EV Digest 6888
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: What batteries to try next?
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Aircraft Starter generator
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EV Library, What Books Would You Recommend?
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV achilles' heel
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) High voltage? was Anyone heard of these Li-Ion batteries - or
using them?
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Aircraft Starter generator
by "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: EV achilles' heel
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: High voltage? was Anyone heard of these Li-Ion batteries - or
using them?
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Aircraft Starter generator
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: DC/DC converter needed for project
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: acidity of battery terminal crud?
by "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Towing an EV
by "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: How the Prius Works
by "TrotFox Greyfoot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Towing an EV
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: gas taxes...
by "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
by "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: .57 modifier for LeadAcid, Is it the same for AGM's, Li-On, etc.
by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Towing an EV
by "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Towing an EV
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Anyone heard of these Li-Ion batteries - or using them?
by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Fined for not paying gas tax
by "Randall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe a cheap set of
> Sam's Club specials for
> $60 each (they won't last long, but the price is
> low).
>Since there is so much volitility and new things on
the horizon in the batt market I would opt for the
cheepies. although I do have a 48v 40ah set of
lithiums from Valence (not at all cheep) They have
performed well for the last two years but they are in
a pedal electric hybred and have never been below 80%
so I do not know how they perorm on bigger packs and
deeper discharges
good luck
kEVs
> Many switch to an "exotic" battery? Thundersky
> lithiums (but where to
> get good ones)? Nicads? Nimh?
>
> I'm open to suggestions! :-)
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hopfully if nothing else your first EV grin 8^)
Cya
Jim
--- Phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So this is my project now a aircraft starter
> generator on a Geo metro
> convertible
> The motor is 400 amp at 300 volts permanent
> magnet..
>
> So guys in lighting me .. What do I have to look
> forward to on my first EV
>
> --
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-------
>
> From: John Wayland
> Date: 6/12/2007 8:49:41 AM
> >
>
> I believe this. There are a lot of hills around
> here, some of them
> Pretty steep, so yes, in our beautiful urban area
> (we are the only major
> City in the USA with an extinct volcano within the
> city limits) regen is
> A nice feature. HEL--LOW everyone...I've 'never'
> said I don't like
> Regen! In fact, I think it's great.
>
> In my first version of Blue Meanie, waaaay back in
> 1980, I used a
> Primitive aircraft starter generator as the traction
> source. It was a
> Very inefficient motor, and thus ran very hot all
> the time, but it was a
> Versatile compound wound type beast with its
> selectable windings. In
> Addition to having the acceleration power of the
> mighty series-wound
> Motor within, you could also excite the shunt
> windings of its generator
> Soul and get mondo regen, the kind that would try to
> through you through
> The windshield if you got carried away! Some where
> in cyber space
> there's my detailed post of a trip I took from my
> east Portland home
> Westward across the city, up and over the steep
> Sylvan hills (6% grade
> For nearly 4 miles), out to Beaverton where the car
> was put on charge
> But because of time restraints (high output constant
> current PFC
> Chargers didn't exist back then) it didn't get fully
> charged...then
> Reverse the process back home. This was when my
> little Datsun ran at a
> Heady 48 volts, folks, just 8 6V golf car batteries!
> Anyway...I barely
> Made it up the west side grade to the summit of
> Sylvan hill as the
> Batteries were exhausted from their not-so-great
> recharge...the car
> Crawled to the top and was at a tepid human's
> walking gate as it rolled
> Over the crest...whew! I kicked on full regen which
> held the car to a
> Slow 15 mph or so down the hill, but hundreds of
> amps were jammed into
> The poor abused batteries (my formative years, so
> give me a break for
> Committing battricide). I could have coasted down
> the hill, but after
> The lowest point as you re-enter Portland, there's a
> big ass bridge you
> Have to transverse that arches high up and over the
> Willamette River
> that's part of the freeway system that outs you onto
> I-84 East. Had I
> Merely coasted, the car 'might' have had enough
> momentum to make it up
> And over the bridge, but it surely would have died
> afterwards on the
> L-o-n-g ramp that winds to the I-84 and I would have
> found myself stuck
> Alongside the crazy freeway. However, because of the
> high current, long
> Duration regen I employed, the car had a burst of
> power in its battery
> Pack and I was able to make the ~ 9 mile trek (all a
> gradual uphill
> Route) all the way back to my driveway! Yes, it was
> a 100% discharge,Thanks
> for acknowledging this. Yes, I know I'm right about
> it. I have
> Logged too many miles behind the wheel of EV1s to
> not know this, and
> Yes, I've even driven Solectria's vehicles (their
> twin rear motor
> Pickups and unfortunately, their s-l-o-w Geo
> Metros).
