EV digest 6882

Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:36:51 -0700 

                            EV Digest 6882

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: gas taxes...
        by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: EV achilles' heel
        by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) RE: EV achilles' heel
        by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) RE: Fined for not paying gas tax
        by "David S" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: EV achilles' heel
        by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Fined for not paying gas tax
        by "Randall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: gas taxes...
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Towing an EV
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: EV achilles' heel
        by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: EV achilles' heel
        by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) RE: Grassroots charging infrastructure
        by "Chuck Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 13) Re: Safety of inverter/motor lockup
        by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Solar tonneau cover
        by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: Grassroots charging infrastructure
        by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) RE: Sorry to Dan and the list
        by "Michael Wendell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
        by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message --- If this is the logic then shouldn't ev'ers get a discount refund for the support of the 7th fleet which is primarily used to protect gulf oil interests? Since ev'ers don't need the 7th fleet or their oil they are protecting. 

On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 6:55 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

1) guy converts diesel to run on veggie oil.
2) NC tax people come after him, wanting his first born, for "tax"
reasons.

The gist of my concern (in the article) is:

Folks that use the road, have to pay road-use taxes, which are bundled
into the price of gasoline and diesel.
Of course, Electric Vehicles don't pay this tax....because we don't use
gasoline.
Moreover, vehicles that get better fuel economy pay less tax (I found an 
article about that - be prepared in the future for the DMV to begin
retrieving our odometer readings for miles-driven taxation purposes; who 
knows, probably already happens in some states, and certainly does for
"business" or personally owned "business use" vehicles).


Here's the math (its simple, even I can do it).
Average miles traveled: 12000
Average MPG (for my camry): 22
Thats ~ 545 gallons.

NC charges 29.9 cents a gallon (according to the article).
(I'm sure its more like 29.999 cents)
.299 * 545 = ~ 162...
Thats $162 a year in taxes (NC State)
This website
http://www.gaspricewatch.com/usgastaxes.asp
indicates Federal tax is 18.4 cents per gallon.
18.4 * 545 = ~100.28

(What are the federal and state taxes on our electric bill? I donno,
haven't looked; I would guess that this *could* be subtracted, to keep the 
SOBs in government totally honest).
(note: I don't like big government; I could go on, but I doubt you'd
appreciate it).

Anyway.

The article states that this guy is getting charged $1000 fine, for NC
state taxes (what about county? city?).

Either way, I'm concerned.
(Finally) - Here's my question:
Are the Tax people going to come after us (I use "us" as a generic term; us EVers, or more specifically, us NC EVers...) because uncle thief wants 
more tax revenue?
What recourse do we have (federally, or statewise) - if any?
Has anyone heard of this happening before?
Do we get rewarded (pay less tax) because we're trying to "save the
environment" - "protect the US from terrorists by not giving them money" 
(etc, pick a reason for why you drive electric).

Additional comments, and Charlotte Observer article below...
I'd like to own a gas station, and say "Gasoline, $2.00 a gallon, PLUS TAX 
(to let people know how much the government gets).
If folks knew how much tax they paid, think they'd get a little upset?
(I'm sure thats why the politicos hide as much tax as they can).
Note: I'm not trying to "get one over on the government that provides the 
roads" - I should "help pay" for the road. Not a problem.
Please don't carp about me trying to avoid "paying my fair share" -
What I don't want is for the evil succubus tax person to come after me 3 
years hence, and decide I should pay $5k in taxes, and another $10k in
fines.



http://www.charlotte.com/112/story/153260.html




THOSE WHO MAKE THEIR OWN ENVIRONMENT-FRIENDLY GAS CAN AVOID PAIN AT THE
PUMP BUT NOT THE TAXES.
A price to pay for alternative fuels
BRUCE HENDERSON
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bob Teixeira re-applies a sticker touting an alternative fuel he uses in 
his car. He plans to fight to change fuel-tax laws that have hit his
wallet.Bob Teixeira decided it was time to take a stand against U.S.
dependence on foreign oil.
So last fall the Charlotte musician and guitar instructor spent $1,200 to 
convert his 1981 diesel Mercedes to run on vegetable oil. He bought
soybean oil in 5-gallon jugs at Costco, spending about 30 percent more
than diesel would cost.
His reward, from a state that heavily promotes alternative fuels: a $1,000 
fine last month for not paying motor fuel taxes.
He's been told to expect another $1,000 fine from the federal government.
And to legally use veggie oil, state officials told him, he would have to 
first post a $2,500 bond.

