EV Digest 6944
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: VOLTS vs AMPS
by "Joseph Tahbaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) "Carbon Fiber" Batteries
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Ultimate magnetic motor design, CVT, controllers
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Custom Gears
by "Rob Hogenmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Ultimate magnetic motor design, CVT, controllers
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) firefly batteries?
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: VOLTS vs AMPS
by "Rob Hogenmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
by "Pat Galliher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
by "Pat Galliher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: firefly batteries?
by "Joseph Tahbaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: VOLTS vs AMPS
by "Joseph Tahbaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Custom Gears
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: VOLTS vs AMPS
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Motor for mower
by Tad Coles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: How is AGM battery perfomance impacted by orientation?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Cheap "balancer" for A123 pack
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) RE: Ultimate magnetic motor design
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: VOLTS vs AMPS & RE: Make It
by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Make it
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Cheap "balancer" for A123 pack
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: whats the difference between gearing a motor for speed vs distance
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Well, sort of, not really. This is my understanding...
Amps x Volts = Watts
What are watts? Watt is power, NOT energy!
What are amps? Well, amps are how quickly the electricity moves. More
amps, which means the electricity is moving faster, which means more
watts (power)
Now to describe voltage you'll need to understand something else
first. A Negative charge and a positive charge attract, right? Well
the attraction between a negative and positive is voltage. That
electrical attracting force is voltage. More voltage, more force, more
watts. (power)
And when you multiply the two together you get watts!
More amps means more power, and more voltage means more power too.
Now, more amps basically creates torque, which is good for
acceleration. Using more voltage basically means more rpm (rotation
per minute) which is better for achieving a high speed. So
basically... amps= torque....voltage=rpm....amps x volts=watts
"AMPS seem to be how long the vehicle can go"
Amps-hours is how far the vehicle can go, NOT amps. An amp-hour is one
amp running for one hour. That's all I know about amp-hours really.
(Well, there's Peukert's Exponent but that's something else.)
To everyone out there:
Please correct any mistakes I made. We can't have electrical blasphemy
on this mailing list!
On 6/24/07, Rob Hogenmiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
So far I've come to the conclusion that VOLTS is the major power
contributor, the higher the VOLTS the more power the motor can make the
vehicle go.
AMPS seem to be how long the vehicle can go, the more AMPS the batteries
have the longer the vehicle can drive before being charged.
There also seems to be some correlation with the AMPS in regards to power.
Does anyone have any quick comments or suggestive reading.
God bless
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was pretty excited when I first saw these, hoping they were like the firefly
batteries. Alas, "carbon fiber" refers to the decorative case. The specs seem
pretty good.
Disclaimer: I have no financial interest in their success or failure.
http://www.brailleauto.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=16&idproduct=6
____________________________________________________________________________________
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the
Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have just salvaged a motor like you described. Its an Intramat mac 115B
servo motor, Its fairly heavy at about 75lbs or so. From what I can tell it has
230V stator coils, PM armature, built in cooling motor, tach and encoder.
Continuous current at 66 amps with peaks at 205 amps, unless the fan is not
working. The bad news is its a 2000 RPM motor. So it seems powerful enough to
drive a small EV but what can I drive it with? Must I use the encoder with a
custom inverter or can I use a variable freq like the MES-DEA 400? Maybe its
just better suited for a generator of some sort. It just looked too pretty to
be
in the landfill. Oh and unfortunately someone got to the inverter it came
with before I got there.
Rick Miller
In a message dated 6/24/2007 1:23:12 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL
PROTECTED]
writes:
Hi Dave, Lon and All,
BLDC motors are quite good and fairly easy to
build as they can be basicly just a rotating PM containing
disc with stationary coils, just not hard to do or cost
much. I can't see a 20 kw at more than $300 in materials,
maybe less.
It's biggest drawback is it doesn't have the
starting torque of a series motor but since fairly cheap to
make, one can just build it larger. Though one could replace
the PM's with series field coils but that would take
brushes, losing a main advantage.
