EV Digest 7018
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Another, fairer comparison
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Passive (Parallel/Serial) Balancing
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Ideal EV configuration for my situation?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Another, fairer comparison
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Blower on Motor
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Ideal EV configuration for my situation?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Passive (Parallel/Serial) Balancing
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Efficiency of lead acid batteries
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: High Speed Electric Winch
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: conversion question
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Wayland Invt'l, KillaCycle on the road
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Efficiency of lead acid batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Passive (Parallel/Serial) Balancing
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Speed Reducers in the Nose
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Speed Reducers in the Nose
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Ampabout, Long Distance WAS: Ping!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: powering 12v cooling fan from pack voltage
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Ampabout, Long Distance WAS: Ping!
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Ideal EV configuration for my situation?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) driving cycle standards in USA
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) One question of many
by rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Battery Boxes and Heating
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: driving cycle standards in USA
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: One question of many
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Blower on Motor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: Short Range Battery Pack
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
27) Re: Blower on Motor
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) RE: Another, fairer comparison
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: One question of many
by "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: Battery Boxes and Heating
by "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I wrote a paper on this back in 1996 called "Debunking the Myths of
EVs and Smokestacks" and in it I used BTUs to compare the well to
wheel efficiencies between gas and EVs comparing an Acura to an EV1
http://www.evadc.org/pwrplnt.pdf
Scroll down to Table 5 on Page 5 which shows the comparison. The
equations and sources to figure it all out are shown in Footnotes 21,
22 and 23 on pages 8 and 9.
Chip
On Jul 12, 2007, at 2:40 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: July 11, 2007 10:23:49 PM EDT
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Another, fairer comparison
Peter, I didn't say "fairest", just "fairer" :)
Yes, the next step would be to then add the energy it took to get
the oil out of the ground, shipped the refinery, refined and
transported to the gas station. For electricity, as an example,
add the energy to get the coal out of the ground and transported to
the power plant. Then you'd have true well-to-wheels comparison,
for efficiency at least. Pollution is another calculation. There
are, in the archives, references to a few of these studies.
Bill Dennis
Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
On 7/11/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
But, for a really fairer comparison, you need to determine how
many wh of
coal or oil or gas was burned to create the electricity that
ended up as
213 wh at your car's wheels.
Bill Dennis
If you want a truly fair comparison you also need to account for how
much energy was spent pumping oil out of the ground, refining it,
transporting it, storing it, and finally pumping it into your prius.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm, if you leave the "series connectors in place" and wire them up in
parralel as well, you will short out the batteries and quickly destroy the
pack, and quite possibly the car.
If you remove the series wiring and THEN wire them up in parallel, then
david's comments are correct.
> On 11 Jul 2007 at 8:42, Jim Davis wrote:
>
>> Can I leave the series connectors in place, disconnect the pack, and add
>> parallel connectors to make one huge 12v amp-bucket? Would this pack
>> then
>> naturally balance itself over time?
>
> That will work, but it will take weeks or even months, and the end result
> will be a bunch of pathologically undercharged (and sulfated) batteries.
> Connect them in parallel (best to parallel no more than about 6 if
> possible)
> and then charge them that way with a good, smart automatic charger.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
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--- Begin Message ---
> Is vehicle range a function of voltage, amperage, or both in a DC
> system?
Neither actually.
Range is determined by the amount of, useable, stored energy. And the
speed of the vehicle, and the power required to move the vehicle.
Energy, in our case, is typically measured in Watt Hours. Watt hours
equals volts X Amp Hours.
For a given number of batteries, it doesn't have much effect on range if
you wire them up as one string of 144V or two, parrallel, strings of 72V.
However, for a given amount of power output, running lower voltage
requires higher current. Generally speaking running low voltage and high
current is a little less efficient than high voltage and low current.
So wiring your batteries up as a 72V pack will have /slightly/ less range
than wiring the same batteries up for 144V. Since it's bad for the pack
to run it all the way down (which is the only way you'd see this) you
won't be able to tell the difference in efficiency and the only real
effect will be a slightly shorter lifespan. At least theoretically. Most
people kill their pack due to missmanagement/abuse rather than have them
die from just plain use.
> I'm not sure if I should go with the 72 or the 144 V set. 72
> would definitely be safer, but wouldn't the increased amperage require
> thicker wires?
