EV Digest 6883
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: EV achilles' heel
by "Michael Wendell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV achilles' heel
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Toyota makes an EV
by "Alan Brinkman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV achilles' heel
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Solar tonneau cover
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV achilles' heel
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: EV achilles' heel
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Solar tonneau cover
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Solar tonneau cover
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Solar tonneau cover
by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Solar tonneau cover
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV achilles' heel
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Solar tonneau cover
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: UK Company Introduces Electric Sportscar with Altairnano Battery Pack
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Solar tonneau cover
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV achilles' heel
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Solar tonneau cover
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: EV achilles' heel
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: EV achilles' heel
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Solar tonneau cover
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Electric Motor---SAE Mag Article
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: gas taxes...
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
>> I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator
>
> given that the tesla roadster motor makes 170kWh shouldn't
> 30Kw generation be possible in a reasonably sized generator.
didn't we just spend more than a month discussing the innefficiencies of an
onboard (or trailered) generator? is it possible to put this information in
the FAQ somewhere and point all future discussions to that URL?
m.
Michael Wendell
Speedgoat Bicycles
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Win a $5000 custom mountain bike, and help fight breat cancer!
http://www.speedgoat.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
pusher trailer seems insane to me
Bob Rice wrote:
Hi Dan;
Some guys have used the front clip of a front wheel drive small
automatic car, setup like a trailer as a "pusher" setup. Tricky stuff
here is the controlling it from the EV cockpit. Ed Sharky out in CA
did a very neat VW Rabbit one as well as a clipped off VW Bug rear
end. I guess any reasonable small car can play, if yur handy setting
it up like a trailer, best as a FWD one, then you have all the
emmissions crap in place, so you are still a good clean citizen?
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff,
I was just thinking about something like this early today. An elderly
gentleman from our town is now using one of those three or four wheel
mobility type electric units to get around in. When he goes down the
side walk, and he does travel quite a distance, he has trouble at the
crosswalks, and on uneven surfaces he will tip the unit on its side. I
have contacted the city to repair one street / sidewalk connection to
make it smoother, and they came out quickly and got it done when they
heard that the fellow had fallen over. Making these units small to get
around the house / store is fine, but then when they are taken any
distance outside they hit an obstacle and then are unstable. I thought
that the seat could be on a pedestal and lowered when taking the unit in
uneven terrain, and possibly the front axle could move forward, and how
could you make the wheel base widen cheaply?
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 6:35 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Toyota makes an EV
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/news/04/1203_1e.html
but they only made 50 and there are no plans to sell them. No info on
top speed :-(
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G skrev:
The only problem with just having a generator on a trailer is you would
have to have a HUGE generator to power the car. The point of having a
pusher is to use it for driving long distances. Adding the generator
would allow you to charge the pack while pushing and at the site where
you were at. Just doing it with a generator won't be feasible because
of the added weight of such a large generator. You would have to have a
generator capable of 160 volts (for a 120 system) and about 200 amps
output. That's 32KW. Ouch.
it won't be huge let alone HUGE
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not sure if this is currently made and I'm sure it
isn't the only way but has some good info.
http://cafeelectric.com/SolarCharge/index.html.
--- Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I know this will not increase range dramatically but
> I was wondering
> if you were to put a solar array on the tonneau
> cover of your truck
> how would you charge the pack? Would you make it the
> same voltage as
> the pack and then just hook it to each end of the
> string so it was
> feeding current to the battery or if you were
> driving to the motor?
> Or would you need to plug it into a charger?
>
> Tehben
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You sound familiar with it. make it so
concision would be appreciated, don't just quote everything
Michael Wendell wrote:
I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator
given that the tesla roadster motor makes 170kWh shouldn't
30Kw generation be possible in a reasonably sized generator.
didn't we just spend more than a month discussing the innefficiencies of an
onboard (or trailered) generator? is it possible to put this information in
the FAQ somewhere and point all future discussions to that URL?
m.