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there a well known company that makes custom gears/sprockets to go on
splined shafts?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wondering if anyone has any thoughts on these? I sort of have an in
with the company to test some in my EV (probably about 5 or 10%
probability, but that's better than no contacts)... but as of yet all
I've seen is hype, not specs. BMS required? Discharge rate? cycles?
Thermal management? Not even sure if they really exist yet.... I
supposed I could ask my contact there, but I figured someone on this
list might have already researched them more than I have.
Z
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That was a great explanation, may I use that on www.7change.com ?
God bless
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Tahbaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: VOLTS vs AMPS
Well, sort of, not really. This is my understanding...
Amps x Volts = Watts
What are watts? Watt is power, NOT energy!
What are amps? Well, amps are how quickly the electricity moves. More
amps, which means the electricity is moving faster, which means more
watts (power)
Now to describe voltage you'll need to understand something else
first. A Negative charge and a positive charge attract, right? Well
the attraction between a negative and positive is voltage. That
electrical attracting force is voltage. More voltage, more force, more
watts. (power)
And when you multiply the two together you get watts!
More amps means more power, and more voltage means more power too.
Now, more amps basically creates torque, which is good for
acceleration. Using more voltage basically means more rpm (rotation
per minute) which is better for achieving a high speed. So
basically... amps= torque....voltage=rpm....amps x volts=watts
"AMPS seem to be how long the vehicle can go"
Amps-hours is how far the vehicle can go, NOT amps. An amp-hour is one
amp running for one hour. That's all I know about amp-hours really.
(Well, there's Peukert's Exponent but that's something else.)
To everyone out there:
Please correct any mistakes I made. We can't have electrical blasphemy
on this mailing list!
On 6/24/07, Rob Hogenmiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
So far I've come to the conclusion that VOLTS is the major power
contributor, the higher the VOLTS the more power the motor can make the
vehicle go.
AMPS seem to be how long the vehicle can go, the more AMPS the batteries
have the longer the vehicle can drive before being charged.
There also seems to be some correlation with the AMPS in regards to
power.
Does anyone have any quick comments or suggestive reading.
God bless
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think that most of your concerns apply to the low end personal UPSs. I do
get those, which are usually rated at 300-500 watts. I'm referring to the
ones that are made by APC and others and are intended for servers and high
end (expensive) installations. Here is a link to a common type I see:
http://apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SURT3000RMXLT-1T
F5&tab=models . Maybe you can get some idea of the quality of the components
from the info on the site. In the course of a year I probably see most of
the UPSs that they (APC) makes. I put a meter on one of the battery packs
from a similar unit and got a reading over 115 volts DC, so I'm assuming
that the charger and inverter is operating on a voltage close to that.
Some of these have the ability to provide AC without being connected to AC
power. They have a switch that basically turns them "on".
Again, being completely new the EVs, their value is unknown to me. They may
have none. That would be too bad!
Pat
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 9:13 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
Pat Galliher wrote:
> I'm scrapping UPSs that have all the electronics in them to
> accomplish this. I get them from 1KW to 4KW regularly, sometimes
> larger. I've had a UPS that was 20KW come in It had about thirty 24
> ah 12 batteries in it and some very impressive electronics. I'm not
> familiar with EVs enough to know if any of these parts have EV value,
> but it would seem that some parts from one DC system could be useful
> in another. The main breaker from the batteries to the UPS was rated
> at 100 amps 600VDC.
>
> It would be great to be able to reuse some of this stuff.
There is certainly a lot of potential here. I've played with a few UPS's
myself to see if they would be useful for other purposes. Here are some
of the problems that need to be dealt with:
- Poor battery chargers.
- Most just hold the battery at a float voltage around 13.8v.
- Takes over 24 hours to fully recharge.
- Not temperature compensated.
- Constant 13.8v kills the battery in 2-3 years from overcharging.
- No isolation.
- Some units tie one side of the battery to the AC powerline!
Powering it from batteries in your EV connects its pack to the
AC line.
