EV Digest 7021
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Curtis 1221B - help! (or rebuild?)
by Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Opinion on Brammo Enertia bike?
by Aaron Quinto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: One question of many
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: One question of many
by "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Opinion on Brammo Enertia bike?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) FuelVapor Technologies - fuel efficient vehicle automobile high mileage
ale'
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Opinion on Brammo Enertia bike?
by "Kip C. Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Curtis 1221B - help! (or rebuild?)
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: One question of many
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Short Range Battery Pack
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: Short Range Battery Pack
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: FuelVapor Technologies
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: FuelVapor Technologies
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: FuelVapor Technologies
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: powering 12v cooling fan from pack voltage
by Markus Lorch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: a little thought problem for the list
by "owen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Efficiency of lead acid batteries
by Rob&Amy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Ideal conversion candidate? Aussies are Lucky.
by "Shaun Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Electric Evette
by "Tom S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Curtis 1221B - help!
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: New guy seeking knowledge
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I have some info to add from my testing...
If I disconnect the motor the new used Cursit successfully
precharges. My guess is that its internally shorted. I'm pretty sure
that symptom means dead (but with no escaping damage it may be
rebuildable.)
Who is currently in the business of rebuilding old Curtis
controllers? The one in question is a 1221B-7401. I doubt the one I
flamed out (a 1221B-7403) is rebuildable.
Thanx,
Paul "neon" Gooch
On Jul 12, 2007, at 3:23 PM, Paul wrote:
The old Curtis 1221b in my buggy died a flaming death so I had to
install a new (used) one. The newer 1221B doesn't seem to
precharge, my 7.5 watt light bulb precharge resistor sits there
with a full 130 volts across it.
Basic specs:
1221b replacing previous one with no 120 volt system changes.
12 volt system is currently off and disconnected (no interference
here)
A single Albright SW200 contactor is used on the 120 volt positive
lead to the controller
A KUEP (150 VDC) relay controls ksi input (controller B+ to relay
to ksi)
The above 2 relays are both powered by ignition + (and have been
verified to be off)
The 7.5 watt precharge light bulb is across the contactor
So, I replace the dead 1221b with the other one I had and wire
everything up. I screw in the precharge bulb and it lights full
brightness. 2 minutes later its still at full brightness (precharge
took around 20 seconds with the previous 1221b.) I measure the
voltage across the open contactor and it reads 130 volts (matches
the pack voltage to within 1 volt.)
I'm going to go out and start checking everything again today, but
I did that last night and didn't find anything obvious. Any ideas
on what I should check would be appreciated.
I'll check my e-mail regularly while I'm studying the problem. 2
tests that come to mind are pulling a motor lead off and seeing if
the controller still doesn't precharge (if it does its likely
internally shorted) and trying a higher wattage light bulb in case
the older controller had an overly high value input cap bleeder
resistor.
Thanx,
Paul "neon" Gooch
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I figure 2 more batteries and another 10-15 MPH top speed and I would
get it. Even for a few thousand more (based on the $12k price).
There's a new job I applied for that is 25 miles from my house (1
way) with 10 miles of 55 mph speed limits (normal traffic is 60-65 on
the hills). That's my limitation on it, but otherwise, I like it too.
Good acceleration and no shifting.
Aaron
At 05:54 PM 07/12/2007, you wrote:
http://www.enertiabike.com/
i am interested in this. i like the use of carbon fiber for
strength and weight. the use of the valence lithium phosphate
batteries seem hi-tech...hehe...though i don't like how high they
are mounted. it does help keep the look not so boxy as other
attempts. and of course the $15K initial cost is hard to
swallow. even the cheaper production run to come later is still
high for my taste.
what do others think?
mike sandman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The previous responses about steering effort aren't really that acccurate.
Well they are accurate if you do something stupid like convert the car
and leave the non-functioning power steering pump installed.
The effort it takes to turn the wheel without the pump running includes
the effort to force the fluid through the stalled pump.
If you connect a hydrualic line from the input to the output on the power
steering rack, this effort goes down dramatically. Almost as low as using
a manual rack.
Of course even using a manual rack on a heavy vehicle is going to take
some effort.
The Stratus weighs about 2900 lbs, so that's kind of mediocre weight wise.
Adding a 1/2 ton of batteries is going to make it a bit heavier though.
Asside from bypassing the pump, or replacing the rack with a manual unit,
you have a couple other options: you can use a electric motor with a tail
shaft and drive the original pump off of that, you can add a small
electric motor to drive the pump, or you can get an electric power
steering pump from an old MR2 or something similar.
