EV Digest 6870
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Two - now - AC and DC breakers
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV Terminology
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Two
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Two
by "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Chevy motor adapters
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Two
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Safety of inverter/controller or whole system?
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV count
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: New Zillch Controller
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV count
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Solectria S10 at Roanoke's Virginia Museum of Transportation
by Robert MacDowell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Series/parallel motor clarification
by dale henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Educating Dan. Was:Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting
rich?
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) series parallel batteries
by dale henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Corded mower
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV Terminology
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: full size truck conversion
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV count CT heard From. WARNING, CT DMV is anti-EV!
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Tesla roadster motor philsophy AC vs. DC
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Somewhat off topic, but interesting... My uncle worked in power
distribution, as in utility stuff. The switches and breakers they sold to
open the big grid circuits had explosive charges in them. If you really
needed to open the circuit, you blew the contacts open (which I think also
blew out the arc). Then you dispatched a guy to replace the charges and the
contacts at considerable expense. I guess the point is, things act
differently and get expensive as power levels go up, especially in DC.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: Two - now - AC and DC breakers
From: "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Two
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 16:04:34 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Well what I learned is school is that 1000 watts is a 1000 watts AC or DC
Mitchell
That's true, Mitchell,
But, that doesn't mean you can safely use a house circuit breaker (
designed to interrupt AC, not DC) in the battery loop of your EV.
AC switches and circuit breakers take advantage of the moments of zero
current as the AC current changes direction. This allows these devices to
stop the current without excessive arcing.
With DC current, there is no momentary zero current flow. So, the arc
can continue until the contacts are far enough apart to extinguish the
arc. Some relays and contactors designed for DC use magnets to deflect
the arc, and make it's effective path longer.
An AC-designed relay, switch, or contactor, may not be able to extinguish
the arc. It could continue until the device melts down - not a safe
result.
Phil
Phil
-------Original Message-------
From: Brandon Kruger
Date: 6/11/2007 3:56:54 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Two
I thought AC and DC circuit breakers worked differently. A 100amp
House circuit breaker may not work well in your EV.
Brandon Kruger
http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/
http://cafepress.com/altfuel
_________________________________________________________________
Picture this - share your photos and you could win big!
http://www.GETREALPhotoContest.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Electrically recycled car
Electrically improved car
Electrically Restored car
Electromatic car
My car was delivered to Jet Industries direct from Ford without the IC
engine and it's associated components.
So it was 'finished electrically'.
IC car = global warmer.
John in Sylmar, CA
**************
Edward Ang wrote:
Just like they changed "global warming" to "climate change" to better
address and to increase the perceived importance of the problem, I
think we might do the same for "EV Conversion". They also use the
"Death Tax" instead of the "Estate Tax" make it sound bad.
May I propose the following changes:
EV Conversion -> Auto Electrification
Converting a car to electric -> Electrifying a car
Being converted to electric -> Being electrified
I don't know if this is a good idea. I just think that a "conversion"
hardly express the "electrifying" experience.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Damn right they do. A 100A DC breaker will probably still open at >100
amps, but the contacts will arc in blaze and the arc may not stop on its
own. DC current is much harder to interrupt. Note that this is
different from voltage insulaton requirements- insulating 1000VAC and
1000VDC is generally not too different, you just have to size for the
peak voltage of the AC waveform. But when you have current flowing and
try to separate the conductors, there is a substantial difference in how
they behave.
Danny
Brandon Kruger wrote:
I thought AC and DC circuit breakers worked differently. A 100amp
house circuit breaker may not work well in your EV.
Brandon Kruger
http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/
http://cafepress.com/altfuel
On 6/11/07, Phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Have you thought about using 100 amp house circuit breakers?
In a electrical box
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------
Hey,
Being that I am inexperenced but maybe with enough knowledge to finally
answer a question more on my level...