- Built for low duty cycles.
- Batteries sized to work for less than 30 minutes at full load,
so the inverter and other parts have minimal cooling.
- Inverter parts are often highly stressed because they don't
expect it to be used for more than a total of a few hours a year.
- Requires AC power to operate.
- None of the ones I've tried can generate AC from battery power
unless AC power was present when they were turned on.
- Poor AC waveform.
All the ones I've seen are "modified sinewave" inverters, which
really means square wave inverters. They would be very poor for
running motors or loads sensitive to the waveform.
I'm sure that better quality inverters would help (the ones I've looked
at were small cheap ones).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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8:33 AM
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I get fans from about 2" up to about 6" from a lot of different equipment.
Most are 12V some are 24V. I don't think there are any DC/DC converters. I
can't see where they would be used.
Almost everything that comes in has a sheet metal case. Some of the larger
pieces are only 15" x 18" approximately. Is that large enough to put to use?
Some of the cases are aluminum as is some of the extrusions. The biggest
problem is most of the stuff isn't over 18" long.
I would think the chargers might have some potential. All of the batteries
are six or twelve volts so the chargers are going to fit someone's
application. I'm going to check a bit further, but some may be charging up
to 240 volts. But as someone noted, it's probably not at a very high
amperage. Here is a link to the type of UPSs I get
http://apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SURT3000RMXLT-1T
F5&tab=models . During the course of the year, I probably see most of the
UPSs that this company makes.
I can look around tomorrow and see if I have anything that might work for
you (or get you started). Send me an email of the forum and I'll send you my
contact info.
Pat
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jim, Saturn Guy
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 11:18 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
All of the fans could be used and any of the larger 12
volt AMG batteries for the vehicle power system. What
else is there. Is there any type of DC/DC converters
in them? 96v,120v,144v, to 12v for vehicle power?
Some of the low and high voltage relays could be used.
Maybe some of the metal for battery boxes. And 0 to
5000 Ohm potentiometers in them? Possible the
transformers for charging the battery banks in the
EV's. I'm sure many of the parts can be re-used. I
know I'm not thinking of all the possibility's. And
back to the DC/AC UPS. Do you have a UPS that will
except 120volt DC input for 120v AC output? Would
love to get a hold of one. I think it's the easiest
and least expensive way to accomplish what I want to
do. Thanks again,....
Jim
--- Pat Galliher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That's my dilemma, Jim. I don't know what is usable
> in the EV community. If
> it's in computers and/or office equipment, I
> probably have it....
> Any help on what to look for?
>
> Pat
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jim, Saturn Guy
> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 9:15 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
>
> Would love to get a hold of one of those UPS units.
> I
> have a few myself, but they all only except 48
> volts.
> Although they do have a 2,800 watt output at 120v.
> That would be enough. I thought of splitting my
> battery bank for the UPS, but it would be unbalanced
> and still over the voltage limit of the UPS. So
> what
> do you have available? And what other types of
> electronic components do you have that may be of use
> to the EV community? Thank you...
>
> Jim Dawson
>
>
> --- Pat Galliher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Jim,
> > There are a number of existing computer system UPS
> > that use between 120v and
> > 132v DC and convert it to AC. It would be a very
> > simple matter to connect
> > one to the battery pack of your car. I'm an
> > electronics recycler and also
> > new to the forum. I have (literally) tons of stuff
> > that comes through my
> > place that I wonder if it could be put to good use
> > on an EV. The UPSs that I
> > get all have deep cycle batteries in them, but I
> > think they are too small to
> > be of any use. The largest I've noticed are 24 AH
> > rated. Most are 7-12 AH
> > rated. But it would seem some of the electronics
> > could be used for EV
> > projects.
> >
> > Pat
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Jim, Saturn Guy
> > Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 6:34 PM
> > To: EVlist
> > Subject: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
> >
> > Hello all. I just joined the list and have spent
> > hours reading through some
> > of the archives. I would like to pick your brains
> a
> > bit and ask if anyone
> > has built a DC/AC converter for an Electric
> Vehicle.
