EV Digest 6876
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Safety of inverter/controller or whole system?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Question about DMV
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: thinking about cost
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Embarrassing Moments , Was: EV's are less maintenance?
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Question about DMV
by "Roger Daisley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
by Thomas Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: open source motor controller
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Question about DMV
by Steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Embarrassing Moments , Was: EV's are less maintenance?
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Grass Roots charging infrastructure Was: Quick VEVCS poll
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Question about DMV
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Question about DMV
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Check out Zilla Blog.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV count CT heard From. WARNING, CT DMV is anti-EV!
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Safety of inverter/controller or whole system? (Re: Tesla...)
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Safety of inverter/controller or whole system? (Re: Tesla...)
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Check out Zilla Blog.
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Embarrassing Moments , Was: EV's are less maintenance?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Another eBay EV auction
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Quick VEVCS poll
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: thinking about cost
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Safety of inverter/controller or whole system?
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Tesla roadster motor philsophy
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Safety of inverter/controller or whole system? (Re: Tesla...)
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Chevy motor adapters
by Steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Tesla roadster motor philsophy
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Safety of inverter/controller or whole system?
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
(-Phil-) wrote:
what I am talking about is to put the contactor across the motor or
battery, but PAST the main system fuse. This is basically a "blow the
fuse" contactor and will definitely interrupt power to a faulted
controller or whatever.
It will definitely blow the fuse. But by shorting the motor, you will
also get a huge generated current and huge dynamic braking effect. So,
you really need two fuses; one from this shorting contactor to the
battery, to break battery current; and one from the shorting contactor
to the motor, to break generated motor current.
Or, put this shorting contactor somewhere else. For a series motor, you
could short the field. This won't stop it, but it will drastically
reduce the torque it can produce.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is a mailing list. That's how they work. Engage brain before
attempting to think.
On 6/12/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I think you got the wrong guy : )
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> So I did some looking on the State Police website
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--- Begin Message ---
Yeah.... if you just want cheap, an electric car looses. And any new
car loses. In grad school I drove a series of old 80's subarus.
Drove them till the cost of repairs exceeded the cost of a new one
(about $400), then got a new one. They get close to 30mpg, so fuel
isn't that much even at $4/gal (if you don't count external costs).
I'm not doing an electric car for the cost -- I'm doing it because
I've really wanted one for 15 years, and now I finally have the money
to buy more than a $400 car.
A new car now costs somewhere above $20k for most of them. I figure
that even if I do a really nice drive system and even perhaps some
LiON batteries, I can convert my truck for less than $35k -- less than
$15k if I stick with AGM's. Compared to driving a clunker, it's
damned expensive. But compared to a new car, I figure at worst it's a
wash.
On 6/12/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
True, the cheapest way to drive is probably to buy a clunker for $200 and
drive it until it drops and then buy another.
Not counting the cost of gasoline, you could probably keep this up for 30
years or more on just the initial cost of converting a vehicle to
electric.
> Sure, but it's even cheaper (still) to keep buying
> gasoline (unless you drive Hummer). So if money is
> absolute top priority, conversion makes no sense at all.
>
> At least today.
>
> Victor
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> True enough, however the number of people interested in EVs shoots up
>> whenever gas prices jump up. This indicates that for many people it's
>> more about economics than the enviroment.
>>
>> Many folks think they will save a bundle by building an EV, and this
>> simply isn't true. You might save a little in the loong run, but you
>> have
>> to spend a bundle up front.
>> A lot of folks (most) choke on this and decide to the cheaper route,
>> which
>> currently means DC.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone else had such experiences like Bruce and I?
It might help me recover, verses having to go for
therapy.....
Soon after I got my EV I drove away with the charger cable trailing
from the passenger door.. Somehow didn't run it over but had to stop
and retrieve it amid bemused onlookers.
You only do that once, and then you install a proper charge socket
with an interlock switch :)
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--- Begin Message ---
Be very careful about what you call your vehicle, especially in California.
About two years ago, the DMV and tax authorities did a sting on custom car
builders who, for example, took a '55 Chev and extensively modified it,
sometimes producing a car worth $100K+ and sold and registered it as a '55
Chev, thereby avoiding a hefty tax. The builders paid huge fines for their
slight oversight.