Michael Wendell
Speedgoat Bicycles
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Win a $5000 custom mountain bike, and help fight breat cancer!
http://www.speedgoat.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The prius ICE runs at one specific rpm and uses a cvt arrangement to
power the vehicle. It also powers a 53K generator while doing that. If
you want to run a generator that is capable of charging the pack AND
pushing the vehicle it will have to be more than the average current
draw of the system. If cruising on EV only takes 200 amps then you will
need to generate close to 300 (100 for the extra weight of the generator
system) to be able to drive on the gen. The pusher is easily capable of
pushing the car with the weight, it might be able to run the generator
also but it might affect the fuel mileage so much that it is actually
more expensive than just driving an ICE vehicle where you want to go.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 13:02
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
Marty Hewes skrev:
> I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator that could
> double as a backup for the house or shop during a power failure. But
> don't kid yourself, it takes a big generator to extend range
> significantly,
given that the tesla roadster motor makes 170kWh shouldn't 30Kw
generation be possible in a reasonably sized generator.. there are stock
250cc standard motorcycle motors that make around 30horses afaik. turbo
can lift it higher
> and the setup is less efficient than driving a gas car.
how do you explain the prius then. my knowledge is tentative but I get
the impression that normal gas driving doesn't use the motor's least
inefficient point where as a generator could. so at to offset losses in
a seriel arrangement.
the GM volt prototype is the same I believe although we might never get
that if it was up to them
Dan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been working on exactly that idea.... The cover of my truck is
75" x 64" -- and a standard solar panel tends to be about 64" x 32"
long currently. So two of them would fit pretty nicely. About 350 to
360 watts total. Figure that they are only actually producing 75% of
that in full sun (because the sun isn't directly overhead, you've got
some dust on them, and they are hot). So you can get maybe 300 watts
-- for each hour of sun, another mile of driving. Not alot, but not
insignificant either -- if it was always parked in the sun, you might
get about 3 or 4 miles a day out of it.
Now, here we get to the problem -- standard panels are "24 volts" --
which actually means a working voltage around 30 volts (what you need
to reliably charge a "24 volt" battery bank). Two of them is only 60
volts. No go. If we are looking at a 120 or 144 volt battery pack,
we need either least 5 or 6 of these "24 volt" panels to charge it
directly. We can do it with smaller panels -- a 20 watt "12 volt"
panel is 21.3" x 17.7" I can fit 12 of these panels on the toneau
cover. Perfect for a 144 volt battery system. Though the total power
is now only 240 watts instead of 360 -- power density of smaller
panels is less because of more edge area. Now -- for charge control
I could either ignore it (since I am only producing 1.2 amps in full
sun), or put a separate little 12 volt charge controller for each
panel (a mini BMS of sorts)
The cost of the 12 little panels is $2,340. Plus another $396 for all
the little charge controllers.
IF we could do it with the two large panels, the cost for panels is
more like $1700 -- for 50% more power. Small panels are higher cost
per watt in addition to lower watts per square foot.
I can get higher voltage large panels if I go with Sanyo ones -- those
are around 55 volts working voltage -- three of them could charge a
120 volt battery pack at 195 watts each (585 watts total). And the
total cost would about $3100 for the panels. However, these panels
are 36" x 52" -- not a dimension that easily fits three of them on a
truck bed.
What we need is to feed the lower voltage system of panels into some
sort of voltage booster to allow it to charge a higher voltage battery
-- ah, but no one makes one of those. We can boost it to 120vac, then
back through a regular charger, but there are some serious control
issues with this. The regular charger wants to charge at maximum rate
-- and now it's got a very limited AC source -- that also varies
depending on exactly how much sun is on the panels. If it draws too
much, the AC voltage will drop out and the whole thing shuts off.
And, the inverter expects a nice uniform voltage from a battery --
otherwise if the input voltage exceeds 15 volts, it starts blowing
FETs. Ooops. I guess you could attach it to the auxilliary battery
(converters to hook a 48 volt solar array to a 12 volt battery are
easily available, though about $600), then have that charge the main
battery through a 2000 watt inverter, with a control relay set on a 13
volt to 15 volt hysteresis or something. But that's insanely
complicated, and you'd likely loose at least 40% of the power doing
it.