> > I converted a 94
> > Saturn SL1 and have been driving it since January
> of
> > this year. I would
> > like to build an on-board DC/AC converter that
> runs
> > off the 126 volt pack
> > of my EV and puts out 110v ac to run vital parts
> of
> > the house in the event
> > of power outage. All that energy stored and only
> > have it for the EV feels
> > limited. So, has anyone built or bought one?
> I've
> > found nothing out there
> > as of yet, but the web feels almost as vast as
> space
> > its self. If you don't
> > have a specific spot you're aiming for, you could
> be
> > out there wandering
> > aimlessly for ever. Thank you to whom ever reads
> > this post. I know all of
> > your time is important and I do appreciate it.
> >
> > Thank you
> > Jim Dawson
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
> > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.6/863 -
> > Release Date: 6/23/2007
> > 11:08 AM
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.6/863 -
> > Release Date: 6/23/2007
> > 11:08 AM
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> ________
> Got a little couch potato?
> Check out fun summer activities for kids.
>
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> s=bz
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.6/865 -
> Release Date: 6/24/2007
> 8:33 AM
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.6/865 -
> Release Date: 6/24/2007
> 8:33 AM
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>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.6/865 - Release Date: 6/24/2007
8:33 AM
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.6/865 - Release Date: 6/24/2007
8:33 AM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Firefly Batteries is a great concept! But then again, they are just a
concept. Tell us how they perform and give us all the insiders!
On 6/24/07, Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Wondering if anyone has any thoughts on these? I sort of have an in
with the company to test some in my EV (probably about 5 or 10%
probability, but that's better than no contacts)... but as of yet all
I've seen is hype, not specs. BMS required? Discharge rate? cycles?
Thermal management? Not even sure if they really exist yet.... I
supposed I could ask my contact there, but I figured someone on this
list might have already researched them more than I have.
Z
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"That was a great explanation, may I use that on www.7change.com ?"
Are you talking to me?? If you do put that on your website make sure
that what I said was correct and that you DON'T put my name on your
website. Just put anonymous.
On 6/24/07, Rob Hogenmiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
That was a great explanation, may I use that on www.7change.com ?
God bless
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Tahbaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: VOLTS vs AMPS
> Well, sort of, not really. This is my understanding...
>
> Amps x Volts = Watts
>
> What are watts? Watt is power, NOT energy!
>
>
> What are amps? Well, amps are how quickly the electricity moves. More
> amps, which means the electricity is moving faster, which means more
> watts (power)
>
>
> Now to describe voltage you'll need to understand something else
> first. A Negative charge and a positive charge attract, right? Well
> the attraction between a negative and positive is voltage. That
> electrical attracting force is voltage. More voltage, more force, more
> watts. (power)
>
> And when you multiply the two together you get watts!
>
> More amps means more power, and more voltage means more power too.
> Now, more amps basically creates torque, which is good for
> acceleration. Using more voltage basically means more rpm (rotation
> per minute) which is better for achieving a high speed. So
> basically... amps= torque....voltage=rpm....amps x volts=watts
>
>
> "AMPS seem to be how long the vehicle can go"
>
> Amps-hours is how far the vehicle can go, NOT amps. An amp-hour is one
> amp running for one hour. That's all I know about amp-hours really.
> (Well, there's Peukert's Exponent but that's something else.)
>
> To everyone out there:
> Please correct any mistakes I made. We can't have electrical blasphemy
> on this mailing list!
>
> On 6/24/07, Rob Hogenmiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> So far I've come to the conclusion that VOLTS is the major power
>> contributor, the higher the VOLTS the more power the motor can make the
>> vehicle go.
>>
>> AMPS seem to be how long the vehicle can go, the more AMPS the batteries
>> have the longer the vehicle can drive before being charged.
>>
>> There also seems to be some correlation with the AMPS in regards to
>> power.
>>
>> Does anyone have any quick comments or suggestive reading.
