EV Digest 6943
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Chargers!
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Manly EV's, RE: EV are for girls blog
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: CV Trans WAS Manly EV's, RE: EV are for girls blog
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) All this battery talk and still it depends on who you ask
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: New e-mail!!
by "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Chargers!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Wheel Hub Motors?
by "Rob Hogenmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Manly EV's, RE: EV are for girls blog
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Dependable Batteries
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) How is AGM battery perfomance impacted by orientation?
by Ed Thorpe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Wheel Hub Motors?
by "Joseph Tahbaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: All this battery talk and still it depends on who you ask
by "Joseph Tahbaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Ultimate magnetic motor design, CVT, controllers
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: Ultimate magnetic motor design, CVT, controllers
by "Joseph Tahbaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: How is AGM battery perfomance impacted by orientation?
by dale henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Making it.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) VOLTS vs AMPS
by "Rob Hogenmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: VOLTS vs AMPS
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Chargers!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
It is call a Manzanita Micro PFC charger. Models are PFC20, PFC30, and
PFC50.
The web site is: www.manzanitamicro.com or just type in Manzanita Micro
PFC charger in your search engine and a several sites will come up with
extensions of /PFC20 or PFC30 or PFC50 you can choose from.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "keith vansickle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: Chargers!
> Rolland,
> what name brand description of charger sounds verry
> versitle
> keith
> --- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hello Joseph,
> >
> > I find that a multi voltage, multi ampere charger
> > works best for me. It can
> > charge a 12 volt battery or to over 400 volts of
> > batteries at very low
> > ampere below 1 amp to at or over 50 amps with any
> > input voltages from 60 vac
> > to 250 vac.
> >
> > No input VAC voltage adjustment is required. I can
> > plug my EV into a 110,
> > 115, 120, 125, 208, 220, 230, 240 or 250 vac
> > receptacles. Depending the
> > voltage of the battery pack, just adjust the voltage
> > to about 7.5 volt for
> > every 6 volt battery or 15.0 volt for every 12 volt
> > battery, and adjust the
> > ampere from 0.01 to 50 amps, depending on the
> > receptacle rating.
> >
> > I am using a 180 volt pack of 6 volt batteries, so
> > 7.5 volts x 30 batteries
> > = 225 volts for the maximum charge voltage. For a
> > balance charge, which I
> > do every 4 months its about 7.78 volts per battery
> > or the maximum is about
> > 233.5 volts for me.
> >
> > Lets say I lose a battery, than I install a jumper
> > that I had made up in my
> > EV tool box, and then I can lower the charging
> > voltage to 225 - 7.5 = 217.5
> > volts until I get it replace.
> >
> > I can add more batteries if I want, which depends on
> > the maximum voltage
> > rating of your controller. I can go up to 300 volts
> > if I want to which is
> > the maximum pack volt I would use on the Zilla I
> > have now.
> >
> > The charger I am using is a PFC-50 charger made by
> > Manzanita Micro by Rich
> > Rudman who is on this list, and even may respond to
> > this e-mail.
> >
> > After removing 50 AH from my 260 AH batteries, it
> > may only take about 60
> > minutes or less to charge the batteries to 90 to 95
> > percent, of which the
> > battery voltage will be at the maximum voltage that
> > is dial in. It may take
> > another 30 to 60 minutes to put in the last 10
> > percent if you need to get
> > the range you need for a safe level discharge which
> > is about 50% DOD.
> >
> > My batteries are now going on 6 years using this
> > type of charger and plan to
> > go another 6 years with it.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joseph Tahbaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 2:20 PM
> > Subject: Chargers!
> >
> >
> > > On electroauto's website they show the Zivan NG3
> > charger using either
> > > 115 Volts for a slow charge or 240 volts for a
> > faster charge. I could
> > > use the 115 volt charger, just put it in the
> > trunk, and then I charge
> > > at any 110 volt outlet, right?
> > >
> > > Plus, a slower charge will enhance cycle life,
> > correct?
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
> http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HI, Loni
I'll add my comments within your post:
From: "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Manly EV's, RE: EV are for girls blog
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 16:29:10 -0700
I disagree, Electric motors ( compared to IC engines) have much broader
torque curves and are generally efficient over a wide RPM range.