> I'm new to the list and just bought my first donor car. Good, bad or
> other, it is a 95 Dodge Stratus.
> It has power steering assist and I'm wondering how hard it will steer
> with out this as an EV ?
>
> Rice in ABQ
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would it be terribly inefficient to run the ICE power steering pump
with a small electric motor instead of using an OEM electric unit?
--
Tehben
'90 Toyota 4x4 Pickup
'hElix EV'
evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Considering the rash of electric motorcycles introduced in recent years
that NEVER make it to the market, I think I'll reserve my opinion for this
bike until after it actually becomes available.
> http://www.enertiabike.com/
>
> i am interested in this. i like the use of carbon fiber for strength
> and weight. the use of the valence lithium phosphate batteries seem
> hi-tech...hehe...though i don't like how high they are mounted. it does
> help keep the look not so boxy as other attempts. and of course the $15K
> initial cost is hard to swallow. even the cheaper production run to
> come later is still high for my taste.
>
> what do others think?
>
> mike sandman
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well this does change the rules.
http://www.fuelvaporcar.com/index.html
92 mpg 180 hp.
It does make me wonder though how much of that is due to extreme
lightweight and basically a three wheel motorcycle?
What what the performance of a slick electric vehicle of these
dimensions be?
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think for a ready-to-roll bike, they could do allot better on the price.
Brammo's downfall on this will be it's penchant for overengineering, which
works well for the Atom, but not for a vehicle that is intended to be
marketed for it's environmental frugality. The only people likely to
purchase the Enertia will be non-DIY'ers who already have an Atom or at
least the cash sitting idle to purchase one. It's a tech toy, not something
that will be seen as serious transportation for people to get around on even
if it does really fit that bill for that at it's lofty price.
-Kip
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Sandman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 2:54 PM
Subject: Opinion on Brammo Enertia bike?
http://www.enertiabike.com/
i am interested in this. i like the use of carbon fiber for strength and
weight. the use of the valence lithium phosphate batteries seem
hi-tech...hehe...though i don't like how high they are mounted. it does
help keep the look not so boxy as other attempts. and of course the $15K
initial cost is hard to swallow. even the cheaper production run to come
later is still high for my taste.
what do others think?
mike sandman
--
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database:
269.9.14/884 - Release Date: 7/2/2007 3:35 PM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FYI Mike Brown took old 1221s, and sent them to
Curtis + $500 for an upgrade to a 1231-8601. This was
7 years ago, so I don't know what the charge is, and I
also don't know how much more it would be with an
internal short. But it's something to consider...
--- Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have some info to add from my testing...
>
> If I disconnect the motor the new used Cursit
> successfully
> precharges. My guess is that its internally shorted.
> I'm pretty sure
> that symptom means dead (but with no escaping damage
> it may be
> rebuildable.)
>
> Who is currently in the business of rebuilding old
> Curtis
> controllers? The one in question is a 1221B-7401. I
> doubt the one I
> flamed out (a 1221B-7403) is rebuildable.
>
> Thanx,
> Paul "neon" Gooch
>
> On Jul 12, 2007, at 3:23 PM, Paul wrote:
>
> > The old Curtis 1221b in my buggy died a flaming
> death so I had to
> > install a new (used) one. The newer 1221B doesn't
> seem to
> > precharge, my 7.5 watt light bulb precharge
> resistor sits there
> > with a full 130 volts across it.
> >
> > Basic specs:
> > 1221b replacing previous one with no 120 volt
> system changes.
> > 12 volt system is currently off and disconnected
> (no interference
> > here)
> > A single Albright SW200 contactor is used on the
> 120 volt positive
> > lead to the controller
> > A KUEP (150 VDC) relay controls ksi input
> (controller B+ to relay
> > to ksi)
> > The above 2 relays are both powered by ignition +
> (and have been
> > verified to be off)
> > The 7.5 watt precharge light bulb is across the
> contactor
> >
> > So, I replace the dead 1221b with the other one I
> had and wire
> > everything up. I screw in the precharge bulb and
> it lights full
> > brightness. 2 minutes later its still at full
> brightness (precharge
> > took around 20 seconds with the previous 1221b.) I
> measure the
> > voltage across the open contactor and it reads 130
> volts (matches
> > the pack voltage to within 1 volt.)