>>
>> God bless
>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Rob,
All standard stock couplers, sprockets and sheaves are either shaft key or
taper lock. There is a adapter bushing that is spline for the shaft and key
to fit any standard pulley, something like a taper lock bushing.
Try Browning Bearing Company or Dodge Power Transmission Components which
are the two big world wide companies.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Hogenmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 9:12 PM
Subject: Custom Gears
> Is there a well known company that makes custom gears/sprockets to go on
> splined shafts?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, June 24, 2007 10:57 pm, Joseph Tahbaz wrote:
> "That was a great explanation, may I use that on www.7change.com ?"
>
> Are you talking to me?? If you do put that on your website make sure
> that what I said was correct and that you DON'T put my name on your
> website. Just put anonymous.
I think what you've said is pretty much correct. I'll offer a few
additional points, below:
>> > Amps x Volts = Watts
>> >
>> > What are watts? Watt is power, NOT energy!
And, watt-hours (kilowatt-hours, etc) are units of energy. Power can
therefore be defined as a rate of energy flow.
>> >
>> >
>> > What are amps? Well, amps are how quickly the electricity moves. More
>> > amps, which means the electricity is moving faster, which means more
>> > watts (power)
>> >
>> >
>> > Now to describe voltage you'll need to understand something else
>> > first. A Negative charge and a positive charge attract, right? Well
>> > the attraction between a negative and positive is voltage. That
>> > electrical attracting force is voltage. More voltage, more force, more
>> > watts. (power)
>> >
>> > And when you multiply the two together you get watts!
Note that all forms of power can be expressed in 2 parts -- a force, and a
velocity or rate at which that force is applied. (So, three things if you
take velocity apart into a distance and time.) Electricity has volts and
amps. Air power (like pneumatic shop tools) use PSI and CFM. Rotating
shaft power is expressed in lb-ft (or N-m) of torque and RPM.
>> > More amps means more power, and more voltage means more power too.
>> > Now, more amps basically creates torque, which is good for
>> > acceleration. Using more voltage basically means more rpm (rotation
>> > per minute) which is better for achieving a high speed. So
>> > basically... amps= torque....voltage=rpm....amps x volts=watts
Remember that this is not necessarily an inherent quality of volts and
amps, but is a characteristic of how most DC motors behave. With inductive
AC motors for example, frequency determines shaft RPM by setting the RPM
of the spinning magnetic field, and the delta between the field RPM and
rotor RPM acts like a DC motor's input/back EMF voltage delta in
determining how much current the motor will draw, in order to accelerate
to equilibrium.
>> > Amps-hours is how far the vehicle can go, NOT amps. An amp-hour is one
>> > amp running for one hour. That's all I know about amp-hours really.
>> > (Well, there's Peukert's Exponent but that's something else.)
As I suggested in my last post, an amp-hour is a quantity of electrical
charge. Something like a quantity of water in a pipe, or air in a
pneumatic hose. It flows through a conductor, when pushed by some force
(expressed in volts). Just like the water or air, a quantity of charge
like an amp-hour (and therefore also an amp, or rate of flow) doesn't
equate to power or energy by itself -- you have to know how hard it's
being pushed, as it flows.
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Will this motor work for a lawn mower?
Here are the stats on the 35 lb motor, which was made by
Marathon Electric Mfg. Corp. in Wausau, WI. The plate on it states it is:
direct current,
12 volt,
1/3 HP,
35 amp,
600 RPM,
5 minute duty,
Relay-none,
Model 2A56E8E5A W,
Inspected Electric Motor for Hazardous Location, Class T, Group D, F567698.
I've been told that the 5 min duty refers to how long it could run when
drawing 35 amps and that if I run it at only 20 amps it would last longer
than the batteries. I've also been told that I could add batteries to make
it a 36-48 volt system and this would result in higher RPM.
If this motor would be acceptable for an electric mower, then would I need a
controller?
I have a Craftsman self-propelled mower I could convert, but would a riding
lawn mower be better?