Hi Phil and all,
Please show me comparison graphs with an electric motor and an ICE motor
demonstrating this at a torque value of over 100 lb-ft over a 7000 rpm
range. Broader torque curves??? I think you'll see that the torque curve
for even the best electric motor falls off precipitously with rpm
(particularly past its rated speed), and John Wayland and Bill Dube can
tell you all about asking for high output at high rpm from a
high-performance DC motor. That's just one of the ways they turn them into
plasma balls.
For a series DC motor, at least, the torque is ONLY a function of the motor
current.
So, for a typical DC motor/controller setup, the motor torque ( if you
"floor' the accelerator pedal) will be dead flat from 0 RPM until the RPM
where the controller comes out of current limit. That RPM depends on the
particular motor, and the battery pack voltage. For a 96V pack, and a 400
amp motor current limit, that would be at about 3500 RPM ( this is from the
motor performance curve). For higher voltage packs, it would be higher.
In comparison, ICE's have no torque at 0 RPM. and won't reach maximum torque
until, typically. between 3000 and 4000 RPM. Them, it falls off above that.
There is no flat range at all.
CV transmissions make the most sense for motors or engines that work best
at a very narrow RPM range. For EVs, a CV transmission would be a
solution without a problem.
I take it you're on the direct-drive side of the EV fence,
No, I'm not. My EV ( a Toyota Echo) still has it's original transmission (
5-speed) But, most EV's could probably get away with less than 5 speeds. A
lot of EV drivers never use first gear or 5th gear - except in unusual
situations. The ideal transmission for a DC conversion might be a 3-speed
with fairly widely spaced ratios. But, stock 4- or 5-speeds work fine.
but the
fact is that even electric motors have continuous duty ratings for a
reason. The closer you keep your motor to ideal efficiency/temperature/amp
draw, the longer it will last and the happier your controller and batteries
will be.
It's true that you want to operate a DC motor ( at least, for continuous
use) well above stall speed, and well below 700 RPM. But, within reasonable
limits, it doesn't care much.
And, the batteries don't care at all what the motor speed or motor current
is. They only care what the battery current is.
In a high-voltage
system for a daily driver, for example, would you rather have motor speed
at 6500 rpm at 80 mph, or 3500?
3500 RPM. That's why I kept the transmission in my car. But, it wouldn't
matter at all if the motor speed was, say, 4000 RPM or 3000 RPM instead of
3500. If it did matter , a CV transmission could help.
Phil Marino
Lon Hull,
Portland, OR
_________________________________________________________________
Picture this share your photos and you could win big!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Lon
0 to 7000 is a very wide range for an ICE. Most DC are under 6000 and if an
ICE motor is going over 6000 my experience is they give a lot up on the lower
end unless they have a super charger or turbo.
Your speed of 80 would be no problem for an AC motor at 6500.
What use were you thinking of with a CV?
I am curious about this. What are the losses of a CV transmission? Your
going to have some loss in a manual transmission what percentage are they? If
CV
have been designed for ICE motors what about one that was built for an
electric motor? It seems like it would take advantage of the broad torque
range of
an electric motor to move the vehicle faster.
As far as the solution without a problem. There is a problem with AC drives
because of the lack of high power controllers.
Don Blazer
In a message dated 6/24/2007 4:36:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> I disagree, Electric motors ( compared to IC engines) have much
broader
> torque curves and are generally efficient over a wide RPM range.
Hi Phil and all,
Please show me comparison graphs with an electric motor and an ICE motor
demonstrating this at a torque value of over 100 lb-ft over a 7000 rpm
range. Broader torque curves??? I think you'll see that the torque curve for
even the best electric motor falls off precipitously with rpm (particularly
past its rated speed), and John Wayland and Bill Dube can tell you all about
asking for high output at high rpm from a high-performance DC motor. That's
just one of the ways they turn them into plasma balls.
>
> CV transmissions make the most sense for motors or engines that work best
> at a very narrow RPM range. For EVs, a CV transmission would be a
> solution without a problem.
>
I take it you're on the direct-drive side of the EV fence, but the fact is
that even electric motors have continuous duty ratings for a reason. The
closer you keep your motor to ideal efficiency/temperature/amp draw, the
longer it will last and the happier your controller and batteries will be.
In a high-voltage system for a daily driver, for example, would you rather
have motor speed at 6500 rpm at 80 mph, or 3500?
Lon Hull,
Portland, OR
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Again, we are discussing batteries. Great. I hope to
someday (after more than 10 years) finally understand
what is a good battery for what application. I've
tried most everything myself (except A123's) and still
end up in the same situation - mostly confused.
