EV Digest 6873
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Safety of inverter/controller or whole system? (Re: Tesla...)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Tesla roadster motor philsophy plain text
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: thinking about cost
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Cool looking EVs needed for Ventura Sierra Club Event
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: thinking about cost
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Safety of inverter/controller or whole system?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Series/parallel motor clarification
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Tesla roadster motor philsophy
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) open source motor controller
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: EV count CT heard From. WARNING, CT DMV is anti-EV!
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Two
by "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Educating Dan. Was:Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting
rich?
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Educating Dan. Was:Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Grass Roots charging infrastructure Was: Quick VEVCS poll
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Grass Roots charging infrastructure Was: Quick VEVCS poll
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) DMV anti-EV (Was: EV count CT heard From. WARNING, CT DMV is anti-EV!)
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At the risk of being repetitive, and dragging out a thread that already has
gone on quite a long time, let me emphasize that my concern is over the
ubiquity of DC systems with little or no runaway safeguard protection.
It's pretty easy to make a DC controller with few or no safeguards, and I'd
venture to say that the majority used by hobbyists has been made this way.
Of course, a designer could stint on safety in an AC inverter, too. While
(as I understand it, I'm not a EE) full-on failure of an AC inverter can't
happen through catastrophic failure of the power devices, probably the most
common failure, in theory I suppose it could happen through a logic circuit
failure or even a firmware bug.
So why don't the common DC controllers have built in logic to shut down in
the event of a detected runaway, as the Zilla does? I think that part of it
is because most of these controllers are really repurposed golf car and
industrial vehicle controllers. A golf car unintentionally going full speed
ahead (what, 15 mph?) is pretty unsettling, but a road EV out of control and
headed for 75 or 80 mph is deadly. If all else fails, a golfer with a
zorched controller can drive round in circles on the golf course until the
battery is flat. Try that with a road EV that's going full bore.
Also, many EV hobbyists are either poor or cheap. They can't or won't pay
extra for safety features - just ask Rich about the reception he's gotten
for full isolation, which would enhance safety, in his chargers. (I'm not
saying all EVers are like that, but many are.)
The most commonly used controller for hobbyist conversions - Curtis - has
minimal runaway protection. Systems with Curtis controllers can be
configured to open the contactor when the accelerator is released. IMO,
this is the bare minimum for safety. But some users defeat even this
feature because they don't like the "clack-clack" of the contactor opening
and closing. These folks are depending on their ability to shut off the
keyswitch or open the main breaker if the controller should fail full-on -
if they are thinking about it at all. But by the time they're able to do
that, many of them will have already slammed into the car ahead, blasted
through the back of the garage, or run down the pedestrian.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As a past owner of a Solectria Force I could regain 30% of the energy used
to go up a hill coming back down. Overall I averaged around 10 to 15 percent
additional miles in the Portland area. To add regen to a DC motor is this not
the cost near the price of an AC drive if both bought new? If one was to
recapture this much energy with a DC motor. Would you have to be replacing
brushes more and having to turn the commutator? Any maintenance on the DC motor
should be considered as additional cost or savings.
John your point regen is not best used all the time is true. I have found it
is always better to retain as much of the momentum as possible or ICE
drivers behind you will allow. I use regen to keep from getting speeding
tickets on
hills. Slowing your speed so you do not stop at lights which drives ICE
drivers crazy. The Solectria is the only factory vehicle I have driven so far
that the regen could almost entirely replace the brakes. I consider regen to
be
a high performance feature. It does not increase your speed but it does
increases your range. The Solectria Force is not a fast vehicle but It is fun
to
drive using one pedal. Kind of like performance ICE with a stick when you use
the engine compression. I have ordered an AC motor from Victor and hope to
build something with a little higher performance.
John I agree with you about building a vehicle that only was for 100 miles
on a flat freeway. Unless there were very significant hills you will actually
decrease your range using the regen. You would have less maintenance though
on the AC motor in the long term. I know this is a minor point to you.
So for all out acceleration or a non stop flat long distance run not
considering maintenance AC advantage is diminished. However either of these
uses
would be a very one purpose vehicle. My point is that a vehicle that can go
fairly fast and long distance would be more fun for everyday use. Regardless
the
chemistry of the pack building a vehicle with an AC drive for everyday use
has advantages.