You can get boost converters to step 24 volts up to 48 volts -- so if
you could get to half of the required charging voltage, you could use
a bunch of those for segments of the battery bank perhaps?
If solar charging is what you want, it's way cheaper and more
effective to just put them on your house -- plus in alot of places,
you can then get the utility company to pay for half the cost. But if
you want charging right on the car no matter where you park it, it's a
fun idea.
Z
On 6/13/07, Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I know this will not increase range dramatically but I was wondering
if you were to put a solar array on the tonneau cover of your truck
how would you charge the pack? Would you make it the same voltage as
the pack and then just hook it to each end of the string so it was
feeding current to the battery or if you were driving to the motor?
Or would you need to plug it into a charger?
Tehben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This has been brought up before. Each panel is only capable of say 12V
at 1 amp or so. To make a set of panels big enough to charge over the
course of a full sunny day you are talking 15 panels for a 120V system.
Each panel for 12V is about 3 feet x 6 feet. Don't think you would get
15 panels on the tonneau cover. Maybe on a trailer you could leave at
your work and plug into when you get there. I know a few people have
tried that with some success.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tehben Dean
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 13:20
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Solar tonneau cover
I know this will not increase range dramatically but I was wondering if
you were to put a solar array on the tonneau cover of your truck how
would you charge the pack? Would you make it the same voltage as the
pack and then just hook it to each end of the string so it was feeding
current to the battery or if you were driving to the motor?
Or would you need to plug it into a charger?
Tehben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Idea, please run with it, or kill it. Years ago, I
took a wallwart (you know those black wall
transformers that step down 120vac to some lower
voltage, say 12volts) Anyhow, I would connect a 12
volt battery to the low voltage side of the
transformer momentarily as fast as I could with just a
simple switch, and see how long my friends could hold
onto the 120volt terminals. Kinda stupid, I know, but
couldn't one pulse the solar panels (12volts) voltage
on the transformer, and get 120 volts out, and then
rectify that to DC? Just use a bigger more current
capacity transformer for the project.
--- Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Not sure if this is currently made and I'm sure it
> isn't the only way but has some good info.
> http://cafeelectric.com/SolarCharge/index.html.
>
>
> --- Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I know this will not increase range dramatically
> but
> > I was wondering
> > if you were to put a solar array on the tonneau
> > cover of your truck
> > how would you charge the pack? Would you make it
> the
> > same voltage as
> > the pack and then just hook it to each end of the
> > string so it was
> > feeding current to the battery or if you were
> > driving to the motor?
> > Or would you need to plug it into a charger?
> >
> > Tehben
> >
> >
>
>
M. Barkley
www.texomaev.com
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1135
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah, looks like he's put some sort of output circuit on the inverter
rectifying the 120vac to charge the batteries directly (without going
through a regular AC-DC charger). And a feedback control circuit on
that output circuit that draws just enough current to regulate the
12vdc input to stay between 14.2 and 14.7 volts to keep from
overloading or overvoltaging the inverter. Pretty neat. I'll
probably buy one if nothing else has cropped up by the time I get
around to it.
And, he's come up with the same conclusion that I did. If you are
serious about solar energy, vs a nice trickle charger, put them on
your house :) I have 3.6kW of panels there.
Z
On 6/13/07, Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Not sure if this is currently made and I'm sure it
isn't the only way but has some good info.
http://cafeelectric.com/SolarCharge/index.html.
--- Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I know this will not increase range dramatically but
> I was wondering
> if you were to put a solar array on the tonneau
> cover of your truck
> how would you charge the pack? Would you make it the
> same voltage as
> the pack and then just hook it to each end of the
> string so it was
> feeding current to the battery or if you were
> driving to the motor?
> Or would you need to plug it into a charger?