Yup, and to get the same performance would require a controller with twice
the current rating (pretty much un-available). In fact most 72V
controllers have a LOWER current rating than most 144V controllers.
> I think Zeke's suggestion was very good, and Peter's point about
> "free" not necessarily being "free" is also very valid. I'll have to
> wait for the dealer's specifications first but I'll probably go with a
> Toyota Corolla if we change donors. Let's pull some stats on the 1998
> Toyota Corolla...
> 8th Generation:
> ICE engine: 89kW max. (Aluminum)
> carrying capacity: 1117 lbs max.
> pre-conversion curb weight: 2420lbs
> 165Nm
> 0.31 coefficient drag.
Not to bad, not great, but not bad.
> What do you guys think? Can I manage to build a car with this?
Sure.
> I can also pull the stats on a few other cars as well. I'd prefer to
> keep it to relatively common cars around toronto though. That pretty
> much means japanese hondas or toyotas. There's a few other "common"
> cars, but I see toyota corolla/camry and honda civics the most often
> by far.
Civics are also a good candidate. Most of the Civic conversions get
decent range and efficiency.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I first heard 79% I thought they were crazy but on second thought,
Maybe it IS accurate.
First, that is the energy to get it from the well to the tank. not to
the wheels.
secondly, Since gas has such a high amount of intrinsic energy, as has
been discussed, it is just that no-one has figured out how to get more
than 30% of it to the wheels.
It still seems a little high
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Howdy Folk's,
With the recent discussion on adding a blower to motors that don't have a
built in fan like GE & Prestolite, I use a 120vac vacuum cleaner motor
(Ametek from Rod) wired directly across the motor terminals so I get that
cool winding up effect that sounds futuristic and keeps the motor cool
(after playing with snap-disc thermostats).
( I pulled off the 12V blower since that used too much from the Dc
converter).
Have a renewable energy day,
Mark
_________________________________________________________________
http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=hmtextlinkjuly07
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 12 Jul 2007 at 2:40, Matthew Chan wrote:
> Is vehicle range a function of voltage, amperage, or both in a DC
> system?
Neither. It's all down to battery capacity, measured in Watt-hours; and to
vehicle energy use, conveniently measured in Watt-hours per mile (or km).
Do the math and you'll see that the Watt-hours cancel out, leaving miles or
km.
With lead batteries, the capacity is roughly proportional to battery weight.
One-third of vehicle mass in batteries => decent range, about 40 mi. Half
of vehicle mass in batteries => very good range, 60mi, even 75mi. These are
very rough numbers; they apply to average use and average conversions, and
will vary based on factors listed below.
The energy use is affected by tire rolling resistance, vehicle mass, aero
losses, brake drag, wheel alignment, etc. All other things being equal, the
better the fuel efficiency of the glider as an ICE, the less energy it will
use as an EV.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 12 Jul 2007 at 4:04, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Hmm, if you leave the "series connectors in place" and wire them up in
> parralel as well, you will short out the batteries and quickly destroy the
> pack, and quite possibly the car.
Oops, I didn't catch that little phrase. Good call.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 11 Jul 2007 at 17:41, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Well I'm working from memory here, so perhaps I am wrong, but even it if
> is 1.15 that works out to 87% efficient which is a long way from 71%.
I remember a figure of 1.18 for Saft nicads. That might be the older, non-
recombinant "boilers" though.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 11 Jul 2007 at 13:15, trev scribby wrote:
> I
> started a new yahoo account almost a month ago, its
> almost maxed out. I love the EV list!!
My Yahoo account has an ad on it bragging that they've eliminated the
storage limits. Supposedly I can use as much disk space as I want
(dangerous!). That should be helpful for EVDL members, one reason I've been
recommending Yahoo for reading the list. Are you saying that this is not
true for your account?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
How about rolling a 7000+ EV by turning the pilot shaft of the motor at 25
inch lbs torque wrench in the final gear. It works.
Pushing the EV in neutral, it takes 5.57:1 times the effort or may be 25 x
5.57 = 139.25 inch lbs or 139/12= 11.60 foot lbs. Its like carrying
something that weighs about 12 lbs.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 12:09 AM
Subject: RE: conversion question
> On 10 Jul 2007 at 19:00, Tom S. wrote:
>
> > I can push my car easily with one hand of a level street, I don`t
> > think you can do that with a standard car.