Roger Daisley, Pullman, WA (Former CA resident)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
people please slow down, take a breath and think a little, please have a
heart, no-one on this earth is perfect, everyone has instabilities and
insecurities to some degree at some time in their life, just let it go.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OSMC is nice, might work for my outboard motor, but the PROBLEM is all
the real effort is to "scale up" to 1000amps and 200 volts.
I'm really amazed, its been over a year now, and "everyone" was going to
create their own motor controllers, many as "open source", and that
basically said to me NOT to invest my time on it, and here we are,
people STILL COMPLAINING, but NO CONTROLLERS.
The world keeps going around, the talkers keep talking, the doers, will
they find something to do that people appreciate and pay for..
Jack
Kaido Kert wrote:
with all the fuss going on about open designs for motor controller,
why not take and improve on whats already out there ?
OSMC project has been open source with its circuits, board layouts and
construction from the very beginning
http://www.robotpower.com/osmc_info/
http://www.robotpower.com/products/osmc_info.html
Yes, it does only 50Volts and 160Amps continous, thats 8KW , but its a
start. Workable design that you can scale up from.
All the designs are out there, you can put one together yourself, buy
a kit or preassembled. Questions are answered in its yahoo discussion
group.
-kert
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--- Begin Message ---
Thank you! This site provided state specific info no one else seemed
to be able to provide. Of particular importance to me is info
about a specific GVW I must meet for an EV to be legal. This
is a necessary factor as I struggle with the battery issue.
I recommend anyone planning a conversion do a specific seach
for their state before starting to spend the BIG buck$.
On Tue, 2007-06-12 at 08:04 -0700, Electric Vehicle Discussion List
wrote:
> http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/laws/incen_laws.html
>
> This is a US Dept of Energy website showing incentives and
> laws for all
> AFVs (not just EVs). You can search for your state
> specifically. Try
> the "Comprehensive Search Using All Options" button.
---
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
LOL. I think you need a stronger whip. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 5:29 AM
Subject: Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
> I'm so sorry that I didn't reasearch your highness before humbly
> adressing you.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Soon after I got my EV I drove away with the charger cable trailing
from the passenger door.. Somehow didn't run it over but had to stop
and retrieve it amid bemused onlookers.
You only do that once, and then you install a proper charge socket
with an interlock switch :) "
Got an interlock switch. Tested it. Didn't work. Still awaiting repair.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe Lee is right.
But I like the "campground analogy". "Rent" the parking spot, ask for
donations or require the driver to buy a $2.00 soda pop. ;) "Free EV
charging with 24 oz. soda purchase"
At my house, I intend to let people charge up for free unless for some
reason I become a popular charging spot and I end up with a lot of people on
my doorstep.
I wonder if you could legally just use a parking meter. You pay for the
"parking", it just so happens that the outlet becomes active when you
deposit money. You pay for the parking spot and all of it's amenities
contained therin. Like a campsite. Lol...
Rich
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:05:23 -0500
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Grass Roots charging infrastructure Was: Quick VEVCS poll
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Brandon Kruger wrote:
About the standalone pay charger, I think this could be done fairly easily
if I could get some kind of weatherproof housing similar to a parking meter
to house the hardware in. I believe these stations could be hand-built for
$500 each at the absolute most. Future versions could include credit card
scanners, or an internet
connection to bill to an account that would be controlled via the
web. Lots of potential for these devices.
The main stumbling block is legal, not technical. In virtually every
locale in the USA, your local power company demanded and was granted a
legal monopoly on selling power. This was done nearly 100 years ago,
when they were first intalling "the grid". The rationale was that nobody
would build powerplants and run powerlines to every home unless they
could be guaranteed of a monopoly -- it would be unworkable to have
competing power companies and duplicate wiring. <snip>
_________________________________________________________________
Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now.
http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In colorado, if a vehical is over 25 years old, you can get collector
plates, and never have to have it inspected again (till you sell it,
at least). So, since my donor is a 1974 pickup, I get it registered
once, and they never need to know it's an electric. Unless I want
to get the tax credit for converting it to electric....... then I have
to get a certified police inspection to make sure it's really an
electric now.