This I have come to understand, some by talking with
others and some by my own experience, it really
depends on your particular setup and goals and if you
buy the wrong stuff, you can easily "lose" 1-2 grand
on something that doesn't work well at all.
So, here goes what I know:
Mid size car (2500 - 3000 lb)
- A good setup would by 18 x 6 V = 108 V, 550 - 1k
controller, 9" motor. Good batteries to buy ....
#1 - Trojan T-145 - when only the best will do
#2 - Trojan T-125 - if you can lose some range
#3 - Trojan T-105 or US Battery Equiv. You won't
get nearly the range or cycle life of the others. I
used US2200's myself in a 6 x 20 array and they didn't
last that long. I had battery failures after 5k
miles. That's my experience with US battery. Other's
may have had a different experience. I also used
T-105's in my first car 10 year ago. I abused them to
no end, and they held up pretty well. Still, my
performance wasn't that good.
Other ... Exide (I heard a lot of complaints over the
years, but a few success stories ... very few) ...
Energizer (from Sam's Club). I believe these are
re-branded Exide. See above. Truthfully, I am scared
to buy that stuff from Sams Club. I've just heard
some really bad stuff that the batts don't hold up at
all. To drop $1200 on a pack and have it die in a
year is risky. I've learned my lesson on that one. I
did once buy 3 replacements for my 20 pack of US2200.
They were old, so I figured the Sam's club was
comparable. It worked OK, I guess. That was several
years ago, 3 cars back.
Truck - small one S-10 / Ranger
20 - 24 Golf Cart batts if you want range. Same batts
as for the mid size car.
Now, to my knowledge, none of these options gets you
great acceleration. It may be acceptable to some, but
others may find it totally unacceptable. Others like
me, having seen and driven a lot of EV's over the
years.
Some answers ...
Get a smaller car. That is what I did. But, now I
can only fit in 12-14 batts max. So, I get very
little range.
Get a better controller, but you still need real real
good batts to run that controller. So, how much good
does a 1k controller do you if you have a 108 V pack
of T-105's. OK. I know it does help, don't get me
wrong, but if you drain those things at high rates,
even Trojan, you are seriously shortening their life.
Maybe just better to stick with the 500 - 600 A
controller. Now, with other batts like US Battery,
Exide ... other off brand. I "hear through the EVDL
grapevine" that they can't handle the high current.
Even 350 A is a problem for them, so I've just heard.
No, on my batts, which I don't want to get into again
because we all know what happened to them, I figure
they were only good for short bursts of about 200 A,
and cruise at 50 - 70 A max. That isn't going to get
you very far, which is why I had so many issues with
them. Be careful about those ratings on those labels.
Now, there is 8 V. I really don't get why people use
them. They have 6 V cars and want to lighten them up
for better performance. Then, they put in 8 V. They
get shorter range, and less cycle life. In some
cases, significantly less. I had 13 T-875's in my
current car. That's all that would fit, and it gets
up to 104 V. Not a great solution at all in my book.
I wonder if the car would have been better off with 12
T-145's, running at 72 V. I really do wonder about
that and if I should change over to golf cart batts
and 72 V with the next pack. The thing is I have no
idea what that will do to my acceleration and top
speed in each gear. I expect it will get very bad.
But, at the same time, if they can put out more amps,
isn't that somewhat the same lower voltage and higher
amps vs higher voltage and lower amps. I know about
loss in the cables and stuff, but how much is that
really? Top speed would be an issue for me. Can I
fix that by advancing the brushes on the motor?
What about AGM?
Love them. Great power. Don't need to water them.
They are tough batts. Hard to destroy. But, in my
car, with 10 of them, I get maybe a 12-15 mile range.
That's no good, but it sure does go fast.
NiMH and LiIon (excluding A123)
I just couldn't get the drain rate I needed without a
very very large pack. Still, I see this as no
solution, unless it is a very big pack, or a secondary
booster pack to go along with an AGM pack.
A123 - seen them. Like them. Don't like the price.
Valance - seen them, like them also (although the
power is a little limited compared to AGM). Really
don't like the price at all. Especially considering
the calandar life permanent loss in capacity.
So, after all this, I still couldn't tell someone what
to put in their car. I can't even figure out a good
solution for my own car - mostly because of the
limited size and weight carrying capacity.
Any experts out there, feel free to elaborate, correct
me, or give the real answer as to what people should
use.
That's more than 2 cents worth, and enough for now.