>
>
> >
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
I am putting together a long overdue update for the So You Want To
Build and EV page, and it occurred to me that rather than fumble
about trying to find what books I should recommend, I should just
ask the EVDL. Currently the list is:
Convert It by Mike Brown
Build Your Own Electric Vehicle by Bob Brant
The New Electric Vehicles by Michael Hackleman
The Complete Book of Electric Vehicles by Sheldon Shacket
How to Convert to an Electric Car by Ted Lucas.
I know that there are a lot that should be added, some how to, some
why to, and some just history.
What would you recommend be suggest to new folks interested in
getting into EVs?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey
Webmaster
EV Photo Album
http://evalbum.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I understand the notion of furthering the range with a combustion
engine. I suggested it earlier today. what I meant by insane was I would
never drive a pusher. a generator trailer sure, but a pusher? that's
just wrong :) especially a fly by wire one where it might jam full on.
that someone would even entertain the idea is amazing
but I guess it isn't much different than trusting an automatic gear
Bob Rice wrote:
pusher trailer seems insane to me
Hi Dan;
Yeah! Ya have a good point. But they are handy for that occasional
2000 mile trip to see Aunt Tilly in Toledo and you are in Wenachee,
Washington. You wouldn't use the damn thing for day to day trips that
you use an EV for.It could be a Club thing, shared for the need to use
basis?Maybe cheaper than renting a car, Amtrak, or Jet Blue, IF ya
stop off and see other Listers along the way?
A EV can be your ONLY car?
Sea Ya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 2007-06-13 at 17:53 -0700, Michael Barkley wrote:
> My brother showed me this Li-Ion battery website
> today:
>
> http://www.tekbattery.com/products.html
>
My question is, why on earth would each 12V battery have a "high
voltage" warning label? I can understand why you'd want to label a 48V+
*pack* of batteries with such a warning, but each battery?
The danger that a single one of these batteries would pose has to do
with discharge *current* if you short one. But then the same is true of
a car or golf cart battery.
Am I being too critical, or is the person assembling or selling these
batteries just being dumb/paranoid/etc?
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I see I had a typo.. 400 Amos 30 volts
-------Original Message-------
From: Jim Husted
Date: 6/13/2007 9:19:05 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Aircraft Starter generator
Hopfully if nothing else your first EV grin 8^)
Cya
Jim
--- Phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So this is my project now a aircraft starter
> generator on a Geo metro
> convertible
> The motor is 400 amp at 300 volts permanent
> magnet..
>
> So guys in lighting me .. What do I have to look
> forward to on my first EV
>
> --
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-------
>
> From: John Wayland
> Date: 6/12/2007 8:49:41 AM
> >
>
> I believe this. There are a lot of hills around
> here, some of them
> Pretty steep, so yes, in our beautiful urban area
> (we are the only major
> City in the USA with an extinct volcano within the
> city limits) regen is
> A nice feature. HEL--LOW everyone...I've 'never'
> said I don't like
> Regen! In fact, I think it's great.
>
> In my first version of Blue Meanie, waaaay back in
> 1980, I used a
> Primitive aircraft starter generator as the traction
> source. It was a
> Very inefficient motor, and thus ran very hot all
> the time, but it was a
> Versatile compound wound type beast with its
> selectable windings. In
> Addition to having the acceleration power of the
> mighty series-wound
> Motor within, you could also excite the shunt
> windings of its generator
> Soul and get mondo regen, the kind that would try to
> through you through
> The windshield if you got carried away! Some where
> in cyber space
> there's my detailed post of a trip I took from my
> east Portland home
> Westward across the city, up and over the steep
> Sylvan hills (6% grade
> For nearly 4 miles), out to Beaverton where the car
> was put on charge
> But because of time restraints (high output constant
> current PFC
> Chargers didn't exist back then) it didn't get fully
> charged...then
> Reverse the process back home. This was when my
> little Datsun ran at a
> Heady 48 volts, folks, just 8 6V golf car batteries!