Thanks,
Tad
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Ed
When I was looking at doing this I found many battery manufacturers stated
there was up to 10% loss. Most say you can do it but don't talk about the
consequences. If your not putting them all on their side I wondered about how
this would affect trying to keep them in balance? Since keeping AGM batteries
in balance is hard enough when they are all the same. Then if you put them all
on there side losing up to 10% is quite a hit.
I decided it was better top up.
Don Blazer
In a message dated 6/24/2007 6:41:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Battery experts,
I'm considering installing Hawker Odyssey batteries in
an EV. In order to optimize space, I'd like to place
some of these on end, vertically. AGMs are described
by the manufacturer as being able to install in every
position except upside-down. What is the impact of
having some batteries in a different orientation from
the rest (about have standard, half on end not side)?
Thanks for your insights and feedback.
Ed
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jukka
All these claims below sound great but unless you take care of the prior
buyers of TS I will not be considering them. I would want to see real world
results with users here. I just ordered two motors from Victor and will be
reviewing my options on batteries.
The prior buyers were sold bad product and that has not been addressed.
Your company choose to keep the name and as far as I am concerned there is a
price for doing that. In one of your emails you stated how long must one
live with the past of a different company same name. To discourage this type
of
customer service most people here and myself will say forever.
On the subject line I hear A123 batteries keep in balance very well.
Don Blazer
In a message dated 6/24/2007 12:11:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Balancing only during charging will get the job half way done. With
shunting you'll accumulate quite bad well-to-wheel efficiency. Also the
charging time will be longer.
During discharge balancing is quite useful since you'll get the most of
range out too. And not stressing the weakest link the most. Also the
discharging can be weary process.
With Lions you'll get the range and at least in my drivings it takes
several hours to deplete the batteries. So power is not the issue with
balancing. You have time for the compensation procedures. Also
pre-emptive balancing methods are essential.
Ok. Say you wish the pack to last 50 000 miles. You'll get away with 200
mile range and 250 cycles. No balancing required. Some tape, bubble gum
and protection circuits will do the job.
So how about if the 3000 cycles could be achieved with the best BMS ever
made? That's with 70% average DOD about 400 000 miles. Say you invest
the 30 000 on the pack with BMS and charger. That's 0,075 USD for a mile !
(20 kWh/100 km assumed as average here)
-Jukka
Tony Hwang kirjoitti:
> Yes that would be better to move charge around instead of shunting, but
there's no way to make an active charge shuttling balancer for "cheap", at
least not that I know of.
>
> - Tony
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 5:39:45 AM
> Subject: RE: Cheap "balancer" for A123 pack
>
> Please educate me if I am wrong but I would think that if you want to
> balance your batteries you wouldn't want to drain some down to match the
> others but charge the low ones to match the others. Using shunt
> regulators will waste valuable charging current won't it? I think Lee
> Hart makes a battery balancer that takes the current and shunts it
> AROUND the battery but does not run it through a resistor.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Marcin Ciosek
> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 5:12
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Cheap "balancer" for A123 pack
>
> Tony,
>
> recently I bough 1900 LiFP cells (not from A123 but it doesn't matter)
> and the voltage difference between highest and lowest value was 7mV !!
> Assuming you will start from similar point you balancer will do the
> trick as long as zener diodes won't differ too much (usually tolerance
> of of shunt voltage is 5%). That's my opinion. I would add a protection
> circuit preventing cells from deep discharge.
> If you don't need fancy BMS that would cost (for you configuration) 400E
> this will work fine.
>
> Marcin
>
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> The number of 'poles' in a motor is determined by how the coils
>> are interconnected.
....
>lamination that they can use for 2, 4, 6, or whatever number of poles
>they want. They just wind the same basic stack to produce the desired
>number of poles.
Yes, but you can wind a motor to have either 4 poles or 2 poles
depending on how a few external connections are wired. That is
how the two-speed washing machine motors are done up, and also
two-speed motors for other industrial applications (pre-VFD).