Steve
___________________________________________________________________________________
You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck
in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, it comes across in Outlook Express.
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Tahbaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 12:07 PM
Subject: New e-mail!!
Hello, it's Joseph.
I'm new around here so I've been having some problems with my e-mail
sending in "rich" text. I switched to Gmail which provides "plain"
text too.
Everyone, can you read this message?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not on all Batteries..
Hawker Enersys like charge powers at over 1 C... more like 1.5 C.
In fact if you have a solid voltage limit on every battery Enersys says you
can charge as hard as you can source... Say 100s of amps if you can find a
big enough charger.
And yes campers .....I can!
I have digi shots of a stack of A123 cells hanging at 360 amps and 15 volts.
You can do lead this way but you have to watch temperature and voltage.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Tahbaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 1:20 PM
Subject: Chargers!
> On electroauto's website they show the Zivan NG3 charger using either
> 115 Volts for a slow charge or 240 volts for a faster charge. I could
> use the 115 volt charger, just put it in the trunk, and then I charge
> at any 110 volt outlet, right?
>
> Plus, a slower charge will enhance cycle life, correct?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are there any available wheel hub motors?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I rather have all that slipping and sliding happen in the diodes of a motor
controller..
Slipping and sliding.. are high loss events... they make heat, and that robs
power.
A bit of each is really the best approach. Wide dynamic range motor with a
two gears makes for the smallest controllers.. HUGE controllers and dual
motors allows a single "trannyless".
EV.
Oh yea I drive a EvCT... all the variable magic is done inside the twin
inverters in the Hybrid drive of my Ford Escape..
No gear shifting needed, and the variable torque is handled in the drives.
I can't think of a better example of a "bit of Both" than the current
version of a Parallel hybrid.
To get a CVT to work takes some real expertise in friction control,
metalurgy and control dynamics.
I warn most EV drive train folks away from CVT ideas and technology..enless
then are playing with a few horsepower at a time.
There are just better ways to do it.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: Manly EV's, RE: EV are for girls blog
> I agree in principle, but I still say a continuously variable transmission
> would be ideally suited to electric drive. Has even one person here tried
it
> yet? Anybody? Bueller?
>
> Lon Hull,
> Portland, OR
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:37 PM
> Subject: Re: Manly EV's, RE: EV are for girls blog
>
>
> >I think we can put this manly/transmission/ACvDC debate to bed for once
and
> >for all. Is 315 mph manly enough? Nothing electric has gone faster. The
> >Buckeye Bullet did 315 mph with a 5 speed tranny and AC.
> ><http://www.buckeyebullet.com/history.htm> If you want to go truly fast,
> >it'll take a transmission with multiple gear ratios.
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:27:30 PM
> > Subject: Manly EV's, RE: EV are for girls blog
> >
> > Hi Damon and All,
> >
> > ----- Original Message Follows -----
> > From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > Subject: RE: EV are for girls blog
> > Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:04:50 +0000
> >
> >>Well sure Jerry, there is the giiiiirly way of doing things
> >>, and then there is the MANNNNNLY way :-)
> >
> > Depends on what you call manly! I think 2 big
> > hairy,uh, motors to a diff with a Zilla in a 914/Karman
> > Ghia, Factory Five Cobra Coupe kitcar is manly in it's own
> > lean, mean, smart mans way ;^P
> > Do you really think the White Zombie would be faster
> > with a trans?
> > Of course if you want to kulge things together with
> > the added weight, drag of a trans/clutch and it's less
> > range, speed, more hassle, larger battery, EV drive to carry
> > the extra weight, drag and the larger drives, battery weight
> > too is more caveman manly. Less really is more in many
> > cases!
> > And before you say the 2 motors weigh more, consider 2
> > ES-21's/A89's will beat the stuff out of an 8" at less
> > weight and cost with much more torque, cont, peak power ;^D
> >
> > Since D+D makes each of their motors custom for you at
> > under $500 each, you can get custom windings, double shafts
> > to mate twin motors easily together and to a diff in any
> > size 6.7" from them. Since I'm going belt drive, I'll just
> > put mine nose to nose and belt off the middle.
> > As my yrs sailing at sea in small boats and building
> > boats has taught me, actually beat into me, finesse is the
> > best way by far, not brute strength in most everything. In
> > EV's, it gives you extra range, acceleration, top speed for
> > less money, pollution, energy, work!! Your choice ;^D
> > KIS,
> > Your somewhat manly friend,
> > Jerry Dycus
> >
> >>>From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >>>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >>>Subject: EV are for girls blog
> >>>Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:01:12 -0500
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hi All,
> >>> I came across this blog and it is pretty
> >>>good. Even she knew to chose a light, aero EV glider and
> >>>EV's don't need a clutch/transmission, John and Madman!