I could not agree with you more a lighter vehicle does provide the best
performance but it does put you at risk in an accident. The loss of weight is
huge too bad all the newer cars are so darn heavy.
Your statement the expensive electric AC cars are overpriced diminishes
their achievements. If a vehicle can go 30 or 40 miles and regen adds 4 or 6
miles that is significant. So is A vehicle capable of 200 miles and regen
adding
20 miles in the right conditions. To do this and not have to replace your
brake pads with higher reliability AC drives does have value. An AC drive
could
have been used in the Red beastie it would just need the right gearing. With
all that weight a lot of energy could be recovered. Of course under the right
conditions.
I drive a 4500 hundred pound AC vehicle and it has the ability of 0 to 50 in
less that 10 seconds with lead or NiMH batteries.
http://avt.inl.gov/fsev.shtml Used it is 1/4 the cost of the 100,000 cars but
with NiMH batteries. I
can go to Costco, Home Depot or any where else with 7 or 8 hundred pounds
loaded on. It is a multi purpose vehicle that can haul 2 or 3 if needed and
has a
50 mile range. I have seen it put back in the pack 60 Amps at 380 volts
getting off freeway off ramps. At 400 volts the regen starts to taper off and
420
it rolls out as the batteries are fully charged. Same running gear as the EV1
you drove but using the Tech2 GM tool for the live readings.
Were you not impressed with the EV1 AC drive for street use?
Don
In a message dated 6/11/2007 7:37:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Hello to All,
I find the following comments interesting, because as with most everyone
else's pro-AC comments, it gives large credit to the AC drive for a
vehicle's longer than average range, when in fact, it had very little to
do with it.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>As Victor pointed out. Focusing on 1/4 mile times as a vehicles value over
>looks why we have 300 million cars and trucks on the road.
>Sure you can load in enough inexpensive lead batteries to do this with a
DC
>drive. How much fun would that non performance vehicle be to drive
everyday?
>
>
I agree, it's not a lot of fun when loading up a vehicle with with
inexpensive lead acid batteries. I know. I speak from experience as one
who co-engineered, co-designed, co-built, then drove for 3+ years one of
the highest range per charge lead acid powered EVs around, Red Beastie.
For those who do not know, this converted '95 Toyota Xtra Cab truck
packed around 2500 lbs. in lead acid batteries and could travel 120+
miles per charge. It was successfully driven on the I-5 freeway system
between the major West Coast cities of Portland, Oregon and Seattle,
Washington on two occasions, a 440 mile round trip. This truck only
required one re-charge along the way, too.
Don, your point about AC is mute in regards to this vehicle. With an AC
motor replacing the very high torque 9 inch DC motor in this truck, the
5300 lb. truck would have struggled even more on the hills and probably
would have consumed 'more' current, not less. The AC motor would have
provided regen, but it would have done close to nothing to increase the
range as most all of the driving was at constant freeway speeds, and
when going down-hill after the many up-hill grades on this run, coasting
for many miles was part of the strategy for distance driving. Regen
would have slowed the truck down too much to help at all. When I used to
rent EV1s when traveling in California, I found the highest range per
charge was achieved by switching off the coast-down regen feature. Regen
was used only in braking coming off the freeway ramps and
in-town...there, yes, it was quite nice.
>The many lead acid packs one would have to keep buying and installing
would
>not be what I call an added bonus.
>
>
I don't think anyone on this list would argue with your point about the
limitations of lead acid batteries. 2500 lbs. of them is a bit over the
top, but it got the job done at the time.
>The TZero or Tesla with an AC drive propose is not just an ET slip. Here
is
>a link to a 245 mile trip with a claim of having at least another 40 miles
>left. http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/SEMAtrip2003.htm When building a
>vehicle that is enjoyable to drive, regen for increase distance and
reliability
>are an important requirements. AC drives are already better values if you
use
>these as your performance standards.
>
>
Good point, but your point seems to be more about using expensive
lithium batteries.
Saying that Red Beastie achieved its strong range per charge because it
had a 'DC drive system' would be silly, because the real reason, was
that is packed 47% of its total weight in batteries. Saying that the
tZero went 245 miles because of its 'AC drive system' is equally silly,
when it did so because it has a $60,000 lithium pack in a minimalist
tiny, quivering fiberglass toy car. A DC drive in the same car would
yield way higher performance and about the same range. Your point about
the drive system is mute.