>
> Sure you can, if it's set up right. That's one criterion of a successful
> EV
> conversion.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
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>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The KillaCycle team is about 1/3 of the way to the NEDRA Wayland
Invitational EV Drag Race! We should arrive in Portland this evening
(Thursday.) The spare A123 Systems pack is all charged up, packed
away in the trailer, eagerly waiting to show its stuff in the White
Zombie. Steve Ciciora make a special effort to build and install a
brand new upgraded BMS for it so that John would get the maximum performance.
We are on the border of Wyoming and Utah. Rebecca, the KillaCycle
"Road Princess" is with me and is learning how to drive the rig and
about the care and feeding of the KillaCycle.
Until this point, we have had to regretfully turn down most requests
to display the KillaCycle because we have all been so busy making the
bike go faster (and earning the money to make the bike go faster.)
Now that we have our very own "Road Princess" we can get to bike to
trade shows, alternative energy events, and car shows.
Of course, we all must keep in mind that Rebecca is the KillaCycle
"Road Princess" not to be confused with the original "EV Princess."
We must give full credit (and deservedly so,) to John Wayland for
holding the official title of "EV Princess."
Jim Husted "crowned" John as the EV Princess one year ago in a
semi-private ceremony in a crowded restaurant in Joliet IL. During
the coronation, as John received the title EV Princess, there wasn't
a wet eye in the house. At that moment, and ever since that day, we
all knew that no one deserved the honor of the title "Princess" more
than John. :-)
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
might regenerative braking provide that little loosening of the sulphate
and counter that peukert accumulation so the full battery can be used?
Regen and other forms of opportunity charging do indeed help counter the
Peukert effect. When I had an EV with strong regen, putting in 1 amphour
from braking would give me back 1.5 amphours or so when I resumed driving.
No, it's not over-unity or perpetual motion; but the brief charging
periods raised the pack's voltage, and lowered the pack's internal
resistance. So, you get less voltage sag under load, and so need to draw
less current for a given amount of motor power.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Davis wrote:
Can I balance this string passively, over time?
Can I leave the series connectors in place, disconnect the pack, and add
parallel connectors to make one huge 12v amp-bucket? Would this pack then
naturally balance itself over time?
You can *remove* all the series connections, and *then* reconnect them
all in parallel. The batteries will then tend to self-balance to the
same state of charge (over a period of several days).
You can't leave any series connections in place, or you will get a short
circuit (with appropriate pyrotechnics) when you try to connect them in
parallel.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Lee, I guess my question was a little vague. I understood what Bob meant.
I was just trying to figure out physically what he might be referring to.
About that time, Bob mentioned to me that he had a Swiss-made planetary
gear reducer for some project. It was about the same diameter as the 8"
motor, about 2" thick, and bolted right onto the end of the motor,
giving it a new shaft that had a 5:1 reduction from the motor's own
shaft. Maybe that is what he was referring to?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On the Tropica, the motor is unsprung weight. It resides, however, close
to the pivot point of the rear suspension, so it doesn't move up and down
all that much. With Bob's suggestion, it seems like the motor would move
closer to the to the rear wheel (i.e., more towards the back of the
vehicle). Would this cause more handling problems because the unsprung
motor would be moving up and down further with each bump?
No; I think he was suggesting that the motors should be solidly mounted
to the frame, and connected to the wheels with a half shaft and
universal joints.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ROBERT RICE wrote:
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Bob, we're still getting only the above message. Your computer is
apparently set to send HTML or something besides plain text.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Markus Lorch wrote:
I have a 12V cooling fan to cool my motor... needs 4A on low. As the
fan is just a regular DC motor I was wondering if it would not be
smarter to power it via a small motor controller i.e. like those used
in scooters.
In principle, this will work fine.
In practice, most 12v motors have their negative side grounded to the
case, or if they do bring out both positive and negative wires, have
negligible insulation between them and the case. If you powered them
from your propulsion pack with a non-isolated controller, you could
easily wind up shorting the pack voltage to ground.
As you say, it is hard to find an 80-130vdc input, 12v 4a output
converter. But it is fairly easy to find a 120vac input, 12v 4a output
switchmode power supply. So, you may want to find one that works
adequately on 80-130vdc.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got his message fine? I didn't get that.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 11:28 PM
Subject: Re: Ampabout, Long Distance WAS: Ping!