> >
> > I'm going to go out and start checking everything
> again today, but
> > I did that last night and didn't find anything
> obvious. Any ideas
> > on what I should check would be appreciated.
> >
> > I'll check my e-mail regularly while I'm studying
> the problem. 2
> > tests that come to mind are pulling a motor lead
> off and seeing if
> > the controller still doesn't precharge (if it does
> its likely
> > internally shorted) and trying a higher wattage
> light bulb in case
> > the older controller had an overly high value
> input cap bleeder
> > resistor.
> >
> > Thanx,
> > Paul "neon" Gooch
> >
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel
and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Tehben,
I have run the power steering unit three different ways. One was a 180 volt
motor-generator that ran off the main battery pack, which supply 14.5 VDC at
30 amps and also power the power steering and a vacuum pump at the same
time.
The next one was turning all the accessories units with a belt drive off the
pilot shaft of the motor.
The last and still being use is a electric power steering unit and electric
motors for each accessory unit, plus the pilot shaft of the motor can engage
thru a electric clutch during the time the EV goes into regen braking, which
still provides power to the all the accessories unit, while the motor and
battery amps are at 0 amps.
I do not see any difference in the motor amperes and voltage between the
belted method and the electric motor method.
The main battery pack ampere goes up about 8 amps average using all the
electric motor drives. The motor ampere is still reads about 200 amps at 45
mph in both cases.
When you use a separate motor drive of the battery pack, make sure you come
off the load side of the main battery amp meter shunt, or your E meter will
not record the total ampere use. I use a another amp meter shunt for the
accessory drive motors, so I can see what the actual main motor ampere-hour
requires that is recorded in the E-meter.
The most efficient way for me, is to electric drive all the accessories
units and then while coast down to a stop or down a hill, the motor electric
clutch unit engages the drive units at the same time the accessories motors
go off line. At that time, all my accessories unit are still running and my
motor and main batteries are reading 0 amps.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: One question of many
> Would it be terribly inefficient to run the ICE power steering pump
> with a small electric motor instead of using an OEM electric unit?
>
>
> --
> Tehben
> '90 Toyota 4x4 Pickup
> 'hElix EV'
> evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ahhh yeah. Thats right. i just assumed it was for 144v since thats what I
focused on. Roland, can you please tell me if this was for 144v or not?
Also I live in Richmond Virginia if anyone knows of any good battery
sources around there. Roger, I think i understand the whole area under the
rectangle and all. Actually reminded me of Calculus and derivatives and
things. I know there are dozens of combinations of voltages and Ah's that
I could make but I just need a starting point and some cheap batteries to
experiment with. So far my conversion has costed 140$. Nothing for the
motor, 3/4 inch aluminium adapter, nothing for my home machine work and
use of my schools lathe. So the theme here is cheap and quick. Thanks for
everypnes help.
Paul
> Just so the nebies don't get confused...
>
> Since Roland didn't to post the pack voltage, this information is
> completely useless.
>
>> Hello Paul,
>>
>> A heavy EV in the range of 6500 to 7000 lbs requires about 3.5 AH per
>> mile
>> average where a EV that weighs about 3000 lbs might be from 1.5 to 2.5
>> AH
>> per mile.
>>
>> I can get my AH usage to about 2.5 AH per mile if I drive at 25 mph and
>> double that at 50 mph or about 550 watts per mile.
>>
>> So lets say a 3000 lb EV gets 2.5 AH per mile average, if you have the
>> right
>> overall gear ratio of over 5.5:1, then for 10 miles, you will use about
>> 25
>> AH.
>>
>> You could use a 50 AH battery which you could go 10 miles discharging to
>> 50%
>> DOD which your batteries will last twice as long as if you took them to
>> 80%
>> DOD.
>>
>> Roland
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 10:02 AM
>> Subject: RE: Short Range Battery Pack
>>
>>
>>> You offered some great ideas. Instead of buying brand new batterries
>>> just
>>> to be destroyed by my lack of knowledge and experience I will look for
>>> some used PSU batteries. My next question is "How many Ah's do I need
>>> for
>>> a small car to travel 10 miles on 144v in moderate driving conditions?"
>>> Just looking for round numbers. Looking for 80% DOD I want the lowest
>>> Ah
>>> that will do this but don't know where to start at. Maybe an average of
>>> 50
>>> mph. What might that Ah equate to in 48v?(I know my top speed will drop
>>> drastically)
>>> Thanks,
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>> > I'm ready to buy batteries now for my conversion... 77 datsun 280z...