>
> Tehben
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
even if true, I don't want to charge the batteries using the ice. it is
to be used only in the event you have to go further than battery
capacity. it doesn't make sense to charge batteries with fossil fuel.
when your journey is done you recharge the car using normal means. it is
a range extender. will only run when the battery is dry. and with
electric transmission
Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
The prius ICE runs at one specific rpm and uses a cvt arrangement to
power the vehicle. It also powers a 53K generator while doing that. If
you want to run a generator that is capable of charging the pack AND
pushing the vehicle it will have to be more than the average current
draw of the system. If cruising on EV only takes 200 amps then you will
need to generate close to 300 (100 for the extra weight of the generator
system) to be able to drive on the gen. The pusher is easily capable of
pushing the car with the weight, it might be able to run the generator
also but it might affect the fuel mileage so much that it is actually
more expensive than just driving an ICE vehicle where you want to go.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 13:02
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
Marty Hewes skrev:
I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator that could
double as a backup for the house or shop during a power failure. But
don't kid yourself, it takes a big generator to extend range
significantly,
given that the tesla roadster motor makes 170kWh shouldn't 30Kw
generation be possible in a reasonably sized generator.. there are stock
250cc standard motorcycle motors that make around 30horses afaik. turbo
can lift it higher
and the setup is less efficient than driving a gas car.
how do you explain the prius then. my knowledge is tentative but I get
the impression that normal gas driving doesn't use the motor's least
inefficient point where as a generator could. so at to offset losses in
a seriel arrangement.
the GM volt prototype is the same I believe although we might never get
that if it was up to them
Dan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A 12 volt 1 amp panel is only about 2 foot square. the 3 x 5 foot
panels are about 30 volts 7 amps usually. But your point still stands
-- there is no way to get enough area on a toneau cover to make much
difference.
Actually, most manufacturers don't make 12 volt panels much any more.
The big market is for grid connected PV systems, which all operate
around 200 to 500 volts DC -- that's why the change towards higher
voltage panels, because you need fewer of them to get to the required
voltage.
On 6/13/07, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
This has been brought up before. Each panel is only capable of say 12V
at 1 amp or so. To make a set of panels big enough to charge over the
course of a full sunny day you are talking 15 panels for a 120V system.
Each panel for 12V is about 3 feet x 6 feet. Don't think you would get
15 panels on the tonneau cover. Maybe on a trailer you could leave at
your work and plug into when you get there. I know a few people have
tried that with some success.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tehben Dean
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 13:20
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Solar tonneau cover
I know this will not increase range dramatically but I was wondering if
you were to put a solar array on the tonneau cover of your truck how
would you charge the pack? Would you make it the same voltage as the
pack and then just hook it to each end of the string so it was feeding
current to the battery or if you were driving to the motor?
Or would you need to plug it into a charger?
Tehben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde wrote:
> Wow. I am so impressed! 0 to 60 in four seconds and doing
> that with only 2132 foot pounds of torque. That is
> unbelievably amazing!!! I am going to run out and post
> this phenomenal feat everywhere I can think of. This will
> turn the automotive world upside down. This ain't one of
> those wimpy DC cars like Wayland has with only 772 foot
> pounds of torque. As the press release says: "Each HPD40
> drive unit offers maximum torque of 750 Nm (533 lb-ft)."
Not so quick, Rod. First of all, John has yet to get the 'Zombie on a
dyno, so "772ft-lbs" is so far just an educated guess; he may in fact
have more, or less - we won't know until it is measured.
Secondly, John's 772ft-lbs is the motor torque, which then gets
multiplied by the final drive ratio to something north of 3000ft-lbs
(3088 assuming 4:1 final ratio) at the wheels. The HPD40's are wheel
motors, so their torque is wheel torque.
It should be impressive if they are getting a similar 4s 0-60 (unless
John has revised his estimate lately) as the Zombie with 33% less torque
than John estimates the Zombie to have.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,
With the panels on your house, do you have the 240V hooked
directly to your pack or do you make AC and then power a charger with
that? How long does it take to charge your EV with it?
jody
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Hastings
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 13:42
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Solar tonneau cover
Not sure if this is currently made and I'm sure it isn't the only way
but has some good info.
http://cafeelectric.com/SolarCharge/index.html.
--- Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I know this will not increase range dramatically but I was wondering
> if you were to put a solar array on the tonneau cover of your truck
> how would you charge the pack? Would you make it the same voltage as
> the pack and then just hook it to each end of the string so it was
> feeding current to the battery or if you were driving to the motor?
> Or would you need to plug it into a charger?