You can use switches to switch in batteries. They are called
contactors when
used for such high amps. Similar to relays but heavier duty. You should
arrange and wire the batteries in a series/ parallel arrangement so that
theyare all discharging at 24, 48 and 96 volts, or whatever voltage
you want
Older controllers were called contactor controllers. They mechanically
switched voltages, I imaging kinda like shifting gears. There is
information
on the EVDL pertaining to their construction. I could send you past
posts
Ive saved. I plan to make a controller using a Parallax microcontroller.
Programmed to energize different contactors remotely placed at the
batterry
pack depending on the position of my throttle potentiometer. (anyone
with
suggestions on this im open to suggestions).
I think a cheap controller can be had from a junked golf cart? Some club
cars have a pretty decent sized controller and maybe you can get it
cheap.
Otherwise I think you are gonna spend atleast 500 dollars.
Hope this helps.
Paul
________________________________
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Phelps
Sent: Mon 6/11/2007 2:28 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Two
Two simple questios..first..why use a controller.. Why not just 4 or
6 100
Amp switches that add one more battery with every flick??
--
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well then there must be a ratio that is equal in ac to dc.. Perhaps then a
100 amp ac breaker would work for 50 amps of D C ..
Mitchell
-------Original Message-------
From: Danny Miller
Date: 6/11/2007 5:35:40 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Two
Damn right they do. A 100A DC breaker will probably still open at >100
Amps, but the contacts will arc in blaze and the arc may not stop on its
Own. DC current is much harder to interrupt. Note that this is
Different from voltage insulaton requirements- insulating 1000VAC and
1000VDC is generally not too different, you just have to size for the
Peak voltage of the AC waveform. But when you have current flowing and
Try to separate the conductors, there is a substantial difference in how
They behave.
Danny
Brandon Kruger wrote:
> I thought AC and DC circuit breakers worked differently. A 100amp
> house circuit breaker may not work well in your EV.
>
>
> Brandon Kruger
> http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/
> http://cafepress.com/altfuel
>
> On 6/11/07, Phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Have you thought about using 100 amp house circuit breakers?
>> In a electrical box
>>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> ----------------------
>>
>>
>> Hey,
>> Being that I am inexperenced but maybe with enough knowledge to finally
>> answer a question more on my level...
>>
>> You can use switches to switch in batteries. They are called
>> contactors when
>> used for such high amps. Similar to relays but heavier duty. You should
>> arrange and wire the batteries in a series/ parallel arrangement so that
>> theyare all discharging at 24, 48 and 96 volts, or whatever voltage
>> you want
>> Older controllers were called contactor controllers. They mechanically
>> switched voltages, I imaging kinda like shifting gears. There is
>> information
>> on the EVDL pertaining to their construction. I could send you past
>> posts
>> Ive saved. I plan to make a controller using a Parallax microcontroller.
>> Programmed to energize different contactors remotely placed at the
>> batterry
>> pack depending on the position of my throttle potentiometer. (anyone
>> with
>> suggestions on this im open to suggestions).
>>
>> I think a cheap controller can be had from a junked golf cart? Some club
>> cars have a pretty decent sized controller and maybe you can get it
>> cheap.
>> Otherwise I think you are gonna spend atleast 500 dollars.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>> Paul
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Phelps
>> Sent: Mon 6/11/2007 2:28 PM
>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Subject: Two
>>
>>
>>
>> Two simple questios..first..why use a controller.. Why not just 4 or
>> 6 100
>> Amp switches that add one more battery with every flick??
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The other point we ought to keep in mind, is just how fast could a DC motor
spin, and what would go first.
Let's say you're on the highway, pedal to the floor, trying to merge or pass
a truck. Your trans pops out of gear or something breaks in the drivetrain.
With an internal combustion engine, either the valves will float, or a rod
will go, before the flywheel explodes. Assuming no RPM limiter on the
electric motor, how high might the RPM go, and what fails first? If it's
the flywheel, you're in trouble.