> >>>
> >>>http://www.electric-cars-are-for-girls.com/build-your-own.
> >>>html
> >>> Jerry Dycus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> > Finding fabulous fares is fun.
> > Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight
and
> > hotel bargains.
> > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lol..I was going to suggest the batteries I have until I saw the 1000 amp
draw. I know you only do it occasionally but I don't know how they'll handle
it.
I'm using Deka 8v batteries. I hit the 400 amp mark sometimes. I try to stay
away from it but I'll put the hammer down if I need to scoot out of
someone's way. It's been less than a year but they seem pretty tough.
I've driven 35 miles at varying speeds and have never run them down to 80%.
This weekend I came somewhat close. I drove the car to my reserve unit in
Baltimore only to find out that the reserve center had closed off the
parking lot for a change of command ceremony. Only guests allowed. The car
sat uncharged at maybe 40% dod for 3 hours. Finally I found an outlet and a
parking space (thank God I brought extra extension cords) The car only got 2
hours' charge at 15 amps when I got a phone call from my civilian job. I had
to rush back home to grab an ICE car and drive down to the Pentagon. When I
rolled up to my house, I was probably 60-70% dod. Acceleration was more
leisurely but the car had no trouble maintaining 55 mph or better. Total
mileage was 60 miles.
Still, I think you'd crush my batteries. Better go with the Orbitals or
something similar.
Rich A.
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 15:46:51 -0400
From: "Joseph Tahbaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Dependable Batteries
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
In my application (144 volts, drawing 1000 amps every once in a while,
Old Honda Civic/CRX) which of these batteries would be good? i.e. last
for about 2-3 years the way I'm using them.
US-8VGC? Does anyone have experience with these?
8-Volt Trojan batteries? These have a very high peukert's number though.
AGM? Optima? Orbital?
_________________________________________________________________
Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the im Initiative now.
Its free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Battery experts,
I'm considering installing Hawker Odyssey batteries in
an EV. In order to optimize space, I'd like to place
some of these on end, vertically. AGMs are described
by the manufacturer as being able to install in every
position except upside-down. What is the impact of
having some batteries in a different orientation from
the rest (about have standard, half on end not side)?
Thanks for your insights and feedback.
Ed
____________________________________________________________________________________Ready
for the edge of your seat?
Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
PML makes hub motors, though I don't know if you can just order a
bunch yourself.
On 6/24/07, Rob Hogenmiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Are there any available wheel hub motors?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What about Trojan J150 or T-1275? They seem pretty good to me.
On 6/24/07, Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Again, we are discussing batteries. Great. I hope to
someday (after more than 10 years) finally understand
what is a good battery for what application. I've
tried most everything myself (except A123's) and still
end up in the same situation - mostly confused.
This I have come to understand, some by talking with
others and some by my own experience, it really
depends on your particular setup and goals and if you
buy the wrong stuff, you can easily "lose" 1-2 grand
on something that doesn't work well at all.
So, here goes what I know:
Mid size car (2500 - 3000 lb)
- A good setup would by 18 x 6 V = 108 V, 550 - 1k
controller, 9" motor. Good batteries to buy ....
#1 - Trojan T-145 - when only the best will do
#2 - Trojan T-125 - if you can lose some range
#3 - Trojan T-105 or US Battery Equiv. You won't
get nearly the range or cycle life of the others. I
used US2200's myself in a 6 x 20 array and they didn't
last that long. I had battery failures after 5k
miles. That's my experience with US battery. Other's
may have had a different experience. I also used
T-105's in my first car 10 year ago. I abused them to
no end, and they held up pretty well. Still, my
performance wasn't that good.
Other ... Exide (I heard a lot of complaints over the
years, but a few success stories ... very few) ...
Energizer (from Sam's Club). I believe these are
re-branded Exide. See above. Truthfully, I am scared
to buy that stuff from Sams Club. I've just heard
some really bad stuff that the batts don't hold up at
all. To drop $1200 on a pack and have it die in a
year is risky. I've learned my lesson on that one. I
did once buy 3 replacements for my 20 pack of US2200.