I again, am amazed at this constant flag waving over the two minimalist
vehicles out there, the tZero and the Wrightspeed...both in excess of
$100,000...in order to justify AC drive system performance. You pretty
much 'have to' put an AC drive system in such ridiculous vehicles in
order to attain any respectable performance figures. What happens to
them when they're not? Well, two of them in a Subaru...that's at least
$20,000 worth of AC equipment, generate an 'OK' (for such a highly
touted drive system) 0-60 in ~ 7 seconds.
One 9 inch motor backed by a Zilla Z2K (about a $7000 drive system) in
this same car with the same battery pack, would deliver 0-60 in about 5
seconds...a HUGE improvement in performance.
If you want to talk about the need for range plus fun drivability, you
won't get any argument from me that lead acid doesn't cut it. If you
want to talk about using exotic and expensive batteries to get the job
done, you won't get any argument out of me on this, either. If you want
to admit that using a minimalist vehicle to help achieve the best power
to weight ratio helps to achieve these two parameters (long range and
great acceleration), you won't get any argument from me on this, either.
But, if you take such a vehicle and claim that all the great stuff about
it (range and acceleration together) is because it has an AC drive
system, well...you just sound a little silly, that's all.
You seem to ignore the real reasons for the delivered performance
(minimalist car + exotic batteries = long range and great power to
weight ratio). The tZero had the same AC drive system in it, when it was
powered by lead acid batteries. It weighed about half what Red Beastie
weighed and packed about half the battery weight as well. Where the
similarity begins, is that both vehicles packed close to 50% lead acid
battery weight. Though there were lots of outrageous claims, my personal
talks with the AC Propulsion guys revealed that the real range at 60 mph
or so, was about 100 miles...still great, no doubt. The reason the car
now goes 250-300 miles per charge, is all due to its $60,000 battery
pack as installed in a minimalist type vehicle...it has little to do
with its AC drive.
See Ya.....John Wayland
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sure, but it's even cheaper (still) to keep buying
gasoline (unless you drive Hummer). So if money is
absolute top priority, conversion makes no sense at all.
At least today.
Victor
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
True enough, however the number of people interested in EVs shoots up
whenever gas prices jump up. This indicates that for many people it's
more about economics than the enviroment.
Many folks think they will save a bundle by building an EV, and this
simply isn't true. You might save a little in the loong run, but you have
to spend a bundle up front.
A lot of folks (most) choke on this and decide to the cheaper route, which
currently means DC.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This came in on the NEDRA Newswire. If anyone would like to help out
please call Dorothy Littlejohn. Thanks - Chip, NEDRA
I know this is gettin to be short notice, but we just found out about
you. The Sierra Club is working with the City of Ventura on their
annual Street Fair downtown on the 4th of July. They close off about
10 blocks of Main Street and have given us a block for a "Cool, Clean
and Fossil Free" transportation exhibit. We have some biodiesel,
veggie cars, solar electric prius, electric scooter, electric bike,
Rav 4, CNG Honda Civic, a bunch of bicycles, the bus company will
have a booth, the ride share and City of Ventura with their bike lane
proposals, skateboarders, and such. What we are missing are some
really cool looking fast and fossil free vehicles. Know anyone in the
Central Coast who might like to participate with us?
Dorothy Littlejohn
Los Padres Chapter Sierra Club
Energy Conservation Chair
805 962-8415
www.people2peopletv.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Spending a bundle up front is wise investment.
If we continue to use gasoline like we are it is not just the gas that will
cost more. Our dollar is being devalued and sending more money overseas to buy
fuel is just adding to the problem. So not buying oil or trying to buy as
little as possible makes all the sense now not later. Our country runs on oil
and would come to a screeching halt if we did not have it. So if over look
all the other reasons it is in the best interest of the country. Driving an
electric vehicle is a very patriotic. It also is a better use of millions of
vehicles that would otherwise become scrap metal.
Don
In a message dated 6/12/2007 12:27:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Sure, but it's even cheaper (still) to keep buying
gasoline (unless you drive Hummer). So if money is
absolute top priority, conversion makes no sense at all.