> Anyway...I barely
> Made it up the west side grade to the summit of
> Sylvan hill as the
> Batteries were exhausted from their not-so-great
> recharge...the car
> Crawled to the top and was at a tepid human's
> walking gate as it rolled
> Over the crest...whew! I kicked on full regen which
> held the car to a
> Slow 15 mph or so down the hill, but hundreds of
> amps were jammed into
> The poor abused batteries (my formative years, so
> give me a break for
> Committing battricide). I could have coasted down
> the hill, but after
> The lowest point as you re-enter Portland, there's a
> big ass bridge you
> Have to transverse that arches high up and over the
> Willamette River
> that's part of the freeway system that outs you onto
> I-84 East. Had I
> Merely coasted, the car 'might' have had enough
> momentum to make it up
> And over the bridge, but it surely would have died
> afterwards on the
> L-o-n-g ramp that winds to the I-84 and I would have
> found myself stuck
> Alongside the crazy freeway. However, because of the
> high current, long
> Duration regen I employed, the car had a burst of
> power in its battery
> Pack and I was able to make the ~ 9 mile trek (all a
> gradual uphill
> Route) all the way back to my driveway! Yes, it was
> a 100% discharge,Thanks
> for acknowledging this. Yes, I know I'm right about
> it. I have
> Logged too many miles behind the wheel of EV1s to
> not know this, and
> Yes, I've even driven Solectria's vehicles (their
> twin rear motor
> Pickups and unfortunately, their s-l-o-w Geo
> Metros).
>
>
> >
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________________
______
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is almost off-topic, but since we are talking about BEV/HEV stuff,
I'll post anyways....
>cleanly, maybe cleaner than a coal fired electric plant, although not Bio
>neutral, but either is coal. I'm not talking the average Briggs and
Stratton
>with a stone age $5 carb runningthe middle easts finest.
Not necessarily. You really need to look at the emissions results from
real (not roadside) FTP or HDDT or LSI cycle testing to understand.
The cleanest cars tend to be very late-model Honda gasoline
vehicles. Briggs or motorcycle engines or whatever being fed LPG
through a carburettor/mixer or whatever is not going to be cleaner
than *any* modern ICE fed with a modern fuel management system.
Even the particulate matter produced by the higher oil consumption
of these air-cooled or high-revving cammed-up engines will wreck
the emissions numbers.
Unless you have the following, you CANNOT beat a modern gasoline ICE
for emissions throughout its life cycle, operating cycle, and other
things that they are called to do:
1. Well designed engine to make reasonable hydrocarbon, CO, and NOx
emission balance, along with good efficiency and low oil consumption.
2. Accurate and fast fuel control (this can actually be an LPG carb
but more than likely needs to be fuel injection of some kind).
3. Accurate front oxygen sensor algorithm. Wideband O2 sensors are
used often for this purpose to improve the response time. Occasionally
both a wideband and a stoich sensor are used together as a wideband
sensor is not quite as accurate whereas the stoich sensor does not
give you a clear error magnitude indication.
4. Efficient catalytic converter formulated correctly for the
expected emissions balance *from that engine*.
5. Rear oxygen sensor (post-catalyst). This has what is called a
'minor effect on fuelling' in the service manuals, but this sensor
is critical in obtaining the ultra-low emissions values obtained
with these vehicles.
6. At least half a year of calibration work (yes, calibration work
alone - not including software development) by a pretty reasonably
sized development team.
7. Probably a processor like the MPC565 to churn through all of
the code and catalyst oxygen storage models and intake manifold
filling and temperature models, and sensor diagnostics, and sensor
ageing compensators, and... etc... The processing required for this
is several times more complex than even the most complex AC
vector-based EV controller.
8. Several man-years of software development.
You can apply all of these methods to an alternate fuel too.
CNG and LPG offer better cold-start emissions numbers. CNG offers
lower non-methane hydrocarbon numbers. NOx can be slightly lower
because the NOx/HC tradeoff allows slightly richer operation,
mostly because methane does not count as reactive emissions.