On 6/12/07, Steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thank you! This site provided state specific info no one else seemed
to be able to provide. Of particular importance to me is info
about a specific GVW I must meet for an EV to be legal. This
is a necessary factor as I struggle with the battery issue.
I recommend anyone planning a conversion do a specific seach
for their state before starting to spend the BIG buck$.
On Tue, 2007-06-12 at 08:04 -0700, Electric Vehicle Discussion List
wrote:
> http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/laws/incen_laws.html
>
> This is a US Dept of Energy website showing incentives and
> laws for all
> AFVs (not just EVs). You can search for your state
> specifically. Try
> the "Comprehensive Search Using All Options" button.
---
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, based on my current progress with my Electric 1990 Nissan 240sx, I
might actually make it to 25 years before I am ready to register it!
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 12:25
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Question about DMV
In colorado, if a vehical is over 25 years old, you can get collector
plates, and never have to have it inspected again (till you sell it, at
least). So, since my donor is a 1974 pickup, I get it registered
once, and they never need to know it's an electric. Unless I want
to get the tax credit for converting it to electric....... then I have
to get a certified police inspection to make sure it's really an
electric now.
On 6/12/07, Steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thank you! This site provided state specific info no one else seemed
> to be able to provide. Of particular importance to me is info about a
> specific GVW I must meet for an EV to be legal. This is a necessary
> factor as I struggle with the battery issue.
>
> I recommend anyone planning a conversion do a specific seach for their
> state before starting to spend the BIG buck$.
>
> On Tue, 2007-06-12 at 08:04 -0700, Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> wrote:
> > http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/laws/incen_laws.html
> >
> > This is a US Dept of Energy website showing incentives and
> > laws for all
> > AFVs (not just EVs). You can search for your state
> > specifically. Try
> > the "Comprehensive Search Using All Options" button.
>
> ---
> Steve
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.cafeelectric.com/blog/?p=8 I couldn't believe the comments
there. Lawrence Rhodes
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
LOL Same here.
On 6/11/07, Steven Arlint <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
For what it's worth, the first 2 gas cars I owned would not have
passed those requirements in almost all areas. (LOL)
VR,
Steven Arlint
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Rice-
"Here are some of the requirements;
- Must be able to start and climb a 20% grade, forward or backwards.
- Must be able to maintain 15.5 mph on a 10% grade.
- Must be able to drive at 49.7 mph for 5 minutes.
- Must have a range of 34 miles.
- Must have a charger capable of recharging within 10 hours.
- Must be able to sit anywhere from -13 to 122 degrees F for 8 hours
and then start and run.
- Must have contrasting color power leads.
- Must have ventilated battery enclosures that will keep the hydrogen
levels below 4%.
- Etc., etc."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seems like all of this could be a reason to keep a clutch in a DC
conversion? You can always put the clutch in (even if that does
result in the motor exploding, that's less catastrphic than ramming
the car in front of you or launching over a cliff)
Z
On 6/11/07, David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
At the risk of being repetitive, and dragging out a thread that already has
gone on quite a long time, let me emphasize that my concern is over the
ubiquity of DC systems with little or no runaway safeguard protection.
It's pretty easy to make a DC controller with few or no safeguards, and I'd
venture to say that the majority used by hobbyists has been made this way.
Of course, a designer could stint on safety in an AC inverter, too. While
(as I understand it, I'm not a EE) full-on failure of an AC inverter can't
happen through catastrophic failure of the power devices, probably the most
common failure, in theory I suppose it could happen through a logic circuit
failure or even a firmware bug.
So why don't the common DC controllers have built in logic to shut down in
the event of a detected runaway, as the Zilla does? I think that part of it
is because most of these controllers are really repurposed golf car and
industrial vehicle controllers. A golf car unintentionally going full speed
ahead (what, 15 mph?) is pretty unsettling, but a road EV out of control and
headed for 75 or 80 mph is deadly. If all else fails, a golfer with a
zorched controller can drive round in circles on the golf course until the
battery is flat. Try that with a road EV that's going full bore.
Also, many EV hobbyists are either poor or cheap. They can't or won't pay
extra for safety features - just ask Rich about the reception he's gotten
for full isolation, which would enhance safety, in his chargers. (I'm not
saying all EVers are like that, but many are.)