At least today.
Victor
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> True enough, however the number of people interested in EVs shoots up
> whenever gas prices jump up. This indicates that for many people it's
> more about economics than the enviroment.
>
> Many folks think they will save a bundle by building an EV, and this
> simply isn't true. You might save a little in the loong run, but you have
> to spend a bundle up front.
> A lot of folks (most) choke on this and decide to the cheaper route, which
> currently means DC.
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:37 AM 6/11/2007, you wrote:
did you buy a controller from him?
My oh my. You are a newby, aren't you...
You need to do a little of your own homework.
To be honest, I really don't like the "let's gang up on this
guy" sort of comments I have been reading. I do agree that Dan needs
a mild slap on the wrist for attempting to bad mouth Otmar. I know
that Otmar finds this all very amusing and knows that this guy has no
chance whatsoever of duplicating the Zilla, even if he does get a
picture of the innards.
By asking me if I own a Zilla he is showing that he really
is not willing or able to do the most simple research before he
writes a note to the EVDL. If he bothered to read the CafeElectric
website or if he made a ten second Google on "Bill Dube" he would
have been able to answer this question.
Maybe I'm "feeding the troll" but I'd like to think of it in
a more Pavlovian sense that I am "training the troll." :-)
Bill Dube' (Yes, I own a Zilla.)
Bill Dube skrev:
Otmar tells me anything I ask him, but I'm not trying to rip off
his design and sell it as my own. :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If I am driving on a curve at 60 miles an hour and there is a 1/2 second
of a locked wheel, I am no longer the driver, just a passenger. You are
thinking of stright line open freeway only Victor.
I think the best way to sum this up is equal but different :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dale,
There's a decent drawing in the Zilla Owners Manual that you can get from Cafe
Electric here:
http://cafeelectric.com/products/zilla/HB202.pdf
It show a single motor implementing reversing contactors as well a dual motors
implementing both series/parallel and reversing
contactors
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of dale henderson
> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 2:28 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Series/parallel motor clarification
>
>
> would the following setup be enough? or would i need
> to get two reversing contractors?
>
>
> series
>
> controller
> + -
> / \
> / \
> / \
> /+ -....+ -\
> motor1 motor2
>
>
> parallel
>
> controller
> + -
> / \ / \
> / \/ \
> / /\ \
> /+ -/ \+ -\
> motor1 motor2
>
>
> contactor placement
>
> controller
> + -
> / \ / \
> / \/ \
> / /C \
> /+ -R..\+ -\
> motor1 motor2
>
> R is the reversing and C is the regular contactor
> C will turn the conection between controller positive
> and motor2
>
> positive on and off
> R will switch between connecting motor1 neg and
> controller neg or
>
> betwen connecting motor1 neg and motor2 pos.
>
>
> --- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > dale henderson wrote:
> > > I want to switch two motors between series and
> > parallel and Im
> > > using contactors to accomplish this task. Can I
> > switch them all at
> > > the same time or will I need to turn one set off
> > before I can turn
> > > the next one off?
> >
> > You *must* arrange things so the series and parallel
> > contacts are not
> > closed at the same time. This would create a dead
> > short across the
> > controller output!
> >
> > There are a number of ways to accomplish this. One
> > way is to use a
> > single reversing contactor; one coil that closes the
> > series contact when
> > off, and the parallel contacts when on. It can't
> > physically be in two
> > positions at once; this provides the interlock to
> > prevent short circuits.
> >
> > Another way is to use separate normally-open
> > contactors for series and
> > parallel. In this case, you need a foolproof way to
> > prevent them both
> > from ever being on at the same time. One method is
> > some kind of time
> > delay (series on -- both off -- parallel on) but
> > that is risky because
> > the time delay can fail. Another method is to use
> > contactors with
> > auxiliary contacts. When one contactor is on, its
> > auxiliary contacts cut
> > power to the other contactors. The contactor must
> > release, which
> > activates the auxiliary switch, which enables the
> > other contactors.
> >
> > Finally, you can use a big diode to replace the
> > series contactor.
> > Turning on the parallel contactors will reverse-bias
> > the diode,
> > automatically taking it out of series mode. You'll
> > still want a fuse
> > because diodes can fail shorted.