I also had the throttle stick wide open in my hot rod 68 camaro once. I was
on my way to a 13.9 quarter mile with my foot off the pedal. To prevent
rear ending the guy ahead of me, I instinctively hit the clutch. I was
lucky, the throttle was stuck because the engine was torqued over in the
mounts, which bound the linkage. When I hit the clutch, the engine dropped
back and the throttle unstuck. Would I do the same if the controller
shorted and dumped full battery current to the motor? Maybe. Panic is a
funny thing :). I'd rather trash the motor than the flywheel. The system
should be designed to fail safely.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: Chevy motor adapters
On Mon, 2007-06-11 at 08:23 -0700, Electric Vehicle Discussion List
wrote:
Why would you want a racing flywheel? Just get a stock
flywheel for a 1 piece rear main seal chevy.
Two reasons:
to deal with the external/internal balance issue: there probably are
no stock, neutral balance/3" hub flywheels. The research we have done
so far says no such combination came from the factory. They are
available from the racing community because of the MANY engines that
are built up with parts from various sources.
its aluminum, much lighter, hence more energy efficient. One paper I
read on the subject claims an aluminum flywheel makes the car "look"
300+ lbs lighter. rotational mass is much more costly than static
weight.
Those flywheels are guaranteed not to fly apart at 8,000 or
9,000 rpm. For he RPM the electric motor is turning (5500 rpm
max) a stock flywheel is perfectly fine.
But the AC motor I will be using revs to 9000-10000 RPM.
You can shave off the ring gear to cut down on the weight if
you want.
Another benefit of the above flywheel, being aluminum, the ring gear is
steel, bolted (+ safety weld) on to the flywheel proper. It is a
do-it-yourself operation to remove. It will want dynamic balancing
after removal, but given the other custom parts used, dynamically
balancing the motor/hub/flywheel would be a good thing anyway.
---
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Well what I learned is school is that 1000 watts is a 1000 watts AC or DC
>>I thought AC and DC circuit breakers worked differently. A 100amp
>>House circuit breaker may not work well in your EV.
A DC arc will continue till the battery is dead or the breaker burns
up physically. Not good. AC breakers rely on zero-crossing of
the current 120 times per second (or 100 times per second in Europe)
to extinguish the arc. You need special breakers for DC. Even look at
the voltage ratings of a switch. It is common to see a toggle switch
rated for 5A, 250VAC and 2A, 32V DC. There's a reason for that.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
...
>This approach costs more, but works better and allows a low-voltage pack
>to drive a high-voltage motor and inverter. The Toyota Prius uses this
I knew about the Prius, seems relatively uncommon, though, for
lower-power stuff. Certainly the Solectria stuff that I've had
the pleasure(?) of repairing has not. The Brusa didn't seem to have
that from the photos I've seen. I was toying with that idea at one
time, so I could use more a more common motor without rewinding
it for a lower voltage, ie. a 144V battery and a common 208/240V
3-phase ACIM. But I never went much farther than a little sketch.
>Then the fuse or transistors are incorrectly sized. This technique is
>called a "crowbar" circuit, and it is a reliable way to convert an
>otherwise dangerous failure into a benign failure. But it depends on
>using a fuse with an I^2T rating lower than the transistor's I^2T rating.
I've used it on power supplies, too, but the fuse on a battery pack seems
a bit big for a 'crowbar' to try to vaporize, especially if the FET
is only sized reasonably (ie as the synchronous rectifier arrangement).
I know that the FET's used in the Solectria just blow the FET dies,
bonding wires, and all of the jelly filling out of their cases
when they do a rail- to-rail short on all three legs at once. You
can guess how I know that. That's about 1000 amps worth of MOSFET and
the main pack fuse didn't even think about going.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:24 PM 11/06/07 +0200, Dan wrote:
I'm familiar with all those but that doesn't answer my question. It's a
non sequitur.