They were old, so I figured the Sam's club was
comparable. It worked OK, I guess. That was several
years ago, 3 cars back.
Truck - small one S-10 / Ranger
20 - 24 Golf Cart batts if you want range. Same batts
as for the mid size car.
Now, to my knowledge, none of these options gets you
great acceleration. It may be acceptable to some, but
others may find it totally unacceptable. Others like
me, having seen and driven a lot of EV's over the
years.
Some answers ...
Get a smaller car. That is what I did. But, now I
can only fit in 12-14 batts max. So, I get very
little range.
Get a better controller, but you still need real real
good batts to run that controller. So, how much good
does a 1k controller do you if you have a 108 V pack
of T-105's. OK. I know it does help, don't get me
wrong, but if you drain those things at high rates,
even Trojan, you are seriously shortening their life.
Maybe just better to stick with the 500 - 600 A
controller. Now, with other batts like US Battery,
Exide ... other off brand. I "hear through the EVDL
grapevine" that they can't handle the high current.
Even 350 A is a problem for them, so I've just heard.
No, on my batts, which I don't want to get into again
because we all know what happened to them, I figure
they were only good for short bursts of about 200 A,
and cruise at 50 - 70 A max. That isn't going to get
you very far, which is why I had so many issues with
them. Be careful about those ratings on those labels.
Now, there is 8 V. I really don't get why people use
them. They have 6 V cars and want to lighten them up
for better performance. Then, they put in 8 V. They
get shorter range, and less cycle life. In some
cases, significantly less. I had 13 T-875's in my
current car. That's all that would fit, and it gets
up to 104 V. Not a great solution at all in my book.
I wonder if the car would have been better off with 12
T-145's, running at 72 V. I really do wonder about
that and if I should change over to golf cart batts
and 72 V with the next pack. The thing is I have no
idea what that will do to my acceleration and top
speed in each gear. I expect it will get very bad.
But, at the same time, if they can put out more amps,
isn't that somewhat the same lower voltage and higher
amps vs higher voltage and lower amps. I know about
loss in the cables and stuff, but how much is that
really? Top speed would be an issue for me. Can I
fix that by advancing the brushes on the motor?
What about AGM?
Love them. Great power. Don't need to water them.
They are tough batts. Hard to destroy. But, in my
car, with 10 of them, I get maybe a 12-15 mile range.
That's no good, but it sure does go fast.
NiMH and LiIon (excluding A123)
I just couldn't get the drain rate I needed without a
very very large pack. Still, I see this as no
solution, unless it is a very big pack, or a secondary
booster pack to go along with an AGM pack.
A123 - seen them. Like them. Don't like the price.
Valance - seen them, like them also (although the
power is a little limited compared to AGM). Really
don't like the price at all. Especially considering
the calandar life permanent loss in capacity.
So, after all this, I still couldn't tell someone what
to put in their car. I can't even figure out a good
solution for my own car - mostly because of the
limited size and weight carrying capacity.
Any experts out there, feel free to elaborate, correct
me, or give the real answer as to what people should
use.
That's more than 2 cents worth, and enough for now.
Steve
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Sorry, I can't read your e-mail. Go to Gmail, they have the option to
not use "rich" formatting.
On 6/24/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
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i also have a question about putting some agm
batteries on their sides. if putting the battery on
the side reduces its power where then is the best
place to put the battery?
should the on-side-battery be on the positive side,
negative side or in the middle of the pack?
--- Ed Thorpe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Battery experts,
>
> I'm considering installing Hawker Odyssey batteries
> in
> an EV. In order to optimize space, I'd like to place
> some of these on end, vertically. AGMs are described
> by the manufacturer as being able to install in
> every
> position except upside-down. What is the impact of
> having some batteries in a different orientation
> from
> the rest (about have standard, half on end not
> side)?
>
> Thanks for your insights and feedback.
> Ed
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________Ready
> for the edge of your seat?
> Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
> http://tv.yahoo.com/
>
>
Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1221
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
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Ooooo somebody Thinks they have PWM figured out...
Oh yea simple as that .. more Freq... more power....
Wrong!!!
Pulse width modulation.. the Frequency stays the same.. you vary the on time
to the off time.
Basic PWM in EVs is to be kept over the Auidible range or just over about 16
Khz.
With a large DC motor.. you don't need much faster. The faster you switch
the more heat you make in your transistors.... So Just fast enough But no
faster.
Ot uses 18.1 Khz, Curtis in the quite mode was 16Khz as I recall, and DCP
used 16 to 20Khz.