You would be better off emissions and efficiency-wise to use
an engine from a modern Honda or for that matter any other vehicle,
with the emissions equipment intact and operating correctly.
By the way, this is my day job - ICE engine management systems,
primarily using natural gas (CNG) as a fuel. I can calibrate a
CNG or LPG system to water your eyes from so much NOx, or
aspyxiate you in a few minutes from too much CO, or make you
seek a less smelly area from ammonia and hydrogen sulphide.
It isn't automatically cleaner.
You can download car and engine emission test results from
the EPA web site, although you might need some help interpreting
the results if you are not familiar with automobile test
procedures. You also need to know that there are different
test cycles for different engine types. Cars and small trucks
run the FTP and US06, heavy-duty trucks run the HDDT, and
small off-road engines like the Briggs will run either the LSI
or SORE tests.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wondered about that too
maybe it has to do with the problem that comes with shorting this
particular product. it might burn/explode so they put a known label on
to make people more aware perhaps
Christopher Robison wrote:
On Wed, 2007-06-13 at 17:53 -0700, Michael Barkley wrote:
My brother showed me this Li-Ion battery website
today:
http://www.tekbattery.com/products.html
My question is, why on earth would each 12V battery have a "high
voltage" warning label? I can understand why you'd want to label a 48V+
*pack* of batteries with such a warning, but each battery?
The danger that a single one of these batteries would pose has to do
with discharge *current* if you short one. But then the same is true of
a car or golf cart battery.
Am I being too critical, or is the person assembling or selling these
batteries just being dumb/paranoid/etc?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I see I had a typo.. 400 Amos 30 volts
^
Hey Phelps, looks like two in a row, Getting excited
are you, hehehe. No time for email checks, got to go
work on the convertion, LMAO. Sorry couldn't resist
8^)
How big is this motor? If you want, take some pics
and send them over to me, and I'll have a look.
Matter of fact have someone else take the pics cause
you'll be all excited and jittery and they'll come out
blurry 8^P Pics of the brushes and commutator will be
helpful.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the
Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I sold my old DCP and went with a Belktronix. $395
for 60A.
--- Roger Daisley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The only item missing from my inventory of parts
> needed for my VW conversion
> is a DC/DC converter. I'm running a 96v pack and
> only need a nominal DC/DC
> converter for vehicle lights, etc. (Will be using
> with normal vehicle
> battery.)
>
> Prices and ideas seem to range from the cheap to
> exotic. Frankly, I'm
> confused and don't want to spend $1,000+ on a
> "gold-plated" converter or
> $19.99 on a cheap battery charger from Harbor
> Freight that probably won't
> work, anyway. I'd appreciate any off-list
> suggestions for a good economical,
> reliable and safe converter. Maybe you even have one
> laying around that is
> gathering dust and still has the smoke inside ...
> I'm open for offers to
> purchase.
>
> Roger Daisley
> Pullman, WA
> http://ElectricVW.blogspot.com
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Best way to get rid of it is with a solution of baking soda and water -
dissolves and neutralizes any acid present.
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 2:15 PM
Subject: acidity of battery terminal crud?
Quick question... what is the composition of the crud/corrosion that forms
on the terminals of flooded lead acid batteries?
In an ideal world, the terminals stay clean, but in the real world,
sometimes the stuff grows... white/yellow/green/blue semi-solid powdery or
gooey stuff.
Is there acid in the crud? Or does whatever chemical process that produces
it use up the acid?
The practical reason for this is to know how carefully to remove, handle
and dispose of the crud - will it eat holes in my jeans like the
electrolyte?
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1997 Solectria Force
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
WHOA! Depends on the vehicle - check your manual first!!!!! Some vehicles
nowadaze (manual tranny) won't tow without disconnecting the driveline. My
sister's Kia for one - we trashed the diffy on it, and we had the front end
of the 4wheel drive on a tow dolly, so we figured we were safe! $1200
later...
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV_Discussion_Group" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 3:13 AM
Subject: Towing an EV
I plan on towing my EV's using tow bars. If the EV's manual transmission is
in "neutral" the motor is disconnected from the driveshaft, correct? Will I
be damaging the motor towing the EV in this manner?