Dale Ulan wrote:
then why not tell me
Why not go to the IR or Fairchild or ST or Powerex site and find
MOSFET's or IGBT's that would work and then try them?
-Dale
Dan, All
Knowing the device numbers will not help you. Otmar stated on one occasion
that he buys 10,000 parts at a time, matches sets to such a tolerance that
10% do not meet match. Why does he do this? to get the most power and
reliability from the parts used. You could build a power stage identically
to Otmar, but unless you do that matching, you won't get reliability, and
maybe not even close to the amps before something blows.
You talk of an open-source controller, so you need to design something with
totally different design philosophy to the Zilla, you will have to design
something that will work with a random batch of devices, and that is why
you need to understand the design before you start to pick parts.
Asking what transistors Otmar used is like joining the porche discussion
list and saying "I'm starting out on engine design, I think porche makes a
too expensive engine, I'm going to make a cheaper one that is just as good,
tell me what grade steel porche uses in their crank?"
Hope this helps
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My guesstimate would be 1 out of every 26,000 vehicles in the US is
an EV.
This is by no means scientific. Just a very, very, very rough
estimate. Last I heard there were 26 million registered cars in the
US and I just used a rough estimate of 10,000 EVs. This could include
electric cars and motorcycles.
Actually the EV population has probably gone down to less then 10,000
since GM, Ford and Toyota pulled their EVs from service but just to
keep the math simple my rough estimate is about 1 out of every 26,000.
If there was a way to get the data from the States that would help.
In Maryland they put an "E" after the car model if its registered as
an electric. But every state is different and I'm not sure privacy
laws would allow us to get vehicle registration data from each state
though, unless we were to get a government funded grant to make such
a survey. Not sure how that would work.
There are probably several hundred people or a few thousand who have
EVs who are not members of an affiliated EV club, on the EVDL or have
their cars in the EV Photo Album (eeek, including me). So it would
really be difficult to get a real solid EV count. So I would say
between 5,000 and 10,000 is about right.
Chip
On Jun 11, 2007, at 2:27 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: June 11, 2007 1:01:00 PM EDT
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV count
Wait a minute... Why does my motorcycle not count. It's freeway
capable and I have over 3000 electric miles on it.
damon
From: "Jay Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: EV count
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 19:41:48 -0500
Thanks, I was wondering about how many EVs (3 or 4 wheeled private
licensed
vehicles capable of 40 mph+) driven on a daily or near daily basis
there
are, not to include NEV, golf cart, LSEV, public trolleys, trains,
buses
I only know of 2 in my area of 1MM+ population. So are there only
500 or so
in the US, by extension?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Kinda off topic Chip. But still freaking FUN ! Thanks. Now I can
continue hacking from 1 am to at least 3 am. No energy drinks required...
-Jukka
Chip Gribben kirjoitti:
I'm new to EVs. My name is Dan Crankenstein.
EV controllers are too expensive. So I have a plan to make a new
controller called the "Zillch". It's called the "Zillch" because it
won't cost that much to make.
I can make them cheaper but I need your help. If you have a Zilla
controller can you crack it open and take some pictures of it for me?
I'm too cheap to buy one myself. On Otmar's blog he says he's paying
$20,000 for transistors. Now hold on there, that's way too much. I can
get a whole bunch of them for $20.00 at Radio Shack. I think I have
enough Radio Shack points accumulated now for a $5.00 coupon this month.
My new "Zillch" controller won't have a "Hairball." First of all, it
sounds like something the cat coughed up. And having a hairball is like
having a transmission in an EV - you don't need one. So my controller
won't have this "hairball" thing. That will make it cheaper. The Curtis
controller didn't have a "Hairball". My nephew's Power Wheels doesn't
have a hairball.
So that's the plan for the new "Zillch" controller.
Also, I left a message on Rich Rudman's voicemail and offered him my
advice on chargers but he won't call back. So if anyone has a PFC
charger I need you to open those up and take some pictures for me. PFC
sounds "Pretty Fricken Complex" so I'm naming my charger "PFA" for
"Pretty Fricken Affordable." And my charger will be smaller and will use
smaller wiring to make it lighter.