>
> Tehben
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Wendell wrote:
I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator
given that the tesla roadster motor makes 170kWh shouldn't
30Kw generation be possible in a reasonably sized generator.
didn't we just spend more than a month discussing the innefficiencies of an
onboard (or trailered) generator? is it possible to put this information in
the FAQ somewhere and point all future discussions to that URL?
m.
Michael Wendell
Speedgoat Bicycles
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Win a $5000 custom mountain bike, and help fight breat cancer!
http://www.speedgoat.com
Might some numbers help to illustrate?
Winco 15KW constant/18KW surge portable (designed to be lightweight)
generator with Vanguard engine (good brand used by many contractors) ->
Brushless design, self regulating
31HP OHV gasoline engine
Keyed electric start
550 lbs
41" x 26.75" x 29"
15 gallon tank
10.5 hours at 50% load
$4999.99 MSRP
Now we take a 300Wh/mile EV (someone correct the armchair figurin' if
necessary) ->
300Wh/mile * 50 miles (50MPH) = 15kWh over the course of an hour = 15kW
(125A @ 120V) to go 50MPH
So... given a *new*, relatively very efficient generator, and a
reasonably efficient EV, we could drive *without* any net charging of
the pack with a fuel efficiency of ->
15 gallons / 5.25 hours (it will actually be less run time then that at
100% load) = 50 miles (1 hour) @ 2.857 gallons an hour = 17.5 MPG
These are simple, straightforward "test of concept" numbers that you can
run with any generator/EV combination using published numbers. And they
give you "better then possible" results, since they do not take into
account rectification and other such losses.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The problem with charging directly from solar is that you can only
charge when it is sunny. And if you are NOT charging when it is
sunny, you are wasting solar electricity that you paid for....
If the utility allows you to connect, that system will be way cheaper.
If they don't, then you may have to design a system that charges the
car directly from solar, and plan on it being at home during the day
instead of charging at night.
Z
On 6/13/07, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Mark,
With the panels on your house, do you have the 240V hooked
directly to your pack or do you make AC and then power a charger with
that? How long does it take to charge your EV with it?
jody
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Hastings
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 13:42
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Solar tonneau cover
Not sure if this is currently made and I'm sure it isn't the only way
but has some good info.
http://cafeelectric.com/SolarCharge/index.html.
--- Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I know this will not increase range dramatically but I was wondering
> if you were to put a solar array on the tonneau cover of your truck
> how would you charge the pack? Would you make it the same voltage as
> the pack and then just hook it to each end of the string so it was
> feeding current to the battery or if you were driving to the motor?
> Or would you need to plug it into a charger?
>
> Tehben
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As a range extender you would still need to be capable of at least 50 to
100 amps to help. Anything less isnt adding enough to make it
worthwhile. A 6KW generator would give you 50 amps at 160 rectified
volts but that is 100% of its capacity. I know my 5500 watt generator
gets really hot when running at close to 30 amps draw. I guess to
figure out how much it would help is to take say a 200 amp draw and
calculate how far your EV could go and then do the same range
calculation with 150 amp draw. If it would increase worth the added 150
pounds (generator plus fuel) then maybe it would be worthwhile.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 14:09
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
even if true, I don't want to charge the batteries using the ice. it is
to be used only in the event you have to go further than battery
capacity. it doesn't make sense to charge batteries with fossil fuel.
when your journey is done you recharge the car using normal means. it is
a range extender. will only run when the battery is dry. and with
electric transmission
Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
> The prius ICE runs at one specific rpm and uses a cvt arrangement to
> power the vehicle. It also powers a 53K generator while doing that.
> If you want to run a generator that is capable of charging the pack
> AND pushing the vehicle it will have to be more than the average
> current draw of the system. If cruising on EV only takes 200 amps
> then you will need to generate close to 300 (100 for the extra weight
> of the generator
> system) to be able to drive on the gen. The pusher is easily capable
> of pushing the car with the weight, it might be able to run the
> generator also but it might affect the fuel mileage so much that it is
> actually more expensive than just driving an ICE vehicle where you
want to go.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 13:02
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
>
> Marty Hewes skrev:
>
>> I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator that could
>> double as a backup for the house or shop during a power failure. But
>> don't kid yourself, it takes a big generator to extend range
>> significantly,
>>
> given that the tesla roadster motor makes 170kWh shouldn't 30Kw
> generation be possible in a reasonably sized generator.. there are
> stock 250cc standard motorcycle motors that make around 30horses
> afaik. turbo can lift it higher
>
>> and the setup is less efficient than driving a gas car.