Teixeira is one of a growing number of fuel-it-yourselfers -- backyard
brewers who recycle restaurant grease or make moonshine for their car
tanks. They do it to save money, reduce pollution or thumb their noses at 
oil sheiks.

They're also caught in a web of little-known state laws that can stifle
energy independence.

State Sen. Stan Bingham, R-Davidson, is known around Raleigh for his
diesel Volkswagen fueled by used soybean oil. The car sports a "Goodbye, 
OPEC" sign.
"If somebody was going to go to this much trouble to drive around in a car that uses soybean oil, they ought to be exempt" from state taxes, he said. 

The N.C. Department of Revenue, which fined Teixeira, has asked
legislators to waive the $2,500 bond for small fuel users. The department 
also told Teixeira, after the Observer asked about his case this week,
that it will compromise on his fine.
But officials say they'll keep pursuing taxes on all fuels used in highway 
vehicles. With its 29.9-cent a gallon gas tax, the state collects $1.2
billion each year to pay for road construction.
"With the high cost of fuel right now, the department does recognize that 
a lot of people are looking for relief," said Reggie Little, assistant
director of the motor fuel taxes division. "We're not here to hurt the
small guy, we're just trying to make sure that the playing field is
level."

Use promoted, little regulation

State policies firmly endorse alternative fuels.In 2005 legislators
directed state agencies to replace 20 percent of their annual petroleum
use with alternatives by 2010. About 6,000 of the state's 8,500 vehicles 
are equipped to use ethanol. The state fleet also includes about 135
gas-electric hybrids.

Few states, however, are prepared to regulate the new fuels, says the
National VegOil Board, which promotes vegetable oil fuel.
"State offices do not have the forms to appropriately and fairly deal with 
VegOil, nor the staff to enforce the non-existent forms," said director
Cynthia Shelton. "So either they tell people inquiring about compliance to 
get lost, or they make them jump through a bunch of arbitrary hoops."

Outraged Illinois legislators this spring quickly waived that state's
$2,500 bond requirement when an elderly man was nabbed for using waste
vegetable oil.
In the mountain district of state Sen. John Snow, D-Cherokee, home-brewed ethanol was once known as moonshine. But a couple of constituents who made it for fuel have been fined for the same tax violation that got Teixeira 
in trouble.
Snow has introduced several bills to promote biodiesel, which under state 
law includes vegetable oil.

"One of the biggest problems in the state is a real lack of information
for people who want to use alternative fuels," said Snow's research
assistant, Jonathan Ducote. "It's just now appearing on (regulators')
radar."

Done in by bumper sticker

Teixeira's story began near Lowe's Motor Speedway on May 14. As
recreational vehicles streamed in for race week, revenue investigators
were checking fuel tanks of diesel RVs for illegal fuel.

The investigators quickly spotted Teixeira's passing bumper sticker:
"Powered by 100% vegetable oil."
"It was like some twist of fate that put me there," he said. "It was like 
I was asking for them to stop me."
Teixeira says revenue officials are just doing their jobs. But he thinks it's unfair that he was lumped with people who purposely try to avoid fuel 
taxes.
"Individuals who are trying to do the right thing environmentally cannot and should not continue to take this kind of financial hit," he wrote Gov. 
Mike Easley.
Teixeira says he'll pay the state fine and apply for a state fuel license. 
But pumping regular diesel again "broke my heart."
"I'm ready to get myself legal," he said, "and start using vegetable oil 
again."

Alternative Fuel Vehicles*

North CarolinaDiesel 118,479

Flex fuel 121,547

(ethanol capable)

Hybrid 11,758

Total 251,784

South Carolina

Diesel 54,786

Flex fuel 68,303

Hybrid 3,264

Total 126,353

*Registered as of July 2006

SOURCE: Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers

More on Fuel Taxes

Piedmont Biofuels, a biodiesel cooperative in Pittsboro, posts links to
state tax laws on its Web site: http://biofuels.coop/general

-information/taxes//. The N.C. Department of Revenue's motor fuels tax
division has a toll-free number: 877-308-9092.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming and the melting poles. 