ROBERT RICE wrote:
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Bob, we're still getting only the above message. Your computer is
apparently set to send HTML or something besides plain text.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
To set the record straight, minimum DC input voltage for AC systems
I know about is:
Siemens - 110 VDC
EVI-200 - 100 VDC
TIM400/600 - 80 VDC.
BRUSA 51x/52x ones - 120 VDC
The drives sure will function at these input voltages, just
performance and efficiency will be very poor, much worse than
at >300 VDC in (or at least >240VDC or so).
So the statement that "you pretty much have to use about 300V worth
of batteries) is not accurate.
Thanks for the additional information, Victor. Lower voltage AC systems
are certainly possible for lower power vehicles. I was responding to the
request for a system for a bigger heavier vehicle (wasn't it a 4500 lbs
Mercedes)? In this case, I don't know of a low voltage AC system that
would work.
You *could* build one that worked -- I built one for my MicroVan using
an 84v pack. But they are not commercially available.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all..
I'm looking for the most recent driving cycle to estimate vehicle
consumption comparable to USA vehicles. Can someone point me to the
right place where to obtain such cycle data ?
I've got the European cycle already in and it looks good for this design.
-Jukka
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/641
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1007
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1009
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1011
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1206
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--- Begin Message ---
I'm new to the list and just bought my first donor car. Good, bad or
other, it is a 95 Dodge Stratus.
It has power steering assist and I'm wondering how hard it will steer
with out this as an EV ?
Rice in ABQ
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--- Begin Message ---
Tehben Dean wrote:
I guess I am trying to find out either what R-value is
recommended or what foam people choose to use?
It's the air that is the real insulator. Foam, fiberglass, bubble-wrap,
etc. are all just ways to package the air that provides your insulation.
The best insulator will have the most air in it. Thus, the lowest
density foam will be the best insulator. This is generally 1 lbs or 2
lbs per cubic foot density. 1 lbs density is very soft; you can easily
wad it up or tear off chunks with your bare hands. 2 lbs density is much
more common; still very soft, but strong enough to use for temporary ice
chests, packing in boxes, etc. 4 lbs density foam is about like balsa
wood; strong enough so you need tools to cut it, and with sufficient
strength to make things out of. Higher density foams are used for
structural purposes, but not generally for insulation.
Styrafoam (styrene) foam is the cheapest and most common. It is weak
mechanically and has low solvent resistance (damaged by almost all
hydrocarbons).
Urethane foams are stronger and resist most solvents. You can get them
in open-cell and closed cell versions.
ABS foam is available, but only in high densities. ABS is usually made
into structures with larger air bubbles or pockets, like "coroplast"
(signboard), which looks like corrugated cardboard but is plastic. It
works reasonably well as insulation, and is quite strong mechanically.
Polyethylene foams are spongy, stretchy, and slippery. "Bubble pack" is
also polyethylene. They have extremely good solvent resistance (almost
nothing attacks it).
In my EVs, I have used styrafoam where it is protected from the elements
by an outside box. About 1" thick 2 lbs density foam has provided all
the insulation I've ever needed. I've used coroplast where there wasn't
enough space for styrafoam, or where I needed more mechanical strength.
And the front battery box in my present EV is made from polyethylene
foam, since it is exposed to the elements and things like transaxle oil.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I did a quick search and found these. Hopefully, these can answer your
questions or lead to some answers. I didn't find a detailed description ,
but it has to be in there somewhere.
Start out at http://www.epa.gov/otaq/sftp.htm This is the government
agency that regulates emmissions at the federal level.
Other links that might help:
http://www.avt.nrel.gov/emis_tour/ftp-75.html
http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/cycles/
http://www.avt.nrel.gov/emis_tour/dynam_body.html#anchor
If these don't help, hopefully someone will have better links.
Dave
From: Jukka Järvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: driving cycle standards in USA
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 17:54:02 +0300
Hi all..
I'm looking for the most recent driving cycle to estimate vehicle
consumption comparable to USA vehicles. Can someone point me to the right
place where to obtain such cycle data ?
I've got the European cycle already in and it looks good for this design.