In a powerstage that uses magnetics... you have other factors to deal with,
your inductors size and heat is governed buy the frequency and current. So
the higher the Hz the smaller the magnetics. I use 50Khz on my smaller
chargers and 25Khz on the 50 amper IGBT module based power stage. We could
go higher on the 40 amp design by we are loosing bandwith on our LEM current
transducer. So 50 Khz is all we are going to get for the moment.
This desicion has held up as the product has morphed from a 20 amp product
to a 40 plus amp unit. So the original concept has proven itself.
Look up hysterectic control...
In the big world the slower you swtich the more power you can pump through
a given swtich.
Rise and fall times are still kept to a absolute minimum.
I wish you guys would do some home work before you trash those of us who
build and design power electronics on this list.
You can't find a 1000 amp power stage for on road power levels the has less
than a grand of parts in it. Look We have tried!!
We are also EVers and have had many years of breaking stuff and blowing
expensive parts up to learn our craft.
You might ask in a more mellow tone what can be done and how it should be
done, than to say we are just Screwing our best friends and fellow EVers out
of thousands of dollar to make Controllers and chargers for us all.
Hey I thaught I could do it and set the world on the right path.. that took
about 15 years and uncounted set backs and effort.
Use 16 kilohertz as your Base PWM frequency.
Find Buy or design a throttle input Pot based throttle sensor to PWM
conveter. You can start with a 555 timer chip. When you get that going.
Then Find buy or desing a Vsat Gate control chip. We use the IXBD4410Pi chip
set from IXYS. This allows for a stiff gate control with a adjustable
current thresholdcut off point.
It also has a good amp drive so you can parallel quite a few IGBTs or
Fets, It's also good for 600 volt devices.
This chip gives you good pulse by pulse current limit control.
Outside this loop you need a average current control strategy... The Curtii
and the DCP did not use this concept and it is thier weak link with large
motors and stuff batteries.
We use the TI UC3854BN chip as our PWM control and PFC control chip.. it
can be strapped to do just DC input also.
The motor current loop has to have a current sensor for this chip set.. this
allows the chip to seak and hold a given motor current.
Otmar at EVCL does all his current measurements and control with a PIC micro
chip. I use of the shelf solutions that are much easier to plug and play
from App notes.
OK instead of Deleting your brash claims about how cheap a speed controller
or Ev Charger should be I have given you enough to do some research on your
own.
To answer your question. Just above the hearing of most folks and that is:
16Khz. The rise, and fall times are about 50 Nanoseconds. FAST.. saves
heat in the devices. Rather important point.
The on to off times are variable. %100 power is full on and 0% on time is
full off.
At 100% Pwm most control loop chip sets get in trouble... they measure the
voltage across the transistor junction..while on and off and look at the
two.
So full on should be like %99.875 and off is full off. make sure your Gate
drive chip can support both conditions, and not go to sleep on you.
Ok now build the power stage..
Ask and don't demean.. and we will help.
You fly off the handle.. and we don't have the time for a foolish newbie's
training.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:00 AM
Subject: Make it
>
> Seeing how a controller is only a on off switch that has a frequency that
> varries .. The faster it goes the faster you go ..
>
> I am sure this can be reproduced without spending 700 bucks..
>
> The question I need to know is at what rate dose the average controllers
on
> and off frequency change to and from.
> In time sec .and How many time in a sec . To archive O to max speed
>
> Mitchell
>
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So far I've come to the conclusion that VOLTS is the major power
contributor, the higher the VOLTS the more power the motor can make the
vehicle go.
AMPS seem to be how long the vehicle can go, the more AMPS the batteries
have the longer the vehicle can drive before being charged.
There also seems to be some correlation with the AMPS in regards to power.
Does anyone have any quick comments or suggestive reading.
God bless
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You're confusing amps and amphours. One sort of measures power and
one sort of measures energy, which are completely different. Sort of,
because without knowing the voltage, neither means anything.
Power = volts times amps. Both are just as important to generating
power, from a physics standpoint.
Amphours = amps time hours. Amps are sort of meaningless without
knowing the voltage, but assuming you do know voltage, you know power.
Amphours (again, knowing the voltage) allows you to calculate energy
stored or used.
It's all just basic physics. Any highschool physics textbook should
have an explanation of all the details.
Z
On 6/24/07, Rob Hogenmiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
So far I've come to the conclusion that VOLTS is the major power
contributor, the higher the VOLTS the more power the motor can make the
vehicle go.