>>> > 48v forklift motor... I want a short range EV with lots of pickup...
>>> > I think I also want AGM's... I would like to know what is the
>>> > cheapest pack I can put together with greater than 140v and range for
>>> > 5 to 10 miles...
>>>
>>> > I don't want sophisticated. Just cheap and fairly light, small.
>>>
>>> That is a formula for a very short battery life. If that is acceptable
>>> (for example, you just want a car to race on weekends, then I would
>>> suggest some cheap flooded combination marine/starting batteries. They
>>> won't last long (maybe 100 cycles), but are cheap and will deliver the
>>> high currents for a high "fun" factor.
>>>
>>> AGMs to do the same thing will cost 2-3 times more. They can last twice
>>> as long *if* you use a good charger and BMS (battery management
>>> system).
>>> If you use a cheap charger and no BMS, the AGMs will also die in
>>> 100-200
>>> cycles.
>>>
>>> Perhaps the cheapest way to get low cost and still be able to draw high
>>> currents for fast acceleration is to get *used* AGM batteries. The ones
>>> that are used in large UPS power supplies are often automatically
>>> replaced every 2-3 years, and available surplus for perhaps 1/2 to 1/4
>>> of their cost new. You could use them with simple chargers and a very
>>> primitive BMS. They would die quickly, but at least are cheap.
>>>
>>> A range of only 5-10 miles and fast driving means you are discharging
>>> the batteries in perhaps 15 minutes at most. This is really the forte
>>> of
>>> things like the BB600 nicad aircraft starting batteries. You can
>>> sometimes find them surplus for very good prices. The downside is that
>>> they require a *lot* of work to rejevante, install, and maintain. But
>>> if
>>> you have lots of time and little money, they would make a very fast
>>> short-range EV! And, they have the potential to last a long time --
>>> they
>>> are more likely to die from screw-ups and abuse than from being worn
>>> out.
>>>
>>> > I was told by Jim that 144v might get me decent performance with
>>> > advanced brushes.
>>>
>>> 144v is possible on a 48v forklift motor; but it will require some
>>> rebuilding and finesse, which will cost time/money. Don't expect to
>>> just
>>> twist the brush assembly and go.
>>>
>>> How successful you will be with your project depends on just how
>>> cheaply
>>> you want to do it, and how much performance you expect. You won't get
>>> silk-purse performance out of sows-ear parts unless you know a *lot*
>>> about what you are doing, and are willing to put a *lot* of time in it.
>>>
>>> I suppose some people might say, "John Wayland is driving an old Datsun
>>> with a forklift motor and a bunch of little batteries; see how well
>>> he's
>>> doing?" But this totally ignores the *huge* amount of time, money, and
>>> talent that has gone into his car!
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ring the bells that still can ring
>>> Forget the perfect offering
>>> There is a crack in everything
>>> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>> --
>>> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Paul,
My EV is 180v system, so at 144 volts, it may require about 96 AH battery if
your battery ampere is 75 amps at 50 mph. Also you may not get the full AH
rating out of a battery.
Ampere-hour capacity is a measure of how many amperes a battery can deliver
for 20 hours. For example, a battery rated for 100 ampere-hours can deliver
5 amperes for 20 hours (5 amperes x 20 hours = 1000 amp-hrs)
Actual battery capacity decreases as discharge current increases. A battery
rated at 100 ampere-hours may deliver 20 amperes for only 4 hours resulting
in 4 x 20 = 80 ampere-hours.
Look up the reserved capacity in minutes at the ampere you may use. A
typical EV average is about 75 amps. A Trojan DC-1 6 volt battery is rated
at 96 AH at a 20 hour rate, and has 185 reserved minutes at 25 amps.
But at 75 amperes, the reserved minutes are reduce to 53 minutes. The ampere
hour is also reduce:
53 min / 60 = .88 hr
.88 hr x 75 amps = 66.25 amp-hrs
Usable amp-hrs to 50% DOD is about 33.25 ah.
If you use about 2.5 ah per mile, then 33.25/2.5 = 13.25 miles using a 96 ah
battery.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: Short Range Battery Pack
> Ahhh yeah. Thats right. i just assumed it was for 144v since thats what I
> focused on. Roland, can you please tell me if this was for 144v or not?