Thanks
Don B. Davidson III
Rome NY
[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Um dude. It's not a clutch. A clutch is a friction based mechanical
disconnect. The Prius has an electronic torque converter if you want
to call it anything other than a CVT.
BTW, it's a CVT. I'd actually like to know why you think it's a bad
design but seeing as it's in an ICE car, please tell me offline.
I seriously doubt you're going to be asked for any autographs. Just
my hunch though...
Trot, the fairly-technical, fox...
On 6/13/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Danny Miller wrote:
> No, the CVT is a proper transmission and can carry the full HP of the
> engine to the wheels.
> There is only one electric motor/generator. Actually there's a second
> motor for engine starting and providing countertorque for the CVT
think about it
it is the variable component deciding the grip from the motor to the
wheels..
no autographs please :)
--
| /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember,
| ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a
| >\_/< [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Was it a 4wd or an all wheel drive? All wheel drives have to be towed
with all wheels on the ground, or all off the ground. Most 4wd's are
no different than a rear wheel drive though.
On 6/13/07, joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
WHOA! Depends on the vehicle - check your manual first!!!!! Some vehicles
nowadaze (manual tranny) won't tow without disconnecting the driveline. My
sister's Kia for one - we trashed the diffy on it, and we had the front end
of the 4wheel drive on a tow dolly, so we figured we were safe! $1200
later...
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV_Discussion_Group" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 3:13 AM
Subject: Towing an EV
I plan on towing my EV's using tow bars. If the EV's manual transmission is
in "neutral" the motor is disconnected from the driveshaft, correct? Will I
be damaging the motor towing the EV in this manner?
Thanks
Don B. Davidson III
Rome NY
[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't kid yourself - we still need the 7th Fleet, no matter where they are!
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: gas taxes...
If this is the logic then shouldn't ev'ers get a discount refund for the
support of the 7th fleet which is primarily used to protect gulf oil
interests? Since ev'ers don't need the 7th fleet or their oil they are
protecting.
On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 6:55 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
1) guy converts diesel to run on veggie oil.
2) NC tax people come after him, wanting his first born, for "tax"
reasons.
The gist of my concern (in the article) is:
Folks that use the road, have to pay road-use taxes, which are bundled
into the price of gasoline and diesel.
Of course, Electric Vehicles don't pay this tax....because we don't use
gasoline.
Moreover, vehicles that get better fuel economy pay less tax (I found
an
article about that - be prepared in the future for the DMV to begin
retrieving our odometer readings for miles-driven taxation purposes;
who
knows, probably already happens in some states, and certainly does for
"business" or personally owned "business use" vehicles).
Here's the math (its simple, even I can do it).
Average miles traveled: 12000
Average MPG (for my camry): 22
Thats ~ 545 gallons.
NC charges 29.9 cents a gallon (according to the article).
(I'm sure its more like 29.999 cents)
.299 * 545 = ~ 162...
Thats $162 a year in taxes (NC State)
This website
http://www.gaspricewatch.com/usgastaxes.asp
indicates Federal tax is 18.4 cents per gallon.
18.4 * 545 = ~100.28
(What are the federal and state taxes on our electric bill? I donno,
haven't looked; I would guess that this *could* be subtracted, to keep
the
SOBs in government totally honest).
(note: I don't like big government; I could go on, but I doubt you'd
appreciate it).
Anyway.
The article states that this guy is getting charged $1000 fine, for NC
state taxes (what about county? city?).
Either way, I'm concerned.
(Finally) - Here's my question:
Are the Tax people going to come after us (I use "us" as a generic
term;
us EVers, or more specifically, us NC EVers...) because uncle thief
wants
more tax revenue?
What recourse do we have (federally, or statewise) - if any?
Has anyone heard of this happening before?
Do we get rewarded (pay less tax) because we're trying to "save the
environment" - "protect the US from terrorists by not giving them
money"
(etc, pick a reason for why you drive electric).
Additional comments, and Charlotte Observer article below...
I'd like to own a gas station, and say "Gasoline, $2.00 a gallon, PLUS
TAX
(to let people know how much the government gets).
If folks knew how much tax they paid, think they'd get a little upset?
(I'm sure thats why the politicos hide as much tax as they can).