The most commonly used controller for hobbyist conversions - Curtis - has
minimal runaway protection. Systems with Curtis controllers can be
configured to open the contactor when the accelerator is released. IMO,
this is the bare minimum for safety. But some users defeat even this
feature because they don't like the "clack-clack" of the contactor opening
and closing. These folks are depending on their ability to shut off the
keyswitch or open the main breaker if the controller should fail full-on -
if they are thinking about it at all. But by the time they're able to do
that, many of them will have already slammed into the car ahead, blasted
through the back of the garage, or run down the pedestrian.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would think that if you had a tach drive on the other shaft of your
motor that you could rig up a speed control that would open a contactor
if the RPM went above a certain point. Maybe a sawtooth wave generator
that triggers an op-amp fired contactor?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 12:58
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Safety of inverter/controller or whole system? (Re:
Tesla...)
Seems like all of this could be a reason to keep a clutch in a DC
conversion? You can always put the clutch in (even if that does result
in the motor exploding, that's less catastrphic than ramming the car in
front of you or launching over a cliff)
Z
On 6/11/07, David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At the risk of being repetitive, and dragging out a thread that
> already has gone on quite a long time, let me emphasize that my
> concern is over the ubiquity of DC systems with little or no runaway
safeguard protection.
>
> It's pretty easy to make a DC controller with few or no safeguards,
> and I'd venture to say that the majority used by hobbyists has been
made this way.
> Of course, a designer could stint on safety in an AC inverter, too.
> While (as I understand it, I'm not a EE) full-on failure of an AC
> inverter can't happen through catastrophic failure of the power
> devices, probably the most common failure, in theory I suppose it
> could happen through a logic circuit failure or even a firmware bug.
>
> So why don't the common DC controllers have built in logic to shut
> down in the event of a detected runaway, as the Zilla does? I think
> that part of it is because most of these controllers are really
> repurposed golf car and industrial vehicle controllers. A golf car
> unintentionally going full speed ahead (what, 15 mph?) is pretty
> unsettling, but a road EV out of control and headed for 75 or 80 mph
> is deadly. If all else fails, a golfer with a zorched controller can
> drive round in circles on the golf course until the battery is flat.
Try that with a road EV that's going full bore.
>
> Also, many EV hobbyists are either poor or cheap. They can't or won't
> pay extra for safety features - just ask Rich about the reception he's
> gotten for full isolation, which would enhance safety, in his
> chargers. (I'm not saying all EVers are like that, but many are.)
>
> The most commonly used controller for hobbyist conversions - Curtis -
> has minimal runaway protection. Systems with Curtis controllers can
> be configured to open the contactor when the accelerator is released.
> IMO, this is the bare minimum for safety. But some users defeat even
> this feature because they don't like the "clack-clack" of the
> contactor opening and closing. These folks are depending on their
> ability to shut off the keyswitch or open the main breaker if the
> controller should fail full-on - if they are thinking about it at all.
> But by the time they're able to do that, many of them will have
> already slammed into the car ahead, blasted through the back of the
garage, or run down the pedestrian.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Want
> to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = =
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the
> webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
http://www.cafeelectric.com/blog/?p=8 I couldn't believe the comments
there. Lawrence Rhodes
************************************** I noticed the dates on the blog.
Having taught college physics and electronics for 30 years, and driving
an EV,
and reading the blog, the more respect I have for Otmar.
John in Sylmar, CA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "JS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: Embarrassing Moments , Was: EV's are less maintenance?
"Soon after I got my EV I drove away with the charger cable trailing
from the passenger door.. Somehow didn't run it over but had to stop
and retrieve it amid bemused onlookers.
You only do that once, and then you install a proper charge socket
with an interlock switch :) "
Got an interlock switch. Tested it. Didn't work. Still awaiting repair.
Hi JS an' EVerybody;
Part of the "EV Experiance" I STILL have a few 'stench chords thsat are
skinned up, but still useable, to remind me of THAT day. Drove off trailing
a 50 foot "Tail"!Doing 50 or so down the road with guyz in gassers flashing
their lites and tooting at me before I saw WHY! I guess I shoulda scene the
increased amp draw??