> Also I live in Richmond Virginia if anyone knows of any good battery
> sources around there. Roger, I think i understand the whole area under the
> rectangle and all. Actually reminded me of Calculus and derivatives and
> things. I know there are dozens of combinations of voltages and Ah's that
> I could make but I just need a starting point and some cheap batteries to
> experiment with. So far my conversion has costed 140$. Nothing for the
> motor, 3/4 inch aluminium adapter, nothing for my home machine work and
> use of my schools lathe. So the theme here is cheap and quick. Thanks for
> everypnes help.
> Paul
>
>
> > Just so the nebies don't get confused...
> >
> > Since Roland didn't to post the pack voltage, this information is
> > completely useless.
> >
> >> Hello Paul,
> >>
> >> A heavy EV in the range of 6500 to 7000 lbs requires about 3.5 AH per
> >> mile
> >> average where a EV that weighs about 3000 lbs might be from 1.5 to 2.5
> >> AH
> >> per mile.
> >>
> >> I can get my AH usage to about 2.5 AH per mile if I drive at 25 mph and
> >> double that at 50 mph or about 550 watts per mile.
> >>
> >> So lets say a 3000 lb EV gets 2.5 AH per mile average, if you have the
> >> right
> >> overall gear ratio of over 5.5:1, then for 10 miles, you will use about
> >> 25
> >> AH.
> >>
> >> You could use a 50 AH battery which you could go 10 miles discharging
> >> to
> >> 50%
> >> DOD which your batteries will last twice as long as if you took them to
> >> 80%
> >> DOD.
> >>
> >> Roland
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> >> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 10:02 AM
> >> Subject: RE: Short Range Battery Pack
> >>
> >>
> >>> You offered some great ideas. Instead of buying brand new batterries
> >>> just
> >>> to be destroyed by my lack of knowledge and experience I will look for
> >>> some used PSU batteries. My next question is "How many Ah's do I need
> >>> for
> >>> a small car to travel 10 miles on 144v in moderate driving
> >>> conditions?"
> >>> Just looking for round numbers. Looking for 80% DOD I want the lowest
> >>> Ah
> >>> that will do this but don't know where to start at. Maybe an average
> >>> of
> >>> 50
> >>> mph. What might that Ah equate to in 48v?(I know my top speed will
> >>> drop
> >>> drastically)
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Paul
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>> > I'm ready to buy batteries now for my conversion... 77 datsun
> >>> > 280z...
> >>> > 48v forklift motor... I want a short range EV with lots of
> >>> > pickup...
> >>> > I think I also want AGM's... I would like to know what is the
> >>> > cheapest pack I can put together with greater than 140v and range
> >>> > for
> >>> > 5 to 10 miles...
> >>>
> >>> > I don't want sophisticated. Just cheap and fairly light, small.
> >>>
> >>> That is a formula for a very short battery life. If that is acceptable
> >>> (for example, you just want a car to race on weekends, then I would
> >>> suggest some cheap flooded combination marine/starting batteries. They
> >>> won't last long (maybe 100 cycles), but are cheap and will deliver the
> >>> high currents for a high "fun" factor.
> >>>
> >>> AGMs to do the same thing will cost 2-3 times more. They can last
> >>> twice
> >>> as long *if* you use a good charger and BMS (battery management
> >>> system).
> >>> If you use a cheap charger and no BMS, the AGMs will also die in
> >>> 100-200
> >>> cycles.
> >>>
> >>> Perhaps the cheapest way to get low cost and still be able to draw
> >>> high
> >>> currents for fast acceleration is to get *used* AGM batteries. The
> >>> ones
> >>> that are used in large UPS power supplies are often automatically
> >>> replaced every 2-3 years, and available surplus for perhaps 1/2 to 1/4
> >>> of their cost new. You could use them with simple chargers and a very
> >>> primitive BMS. They would die quickly, but at least are cheap.
> >>>
> >>> A range of only 5-10 miles and fast driving means you are discharging
> >>> the batteries in perhaps 15 minutes at most. This is really the forte
> >>> of
> >>> things like the BB600 nicad aircraft starting batteries. You can
> >>> sometimes find them surplus for very good prices. The downside is that
> >>> they require a *lot* of work to rejevante, install, and maintain. But
> >>> if
> >>> you have lots of time and little money, they would make a very fast
> >>> short-range EV! And, they have the potential to last a long time --
> >>> they
> >>> are more likely to die from screw-ups and abuse than from being worn
> >>> out.
> >>>
> >>> > I was told by Jim that 144v might get me decent performance with
> >>> > advanced brushes.