-Jukka
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/641
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1007
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1009
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1011
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1206
_________________________________________________________________
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507
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--- Begin Message ---
Just taking a guess here, but I'm going to say that
the Stratus starts off as fairly heavy. Add to it a
deeply sloped hood, and you have little space in front
for batteries. (Please tell me it is a stick)...
In my rig, I removed the power assist, and
installed a manual rack. But I had 2220 lbs., and
upped it to 3200 with batteries. Your GVWR should be
inside the door panel. Take that number, subtract
your cargo weight (should be listed in the owner's
manual), and you have pretty close to your vehicle
weight right now.
That should tell you how tough steering will be w/o
power. Also, think of the wheel (width) profile.
Wish I could be of more help,
--- rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm new to the list and just bought my first donor
> car. Good, bad or
> other, it is a 95 Dodge Stratus.
> It has power steering assist and I'm wondering how
> hard it will steer
> with out this as an EV ?
>
> Rice in ABQ
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for
today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Hanson wrote:
With the recent discussion on adding a blower to motors that don't have
a built in fan like GE & Prestolite, I use a 120vac vacuum cleaner motor
(Ametek from Rod) wired directly across the motor terminals so I get
that cool winding up effect that sounds futuristic and keeps the motor
cool (after playing with snap-disc thermostats).
Here's an idea I've been meaning to try (when I get a round tuit :-)
Background: I built a battery charger, and found I needed a fan for
cooling at full power, but not at light load (where it spent many hours
at the end of a charge cycle). I could have added a thermal switch to
power the fan only when needed, but decided to try something different.
I rewound a little shaded pole fan motor, so instead of a 120vac 0.1amp
winding, it had a 1.2vac 10amp winding (just 6 turns of wire). I wired
it in series with the transformer primary. The fan ran normally, at full
speed when the charger was drawing full current. But as the current
tapered off, the fan slowed down as well (shaded pole motors slip a lot
at reduced voltage, even though the frequency is fixed).
So here's my idea: Use a transformer to sample motor current, and
convert it into fan current. The more current your traction motor draws,
(the hotter it gets), the faster its cooling fan runs.
Take the transformer out of an old switchmode power supply. Bend a flat
copper buss bar into a "U" and fit it through the core. (If there's no
room, you can remove all the windings first, and just keep the core and
bobbin.) Connect this buss bar in series with one of the wires between
your PWM controller and motor.
Put a bridge rectifier and filter capacitor on one of the secondaries of
the transformer. (Or add your own new secondary; it will only be a dozen
turns or so). Connect this to your DC fan motor.
The motor current varies, of course, from 0 to maximum. This current
transformer converts motor current into fan current. Normally, a current
transformer's turn ratio determines the current ratio; to get 500 amps
of motor current to make 5 amps of fan motor current, you'd need a
1-turn primary and 100 turn secondary. But here, the core will saturate
before you get that kind of power; the power output will self-limit.
Example: The transformer is out of a 300 watt PC power supply that ran
at 60 KHz. Your EV's controller is switching at 20 KHz (1/3rd the
frequency). So, the most this transformer will deliver is about 1/3 of
300w = 100 watts -- that's 12v at 8amps.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You offered some great ideas. Instead of buying brand new batterries just
to be destroyed by my lack of knowledge and experience I will look for
some used PSU batteries. My next question is "How many Ah's do I need for
a small car to travel 10 miles on 144v in moderate driving conditions?"
Just looking for round numbers. Looking for 80% DOD I want the lowest Ah
that will do this but don't know where to start at. Maybe an average of 50
mph. What might that Ah equate to in 48v?(I know my top speed will drop
drastically)
Thanks,
Paul
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I'm ready to buy batteries now for my conversion... 77 datsun 280z...
> 48v forklift motor... I want a short range EV with lots of pickup...
> I think I also want AGM's... I would like to know what is the
> cheapest pack I can put together with greater than 140v and range for
> 5 to 10 miles...
> I don't want sophisticated. Just cheap and fairly light, small.
That is a formula for a very short battery life. If that is acceptable
(for example, you just want a car to race on weekends, then I would
suggest some cheap flooded combination marine/starting batteries. They
won't last long (maybe 100 cycles), but are cheap and will deliver the
high currents for a high "fun" factor.
AGMs to do the same thing will cost 2-3 times more. They can last twice
as long *if* you use a good charger and BMS (battery management system).