> >
> > --
> > Ring the bells that still can ring
> > Forget the perfect offering
> > There is a crack in everything
> > That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> > leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
> >
>
>
> Albuquerque, NM
> http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
> http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
> (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
> http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dan,
Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is no free lunch.
If you have a motor with a high RPM redline, it will
require a higher voltage simply because it generates
a higher back-EMF that counter-acts the voltage
that the controller applies to the motor.
If the controller does not provide a high enough
voltage, then the motor will lack power at high
RPMs, there will not be enough current flow through the
motor due to the lack of voltage difference between the
applied voltage and back EMF.
Another issue with high voltage controllers is that the
higher the voltage, the lower the current that can be
carried by a certain amount of silicon.
Now you may say that it won't matter - the power is still
the same if the voltage is double and the current half.
Correct - but the motor is not always turning at optimal
RPMs. Starting torque is linear with current through the
motor, so half the current is half the starting torque.
Since the max RPMs of an AC motor can be double the speed
of a DC motor, you can adjust the gearing to double the
starting torque again (half the gear ratio) but now you
have gained nothing: the motor is running at double speed
and it is immediately reduced to half, so you have the same
power and torque, no matter if you have a high voltage
or low voltage setup. Main drawbacks of high voltage are
the large nr of batteries required and the high wear of
the gearbox (or an impossible to find diff ratio).
What can give you higher low speed torque is a large
ratio between battery current and maximum motor current,
in other words: much more silicon than needed for the
average drive current.
I think that is what Otmar did with the Zilla.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 2:09 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Tesla roadster motor philsophy
given the weight and power of their motor it seems they are choosing the
right technology with getting their power through the voltage rather than
the current by going high rpm (phase velocity). seemingly a pure win win
other than perhaps a little higher gear ratio needed. am I understanding
that right or is there more to it?
is high rpm AC the certain way forward?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
with all the fuss going on about open designs for motor controller,
why not take and improve on whats already out there ?
OSMC project has been open source with its circuits, board layouts and
construction from the very beginning
http://www.robotpower.com/osmc_info/
http://www.robotpower.com/products/osmc_info.html
Yes, it does only 50Volts and 160Amps continous, thats 8KW , but its a
start. Workable design that you can scale up from.
All the designs are out there, you can put one together yourself, buy
a kit or preassembled. Questions are answered in its yahoo discussion
group.
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I recommend you follow Otmar's example, since that seems to work:
- buy a competitor device (pictures of them won't help you, so
there is no reason anybody would go through the hassle to
void their warranty, open the controller they bought for
good money, lose real value by voiding their warranty, only
to give you something unusable, because you can't learn how
it works from a picture)
- learn enough EE so you understand what this is all about
(It took me 6 years to get an MscEE, you may be much
smarter than I am and do it faster)
- build a small scale device, so you can blow up a can full
of transistors while getting it right without spending too
much money.
- figure out how to scale to the real thing without it blowing
up, having overheating issues, spontaneous smoke loss and
all the other issues that you will need to address
- figure out how to make your design produceable
(did you ever have an electronics design that you produced
in more than a handful numbers, so you have an idea what
it takes?)
- redo your calculations about what price you will charge
for your controller once you have not only the electronics
working, but also the mechanics in production, all the
assembly work figured out, sourced all the parts and work
and decided how to sell them, service them and so on.
If you have gone through this entire cycle at least once, then
I like to hear from you again.
Your perspective on otmar has likely changed 180 deg by that time
but success in your endeavours anyways.
Some free advice: I read most of your posts and from the way
you respond to people, you come across as an ungrateful person.
You demand that others help you and complain when they do not
comply to the demands that you place on them, even if they have
good reason not to. You also ignore those resonses and reject
the good reasons given to you, because that does not fit your
purpose.
I have seen that behavior many times before, usually these
people were self-centered and not interested in other people
or in helping others.
This attitude will not get you very far on this list nor in
life because people see how you respond and will simply stop
responding to you. If you carry your act a little longer, then
you will be classified as "Troll" and be ignored by everyone
with a serious contribution to this list. Is that what you want?
For that reason, this will be my first and last post on this subject.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
I want to make an open source controller design so we can get rid of the
polution that kills the world and to that end I'm curious about how the
zilla is built and that makes me hitler?
further, Otmar reversed engineered a curtis
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Emissions testing?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
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-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 11:39 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV count CT heard From. WARNING, CT DMV is anti-EV!