> >>>
> >>> 144v is possible on a 48v forklift motor; but it will require some
> >>> rebuilding and finesse, which will cost time/money. Don't expect to
> >>> just
> >>> twist the brush assembly and go.
> >>>
> >>> How successful you will be with your project depends on just how
> >>> cheaply
> >>> you want to do it, and how much performance you expect. You won't get
> >>> silk-purse performance out of sows-ear parts unless you know a *lot*
> >>> about what you are doing, and are willing to put a *lot* of time in
> >>> it.
> >>>
> >>> I suppose some people might say, "John Wayland is driving an old
> >>> Datsun
> >>> with a forklift motor and a bunch of little batteries; see how well
> >>> he's
> >>> doing?" But this totally ignores the *huge* amount of time, money, and
> >>> talent that has gone into his car!
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Ring the bells that still can ring
> >>> Forget the perfect offering
> >>> There is a crack in everything
> >>> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> >>> --
> >>> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> >>> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> > junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever
> > I
> > wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> > legalistic signature is void.
> >
> >
>
>
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On 12 Jul 2007 at 17:47, GWMobile wrote:
> What what (sic) the performance of a slick electric vehicle of these
> dimensions be?
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see this as particularly interesting
to EV enthusiasts. Obviously, it's another ICE design; I doubt that the
originator has any interest in making it an EV.
The curb weight is given as 1400lb. That's reasonably light, but hardly
spectacular. Heck, a Citicar weighed less than that. For that matter, how
about the Mini-EVergreen* EV from the 1990s, which weighed (weighs?)
330kg (725lb) without batteries?
I suspect that like many similar efforts, their real purpose is to attract
investors :
"The company is currently seeking investors to take the alé into
production."
"FuelVapor Technologies Inc. is now an 'Eligible Business Corporation'
meaning that investors can now take advantage of a 30% tax credit on their
entire investment."
"Minimum investment is currently $5,100 Canadian."
Hang on to your wallet!
===
*The Mini-EVergreen may be going back into production. Regrettably my
German, never very good, is getting rustier and I can't quite figure out what's
going on from the webpage : http://www.comminication.com/index.htm -
Maybe someone with better German skills can make it out.
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David Roden wrote:
> Obviously, it's another ICE design; I doubt that the
> originator has any interest in making it an EV.
AAAGGNNNTT. Sorry, wrong answer. ;^>
Fuel Vapour Technologies is a local (Maple Ridge, BC) company and I know for a
fact that there have been discussions with them about hybrid and/or pure EV
versions. There are some of us who'd just like to get our hands on it as a
glider for conversion to EV.
The fuel vapour technology is their present focus, however.
> The curb weight is given as 1400lb. That's reasonably light,
> but hardly spectacular. Heck, a Citicar weighed less than
> that.
No offense, but put a picture of the "alé" next to that of a Citicar and tell
me again that the comparison makes any sense ;^> This car can and does handle
highway speeds (++), and actually handles and brakes, and looks awesome... the
Citicar, well, it most any modern NEV would put it to shame.
> I suspect that like many similar efforts, their real purpose
> is to attract investors :
>
> "The company is currently seeking investors to take the "alé" into
> production."
Well, yes, they are seeking investors to get into production, as they openly
state. I don't think they are taking deposits on non-existent vehicles, etc.
or doing anything particularly shady or suspect. The people behind this
venture are respectable local business people (one of the guys owns the garage
where a friend of mine gets his vehicles, including his EV, serviced).
I have no vested interest in this venture (other than wanting an "alé"
glider... ;^), but think David's suggestion that they, like any startup seeing
investors to move forward, must therefore be a group of con artists is a bit
out of line.
Cheers,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
On 12 Jul 2007 at 22:04, Roger Stockton wrote:
> [I] think David's suggestion that they, like any startup
> seeing investors to move forward, must therefore be a group of con artists
> is a bit out of line.
Sorry ... after years of seeing these startups come and go, with most of them
being little more than (attempted) investor magnets, I tend to be pretty
cynical. You obviously are closer to these folks than I am, so i defer to your
judgement until I see further evidence one way or the other.
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Hi Peter,
thanks for taking the time to reply. The motor is a induction motor with
a starter cap and no brushes, so I would have to use some sort of
chopper to make it work. I guess I could use a simple circuit 60Hz
chopper, but that would probably be inefficient and it may draw high
starting currents. The motor is rated 115V AC 2A, is more than twice as
large and more than twice as heavy when compared to the 12V Bosch
cooling blower I use right now. I don't think I am going through all the
efforts to get it installed and a chopper built. I guess the solution of
finding/adapting a simple motor controller to the pack voltage is easier.