If you use a cheap charger and no BMS, the AGMs will also die in 100-200
cycles.
Perhaps the cheapest way to get low cost and still be able to draw high
currents for fast acceleration is to get *used* AGM batteries. The ones
that are used in large UPS power supplies are often automatically
replaced every 2-3 years, and available surplus for perhaps 1/2 to 1/4
of their cost new. You could use them with simple chargers and a very
primitive BMS. They would die quickly, but at least are cheap.
A range of only 5-10 miles and fast driving means you are discharging
the batteries in perhaps 15 minutes at most. This is really the forte of
things like the BB600 nicad aircraft starting batteries. You can
sometimes find them surplus for very good prices. The downside is that
they require a *lot* of work to rejevante, install, and maintain. But if
you have lots of time and little money, they would make a very fast
short-range EV! And, they have the potential to last a long time -- they
are more likely to die from screw-ups and abuse than from being worn out.
> I was told by Jim that 144v might get me decent performance with
> advanced brushes.
144v is possible on a 48v forklift motor; but it will require some
rebuilding and finesse, which will cost time/money. Don't expect to just
twist the brush assembly and go.
How successful you will be with your project depends on just how cheaply
you want to do it, and how much performance you expect. You won't get
silk-purse performance out of sows-ear parts unless you know a *lot*
about what you are doing, and are willing to put a *lot* of time in it.
I suppose some people might say, "John Wayland is driving an old Datsun
with a forklift motor and a bunch of little batteries; see how well he's
doing?" But this totally ignores the *huge* amount of time, money, and
talent that has gone into his car!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7/12/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
So here's my idea: Use a transformer to sample motor current, and
convert it into fan current. The more current your traction motor draws,
(the hotter it gets), the faster its cooling fan runs.
Take the transformer out of an old switchmode power supply. Bend a flat
copper buss bar into a "U" and fit it through the core. (If there's no
room, you can remove all the windings first, and just keep the core and
bobbin.) Connect this buss bar in series with one of the wires between
your PWM controller and motor.
Just a thought, it might be possible to use the voltage drop across
the field winding to run a fan directly - a well isolated (plastic)
low voltage fan might work well, depending on the motor.
Using a current transformer may not be suitable for some vehicles (my
own included) which reach "full on" (100% PWM) fairly quickly - then
the fan would be doing nothing while the motor is at full power.
And of course both ideas suffer from the problem that it's not as
effective at cooling as a continuously running fan - the motor is not
being cooled off at all whilst coasting or stopping, so the duty cycle
will be reduced (or you'll overheat it, more likely).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The Department of energy determined and posted that it takes ~12kwh to
> refine a gallon of gas.
Do they actually use electricity to refine gasoline? Or is it the energy
equivalent of 12kwh in
heat that is used?
If they really use the electricity directly that is absolutely astounding. That
would be the rough
equivalent of 50 mpg and skip the oil extraction, transport and refining all
together! And they
say there is not enough electricity generation capacity. So if this is true why
do we need to use
the gasoline at all? Just use the electricity directly. And by using the
gasoline we are
effectively doubling the expenditure of energy, GHG, etc. for absolutely no
reason other than the
convenience and concentration of the liquid fuel.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It will be unacceptable. The steering effort on a Stratus is quite high
without power assist. Just try turning the wheel at a standstill with the
key on/engine off. You may be able to rig up electric power steering, but
you'd be much better off with a better donor.
Lon Hull,
Portland, OR
----- Original Message -----
From: "rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 8:21 AM
Subject: One question of many
I'm new to the list and just bought my first donor car. Good, bad or
other, it is a 95 Dodge Stratus.
It has power steering assist and I'm wondering how hard it will steer with
out this as an EV ?
Rice in ABQ
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In my EVs, I have used styrafoam where it is protected from the elements
by an outside box. About 1" thick 2 lbs density foam has provided all
the insulation I've ever needed. I've used coroplast where there wasn't
enough space for styrafoam, or where I needed more mechanical strength.
And the front battery box in my present EV is made from polyethylene
foam, since it is exposed to the elements and things like transaxle oil.
Lee do you not have battery heaters?
How do your EV's perform in the winter? Minnesota gets pretty cold... right?
--
Tehben
'90 Toyota 4x4 Pickup
'hElix EV'
evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225
--- End Message ---