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I've had my eye on that one for a while. That and a cruiser bike motor designed to maintain decent RPM for hours might be cool. On the other hand, I saw a cool Onan air cooled twin cylinder gasser motor home generator that looked promising, and all the RPM regulation issues would already be worked out. It should be a simple conversion to switch that to propane to make it run cleaner. It may also be worth just picking up a backyard type backup generator and putting it on a trailer. I don't know what those weigh though. 

Marty
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 9:53 AM
Subject: RE: EV achilles' heel


If you wanted it for charging consider adding a power head from a
generator.  One can get a 10,000 watt power head from Harborfrieght for
$299.  Then use the car to push the EV on the road and when you get to
where you are going you can use the engine to charge the batteries.

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Hewes
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 10:50
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel

I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator that could
double as a backup for the house or shop during a power failure.  But
don't kid yourself, it takes a big generator to extend range
significantly, and the setup is less efficient than driving a gas car.
I'd consider it for things like getting the EV to a show or race instead
of trailering, and I needed on-site recharging anyway.  Otherwise I'd
drive something else.

Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 10:07 AM
Subject: EV achilles' heel



I think everyone can live with the cost of replacing lead acids once

in a

while, and the energy loss in them from common discharge and even

assuming

some heads would pop out of dark odorfilled areas and we would fix the



electronics cost for conversions we still have the EVs current

achilles'

heel, the range.

how many have tried using a small combustion engine for range

extension

in EVs? I imagine for instance a turbocharged 250cc motorcycle engine

or

even look into the possibility of using a tesla turbine because of

its

simplicity and potentially very compact size. (presumably run very
smoothly too)

anyone tried auxiliary combustion?  I know JB Straubel did a trailer

but

that was a full size car motor as opposed to a small onboard one.
is everyone driving pure EV?

Dan

  Hi Dan;


  Some guys have used the front clip of a front wheel drive small
automatic car, setup like a trailer as a "pusher" setup. Tricky stuff

here

is the controlling it from the EV cockpit. Ed Sharky out in CA did a

very

neat VW Rabbit one as well as a clipped off VW Bug rear end. I guess

any

reasonable small car can play, if yur handy setting it up like a

trailer,

best as a FWD one, then you have all the emmissions crap in place, so

you

are still a good clean citizen?

  Seeya

  Bob


--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database:
269.8.15/847 - Release Date: 6/12/2007 9:42 PM

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
The only problem with just having a generator on a trailer is you would
have to have a HUGE generator to power the car.  The point of having a
pusher is to use it for driving long distances.  Adding the generator
would allow you to charge the pack while pushing and at the site where
you were at.  Just doing it with a generator won't be feasible because
of the added weight of such a large generator.  You would have to have a
generator capable of 160 volts (for a 120 system) and about 200 amps
output.  That's 32KW.  Ouch. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Hewes
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 11:39
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel

I've had my eye on that one for a while.  That and a cruiser bike motor
designed to maintain decent RPM for hours might be cool.  On the other
hand, I saw a cool Onan air cooled twin cylinder gasser motor home
generator that looked promising, and all the RPM regulation issues would
already be worked out.  It should be a simple conversion to switch that
to propane to make it run cleaner.  It may also be worth just picking up
a backyard type backup generator and putting it on a trailer.  I don't
know what those weigh though.

Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 9:53 AM
Subject: RE: EV achilles' heel


If you wanted it for charging consider adding a power head from a
generator.  One can get a 10,000 watt power head from Harborfrieght for
$299.  Then use the car to push the EV on the road and when you get to
where you are going you can use the engine to charge the batteries.

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Hewes
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 10:50
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel

I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator that could
double as a backup for the house or shop during a power failure.  But
don't kid yourself, it takes a big generator to extend range
significantly, and the setup is less efficient than driving a gas car.
I'd consider it for things like getting the EV to a show or race instead
of trailering, and I needed on-site recharging anyway.  Otherwise I'd
drive something else.

Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel


>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 10:07 AM
> Subject: EV achilles' heel
>
>
>>I think everyone can live with the cost of replacing lead acids once
in a
>>while, and the energy loss in them from common discharge and even
assuming
>>some heads would pop out of dark odorfilled areas and we would fix the

>>electronics cost for conversions we still have the EVs current
achilles'
>>heel, the range.
>>
>> how many have tried using a small combustion engine for range
extension
>> in EVs? I imagine for instance a turbocharged 250cc motorcycle engine
or
>> even look into the possibility of using a tesla turbine because of
its
>> simplicity and potentially very compact size. (presumably run very
>> smoothly too)
>>
>> anyone tried auxiliary combustion?  I know JB Straubel did a trailer
but
>> that was a full size car motor as opposed to a small onboard one.
>> is everyone driving pure EV?
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>   Hi Dan;
>
>   Some guys have used the front clip of a front wheel drive small
> automatic car, setup like a trailer as a "pusher" setup. Tricky stuff
here
> is the controlling it from the EV cockpit. Ed Sharky out in CA did a
very
> neat VW Rabbit one as well as a clipped off VW Bug rear end. I guess
any
> reasonable small car can play, if yur handy setting it up like a
trailer,
> best as a FWD one, then you have all the emmissions crap in place, so
you
> are still a good clean citizen?
>
>   Seeya
>
>   Bob
>>
>> -- 
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database:
>> 269.8.15/847 - Release Date: 6/12/2007 9:42 PM
>>
>>
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
[QUOTE FROM ARTICLE]
"State offices do not have the forms to appropriately and fairly deal with
VegOil, nor the staff to enforce the non-existent forms," said director
Cynthia Shelton. "So either they tell people inquiring about compliance to
get lost, or they make them jump through a bunch of arbitrary hoops."
[END QOUTE]

If this is an verifiable quote from a state representative than this should
be a case where ignorance of the law is an acceptable offense. It sounds
like he could never had been in "Compliance" if he wanted to.

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Richard Acuti
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 9:32 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Fined for not paying gas tax

Obviously, this is outrageous and completely contradictory. It was good to 
read that in Illinois, the legislature fixed it pretty quickly.

It's exactly as I said in my earlier post about the DMV: Currently, the 
Federal, state and local governments have no idea how to properly & fairly 
regulate or inspect electric or other alternate fuel vehicles. Now I want to

be as fully in compliance of the law as possible but when the law isn't 
written to consider our particular circumstances, I'm not going to let some 
jackass at the DMV or some busybody "revenu'er" try to twist the existing 
law to apply to me, and then punish me.

We as a group, are obviously not trying to dodge taxes, we are trying to 
drive cleaner, cheaper and independently of foreign powers and domestic 
corporate entities.

I've got "EV pride" but I scraped the "electric vehicle" decals off my rear 
window a long time ago.

Rich A.

From: "David S" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Fined for not paying gas tax.
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:07:18 -0500
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Language: en-us

Driver ticketed for using biofuel
Vegetable oil sticks him with $1,000 fine

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/599471.html

Yes the article is biofuel but could be about any fuel including
electricity.

_________________________________________________________________
Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN 
http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
The home generators in the 12kW range are usually upwards of 600lbs --
they aren't designed to be moved so they go for longevity of design
and don't care about the weight.  But, they do come designed to run on
propane usually.

On 6/13/07, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

The only problem with just having a generator on a trailer is you would
have to have a HUGE generator to power the car.  The point of having a
pusher is to use it for driving long distances.  Adding the generator
would allow you to charge the pack while pushing and at the site where
you were at.  Just doing it with a generator won't be feasible because
of the added weight of such a large generator.  You would have to have a
generator capable of 160 volts (for a 120 system) and about 200 amps
output.  That's 32KW.  Ouch.

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Hewes
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 11:39
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel

I've had my eye on that one for a while.  That and a cruiser bike motor
designed to maintain decent RPM for hours might be cool.  On the other
hand, I saw a cool Onan air cooled twin cylinder gasser motor home
generator that looked promising, and all the RPM regulation issues would
already be worked out.  It should be a simple conversion to switch that
to propane to make it run cleaner.  It may also be worth just picking up
a backyard type backup generator and putting it on a trailer.  I don't
know what those weigh though.

Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 9:53 AM
Subject: RE: EV achilles' heel


If you wanted it for charging consider adding a power head from a
generator.  One can get a 10,000 watt power head from Harborfrieght for
$299.  Then use the car to push the EV on the road and when you get to
where you are going you can use the engine to charge the batteries.