Markus
Peter VanDerWal schrieb:
I do have a 110V blower that is very powerful, but found that its a
small single phase AC motor so thats too much effort.
Does it have brushes? If so then it's probably a universal motor.
Universal motors are basically a Series wound motor optimized to run on
AC, but they will also run on DC just fine.
I'm guessing that you already know this, but figured I'd point it out just
in case.
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www.reliance.com have a 100kw (150 hp i think) i was looking into it also to
keep the weight low you could put the batt's under the truck deck
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Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. I was trying to figure out how
recharging from full discharge could take anything less than the full
rated capacity.
Rob
On Jul 11, 2007, at 5:37 AM, compton wrote:
The energy hasn't disappeared due to Peukert, you just can't get to
it.
Discharging a lead acid battery causes the formation of lead
sulphate which
is an insulator. Discharging at higher currents tends to make the
reaction
take place mostly at the surface of the plates, so you can
litterally 'wall
up' active material behind an insulating layer of lead sulphate. If
you
leave the battery to 'rest' the charge will diffuse from inside the
plate
and 're-charge' the surface layer somewhat, which is the famous
lead acid
'recovery'. If you increase the ratio of surface area to volume of the
plates then you can minumise the Peukert effect and this is exactly
what a
Hawker or Optima is doing. The ultimate example was the Bolder TMF
(Thin
Metal Film).
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Ah yes, the quintessential Aussie automotive icon, the ute. The "Work
Hard, Play Hard" boys toy.
They're pretty heavy at around 1600+kg (3500lb) but could carry the
1/3 lead required. I'm not sure I've heard of one been converted
though. I think some might consider the very idea sacrilegious! Mmm,
food for thought though.
http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/action/vehicleentry?vehicleid=15
http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/ContentServer?cid=1137384216525&pagename=Page&c=DFYPage
If you ever come back this way Peter and happen to be passing though
BrizVegas I'd be very keen to give you the electric-echo experience!
:-)
On 7/10/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I just spent a couple weeks down under and noticed that Australia has a
large number of what are probably the perfect conversion candidates.
I think they call them "Utes".
For us Yanks, imagine a modern day version of an El Camino. Small pickup
trucks with car like styling; low to the ground, small frontal area,
aerodynamic shape. They even have extended cab versions.
I don't know what kind of load capabilty they have, but it's got to be
better than your average car.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--
Shaun
www.electric-echo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter,
Let me explain in a little more detail, the Evette weighs about a 1000lbs
without batteries,it will bold up to 40 orbital batteries at about 40lbs a
piece, thats about 1600lbs.Thats a ratio of 1.6/1, and a total weight of
2600lbs. Electric conversions that can hold 40 orbitals ,will be 2000lbs or
more,thats a total weight of 3600lbs or more. Agree or disagree?
-----Original Message-----
>From: Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Jul 11, 2007 8:25 PM
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: RE: conversion question
>
>Your insistance that the Evette is the perfect EV is what is bringing out
>the nay sayers.
>The Evette is cool, but it's not perfect.
>The few advantages it has simply don't make that much difference in
>practical terms and the disadvantages are pretty glaring.
>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: Michael Wendell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>Sent: Jul 11, 2007 11:34 AM
>>>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>>Subject: RE: conversion question
>>>
>>>
>>>> In your dreans. The EVette not only maneuvers at low
>>>> speeds, it turns very well at higher speeds as well.
>>>
>>>want to prove that statement? if so, my offer still stands. attend an
>>> SCCA
>>>autocross. if you can finish in the top 50% i'll gladly pay your entry
>>> fee.
>>>
>>>sorry, the opinion of some local newspaper reporter, or your own
>>> exclamation
>>>that it's fun to drive won't convince me that it actually handles well.
>>>
>>>m.
>>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> PeoplePC Online
>> A better way to Internet
>> http://www.peoplepc.com
>>
>>
>
>
>--
>If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
>junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
>wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
>legalistic signature is void.
>
________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com
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Paul,
One day I noticed that my pre-charge bulb wouldn't go out. My go-pedal was
stuck slightly depressed causing this. Unhook your potbox wire and see if it
goes out. If not, then the problem is something else.
Also, before you sell your broken controller, I sent my blown Curtis to
Flight Systems in PA and they did a superior job rebuilding it for only
$500.00. Their website is www.fsip.com.