Note: I'm not trying to "get one over on the government that provides
the
roads" - I should "help pay" for the road. Not a problem.
Please don't carp about me trying to avoid "paying my fair share" -
What I don't want is for the evil succubus tax person to come after me
3
years hence, and decide I should pay $5k in taxes, and another $10k in
fines.
http://www.charlotte.com/112/story/153260.html
THOSE WHO MAKE THEIR OWN ENVIRONMENT-FRIENDLY GAS CAN AVOID PAIN AT THE
PUMP BUT NOT THE TAXES.
A price to pay for alternative fuels
BRUCE HENDERSON
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bob Teixeira re-applies a sticker touting an alternative fuel he uses
in
his car. He plans to fight to change fuel-tax laws that have hit his
wallet.Bob Teixeira decided it was time to take a stand against U.S.
dependence on foreign oil.
So last fall the Charlotte musician and guitar instructor spent $1,200
to
convert his 1981 diesel Mercedes to run on vegetable oil. He bought
soybean oil in 5-gallon jugs at Costco, spending about 30 percent more
than diesel would cost.
His reward, from a state that heavily promotes alternative fuels: a
$1,000
fine last month for not paying motor fuel taxes.
He's been told to expect another $1,000 fine from the federal
government.
And to legally use veggie oil, state officials told him, he would have
to
first post a $2,500 bond.
Teixeira is one of a growing number of fuel-it-yourselfers -- backyard
brewers who recycle restaurant grease or make moonshine for their car
tanks. They do it to save money, reduce pollution or thumb their noses
at
oil sheiks.
They're also caught in a web of little-known state laws that can stifle
energy independence.
State Sen. Stan Bingham, R-Davidson, is known around Raleigh for his
diesel Volkswagen fueled by used soybean oil. The car sports a
"Goodbye,
OPEC" sign.
"If somebody was going to go to this much trouble to drive around in a
car
that uses soybean oil, they ought to be exempt" from state taxes, he
said.
The N.C. Department of Revenue, which fined Teixeira, has asked
legislators to waive the $2,500 bond for small fuel users. The
department
also told Teixeira, after the Observer asked about his case this week,
that it will compromise on his fine.
But officials say they'll keep pursuing taxes on all fuels used in
highway
vehicles. With its 29.9-cent a gallon gas tax, the state collects $1.2
billion each year to pay for road construction.
"With the high cost of fuel right now, the department does recognize
that
a lot of people are looking for relief," said Reggie Little, assistant
director of the motor fuel taxes division. "We're not here to hurt the
small guy, we're just trying to make sure that the playing field is
level."
Use promoted, little regulation
State policies firmly endorse alternative fuels.In 2005 legislators
directed state agencies to replace 20 percent of their annual petroleum
use with alternatives by 2010. About 6,000 of the state's 8,500
vehicles
are equipped to use ethanol. The state fleet also includes about 135
gas-electric hybrids.
Few states, however, are prepared to regulate the new fuels, says the
National VegOil Board, which promotes vegetable oil fuel.
"State offices do not have the forms to appropriately and fairly deal
with
VegOil, nor the staff to enforce the non-existent forms," said director
Cynthia Shelton. "So either they tell people inquiring about compliance
to
get lost, or they make them jump through a bunch of arbitrary hoops."
Outraged Illinois legislators this spring quickly waived that state's
$2,500 bond requirement when an elderly man was nabbed for using waste
vegetable oil.
In the mountain district of state Sen. John Snow, D-Cherokee,
home-brewed
ethanol was once known as moonshine. But a couple of constituents who
made
it for fuel have been fined for the same tax violation that got
Teixeira
in trouble.
Snow has introduced several bills to promote biodiesel, which under
state
law includes vegetable oil.
"One of the biggest problems in the state is a real lack of information
for people who want to use alternative fuels," said Snow's research
assistant, Jonathan Ducote. "It's just now appearing on (regulators')
radar."
Done in by bumper sticker
Teixeira's story began near Lowe's Motor Speedway on May 14. As
recreational vehicles streamed in for race week, revenue investigators
were checking fuel tanks of diesel RVs for illegal fuel.
The investigators quickly spotted Teixeira's passing bumper sticker:
"Powered by 100% vegetable oil."