With the contacter controller I couldn't go with it plugged in. The
interlock wouldn't let me pull in the line switch, and the batteries were
hooked up in series for charging. But THAT didn't help IF the chord was
unplugged at the House end!Nawadaze I just walk around the car BEFORE a
launch!
Seeya
Bob
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database:
269.8.14/845 - Release Date: 6/12/2007 6:39 AM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
220119051967
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Of course.
But, It'll be 120vac only. I just don't see much purpose to have a
240vac charger at home when my car sits in the driveway all night
every night anyway? Now, a 240vac charger at various stores around
town to recharge during the day would be nice.
Z
On 6/11/07, Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Good afternoon everyone,
Before I get too into developing this charging station database,
I thought I'd take a survey to see how many people would actually
volunteer their charger/120/240 outlet to an EV driver in the area.
Please take a second to complete this poll.
http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/?p=16
Thank you,
Brandon Kruger
http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/
http://cafepress.com/altfuel
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--- Begin Message ---
Yep if you think about what you could spend on a new car you could
instead do a really nice conversion and put up a solar array to
charge it. Then you would be spending nothing (unless you had
repairs) for the next 50 years... of course you will be buying new
batteries but there should be some pretty good ones out there in the
next few years. BTW has anyone figured out if it is cheaper to buy
gas or replace your lead pack every 5 or whatnot years?
On Jun 12, 2007, at 7:33 AM, Zeke Yewdall wrote:
Yeah.... if you just want cheap, an electric car looses. And any new
car loses. In grad school I drove a series of old 80's subarus.
Drove them till the cost of repairs exceeded the cost of a new one
(about $400), then got a new one. They get close to 30mpg, so fuel
isn't that much even at $4/gal (if you don't count external costs).
I'm not doing an electric car for the cost -- I'm doing it because
I've really wanted one for 15 years, and now I finally have the money
to buy more than a $400 car.
A new car now costs somewhere above $20k for most of them. I figure
that even if I do a really nice drive system and even perhaps some
LiON batteries, I can convert my truck for less than $35k -- less than
$15k if I stick with AGM's. Compared to driving a clunker, it's
damned expensive. But compared to a new car, I figure at worst it's a
wash.
On 6/12/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
True, the cheapest way to drive is probably to buy a clunker for
$200 and
drive it until it drops and then buy another.
Not counting the cost of gasoline, you could probably keep this up
for 30
years or more on just the initial cost of converting a vehicle to
electric.
> Sure, but it's even cheaper (still) to keep buying
> gasoline (unless you drive Hummer). So if money is
> absolute top priority, conversion makes no sense at all.
>
> At least today.
>
> Victor
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> True enough, however the number of people interested in EVs
shoots up
>> whenever gas prices jump up. This indicates that for many
people it's
>> more about economics than the enviroment.
>>
>> Many folks think they will save a bundle by building an EV, and
this
>> simply isn't true. You might save a little in the loong run,
but you
>> have
>> to spend a bundle up front.
>> A lot of folks (most) choke on this and decide to the cheaper
route,
>> which
>> currently means DC.
>
>
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If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of
legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do
whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a question. How does a motor lock up? what is holding it in
place? 1 leg of the 3-phase?
Tehben
On Jun 12, 2007, at 12:50 AM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
If I am driving on a curve at 60 miles an hour and there is a 1/2
second
of a locked wheel, I am no longer the driver, just a passenger. You
are
thinking of stright line open freeway only Victor.
I think the best way to sum this up is equal but different :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jun 12, 2007, at 1:11 AM, Cor van de Water wrote:
Since the max RPMs of an AC motor can be double the speed
of a DC motor, you can adjust the gearing to double the
starting torque again (half the gear ratio) but now you
have gained nothing: the motor is running at double speed
and it is immediately reduced to half, so you have the same
power and torque, no matter if you have a high voltage
or low voltage setup. Main drawbacks of high voltage are
the large nr of batteries required and the high wear of
the gearbox (or an impossible to find diff ratio).
Ok, but with an ICE there is hardly any torque until your up to
3500rpms or something. right? So you just have to treat an AC motor
more like a gas engine and not lock the tranny in second gear. There
is a reason for first gear you know.
Unless an ICE has more starting torque than and AC motor I don't see
what the problem is....???