Rich A.
From: "Paul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 3:23 PM
Subject: Curtis 1221B - help!
The old Curtis 1221b in my buggy died a flaming death so I had to install
a new (used) one. The newer 1221B doesn't seem to precharge, my 7.5 watt
light bulb precharge resistor sits there with a full 130 volts across it.
Basic specs:
1221b replacing previous one with no 120 volt system changes.
12 volt system is currently off and disconnected (no interference here)
A single Albright SW200 contactor is used on the 120 volt positive lead to
the controller
A KUEP (150 VDC) relay controls ksi input (controller B+ to relay to ksi)
The above 2 relays are both powered by ignition + (and have been verified
to be off)
The 7.5 watt precharge light bulb is across the contactor
So, I replace the dead 1221b with the other one I had and wire everything
up. I screw in the precharge bulb and it lights full brightness. 2 minutes
later its still at full brightness (precharge took around 20 seconds with
the previous 1221b.) I measure the voltage across the open contactor and
it reads 130 volts (matches the pack voltage to within 1 volt.)
I'm going to go out and start checking everything again today, but I did
that last night and didn't find anything obvious. Any ideas on what I
should check would be appreciated.
I'll check my e-mail regularly while I'm studying the problem. 2 tests
that come to mind are pulling a motor lead off and seeing if the
controller still doesn't precharge (if it does its likely internally
shorted) and trying a higher wattage light bulb in case the older
controller had an overly high value input cap bleeder resistor.
Thanx,
Paul "neon" Gooch
_________________________________________________________________
http://newlivehotmail.com
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Hmm, old landrovers are not only rare, but desired by collectors, so
the prices are outrageous. I guess a jeep cherokee would work, except
as everyone says you want your donor to be something worth putting
money into, and I'd rather put money into a Yugo than a chyrsler
product. It seems that if you can address the GVW issue, a subaru is
ideal -- mostly what ski bums drive anyway. And you can get a donor
for under $1000 easy. A series DC motor drive system should be more
like $10k for a conversion -- okay, maybe $15k when you include labor
and such. The only issue is weight (and keeping the batteries warm,
which isn't that hard). Something that might be easier is a extended
cab toyota 4x4 truck. A bit harder to come by than a subaru, but you
could easily handle the GVW and you can sort of cram 4 people in
it..... And once you put all the batteries in there, you solve the
problem of pickups handling lousy in the snow.
Z
On 7/12/07, patrick DonEgan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
How about one of those old Land Rover Ranger Rover
from 20 or more years ago...
Like they use out on the Safari of Africa ;)
On 7/12/07, Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Eco Performance wrote:
>
> > I live in the rockies and feel there is a market for
> > functional EV's. I dubbed them MUEV's (mountain
> > utilityEV). What I picture is something that can seat
> > 4 people, a dog, and some gear, all-wheel drive, and
> > have a good enough range and top speed to suit all us
> > ski bums with 20+ mile commutes to our jobs as
> > servants to the wealthy.
>
> > So far we've procured a donor Saab 900 and have been
> > crunching the numbers on what it will take to make it
> > fly. Our price tag is looking awful close to $30k,
> > not taking into account numerous problems we're bound
> > to have. I don't want to make toys for rich people, I
> > want to help out those who need it and make a modest
> > dent on emissions.
> >
> > I'm asking if you guys had any ideas on how to make
> > this affordable and how you'd design it in our
> > situation.
>
> It's difficult to make much of any suggestion without knowing what sort
> of top speed suits you, and what sort of range you need (20mi charging
> at each end, or 40mi roundtrip?).
>
> I'd suggest ditching the Saab and instead looking at something like a
> Jeep or similar. It will be easier to do, probably cheaper, and more
> likely to meet your targets. That said, it will be *very* difficult to
> come up with an EV that can carry 4 adults and some cargo and still be
> legal with enough battery onboard to deliver a solid 20mi range at speed
> over hilly terrain in cool temperatures. Or at least it will be if you
> don't have the budget for Li-Ion batteries.
>
> A Jeep may not have the GVWR to handle a full passenger load + the
> battery pack, so you might end up looking at an extended cab/crew cab
> pickup instead. A Unimog conversion would be the coolest ski bum
> transport imaginable and would have the payload capacity to handle the
> job, but a good chunk of your budget would be eaten up just purchasing
> the donor (though if you can locate one with a dead engine it might not
> be too bad).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
--
Patrick Ira Donegan
TigerBody Electric Vehicles
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