when you tell them you're trying to save the
> world! Believe me I've tried!
>
> Is it greedy of me to want a good living style? Is it
> okay that I may keep things to myself so that I can
> prosper and properly provide for my family?
> Sorry to be the one to tell you this but the world is
> a "why buy the cow when the milk is free" kinda place!
>
> Now I'd like to point to the question "why are there
> so many Otmar ass kissers as you state. The reason is
> he's proven himself someone committed to quatlity
> products and someone who is extreemly committed to
> speading EV awareness. Not to mention him being one
> of the EV pioniers who's back we stand on right now!
> It's called respect 8^)
>
> We are all self serving it's a fact, even mother
> Teresa got some reward from helping others that filled
> her inside. I make big sacrifices to the EV community
> but I reap huge rewards in helping change the world
> but that is my choice! Believe me the wife wants me
> to raise prices, LMAO!
>
> Anyway I guess I'd like to say, be patient the world
> is changing but it doesn't happen over night! The
> glass isn't half empty it's half full and filling as
> we speak. And lastly to judge as you'd like to be
> judged 8^) On this last one I'd be careful as there
> are about a thousand people with rocks in their hands
> and from what I can tell, they are looking at a glass
> house right now 8^o
>
> Hopefully this is well received 8^)
>
> I see Roy put up a do not feed sign, so this will do
> it for me as I don't want to take any chances 8^o
> I kind of like it here 8^)
>
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Got a little couch potato?
> Check out fun summer activities for kids.
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>
>
>
>
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