Throw a Honda genset from home depot in the trunk and claim that it is gas
car now (series hybrid) and register it that way.
No different than Prius. At least you can drive.
Just a thought.
Victor
Dave Cover wrote:
> --- Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Dave Cover; Porsche 944 with BB-600 nicads. He made his debut at Pof DC.
>>
>
> It's not a new tale, but I've been going through hell trying to get my
> car registered. It's been almost two weeks since I first went in to
> get my car registered and I'm still no closer. In fact,
...
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Don't beleive everything you learned in school! DC and AC are two very
different animals.
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: Two
Well what I learned is school is that 1000 watts is a 1000 watts AC or DC
Mitchell
-------Original Message-------
From: Brandon Kruger
Date: 6/11/2007 3:56:54 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Two
I thought AC and DC circuit breakers worked differently. A 100amp
House circuit breaker may not work well in your EV.
Brandon Kruger
http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/
http://cafepress.com/altfuel
On 6/11/07, Phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Have you thought about using 100 amp house circuit breakers?
In a electrical box
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Hey,
Being that I am inexperenced but maybe with enough knowledge to finally
answer a question more on my level...
You can use switches to switch in batteries. They are called contactors
when
used for such high amps. Similar to relays but heavier duty. You should
arrange and wire the batteries in a series/ parallel arrangement so that
theyare all discharging at 24, 48 and 96 volts, or whatever voltage you
want
Older controllers were called contactor controllers. They mechanically
switched voltages, I imaging kinda like shifting gears. There is
information
on the EVDL pertaining to their construction. I could send you past posts
Ive saved. I plan to make a controller using a Parallax microcontroller.
Programmed to energize different contactors remotely placed at the
batterry
pack depending on the position of my throttle potentiometer. (anyone with
suggestions on this im open to suggestions).
I think a cheap controller can be had from a junked golf cart? Some club
cars have a pretty decent sized controller and maybe you can get it
cheap.
Otherwise I think you are gonna spend atleast 500 dollars.
Hope this helps.
Paul
________________________________
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Phelps
Sent: Mon 6/11/2007 2:28 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Two
Two simple questios..first..why use a controller.. Why not just 4 or 6
100
Amp switches that add one more battery with every flick??
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Tom Gocze wrote:
Just a quick comment:
Last I checked this is a capitalist system, Otmar can sell his product
for whatever he thinks it is worth and whatever we want to pay.
yes he is. and I'm free to point out that he does it for capitalist
reasons. and I'm right.
The marketplace is a wonderful filter.
the marketplace is why we still drive 120 year old technology instead of
floying saucers like we would have 80 years ago if greed et al weren't
so widespread. less sheepism would also work. just to get a glimmer of
the evil that is around you could watch who killed the electric car
(again if you've already seen it)
I applaud your idea to make a better cheaper controller, so buy a
Zilla or a Curtis, open it up and copy what you like and make a better
one.
If your suggestion entails you paying the 2550$ for a zilla then I like
your idea. otherwise it's not terribly bright to say the least. I don't
intend to do a reverse engineering. I believe it's better to learn EE
from a teaching source rather than a single device. call me crazy. I
just want to see
Once you do that, everyone will love you and you will be happy.
people stopping being idiots would make me happy
In the meantime, you need to realize that people need to feed their
families,
that slipped my mind. I guess when I help others I forget that
make a product that works, pay their employees, warranty their product
and pay rent and taxes AND Liability Insurance([EMAIL PROTECTED],000A would
scare any insurance man worth his salt!!).
It is slightly different than a creative economy job like graphic
design. Perhaps before starting to produce this new thing, a few
business courses might be warranted.
I'm not planning to sell controllers
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sigh. will the only speakers on this matters be idiots? is noone among
you clearminded enough to see the truth that this could and should be done?
a simple inexpensive open source controller so everyone can build for
themselves and for others to maximize the impact.
Jukka Järvinen wrote:
Hej på dej Dan
Why don't you see from alibaba.com a good DC-controller contact from
China ? They sell them cheap and the quality is usually matched.