>>
> how do you explain the prius then. my knowledge is tentative but I get
> the impression that normal gas driving doesn't use the motor's least
> inefficient point where as a generator could. so at to offset losses
> in a seriel arrangement.
>
> the GM volt prototype is the same I believe although we might never
> get that if it was up to them
>
> Dan
>
>
>
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Plus you have to take into account the added 550 pounds of generator
right? And the fuel required for the distance?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Stefan Peters
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 14:28
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
Michael Wendell wrote:
>>> I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator
>>>
>> given that the tesla roadster motor makes 170kWh shouldn't 30Kw
>> generation be possible in a reasonably sized generator.
>>
>
> didn't we just spend more than a month discussing the innefficiencies
> of an onboard (or trailered) generator? is it possible to put this
> information in the FAQ somewhere and point all future discussions to
that URL?
>
> m.
>
> Michael Wendell
> Speedgoat Bicycles
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Win a $5000 custom mountain bike, and help fight breat cancer!
> http://www.speedgoat.com
>
>
>
Might some numbers help to illustrate?
Winco 15KW constant/18KW surge portable (designed to be lightweight)
generator with Vanguard engine (good brand used by many contractors) ->
Brushless design, self regulating
31HP OHV gasoline engine
Keyed electric start
550 lbs
41" x 26.75" x 29"
15 gallon tank
10.5 hours at 50% load
$4999.99 MSRP
Now we take a 300Wh/mile EV (someone correct the armchair figurin' if
necessary) ->
300Wh/mile * 50 miles (50MPH) = 15kWh over the course of an hour = 15kW
(125A @ 120V) to go 50MPH
So... given a *new*, relatively very efficient generator, and a
reasonably efficient EV, we could drive *without* any net charging of
the pack with a fuel efficiency of ->
15 gallons / 5.25 hours (it will actually be less run time then that at
100% load) = 50 miles (1 hour) @ 2.857 gallons an hour = 17.5 MPG
These are simple, straightforward "test of concept" numbers that you can
run with any generator/EV combination using published numbers. And they
give you "better then possible" results, since they do not take into
account rectification and other such losses.
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I have seen some people who park a solar array at work on a trailer that
they plug into when they get there. That way the 8 hours the car sits
in the parking lot it is charged from the array.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 14:30
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Solar tonneau cover
The problem with charging directly from solar is that you can only
charge when it is sunny. And if you are NOT charging when it is sunny,
you are wasting solar electricity that you paid for....
If the utility allows you to connect, that system will be way cheaper.
If they don't, then you may have to design a system that charges the
car directly from solar, and plan on it being at home during the day
instead of charging at night.
Z
On 6/13/07, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mark,
>
> With the panels on your house, do you have the 240V hooked
> directly to your pack or do you make AC and then power a charger with
> that? How long does it take to charge your EV with it?
>
> jody
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Mark Hastings
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 13:42
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Solar tonneau cover
>
> Not sure if this is currently made and I'm sure it isn't the only way
> but has some good info.
> http://cafeelectric.com/SolarCharge/index.html.
>
>
> --- Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I know this will not increase range dramatically but I was wondering
> > if you were to put a solar array on the tonneau cover of your truck
> > how would you charge the pack? Would you make it the same voltage as
> > the pack and then just hook it to each end of the string so it was
> > feeding current to the battery or if you were driving to the motor?
> > Or would you need to plug it into a charger?
> >
> > Tehben
> >
> >
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I like to read a lot of the articles posted by Bruce
Parmenter. Thanks, Bruce. I just received this
month's issue of Automotive Engineering, SAE
International. Interesting article on page 21 by
Stuart Birch. He says "Harald Wester, Fiat Group
Automobiles' Chief Technical Officer, Engineering and
Design, sees the electric motor eventually becoming
the premier form of motive power for road vehicles."