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Hewes
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 10:50
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel

I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator that could
double as a backup for the house or shop during a power failure.  But
don't kid yourself, it takes a big generator to extend range
significantly, and the setup is less efficient than driving a gas car.
I'd consider it for things like getting the EV to a show or race instead
of trailering, and I needed on-site recharging anyway.  Otherwise I'd
drive something else.

Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 10:07 AM
> Subject: EV achilles' heel
>
>
>>I think everyone can live with the cost of replacing lead acids once
in a
>>while, and the energy loss in them from common discharge and even
assuming
>>some heads would pop out of dark odorfilled areas and we would fix the

>>electronics cost for conversions we still have the EVs current
achilles'
>>heel, the range.
>>
>> how many have tried using a small combustion engine for range
extension
>> in EVs? I imagine for instance a turbocharged 250cc motorcycle engine
or
>> even look into the possibility of using a tesla turbine because of
its
>> simplicity and potentially very compact size. (presumably run very
>> smoothly too)
>>
>> anyone tried auxiliary combustion?  I know JB Straubel did a trailer
but
>> that was a full size car motor as opposed to a small onboard one.
>> is everyone driving pure EV?
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>   Hi Dan;
>
>   Some guys have used the front clip of a front wheel drive small
> automatic car, setup like a trailer as a "pusher" setup. Tricky stuff
here
> is the controlling it from the EV cockpit. Ed Sharky out in CA did a
very
> neat VW Rabbit one as well as a clipped off VW Bug rear end. I guess
any
> reasonable small car can play, if yur handy setting it up like a
trailer,
> best as a FWD one, then you have all the emmissions crap in place, so
you
> are still a good clean citizen?
>
>   Seeya
>
>   Bob
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database:
>> 269.8.15/847 - Release Date: 6/12/2007 9:42 PM
>>
>>
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Since he is using straight vegetable oil, HE should never need to do anything to be in compliance...he is either a producer or distributor...the only two entities that are responsible for paying the motor fuel tax in NC.
----- Original Message ----- From: "David S" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 11:44 AM
Subject: RE: Fined for not paying gas tax



[QUOTE FROM ARTICLE]
"State offices do not have the forms to appropriately and fairly deal with
VegOil, nor the staff to enforce the non-existent forms," said director
Cynthia Shelton. "So either they tell people inquiring about compliance to
get lost, or they make them jump through a bunch of arbitrary hoops."
[END QOUTE]
If this is an verifiable quote from a state representative than this should 
be a case where ignorance of the law is an acceptable offense. It sounds
like he could never had been in "Compliance" if he wanted to.

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Richard Acuti
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 9:32 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Fined for not paying gas tax

Obviously, this is outrageous and completely contradictory. It was good to
read that in Illinois, the legislature fixed it pretty quickly.

It's exactly as I said in my earlier post about the DMV: Currently, the
Federal, state and local governments have no idea how to properly & fairly
regulate or inspect electric or other alternate fuel vehicles. Now I want to 

be as fully in compliance of the law as possible but when the law isn't
written to consider our particular circumstances, I'm not going to let some 
jackass at the DMV or some busybody "revenu'er" try to twist the existing
law to apply to me, and then punish me.

We as a group, are obviously not trying to dodge taxes, we are trying to
drive cleaner, cheaper and independently of foreign powers and domestic
corporate entities.
I've got "EV pride" but I scraped the "electric vehicle" decals off my rear 
window a long time ago.

Rich A.

From: "David S" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Fined for not paying gas tax.
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:07:18 -0500
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Language: en-us

Driver ticketed for using biofuel
Vegetable oil sticks him with $1,000 fine

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/599471.html

Yes the article is biofuel but could be about any fuel including
electricity.