Is this correct or am I missing something?
Tehben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 1:01 PM
Subject: RE: Safety of inverter/controller or whole system? (Re: Tesla...)
I would think that if you had a tach drive on the other shaft of your
motor that you could rig up a speed control that would open a contactor
if the RPM went above a certain point. Maybe a sawtooth wave generator
that triggers an op-amp fired contactor?
Yeah! Jody! GOOD idea going so far on runaways!IF yur running a
clutch?Although it may not save the wayward pedestrian, it COULD save the
clutch car! Full power will probably slip the clutch to a zillion RPM, to
kill the motor? Or as Michela, I think said about having a brake type knock
off switch to your main contacter. In a panic, MOST people under 90 years
old STOMP on the brake, rather than the gas!! Pressures that normally the
system wouldn't see? Now WHERE could ya buy a adjustable pressure switch to
plumb into your brake lines??This could be a very marketable safety thing
not too much money for us cheapo EV people!? THEN, still STOMPED on the
brake, they hit the "Red Button" to shut it down, and call AAA to come get
them? Of course before the flatbed arrives, they pull their fuses and split
the pack by unhooking a few batt. terminals.The Truck Guy uses the winch to
haul you on.!
I'm very old fashioned in driving an EV. I USE my clutch for starting
alotta times, I'm USED to driving a Standard, have been since 1957, when I
became street legal, and for several years before on the farm.I could reach
the pedals at an early age! So slipping a clutch, especially with a "lumpy"
contacter controller, becomes natural. And when I get there I put the car in
neutral, when parking, too.Just to be on the safe side, although I don't
know of ANY EV's just going off while parked?With my
belt-driven-off-the-motor power steering/vacuum brake setup I slip it for
the WONDERFUL power steering effect, while parking.The PS is one of the
great things with my "New" Jetta. A strong argument for kreeping the @#$%
clutch.
Seeya
Bob
Seeya
Bob> -----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 12:58
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Safety of inverter/controller or whole system? (Re:
Tesla...)
Seems like all of this could be a reason to keep a clutch in a DC
conversion? You can always put the clutch in (even if that does result
in the motor exploding, that's less catastrphic than ramming the car in
front of you or launching over a cliff)
Z
On 6/11/07, David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
At the risk of being repetitive, and dragging out a thread that
already has gone on quite a long time, let me emphasize that my
concern is over the ubiquity of DC systems with little or no runaway
safeguard protection.
It's pretty easy to make a DC controller with few or no safeguards,
and I'd venture to say that the majority used by hobbyists has been
made this way.
Of course, a designer could stint on safety in an AC inverter, too.
While (as I understand it, I'm not a EE) full-on failure of an AC
inverter can't happen through catastrophic failure of the power
devices, probably the most common failure, in theory I suppose it
could happen through a logic circuit failure or even a firmware bug.
So why don't the common DC controllers have built in logic to shut
down in the event of a detected runaway, as the Zilla does? I think
that part of it is because most of these controllers are really
repurposed golf car and industrial vehicle controllers. A golf car
unintentionally going full speed ahead (what, 15 mph?) is pretty
unsettling, but a road EV out of control and headed for 75 or 80 mph
is deadly. If all else fails, a golfer with a zorched controller can
drive round in circles on the golf course until the battery is flat.
Try that with a road EV that's going full bore.
Also, many EV hobbyists are either poor or cheap. They can't or won't
pay extra for safety features - just ask Rich about the reception he's
gotten for full isolation, which would enhance safety, in his
chargers. (I'm not saying all EVers are like that, but many are.)
The most commonly used controller for hobbyist conversions - Curtis -
has minimal runaway protection. Systems with Curtis controllers can
be configured to open the contactor when the accelerator is released.
IMO, this is the bare minimum for safety. But some users defeat even
this feature because they don't like the "clack-clack" of the
contactor opening and closing. These folks are depending on their
ability to shut off the keyswitch or open the main breaker if the
controller should fail full-on - if they are thinking about it at all.
But by the time they're able to do that, many of them will have
already slammed into the car ahead, blasted through the back of the
garage, or run down the pedestrian.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 2007-06-11 at 09:53 -0700, Marty wrote:
>
> Regarding the Siemens, I wonder if you could spline the inside
> of the
> taperlock cone and then use the same hub?