But we all knew that.......
Jeff
____________________________________________________________________________________
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
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--- Begin Message ---
That works into the growing plans for a government GPS system installed
in every vehicle that assesses a per-mile tax instead of a fuel tax.
Easy to see that it is impossible to guarantee your behavior is not
being recorded and tracked.
This system would result in an EV being taxed at the same rate as a
Hummer and would end this one area of tax incentive to use less fuel.
I'm sure GM is endorsing the concept because high consumption vehicles
have the highest profit margins.
Danny
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
1) guy converts diesel to run on veggie oil.
2) NC tax people come after him, wanting his first born, for "tax"
reasons.
The gist of my concern (in the article) is:
Folks that use the road, have to pay road-use taxes, which are bundled
into the price of gasoline and diesel.
Of course, Electric Vehicles don't pay this tax....because we don't use
gasoline.
Moreover, vehicles that get better fuel economy pay less tax (I found an
article about that - be prepared in the future for the DMV to begin
retrieving our odometer readings for miles-driven taxation purposes; who
knows, probably already happens in some states, and certainly does for
"business" or personally owned "business use" vehicles).
Here's the math (its simple, even I can do it).
Average miles traveled: 12000
Average MPG (for my camry): 22
Thats ~ 545 gallons.
NC charges 29.9 cents a gallon (according to the article).
(I'm sure its more like 29.999 cents)
.299 * 545 = ~ 162...
Thats $162 a year in taxes (NC State)
This website
http://www.gaspricewatch.com/usgastaxes.asp
indicates Federal tax is 18.4 cents per gallon.
18.4 * 545 = ~100.28
(What are the federal and state taxes on our electric bill? I donno,
haven't looked; I would guess that this *could* be subtracted, to keep the
SOBs in government totally honest).
(note: I don't like big government; I could go on, but I doubt you'd
appreciate it).
Anyway.
The article states that this guy is getting charged $1000 fine, for NC
state taxes (what about county? city?).
Either way, I'm concerned.
(Finally) - Here's my question:
Are the Tax people going to come after us (I use "us" as a generic term;
us EVers, or more specifically, us NC EVers...) because uncle thief wants
more tax revenue?
What recourse do we have (federally, or statewise) - if any?
Has anyone heard of this happening before?
Do we get rewarded (pay less tax) because we're trying to "save the
environment" - "protect the US from terrorists by not giving them money"
(etc, pick a reason for why you drive electric).
Additional comments, and Charlotte Observer article below...
I'd like to own a gas station, and say "Gasoline, $2.00 a gallon, PLUS TAX
(to let people know how much the government gets).
If folks knew how much tax they paid, think they'd get a little upset?
(I'm sure thats why the politicos hide as much tax as they can).
Note: I'm not trying to "get one over on the government that provides the
roads" - I should "help pay" for the road. Not a problem.
Please don't carp about me trying to avoid "paying my fair share" -
What I don't want is for the evil succubus tax person to come after me 3
years hence, and decide I should pay $5k in taxes, and another $10k in
fines.
http://www.charlotte.com/112/story/153260.html
THOSE WHO MAKE THEIR OWN ENVIRONMENT-FRIENDLY GAS CAN AVOID PAIN AT THE
PUMP BUT NOT THE TAXES.
A price to pay for alternative fuels
BRUCE HENDERSON
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bob Teixeira re-applies a sticker touting an alternative fuel he uses in
his car. He plans to fight to change fuel-tax laws that have hit his
wallet.Bob Teixeira decided it was time to take a stand against U.S.
dependence on foreign oil.
So last fall the Charlotte musician and guitar instructor spent $1,200 to
convert his 1981 diesel Mercedes to run on vegetable oil. He bought
soybean oil in 5-gallon jugs at Costco, spending about 30 percent more
than diesel would cost.
His reward, from a state that heavily promotes alternative fuels: a $1,000
fine last month for not paying motor fuel taxes.
He's been told to expect another $1,000 fine from the federal government.