"It was like some twist of fate that put me there," he said. "It was
like
I was asking for them to stop me."
Teixeira says revenue officials are just doing their jobs. But he
thinks
it's unfair that he was lumped with people who purposely try to avoid
fuel
taxes.
"Individuals who are trying to do the right thing environmentally
cannot
and should not continue to take this kind of financial hit," he wrote
Gov.
Mike Easley.
Teixeira says he'll pay the state fine and apply for a state fuel
license.
But pumping regular diesel again "broke my heart."
"I'm ready to get myself legal," he said, "and start using vegetable
oil
again."
Alternative Fuel Vehicles*
North CarolinaDiesel 118,479
Flex fuel 121,547
(ethanol capable)
Hybrid 11,758
Total 251,784
South Carolina
Diesel 54,786
Flex fuel 68,303
Hybrid 3,264
Total 126,353
*Registered as of July 2006
SOURCE: Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers
More on Fuel Taxes
Piedmont Biofuels, a biodiesel cooperative in Pittsboro, posts links to
state tax laws on its Web site: http://biofuels.coop/general
-information/taxes//. The N.C. Department of Revenue's motor fuels tax
division has a toll-free number: 877-308-9092.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree with the latter! If I reply to a message on the list, it should go
to the list.
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Wendell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 10:30 AM
Subject: RE: Sorry to Dan and the list
Jeff> I never reply to the list.
I know many will disagree with me, however, if the list
was configured properly this wouldn't happen. If you hit
the reply button or the 'r' key your reply should go to
the author, not to the list as a whole.
ummm... count me among the many who disagree. if a message comes from a
list, the reply should go the list. this is a group discussion, replies
should go to the group.
private replies, not public replies, should require the extra step.
m.
Michael Wendell
Speedgoat Bicycles
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Win a $5000 custom mountain bike, and help fight breat cancer!
http://www.speedgoat.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
AFAIK Lead Acids are the only type of battery rated at C20 (= 20 hour
rate), Nickel and Lithium batteries are always rated at 1C, so this
0.57 is just to bring PbA in line with other chemistries.
The 0.57 for floodies is probably the worst derating around, since
they're not so great at high currents. AGMs would be around 0.65 -
correct me if I'm wrong, list?
On 14/06/2007, at 8:40 AM, Michael Barkley wrote:
Searched the archives and found this formula:
(Pack 20hr rate)x(Pack Voltage)x.57=Watthours
The above formula being related to Flooded Lead Acids.
Is this .57 modifier the same for all battery
technologies that can be used in EV packs? FLA, AGM,
NiMh, NiCd, Li-Ion, etc.?
IE: 210hr(20) x 120vdc x .57 = 14364 Whr, FLA
batteries
If not what is the modifier for determining the
battery pack's capacity for:
Spiral AGM's
Non Spiral AGM's
LA Gels
LiIon
NiMh
NiCd
etc....
Thanks in advance, :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It was a 4WD, but according to the mechanic that fixed it, that didn't
matter. What did matter is that it had an electronic control of some kind
that required that you drop the driveline in addition to having it out of
gear.
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: Towing an EV
Was it a 4wd or an all wheel drive? All wheel drives have to be towed
with all wheels on the ground, or all off the ground. Most 4wd's are
no different than a rear wheel drive though.
On 6/13/07, joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
WHOA! Depends on the vehicle - check your manual first!!!!! Some vehicles
nowadaze (manual tranny) won't tow without disconnecting the driveline.
My
sister's Kia for one - we trashed the diffy on it, and we had the front
end
of the 4wheel drive on a tow dolly, so we figured we were safe! $1200
later...
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV_Discussion_Group" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 3:13 AM
Subject: Towing an EV
I plan on towing my EV's using tow bars. If the EV's manual transmission
is
in "neutral" the motor is disconnected from the driveshaft, correct? Will
I
be damaging the motor towing the EV in this manner?
Thanks
Don B. Davidson III
Rome NY
[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One of these newfangled 4wd's that has electronic controls instead of
a great big lever to control the transfer case.... :(
Sorry, we're getting off topic. Stop.
On 6/13/07, joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It was a 4WD, but according to the mechanic that fixed it, that didn't
matter. What did matter is that it had an electronic control of some kind
that required that you drop the driveline in addition to having it out of
gear.