Who's with me? Just send your photos to [EMAIL PROTECTED] We'll worry
about the "Intellectual Property Rights" thing -whatever that means -
later on. Right now the most intellectual thing to do is make cheap EV
parts.
And with my new EV parts I'll throw in a free fire extinguisher. I bet
Otmar and Rich won't offer those for free.
Thanks,
Dan
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I visited the Virgina Museum of Transportation http://www.vmt.org/
and to my surprise, parked right outside as if to visit, is a Solectria
S10/E10 pickup truck! The type with 2 motors near the rear bumper
driven through a wrong-way rearend.
Alas, no, it wasn't a visitor, it was a display.
A STATIC display :(
Apparently it was donated to the museum after the previous owner
discovered "issues" with getting it running.
And I thought to myself, that's not right. People shouldn't see EVs as
non-functioning relics, they should see them as ready-to-drive.
So... does anybody know the history of this particular vehicle?
How about the Solectria rear-drive S10? What sort of issues tend to
arise with it? What are the chances and costs of getting it running?
Thanks...
Robert
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--- Begin Message ---
would the following setup be enough? or would i need
to get two reversing contractors?
series
controller
+ -
/ \
/ \
/ \
/+ -....+ -\
motor1 motor2
parallel
controller
+ -
/ \ / \
/ \/ \
/ /\ \
/+ -/ \+ -\
motor1 motor2
contactor placement
controller
+ -
/ \ / \
/ \/ \
/ /C \
/+ -R..\+ -\
motor1 motor2
R is the reversing and C is the regular contactor
C will turn the conection between controller positive
and motor2
positive on and off
R will switch between connecting motor1 neg and
controller neg or
betwen connecting motor1 neg and motor2 pos.
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> dale henderson wrote:
> > I want to switch two motors between series and
> parallel and Im
> > using contactors to accomplish this task. Can I
> switch them all at
> > the same time or will I need to turn one set off
> before I can turn
> > the next one off?
>
> You *must* arrange things so the series and parallel
> contacts are not
> closed at the same time. This would create a dead
> short across the
> controller output!
>
> There are a number of ways to accomplish this. One
> way is to use a
> single reversing contactor; one coil that closes the
> series contact when
> off, and the parallel contacts when on. It can't
> physically be in two
> positions at once; this provides the interlock to
> prevent short circuits.
>
> Another way is to use separate normally-open
> contactors for series and
> parallel. In this case, you need a foolproof way to
> prevent them both
> from ever being on at the same time. One method is
> some kind of time
> delay (series on -- both off -- parallel on) but
> that is risky because
> the time delay can fail. Another method is to use
> contactors with
> auxiliary contacts. When one contactor is on, its
> auxiliary contacts cut
> power to the other contactors. The contactor must
> release, which
> activates the auxiliary switch, which enables the
> other contactors.
>
> Finally, you can use a big diode to replace the
> series contactor.
> Turning on the parallel contactors will reverse-bias
> the diode,
> automatically taking it out of series mode. You'll
> still want a fuse
> because diodes can fail shorted.
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
____________________________________________________________________________________
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
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--- Begin Message ---
Hej på dej Dan
Why don't you see from alibaba.com a good DC-controller contact from
China ? They sell them cheap and the quality is usually matched.
My opinion is that there is just no room for another Zilla. It's legend.
It's high end. It SHOULD not be cheap since then everyone could affod
it. And I as multple Zilla owner will not like that.
But realisticly. A good mass production design for all EVers ahould be
AC. Permanent magnet perhaps. They are not that expencive. You can get
100 kw with less than 5000 USD. Motor and controller all together.
You can get the new Honda Civic for bargain w/o motors etc. And you can
get the Lion packs quite soon from various vendors. Say 30 kWh and 400 lbs.