And to legally use veggie oil, state officials told him, he would have to
first post a $2,500 bond.
Teixeira is one of a growing number of fuel-it-yourselfers -- backyard
brewers who recycle restaurant grease or make moonshine for their car
tanks. They do it to save money, reduce pollution or thumb their noses at
oil sheiks.
They're also caught in a web of little-known state laws that can stifle
energy independence.
State Sen. Stan Bingham, R-Davidson, is known around Raleigh for his
diesel Volkswagen fueled by used soybean oil. The car sports a "Goodbye,
OPEC" sign.
"If somebody was going to go to this much trouble to drive around in a car
that uses soybean oil, they ought to be exempt" from state taxes, he said.
The N.C. Department of Revenue, which fined Teixeira, has asked
legislators to waive the $2,500 bond for small fuel users. The department
also told Teixeira, after the Observer asked about his case this week,
that it will compromise on his fine.
But officials say they'll keep pursuing taxes on all fuels used in highway
vehicles. With its 29.9-cent a gallon gas tax, the state collects $1.2
billion each year to pay for road construction.
"With the high cost of fuel right now, the department does recognize that
a lot of people are looking for relief," said Reggie Little, assistant
director of the motor fuel taxes division. "We're not here to hurt the
small guy, we're just trying to make sure that the playing field is
level."
Use promoted, little regulation
State policies firmly endorse alternative fuels.In 2005 legislators
directed state agencies to replace 20 percent of their annual petroleum
use with alternatives by 2010. About 6,000 of the state's 8,500 vehicles
are equipped to use ethanol. The state fleet also includes about 135
gas-electric hybrids.
Few states, however, are prepared to regulate the new fuels, says the
National VegOil Board, which promotes vegetable oil fuel.
"State offices do not have the forms to appropriately and fairly deal with
VegOil, nor the staff to enforce the non-existent forms," said director
Cynthia Shelton. "So either they tell people inquiring about compliance to
get lost, or they make them jump through a bunch of arbitrary hoops."
Outraged Illinois legislators this spring quickly waived that state's
$2,500 bond requirement when an elderly man was nabbed for using waste
vegetable oil.
In the mountain district of state Sen. John Snow, D-Cherokee, home-brewed
ethanol was once known as moonshine. But a couple of constituents who made
it for fuel have been fined for the same tax violation that got Teixeira
in trouble.
Snow has introduced several bills to promote biodiesel, which under state
law includes vegetable oil.
"One of the biggest problems in the state is a real lack of information
for people who want to use alternative fuels," said Snow's research
assistant, Jonathan Ducote. "It's just now appearing on (regulators')
radar."
Done in by bumper sticker
Teixeira's story began near Lowe's Motor Speedway on May 14. As
recreational vehicles streamed in for race week, revenue investigators
were checking fuel tanks of diesel RVs for illegal fuel.
The investigators quickly spotted Teixeira's passing bumper sticker:
"Powered by 100% vegetable oil."
"It was like some twist of fate that put me there," he said. "It was like
I was asking for them to stop me."
Teixeira says revenue officials are just doing their jobs. But he thinks
it's unfair that he was lumped with people who purposely try to avoid fuel
taxes.
"Individuals who are trying to do the right thing environmentally cannot
and should not continue to take this kind of financial hit," he wrote Gov.
Mike Easley.
Teixeira says he'll pay the state fine and apply for a state fuel license.
But pumping regular diesel again "broke my heart."
"I'm ready to get myself legal," he said, "and start using vegetable oil
again."
Alternative Fuel Vehicles*
North CarolinaDiesel 118,479
Flex fuel 121,547
(ethanol capable)
Hybrid 11,758
Total 251,784
South Carolina
Diesel 54,786
Flex fuel 68,303
Hybrid 3,264
Total 126,353
*Registered as of July 2006
SOURCE: Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers
More on Fuel Taxes
Piedmont Biofuels, a biodiesel cooperative in Pittsboro, posts links to
state tax laws on its Web site: http://biofuels.coop/general
-information/taxes//. The N.C. Department of Revenue's motor fuels tax
division has a toll-free number: 877-308-9092.
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