AMPS seem to be how long the vehicle can go, the more AMPS the batteries
have the longer the vehicle can drive before being charged.
There also seems to be some correlation with the AMPS in regards to power.
Does anyone have any quick comments or suggestive reading.
God bless
--
Zeke Yewdall
Chief Electrical Engineer
Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
Cell: 720.352.2508
Office: 303.459.0177
FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.cosunflower.com
CoSEIA Certified
Certified BP Solar Installer
National Association of Home Builders
Quotable Quote
"In the dark of the moon, in flying snow,
in the dead of winter, war spreading,
families dying, the world in danger,
I walk the rocky hillside
sowing clover."
Wendell Berry
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Or you can E-mail me and hope I have time to get back to you.
I haunt this list nowdays .. since I am too buys to Live on it like I used
to...
Rich Rudman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manzanita Micro
360-297-7383,
Cell 360-620-6266
Production shop 360-297-1660
FAX at Metal shop 1-360-297-3311
Thanks for the nod Roland!.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: Chargers!
> It is call a Manzanita Micro PFC charger. Models are PFC20, PFC30, and
> PFC50.
>
> The web site is: www.manzanitamicro.com or just type in Manzanita Micro
> PFC charger in your search engine and a several sites will come up with
> extensions of /PFC20 or PFC30 or PFC50 you can choose from.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "keith vansickle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 5:17 PM
> Subject: Re: Chargers!
>
>
> > Rolland,
> > what name brand description of charger sounds verry
> > versitle
> > keith
> > --- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Joseph,
> > >
> > > I find that a multi voltage, multi ampere charger
> > > works best for me. It can
> > > charge a 12 volt battery or to over 400 volts of
> > > batteries at very low
> > > ampere below 1 amp to at or over 50 amps with any
> > > input voltages from 60 vac
> > > to 250 vac.
> > >
> > > No input VAC voltage adjustment is required. I can
> > > plug my EV into a 110,
> > > 115, 120, 125, 208, 220, 230, 240 or 250 vac
> > > receptacles. Depending the
> > > voltage of the battery pack, just adjust the voltage
> > > to about 7.5 volt for
> > > every 6 volt battery or 15.0 volt for every 12 volt
> > > battery, and adjust the
> > > ampere from 0.01 to 50 amps, depending on the
> > > receptacle rating.
> > >
> > > I am using a 180 volt pack of 6 volt batteries, so
> > > 7.5 volts x 30 batteries
> > > = 225 volts for the maximum charge voltage. For a
> > > balance charge, which I
> > > do every 4 months its about 7.78 volts per battery
> > > or the maximum is about
> > > 233.5 volts for me.
> > >
> > > Lets say I lose a battery, than I install a jumper
> > > that I had made up in my
> > > EV tool box, and then I can lower the charging
> > > voltage to 225 - 7.5 = 217.5
> > > volts until I get it replace.
> > >
> > > I can add more batteries if I want, which depends on
> > > the maximum voltage
> > > rating of your controller. I can go up to 300 volts
> > > if I want to which is
> > > the maximum pack volt I would use on the Zilla I
> > > have now.
> > >
> > > The charger I am using is a PFC-50 charger made by
> > > Manzanita Micro by Rich
> > > Rudman who is on this list, and even may respond to
> > > this e-mail.
> > >
> > > After removing 50 AH from my 260 AH batteries, it
> > > may only take about 60
> > > minutes or less to charge the batteries to 90 to 95
> > > percent, of which the
> > > battery voltage will be at the maximum voltage that
> > > is dial in. It may take
> > > another 30 to 60 minutes to put in the last 10
> > > percent if you need to get
> > > the range you need for a safe level discharge which
> > > is about 50% DOD.
> > >
> > > My batteries are now going on 6 years using this
> > > type of charger and plan to
> > > go another 6 years with it.
> > >
> > > Roland
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Joseph Tahbaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > > Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 2:20 PM
> > > Subject: Chargers!
> > >
> > >
> > > > On electroauto's website they show the Zivan NG3
> > > charger using either
> > > > 115 Volts for a slow charge or 240 volts for a
> > > faster charge. I could
> > > > use the 115 volt charger, just put it in the
> > > trunk, and then I charge
> > > > at any 110 volt outlet, right?
> > > >
> > > > Plus, a slower charge will enhance cycle life,
> > > correct?
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
> > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
>
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