I think the world needs your "drive and energy" but you have directed
the force to your own knee. Focus on the ACTUAL problem and spread the
EV gospel all over you country. Be active EV person and do conversions
to all your neigbours. And PLEASE if you have any questions do ask. I
think we all can support you on that. Cracking Zilla will bang the wrong
drum for your products.
-Jukka
Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
Dustin Stern wrote:
Too me, what you are suggesting we do is kind of like when Hitler
suggested everyone but blue eyed blonde's should killed.
I want to make an open source controller design so we can get rid of the
polution that kills the world and to that end I'm curious about how the
zilla is built and that makes me hitler?
further, Otmar reversed engineered a curtis
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--- Begin Message ---
i was wonder about folks experiences with
series/parallel battery setups? i know many have
stated that 'buddy-pairs' work well [i.e. two
batteries in parallel then put into series], however
what about three or four batteries in parallel?
also could i use only one PowerCheqs per parallel
string regardless of the number of batteries in the
string?
for example could i use 12 12volt batteries in 4
parallel strings making a 48 volt system and only need
to use three powercheqs?
Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
____________________________________________________________________________________
Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html
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--- Begin Message ---
It just so happens that Otmar has a schematic of a curtis controller
somewhere. I'm not EVen sure if it's complete but it's the most complete
one I know of that you can have for free. Reverse engineer a Curtis?
Many people have done it. It's a good basic design. Lawrnece Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
> Dustin Stern wrote:
> > Too me, what you are suggesting we do is kind of like when Hitler
suggested everyone but blue eyed blonde's should killed.
> I want to make an open source controller design so we can get rid of the
> polution that kills the world and to that end I'm curious about how the
> zilla is built and that makes me hitler?
> further, Otmar reversed engineered a curtis
>
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I have to add that the Robo vacuum is also quite a neat thing. Even it's
choking on my carpets and even ant has more IQ it's still neat. I was
just another day measuring how I can duct tape the 200 Ah Lion on the
back of it... :B
I think you can get away with 4-5 kw motor on the mowler. unless you're
going for Heavy Metal Garde Tractors head...
Motor:
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=527&product_id=4166
Controller:
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=262&product_id=3435
And 25,2 V 30/40/50 Ah Lion pack with BMS.
-Jukka
p.s.- There will be 50 Lion packs (~24V) coming back from testfield. few
hundred cycles in. Newer system with greater capacity goes in return.
Anyone interested in "old" ones ?
Danny Miller kirjoitti:
Hey don't knock the Robomower. Small, 24v system, slow, but it's
automatic and mows all by itself. Neat toy and one of the few tech toys
with real-world practical value.
Danny
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Having used some of the push-type electrics, I'd assume you'd want to use
a large guage wire for a rider w/ a 200' distance. Maybe you could
install
a couple more plugs around the yard?
I have some ideas to deal with the cord. I was thinking about using one
of those cord reel setups. We'll have to see how it holds up reeling
under
load. Or maybe a coiled cord affair with a mast on the mower and
elevated attach point on the house. The farthest point is around 200'+
from the plug.
I have almost an acre under grass and It will get kind of dicey out on
the edge where about a 1/3 acre chunk has a dozen trees on it.
The main question that I have is: The current ICE motor on it is a 19HP
Briggs. What HP electric motor do I need to replace that?
David
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Try this, ed:
> Converting a car to electric -> Vehicle UPGRADE, or
Car Retrofit for the zero petroleum age.
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the
Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
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Ok, we'll ignore all of the reasons that large trucks make REALLY poor
conversion candidates and answer your questions.
First, even though you didn't ask, I believe your weight estimate is
wrong. You didn't mention which type of battery, but common 6V golf cart
batteries weigh about 61-63 lbs each, it takes 24 of them for 144V, so
each string will weigh almost 1500 lbs, if you could manage to stuff three
strings in, they would weigh close to 4500 lbs and that doesn't count the
weight of the cables and battery boxes.