So you have to be able to change the number of poles by how the
coils are interconnected - it's not just hard-wired into the motor
but can be varied (by coil switching) if required. Granted,
most motors are wound with the coil groups done up as one
continuous wire, not separate coils with separate interconnects,
in which case, of course, the number of poles is fixed by that
wiring and winding which is all integrated.
>Yes; it would be exactly like a typical DC motor with a 36-slot
>armature. :-)
Almost, but if you excited each winding with a sinewave, it wouldn't
be quite that... each winding would only be taking a peak current
of 30 to 50 amperes with an average... ie. the electronic commutator
would not be a simple switch but rather, a sine wave generator - or
eighteen of them.
This trades off control complexity (which is cheap) with difficulty
in design (designing and building a reliable 1000 amp power stage
is tough, designing a 50 amp power stage is relatively trivial).
>Exactly! Each bar in a commutator only has to carry the full current
>very briefly, as it passes under a brush. That's how they can survive.
>In effect, you have a large number of small switches sharing the load.
Yes, but of course with semiconductors, the average current is not
as important (well it is but not the first thing to check...). The
peak current is. If the electronics were to be done using 90 ampere
switches, the peak current would have to be below that. That's where
driving it sine-wave would make somewhat more sense to me. The peak
to average ratio of a brushed motor or a square-commutated BLDC is
a lot higher than the peak to average ratio of a sine wave.
Yes, I think you got almost all of what my idea was... maybe it's
not worth doing anything about, or maybe it might be interesting,
I don't know yet. If I get some time I might try winding a small
motor this way and playing with it. I want to get my EV project on
the road first, though...
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rob,
FWIW I wrote up a brief explanation of how electrical units relate to
one another, have a read here:
http://zeva.com.au/tech.php?section=theory
And some info about how motor speed controllers work for the Make It
discussion:
http://zeva.com.au/tech.php?section=controllers
Out of interest, I'm building a motor speed controller at present and
I will have to agree that it can be done quite a lot cheaper than the
price of the Curtis units. They are a 20 year old design now, and
semiconductor technology (both transistors and microcontrollers) has
improved quite a lot in the last few decades. e.g you can now get
individual MOSFETs with about 1/10th the on-resistance of those used
in the Curtis controllers.
-Ian
On 25/06/2007, at 10:23 AM, Rob Hogenmiller wrote:
So far I've come to the conclusion that VOLTS is the major power
contributor, the higher the VOLTS the more power the motor can make
the vehicle go.
AMPS seem to be how long the vehicle can go, the more AMPS the
batteries have the longer the vehicle can drive before being charged.
There also seems to be some correlation with the AMPS in regards to
power.
Does anyone have any quick comments or suggestive reading.
God bless
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is your scientific background Wayland?
your assessment of my understanding seems to indicate that you don't
have a lot. you might simply be confusing my statements with those of
others.
I am impressed that so much power can be channelled in so small devices
but it's the power transistors that impress me. not putting them
together. and as it turns out those power transistors can be
surprisingly cheap. for instance Oatmeal has said he pays around 160$
for the transistors in a zilla1k : )
all 1000amps worth of them. so color me naive for thinking we can do
something amazing on the price of a 350V 500A DC controller if kept KISSy
that's 230 horsies for those without a scientific background
Dan
John Wayland wrote alot:
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can't really balance A123 Systems cells at anything between about
10% SOC and 90% SOC. The open circuit voltage really does not change
except at the top and bottom of the SOC. The impedance also does not
change enough to sense SOC either.
If you want to balance in the middle of the charge (or at
partial discharge) your BMS must "remember" which cells needed
balancing on the previous cycle.
In reality, the A123 Systems cells are very very very
uniform in capacicty and self-discharge. Thus, you don't need to do
much balancing. Having said that, I should add that you MUST balance
very cell. Otherwise, they will inevitably get out of balance and you
will soon ruin cells.