I have been doing a little research on this and found:
From:
http://www.evworld.com/blogs/index.cfm?page=blogentry&blogid=382&authorid=28&archive=0
The AC 55 motor has a splined output shaft rather than the more common
straight-keyed shaft found on most DC motors. Adapting this splined
shaft to the original flywheel and clutch assembly in the transaxle
required the purchase of a splined coupler with mating female splines
from a local bearing supply house. It was cheap at $49. Once I had the
coupler I had to convert it to a taper lock bushing by machining a
2-degree taper on the OD and then splitting it. The original flywheel
center mounting hole and bolt pattern would not allow an easy mating to
the taper lock hub so I bored out the center hole in the flywheel and
redrilled eight new mounting holes.
I found example splined taperlock hub products on the net, but none
that are close enough to our needs to adapt. But it suggests that a
common taperlock design could be done, with 2 different taper parts.
One for solid shafts and one for splined shafts. We could go further
and size the hub such that tapers for different diameter motor shafts
could be used.
---
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes. Most gasoline ICE have lousy torque below 2krpm and often below
3,000. At least the new 4 cylinder ones. Older ones (like pre
1970) had a different design and different spark advance curve, so
they weren't as bad for torque at say 1500rpm (they had low horsepower
though). Diesel's are alot better at lower rpm torque, but of
course they still can't start from a dead stop. Essentially, an ICE
has ZERO starting torque. Ever try pushing the gas pedal with the
engine off.... nothing happens. :)
The difference is that you have a clutch (or torque converter) to
allow the car to start from a stop, while keeping the engine turning.
If the AC motor also used a clutch, it couldn't possibly be worse than
the ICE engine, but if you are starting it from a dead stop, then I
don't know. The only AC EV I've driven is the factory ford ranger we
had at work, and it had very nice starting torque from a stop -- much
smoother feeling than the four cylinder ICE version. Wouldn't smoke
the tires, but for real world, do you need that? I used to use that
truck off-road and plowing through snowbanks (it plowed pretty good if
you hit them in reverse). We had a 3 or 4 mile loop road around all
the wind turbine test beds that we used it on, so the 25 mile range
wasn't an issue. Wish they still made them...
Z
On 6/12/07, Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Jun 12, 2007, at 1:11 AM, Cor van de Water wrote:
> Since the max RPMs of an AC motor can be double the speed
> of a DC motor, you can adjust the gearing to double the
> starting torque again (half the gear ratio) but now you
> have gained nothing: the motor is running at double speed
> and it is immediately reduced to half, so you have the same
> power and torque, no matter if you have a high voltage
> or low voltage setup. Main drawbacks of high voltage are
> the large nr of batteries required and the high wear of
> the gearbox (or an impossible to find diff ratio).
Ok, but with an ICE there is hardly any torque until your up to
3500rpms or something. right? So you just have to treat an AC motor
more like a gas engine and not lock the tranny in second gear. There
is a reason for first gear you know.
Unless an ICE has more starting torque than and AC motor I don't see
what the problem is....???
Is this correct or am I missing something?
Tehben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tehben,
Been wondering the same thing myself. Obviously, if
one of the windings on a PM motor shorts, it will
cause large braking torque. But not with the
induction motor. There is what they call DC injection
braking for industrial induction motor drives, where I
think one phase is excited with DC to provide some
braking. I think this is usually only available near
zero RPM. I cannot imagine the likelyhood of such an
occurrence resulting from a inverter failure.
Also, how will a series DC motor lock up from a
controller failure? The only way I see is if you
throw the reversing contactors. A short across the
motor leads would not cause a lock up. That happens
every PWM cycle thru the freewheeling diode.
Jeff
--- Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have a question. How does a motor lock up? what is
> holding it in
> place? 1 leg of the 3-phase?
>
> Tehben
>
>
> On Jun 12, 2007, at 12:50 AM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
> > If I am driving on a curve at 60 miles an hour and
> there is a 1/2
> > second
> > of a locked wheel, I am no longer the driver, just
> a passenger. You
> > are
> > thinking of stright line open freeway only Victor.
> >
> > I think the best way to sum this up is equal but
> different :-)
> >
>
>
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