They are also rather large, so you will end up having to put some in the
bed. The engine bay is going to be pretty full with couple large electric
motors and one or two controllers, plus you'll probably end up mounting
one or two chargers in there.
If you already have the truck, you can figure this out yourself, each GC
battery is about 10.5" L x 7.2" W x 11.2" H. Make a model out of carboard
or foam and try seeing how many you can fit into a given area.
FWIW just sitting on the ground they will fill up an area a bit of 5 feet
wide by 8 feet long.
Second, you don't want to switch each bank in one at a time, you want to
wire all three strings together and use them all at once. This will give
you more range and the batteries will last longer.
Lead-Acid batteries produce more energy at low discharge rates than they
do at high discharger rates. By using all of the batteries at the same
time, each bank only sees 1/3 of the current needed to move the vehicle.
Batteries are sort of like people. A person in good shape could walk
50-60 miles before getting tired, but they might only be able to jog 10-15
miles before getting tired and only be able to run flat out for a mile or
so. So by reducing the load on the batteries to 1/3 they will last 4-5
times as long.
By my calculations, if you use each string individually you will end up
with about 25-30 miles of range, but by using them all at the same time
youll get 40-50 miles of range (at about 45 mph)
Also, this is a big truck with a lot of weight, that's going to take a lot
of current. If each string has to handle all this current by itself, then
the batteries will wear out in less than a year. By sharing the load you
should get two or maybe even three years out of the pack. Granted to even
consider this project you have to be fairly well off, but even so you
probably dont want to be spending $5,000-$6,000 on batteries every year.
You'll want to keep the transmission otherwise you won't be able to climb
any but the mildest hills and acceleration will be terminally slow. Think
zero to 60 times in the minutes not seconds.
How did you come up with 1,600 lbs for the motor and transmission? A
modern V8 weighs about 550 lbs and the transmission probably weighs 150
lbs. I think you're are off by about 1,000 lbs.
With fuel tank, radiator, etc, you will drop about 1,000 lbs total and add
4500 lbs of batteries, 300+ lbs of electric motors and probably another
700 lbs of cables, lugs, controllers, chargers, battery racks, etc.
I get the finished weight of the vehicle at around 10,500 lbs or roughly
2,000 lbs over the GVWR (without even adding the driver or cargo), so you
are going to need to beef up the suspension.
You could drop to only two strings of batteries, that will bring you
closer to the GVWR and you won't loose bed space to batteries. But your
range will drop from 40-50 miles to about 30 or so.
I'd estimate a conversion cost of about $20,000 to $25,000. You could
maybe knock off $5,000 or so, if you built it to have a top speed of only
35 mph. This will also extend your range a bit, maybe another 5-10 miles
Good luck.
>
>
> anyone ever actually complete the conversion on a full size truck?
> I know there were a couple in the making, but have never seen one actually
> completed.
> what were the results?
>
> Any tips or pointers to convert a fullsize dodge 2500 4X4?
>
> I know, I know, the 4X4 is not the best for a conversion, but I regularly
> drive through the dirt on jobsites, and the clearace (and 4X4) is really
> handy.
>
> I know it will carry the battery weight without a problem, when I got the
> truck, the only thing the bed was used for is signage, they are big sheets
> of plastic, and sometimes wood, they are big, but they are not heavy.
>
> I was thinking of losing the engine, and transmission, and bolting the
> electric motor directly to the transfer case..
> the motorbay and under the bed will all be reserved for batteries.
>
> 3 or maybe 4 banks 144v each? or more? is this plausable? when one is low,
> switch to the other and then the other? I am concerned about the
> additional
> weight of the batteries actually subtracting from the distance
> achieveable.
> I know each bank will end up weighing like 800 pounds, which is not much
> in
> the grand scheme of things, but 800X3=2,400 pounds. and 800X4=3,200
> pounds.