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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

1) guy converts diesel to run on veggie oil.
2) NC tax people come after him, wanting his first born, for "tax" reasons. 
Are the Tax people going to come after us (I use "us" as a generic
term; us EVers, or more specifically, us NC EVers...) because uncle
thief wants more tax revenue? What recourse do we have (federally,
or statewise) - if any?
Michigan has a law that requires road taxes to be paid on *any* motor vehicle fuel -- so it includes all alternate fuels including electricity.
I had a separate meter installed in my garage, which I used for charging my EV. (It also ran the lights and other stuff in the garage, but this wasn't a big deal). I paid the taxes on Michigan's "Sales and Use Tax" forms. Initially, they want you to file quarterly; but that meant I was paying only a few dollars each time. They switched me to annual filing. Then after the first year of that, they actually sent me a letter saying I didn't have to the pay the tax any more because the annual amount due was too low to be worth their paperwork.
I believe most states have such a form to pay "Use taxes". This is supposed to be used for any purchases that are taxable, but the taxes weren't collected at the time of purchase for whatever reason. If you can show that you paid the use taxes, I'll bet you're untouchable for any further tax bites.
In Michigan's case, there was no "per mile..." charge -- the road tax was a percentage of the cost of the fuel. I wonder what they'd do if you charged your EV from solar or wind power? The cost of the fuel is zero! :-) 

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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Bob Rice wrote:
I towed my Rabbit all over hell and gone for YEARS! Just leave it in neutral. Now a Corvair, that's another issue. I destroyed a Corvair tranny by towing it in neutral, for about 1800 miles.
Was the Corvair an automatic? Many automatic transmissions do not like being towed! They have no oil pump on the drive shaft, and so get no oil circulation or lubrication.
The Corvair manual transmission (like most manual transmissions) doesn't have any issues with being towed in neutral; everything inside is spinning just as it would be when driving. I towed my Corvair for thousands of miles with no problems. 

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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--- Begin Message --- It certainly depends on how much range extension you need, and your average use while under way. If you are driving at lower speeds so you're not discharging so fast (and therefore the generator is running for more time), you've got a 10KW generator, and you don't mind arriving at 50% DOD, then a reasonably light generator might do it. 

I'm thinking of two uses:
Get to my parents place, stay a few hours, get back. It's 80 miles each way, moderate, mostly country road driving. If the EV has decent range to begin with, a 10KW generator on a trailer might make it do-able.
Putting a lightweight, low capacity but high current drag race pack in the car and driving to Joliet (maybe 25 miles) and recharging the pack once I get there, and again to drive home. Might do it.
I really think the more you try to extend the range, the less likely you are to burn less gas than just driving a gasser. Let's face it, the more you're counting on the gasser (generator or pusher), the more you're just looking like a gasser toting around a lot of extra weight. Same reason a hybrid with limited battery capacity doesn't gain much on the highway, it's just an overweight gasser. It ends the trip with the same charge it starts with. The only gain is regen, which is negligible on the highway. 

Marty
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: EV achilles' heel


The only problem with just having a generator on a trailer is you would
have to have a HUGE generator to power the car.  The point of having a
pusher is to use it for driving long distances.  Adding the generator
would allow you to charge the pack while pushing and at the site where
you were at.  Just doing it with a generator won't be feasible because
of the added weight of such a large generator.  You would have to have a
generator capable of 160 volts (for a 120 system) and about 200 amps
output.  That's 32KW.  Ouch.

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Hewes
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 11:39
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel

I've had my eye on that one for a while.  That and a cruiser bike motor
designed to maintain decent RPM for hours might be cool.  On the other
hand, I saw a cool Onan air cooled twin cylinder gasser motor home
generator that looked promising, and all the RPM regulation issues would
already be worked out.  It should be a simple conversion to switch that
to propane to make it run cleaner.  It may also be worth just picking up
a backyard type backup generator and putting it on a trailer.  I don't
know what those weigh though.

Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 9:53 AM
Subject: RE: EV achilles' heel


If you wanted it for charging consider adding a power head from a
generator.  One can get a 10,000 watt power head from Harborfrieght for
$299.  Then use the car to push the EV on the road and when you get to
where you are going you can use the engine to charge the batteries.

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Hewes
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 10:50
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel

I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator that could
double as a backup for the house or shop during a power failure.  But
don't kid yourself, it takes a big generator to extend range
significantly, and the setup is less efficient than driving a gas car.
I'd consider it for things like getting the EV to a show or race instead
of trailering, and I needed on-site recharging anyway.  Otherwise I'd
drive something else.

Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 10:07 AM
Subject: EV achilles' heel



I think everyone can live with the cost of replacing lead acids once

in a

while, and the energy loss in them from common discharge and even

assuming

some heads would pop out of dark odorfilled areas and we would fix the



electronics cost for conversions we still have the EVs current

achilles'

heel, the range.

how many have tried using a small combustion engine for range

extension

in EVs? I imagine for instance a turbocharged 250cc motorcycle engine

or

even look into the possibility of using a tesla turbine because of

its

simplicity and potentially very compact size. (presumably run very
smoothly too)

anyone tried auxiliary combustion?  I know JB Straubel did a trailer

but

that was a full size car motor as opposed to a small onboard one.
is everyone driving pure EV?

Dan

  Hi Dan;


  Some guys have used the front clip of a front wheel drive small
automatic car, setup like a trailer as a "pusher" setup. Tricky stuff

here

is the controlling it from the EV cockpit. Ed Sharky out in CA did a

very

neat VW Rabbit one as well as a clipped off VW Bug rear end. I guess

any

reasonable small car can play, if yur handy setting it up like a

trailer,

best as a FWD one, then you have all the emmissions crap in place, so

you

are still a good clean citizen?

  Seeya

  Bob


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--- Begin Message --- 
Marty Hewes skrev:
I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator that could double as a backup for the house or shop during a power failure. But don't kid yourself, it takes a big generator to extend range significantly,
given that the tesla roadster motor makes 170kWh shouldn't 30Kw generation be possible in a reasonably sized generator.. there are stock 250cc standard motorcycle motors that make around 30horses afaik. turbo can lift it higher 
and the setup is less efficient than driving a gas car.
how do you explain the prius then. my knowledge is tentative but I get the impression that normal gas driving doesn't use the motor's least inefficient point where as a generator could. so at to offset losses in a seriel arrangement.
the GM volt prototype is the same I believe although we might never get that if it was up to them 

Dan

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--- Begin Message --- 
From: Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



A successful charging infastructure would encourage employers to install
outlets for any of their employees that have electric vehicles.  It would
be useful to have information to show the employer just how little cost
is associated with the electricity.  The installation could be done at
the employee's expense if the employer doesn't want to pay for the outlet.
The EAA may choose to offer instalation assistance.


Following up on an earlier thread I started re:
charging stations on a university campus -- I
had a meeting with the engineer from our
Facilities Services department who's in charge
of all matters electrical. Since he came to my
office, I had some interesting stuff ready to
fire on my office computer to show him.

We looked at websites for some of the most
promising (meaning likely first to market at a
cost more people can afford) technologies, and
I capped it off by showing him Killacycle taking
a run. He was blown away that it was all done
with electricity. :)=)} No mirrors but a lotta
smoke!

The result of the meeting was that he will do
some more research to see what other universities
in Canada are doing about electric vehicles, and
that he committed to working to accomodate
anyone bringing an electric vehicle to campus.

Good news.

He's thinking it'll be a case-by-case accomodation
for right now, which is fine because it gets people
in the door and shows a willingness to make it happen.
We talked about what kinds of vehicles might be
needing a charge (electric-assist bicycles, mopeds
and motorcycles are cheap here) and about the
differences between "slow charge" and "fast charge"
and what that means for vehicle utility during the
day.

I passed on the information that folks here gave
me, and we talked about EVs on campus to
replace an aging fleet of station wagons, vans
and pickup trucks that never seem to get
above 30 km/hr.

Next thing is to get the Environmental
Committee on board, partner up with the BC
Sustainable Energy Association, and start
pushing some BC EV manufacturers and dealers
to come out to an EV Fair on campus to
demonstrate clean, affordable EV transportation.

One step at a time...

Chuck

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--- Begin Message --- 
    Jeff> OMG!
    Jeff> I never reply to the list. That last message was suppose to be 
off-list
    Jeff> My apology to Dan and to the List.

I know many will disagree with me, however, if the list was configured
properly this wouldn't happen.  If you hit the reply button or the 'r' key
your reply should go to the author, not to the list as a whole.

    http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

-- 
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/

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--- Begin Message --- 
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:32:26 -0700
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 09:21 AM 6/13/2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>I know many will disagree with me, however, if the list was configured
>properly this wouldn't happen.  If you hit the reply button or the 'r' key
>your reply should go to the author, not to the list as a whole.
>
>     http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

True, it would certainly stop all those annoying discussions!  Lots 
of questions posted and no answers posted.
How useful.

--
John G. Lussmyer      mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....         
http://www.CasaDelGato.com

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