My opinion is that there is just no room for another Zilla. It's
legend. It's high end. It SHOULD not be cheap since then everyone
could affod it. And I as multple Zilla owner will not like that.
But realisticly. A good mass production design for all EVers ahould be
AC. Permanent magnet perhaps. They are not that expencive. You can get
100 kw with less than 5000 USD. Motor and controller all together.
You can get the new Honda Civic for bargain w/o motors etc. And you
can get the Lion packs quite soon from various vendors. Say 30 kWh and
400 lbs.
I think the world needs your "drive and energy" but you have directed
the force to your own knee. Focus on the ACTUAL problem and spread
the EV gospel all over you country. Be active EV person and do
conversions to all your neigbours. And PLEASE if you have any
questions do ask. I think we all can support you on that. Cracking
Zilla will bang the wrong drum for your products.
-Jukka
Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
Dustin Stern wrote:
Too me, what you are suggesting we do is kind of like when Hitler
suggested everyone but blue eyed blonde's should killed.
I want to make an open source controller design so we can get rid of
the polution that kills the world and to that end I'm curious about
how the zilla is built and that makes me hitler?
further, Otmar reversed engineered a curtis
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On 6/12/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
sigh. will the only speakers on this matters be idiots? is noone among
you clearminded enough to see the truth that this could and should be done?
a simple inexpensive open source controller so everyone can build for
themselves and for others to maximize the impact.
And i pointed you to one:
http://www.robotpower.com/products/osmc_info.html
Basic google and fact checking turns this up.
Why do you keep complaining if its already out there ? Why arent you
already at work on improving it ?
-kert
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Interesting idea Jeff, but a bit too fiddly for the user I think.
I suggest it might be better to include a cellphone module in the
charger with GPRS which is able to download a list of valid PINs to
your pic chip, and return power usage data to the central server.
This is still cheap and simple to do, and the user just taps in their
PIN, and when they are ready to leave they just go, the system knows
how much you used.
You can top up the balance attached to the PIN online, and check the
status of chargers etc.
If you have not used this charger network before (or your credit has
run out), then you must send a chargeable SMS text or call a premium
rate number which will give you a single-use PIN to type in - the cost
for this one-off use is a bit higher.
Sure, not the most secure system ever but easy to use, cheap to
implement and good enough for now. I've done something like this
before so I am biased but it's not complex :)
Still, that's the easy bit. The difficult bit is getting permission
to install chargers, picking a connector and power standard, making
them safe, and getting them widespread enough to be worth calling a
network!
On 6/12/07, Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Call me a pessimist but...
I like the idea but the coin-op would probably become a target for
theft and worse, the 100's in damage to steal $3 in quarters.
I was thinking of these chargeing kiosks myself and one of the ides I
had was pay by cell phone only simpler.
Have a time changing access code and a person calls a phone number,
enters the station code and recieves a code that is good at that point
in time. They type in the code, when they are ready and it starts
charging. When They get back they call the number and hold the phone up
to the speaker. The touch tones tell the reciving program how much power
was used.
Kind of an honor system. Default charge is maximum if they don't log
out, but is retained in memory of device and they get an email that the
log out was forgotten. The next time they go to the charge station it
has them "check out" before giving them the new code
"You have a previous charge(no pun intended) that is not completed,
Please hold phone to unit until green led goes out then resume this menu"
Think we can get it all on a PIC micro?
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As I recall the way the electric regulations in the US are written it
is illegal to resell electricity. Of course, you can sell access to
electricity. If you simply used the concept that 1 hour of access to
a 1800 Watt limit outlet should be treated as purchasing 1.8 Kwh of
electricity then you would meet the letter of the law. That does
mean that users would be potentially paying for power they didn't
actually use, but you could adjust the hourly rate to take those kind
of things into account.
You need to simplify the whole arrangement to keep the installation
cost down. No point in monitoring kilowatt hour use since you can't
bill by it. Each "station" could be as simply as a keypad locked
outlet. Each user would be assigned a pin and entering it would
unlock the outlet. The system would track the number of hours the
system was in use. At the end of the month the total hours would be
billed to the customer. Individual stations could be linked back to
the master station via the electric wiring itself similar to the way
most power utilities now remote read their electric meters.
You could start with something far simpler. Outlets with locking
covers and simple locks would make for a low initial
investment. Charging club members would pay a monthly fee for a key
to the locks.