> and that is alot.. (the current motor and transmission weigh about 1,600
> and also subtracting the cooling systems, and exhaust, and fuel tank,
> pumps, etc, I think I can get it to a little over breakeven, but I know
> lighter is better for an EV)
>
> any help is appreciated
>
> thank
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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--- Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Dave Cover; Porsche 944 with BB-600 nicads. He made his debut at Pof DC.
>
It's not a new tale, but I've been going through hell trying to get my car
registered. It's been
almost two weeks since I first went in to get my car registered and I'm still
no closer. In fact,
if I have to go through a mechanical inspection, it could be three of four
weeks before I can get
a scheduled appointment. And they won't/can't tell you what they're looking
for. I left my name
and number with at least 5 people before I got a call back. One guy finally
found a document
outlining EV specs writen in 1994.
Here are some of the requirements;
- Must be able to start and climb a 20% grade, forward or backwards.
- Must be able to maintain 15.5 mph on a 10% grade.
- Must be able to drive at 49.7 mph for 5 minutes.
- Must have a range of 34 miles.
- Must have a charger capable of recharging within 10 hours.
- Must be able to sit anywhere from -13 to 122 degrees F for 8 hours and then
start and run.
- Must have contrasting color power leads.
- Must have ventilated battery enclosures that will keep the hydrogen levels
below 4%.
- Etc., etc.
They don't know what to do with EVs, and I'm having lot's of fun educating
them. As I'm talking to
this guy he's saying we have to make sure the motor doesn't stick on and run
into a mall and kill
somebody. I try to explain about my purpose built (Zilla) controller and all of
it's safety
features, but he doesn't want to hear it. Too many preconceived notions out
there.
The main problem is that I bought the car from out of state and I'm registering
it as an electric
car. If you register it before the conversion, no problem. Bob Rice got his
done without a hitch.
IF ANYONE IS CONSIDERING AN EV IN CONNECTICUT, REGISTER IT FIRST, THEN CONVERT
IT!
My sad story is not over yet. I'll keep you posted.
By the way, Fortunat Mueller posted about his experience a few years ago and
how the emissions
inspector came to his house for the inspection. That was the only thing that
went right for me.
Walt Bertotti works for the emissions dept out of Cheshire. He will come to
your house and certify
that your car is no longer a gasser and doesn't need emission testing. You can
call him at
203-271-5410, or the DMV Emissions Division at 203-805-6243. These people were
very helpful. Funny
thing is, one of the first people at DMV I spoke with said the Cheshire office
was shut down two
years ago and they no longer go out and do inspections. I guess nobody told
Walt that. Sigh.
Dave Cover
PS Anyone know a corrupt politician I can pay off? It might be easier that way.
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You are absolutely right. Two systems that produce the same power will
have about the same performance. Assuming they are built to about the
same standards, AC or DC will have about the same efficiency.
The commonly available AC systems are about 5%-10% more efficient than the
commonly used DC systems, but there are DC systems readily available that
are only 1-2% lower and that offer regen, but they cost about the same
(per kw) as the AC systems.
The really big advantage (IMHO) is that brushless systems don't create
brush dust, so the motors can last longer without maintenance.
John has stacked the deck a bit, however, because he was comparing 45kw AC
systems to a 500+ kw DC system. Obviously if you have 10 times the power
you will have better performance.
At the moment there aren't any remotely affordable 500kw AC systems so the
performance advantage currently goes to the DC systems
> Ok. so I have a question for John and Victor (and anyone who wants)
> Can we compare say 2 45kw motors and their controllers. One AC and
> the other DC.
> What are the hp and torque at what rpms and what is the efficiency of
> the controller and motor.
> Forget about cost.
>
> The argument that a DC motor is more powerful doesn't make sense to
> me if the 2 motors are the same hp/whatever. If it requires lower
> gearing that does not mean it is not going to have the same
> performance or torque in the end????
>
> Tehben
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
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