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: Towing an EV
> Was it a 4wd or an all wheel drive? All wheel drives have to be towed
> with all wheels on the ground, or all off the ground. Most 4wd's are
> no different than a rear wheel drive though.
>
> On 6/13/07, joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> WHOA! Depends on the vehicle - check your manual first!!!!! Some vehicles
>> nowadaze (manual tranny) won't tow without disconnecting the driveline.
>> My
>> sister's Kia for one - we trashed the diffy on it, and we had the front
>> end
>> of the 4wheel drive on a tow dolly, so we figured we were safe! $1200
>> later...
>>
>> Joseph H. Strubhar
>>
>> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>>
>> E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Don Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "EV_Discussion_Group" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 3:13 AM
>> Subject: Towing an EV
>>
>>
>> I plan on towing my EV's using tow bars. If the EV's manual transmission
>> is
>> in "neutral" the motor is disconnected from the driveshaft, correct? Will
>> I
>> be damaging the motor towing the EV in this manner?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Don B. Davidson III
>> Rome NY
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have come across these before, can't remember when. They're
basically just A123 M1 cells built into a pack I think?
(Note the "4s5p" type descriptions, and the current ratings being 70A
per cell as per M1 specs.)
But yes, very expensive, even considering the A123 cells inside them.
On 14/06/2007, at 9:04 AM, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
never heard of them but dang they are hideously expensive
more than 300k$ for a pack the size in the tesla roadster (based on
their 'biggest' automotive)
lithiums are normally overpriced by a factor 10 but this one
managed a factor 100
Dan
Michael Barkley wrote:
My brother showed me this Li-Ion battery website
today:
http://www.tekbattery.com/products.html
Scroll down to the two automotive versions.
Quote from the website:
"These lithium ion polymer batteries are different
than the dangerous lithium (post & chemical)
batteries. They are a "foam-like" nano technology
material that holds much more power density but cannot
catch fire and are far safer than other batteries."
M. Barkley
www.texomaev.com
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1135
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The problem being in NC that this guy who did not MAKE his own fuel has
nothing to be in compliance with...the fuel maker or distributor is the
party that is responsible for paying the tax on the fuel. That is why they
are able to fine someone for using off-road diesel. This guy paid his sales
tax on the veggie oil...and NC law does not allow a fuel to have a sales tax
applied to it...so they need to decide...is soybean oil a food or a
fuel...either way, he is in compliance. :-)
----- Original Message -----
From: "David S" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 11:44 AM
Subject: RE: Fined for not paying gas tax
[QUOTE FROM ARTICLE]
"State offices do not have the forms to appropriately and fairly deal with
VegOil, nor the staff to enforce the non-existent forms," said director
Cynthia Shelton. "So either they tell people inquiring about compliance to
get lost, or they make them jump through a bunch of arbitrary hoops."
[END QOUTE]
If this is an verifiable quote from a state representative than this
should
be a case where ignorance of the law is an acceptable offense. It sounds
like he could never had been in "Compliance" if he wanted to.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Richard Acuti
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 9:32 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Fined for not paying gas tax
Obviously, this is outrageous and completely contradictory. It was good to
read that in Illinois, the legislature fixed it pretty quickly.
It's exactly as I said in my earlier post about the DMV: Currently, the
Federal, state and local governments have no idea how to properly & fairly
regulate or inspect electric or other alternate fuel vehicles. Now I want
to
be as fully in compliance of the law as possible but when the law isn't
written to consider our particular circumstances, I'm not going to let
some
jackass at the DMV or some busybody "revenu'er" try to twist the existing
law to apply to me, and then punish me.
We as a group, are obviously not trying to dodge taxes, we are trying to
drive cleaner, cheaper and independently of foreign powers and domestic
corporate entities.
I've got "EV pride" but I scraped the "electric vehicle" decals off my
rear
window a long time ago.
Rich A.
From: "David S" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Fined for not paying gas tax.
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:07:18 -0500
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Language: en-us
Driver ticketed for using biofuel
Vegetable oil sticks him with $1,000 fine
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/599471.html
Yes the article is biofuel but could be about any fuel including
electricity.
_________________________________________________________________
Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN
http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm
--- End Message ---