Bill Dube'
At 01:00 PM 6/24/2007, you wrote:
Balancing only during charging will get the job half way done. With
shunting you'll accumulate quite bad well-to-wheel efficiency. Also
the charging time will be longer.
During discharge balancing is quite useful since you'll get the most
of range out too. And not stressing the weakest link the most. Also
the discharging can be weary process.
With Lions you'll get the range and at least in my drivings it takes
several hours to deplete the batteries. So power is not the issue
with balancing. You have time for the compensation procedures. Also
pre-emptive balancing methods are essential.
Ok. Say you wish the pack to last 50 000 miles. You'll get away with
200 mile range and 250 cycles. No balancing required. Some tape,
bubble gum and protection circuits will do the job.
So how about if the 3000 cycles could be achieved with the best BMS
ever made? That's with 70% average DOD about 400 000 miles. Say you
invest the 30 000 on the pack with BMS and charger. That's 0,075 USD
for a mile !
(20 kWh/100 km assumed as average here)
-Jukka
Tony Hwang kirjoitti:
Yes that would be better to move charge around instead of shunting,
but there's no way to make an active charge shuttling balancer for
"cheap", at least not that I know of.
- Tony
----- Original Message ----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 5:39:45 AM
Subject: RE: Cheap "balancer" for A123 pack
Please educate me if I am wrong but I would think that if you want to
balance your batteries you wouldn't want to drain some down to match the
others but charge the low ones to match the others. Using shunt
regulators will waste valuable charging current won't it? I think Lee
Hart makes a battery balancer that takes the current and shunts it
AROUND the battery but does not run it through a resistor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marcin Ciosek
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 5:12
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Cheap "balancer" for A123 pack
Tony,
recently I bough 1900 LiFP cells (not from A123 but it doesn't matter)
and the voltage difference between highest and lowest value was 7mV !!
Assuming you will start from similar point you balancer will do the
trick as long as zener diodes won't differ too much (usually tolerance
of of shunt voltage is 5%). That's my opinion. I would add a protection
circuit preventing cells from deep discharge.
If you don't need fancy BMS that would cost (for you configuration) 400E
this will work fine.
Marcin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ingle,
I belive Peter is refering to the acceleration rate
with amperage draw when he says going slower.
If you draw too many amps over a short amount of time
to reach speed, your distance traveled will greatly
shorten to the amount of energy available from the
pack. Kinda like sucking down a soda really fast then
start sipping after, the soda wont last that long.
If you draw fewer amps to get to speed over a longer
amount of time, then the distance traveled will be
greater. Again sipping the soda lasts longer.
Maintaining that sip would be the controller, but it
must be enough amps to be useful to the motor to
overcome the total force needed to accelerate and/or
maintain desired speed of the vehicle.
--- Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> There is no universally correct answer to this
> question.
>
> Distance isn't directly linked to gearing like speed
> is.
>
> It's kind of indirectly linked and depends on the
> motor. It's entirely
> possible to use a motor with a single ratio
> transmission that provides
> good speed AND distance.
>
> Getting better distance requires you to slow down,
> but that is because of
> aerodynamic drag. You'll probably get your best
> distance at somewhere
> between 10-20 mph. Depending on the motor, you
> might be able to use the
> same gearing that allows the vehicle to go 90mph.
>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Behalf Of gulabrao ingle
> >> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 9:03 AM
> >> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >> Subject: whats the difference between gearing a
> motor for speed vs
> >> distance
> >>
> >>
> >> Hello All,
> >>
> >> I want to know what do we have to do to set up a
> motor and battery setup
> >> to
> >> gear it for distance vs gearing it for speed ?
> >>
> >> well I know that a car with a PbA+dc motor can
> get 130 mph @ a range of
> >> 20
> >> miles or the same setup can give me 70 mph @ 100
> miles
> >>
> >> what do I have to change or configure to achieve
> either of these goals ?
> >>
> >> is it the controller ? or is it the motor ?
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> Gulabrao
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4
> lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically
> authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you
> agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
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