Certainly all this is technically possible. Now we just need a bunch
of EVs to make it commercially viable.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
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I live in MD. As far as I'm concerned, it's none of the state's business
what motive force my car is propelled by as long as the car passes the state
safety inspection and the state emissions inspection.
First of all, I have the state safety inspection checklist at home. NOWHERE
does it state "Is vehicle within GVWR?" or "Is original engine still in
vehicle?" The key items listed are:
1. Seatbelts
2. Turnsignals/hazards
3. Brakes
4. Headlights (functional and minimum height)
5. Horn
6. Wheel bearings
7. CV joint boots (if applicable)
8. Body damage
9. Glass
10. Shocks/suspension/alignment/steering
11. Tires
12. Exhaust (yeah right)
There are a few more points but they are all things of that nature and they
are not anything that the car would flunk by being an EV.
Second, obviously when summoned to the VEIP station for an emissions test,
you will pass with flying colors. The Maryland MVA does have an electric
vehicle exemption for EV's. When I owned my Comuta Van, I obtained the EV
lifetime waiver.
Lastly, nearly all states have a Historic and/or Hot Rod/Street Rod license
plate for cars over a certain age or "heavily modified" vehicles. These tags
usually exempt you from inspections although you're not supposed to use the
car as your "daily driver". Well I consider a converted ICE to be "heavily
modified".
Since I'm driving a '74 Beetle, I got the Historic tags and damn the
inspections. Every light & accessory on my car works, the brakes are
excellent, the tires new, etc, etc, etc. It's obvious that right now, the
government (federal, state or local) has no clue about EV's and no idea how
to regulate them or what is safe or unsafe about them. As such, I am not
going to allow the state gov't to interfere with my EV'ing. Let's get real
folks, we all know that the state safety and emissions inspection are
nothing but a revenue & job generating device for state coffers. I'm not
even a professional mechanic but every time I take a car in for a safety or
emissions inspection, I always have to correct or explain something to the
inspecting "official" because he doesn't know his own job. I would have
failed several past inspections if I didn't know the state inspection manual
better than the state inspector.
If the gov't DID have a clue, the EV inspection might look something like
this:
1. Mandatory wire gauges for 400, 500, 1000 & 2000 amp drive systems
2. Crimped or soldered battery interconnects or buss bars
3. Corrosion free interconnects?
4. Motor mounting in good condition?
5. Emergency battery disconnect present & functional?
6. Charger cord safety relay present & functional? (if onboard charger is
present)
7. Main contactor of the proper rating?
8. Pot box in good condition with double return springs intact?
9. Is high voltage cableing color differentiated? Safely routed to protect
against rub-through?
10. High voltage safety in place and functional? (Fuse or breaker)
11. Exhaust fan in place to evacuate h2 gas? (for lead equipped vehicles
with batteries in cabin)
(Corvettes, DeLoreans and other cars have the battery in the passenger
compartment so don't get started on how batteries shouldn't be allowed in
the cabin.)
You get the idea. My point is, don't be bullied.
Rich A.
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From: Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: EV count CT heard From. WARNING, CT DMV is anti-EV!
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 20:56:18 -0400
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Egaddss Dave, what a run around. I hope you can get your car
registered. It's a nice piece of work. It sure handled great at the
PODC.
I can feel your pain. We had a fellow get the run around in MD and
finally gave up and sent the car down to his son in FL where it
passed with flying colors. FL appears to be somewhat liberal when it
comes to registering EVs.
The Maryland State Police is now inspecting EV Conversions here. The
police sargent "personally" drove that fellow's car to a weigh
station and flunked it because it was over the Gross Vehicle Weight.
Well, that's no surprise with it loaded down with flooded batteries.
So converting a flooded lead acid car in Maryland is going to be a
hassle. The only work around we can think of is to take a few of the
batteries out before it gets weighed. Hopefully they won't do a range
test. Or like you mentioned have the car inspected before the
conversion.
It sounds like this is going to continue to be a problem. If we are
stuck with lead the issues will be the car will be too heavy if we
use flooded batteries but if we go with AGMs the range may be an
issue if they require a 35 to 40 mile range test.
I guess we need to know the requirements before doing the conversions.
Chip
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